VAT & Tipping on bar and restaurant bills

[christianpfc]

VAT on bar and restaurant bills

In September I went to a bar in Silom Soi 4 with a friend and was suprised to find 10% service charge and 7% VAT added to the bill. Now a restaurant bill from September fell into my hands and I was surprised to find 10% service charge and 7% VAT (when I paid, I only paid notice to the service charge).

I know that some venues add 10% service charge (and I go there only one time), but adding VAT is new to me.

Is there no law that all prices have to be net? Does this occur in other places as well?

[gaymandenmark]

Yes it occurs in other places, but I have never seen it in a bar and not in Soi 4. What is the name of the bar?

I have only seen it in restaurants and although I don't like the added 7% VAT, I don't have problems with the service charge if it is openly and cleary written in the menu.

[Neal]

The restaurant bill of 10% service is for those who are cheap and don't leave tips and VAT is required to be charged in restaurants but I never heard of vat at a bar only. Yes, what is the name of the bar?

[joe552]

The restaurant bill of 10% service is for those who are cheap and don't leave tips

How can a restaurant know whether you will or will not leave a tip when they present a bill? Sorry, DaBoss, you're mistaken on this one.

[Neal]

No Joe, I am not. There are a good many people that leave 10 and 20 baht tips and just feel that is satisfactory as well as some that leave nothing. The 10% service charge is to insure that the service staff gets reasonable tips. Surely if you would like to leave more so that it equals 15% or 20% you can but 10% is pretty much a minimum acceptable tip in most restaurants.

And if you think I or anyone else is wrong, rather than saying we are wrong, how about explaining why you think a person is wrong AND what you believe is correct?

[Yraen]

Whoa ! This discussion revolves around the assumption that the whole world follows the US-ian practice of manditorily leaving tips for the waiting-staff. In the US, this practice occurs because wait-staff do not get an adequate wage and have to make up the difference through their tips. It is also the reason why (mostly) US wait-staff pay close attention to their customers. (Though I refused one guy in Hawaii because he was rude, arrogant, useless and much more interested in looking down the blouse of his fellow waitress.)

Most of the world works on the basis that a tip is given to a waiter who provides good service. And it is normally given to THAT waiter NOT "the waiters". (If tips are 'pooled', the lazy or inefficient waiters gain from the efforts of the 'good' waiters. I ask whether that is a 'fair' result?) It also removes from the business owner to the customer the need to enhance an inadequate wage (or perhaps provide an 'excuse' to further minimise wages).

IMO, any establishment charging a "service fee", regardless of the standard of service, is likely to finish up with no tips at all. Because that is what a "service fee" is - it is a levied tip, regardless of standard of service. It is also likely that the service staff will tend to go slack because they know they will get a tip whether they work for it or not. (In the case of a now-defunct restaurant in Bangkok, the staff got to the point where chatting among themselves was a much higher priority.)

In Australia, good service = tip, no service = no tip. Simple and no argument. By law, wages must be adequate.
In Thailand, I recognise that (generally) wages are inadequate (the new minimum wage being ignored by most employers) and I do give tips to service personnel who have given adequate-to-good service (in whatever form ;) )

Again, IMO, the onus is on the employer to train service staff on how to provide attentive/good service and the standard of service the owner expects in his/her business. This will usually ensure a constant flow of tips. BUT, the moment an owner gets lazy or greedy and levies a service charge then I have no obligation to pay any tip. Nor do I need to go back to that business if I disagree with the owner's decision. :blackeye:

[gaymandenmark]

Wow we have had this diskussions many times.
What you are used to tip or not to tip in one country, has nothing to do what the custom is in another country.
The labour laws and agreements are different, in some places tips is not a part of the agreed salary, and in other placed the tip is a part of the salary but also an importent part of the paycheck.

It is quite easy to find out, reading some guidebooks, dont you do that when travelling to another country?

If you dont understand that there is a difference in tipping in different countries, I find that your are a big ignorant.

Well, assuming I'm satisfied, I tip at least 10% on the bill (more it the menu specifies a higher service charge) and then I tip the individual waiter on top - and I follow that worldwide.

I'm sorry if my practice upsets anybody but I prefer it to the suggestions of reading up on the minimum wage and labour laws in every country I visit and adjusting my tipping practices accordingly - I can't believe some people actually DO that.

:occasion9:

[dorayme]

Tipping seems to be more of a foreign convention. Most Thai don't seem to top and tipping from Thai does not seem to be expected. I also encountered a now-defunct restaurant in Bangkok that levied a service charge when service was poor (as well as the food). I think most but not all restaurants do distribute the service to the employees. If I get good service I always tip the waiter in his/her hand.

[firecat69]

I should be the one who decides what the tip is and I should make sure that the service person gets the tip. In Thailand many times the service charge goes to the establishment and not the waiter etc.

Most Thais are astounded at what Westerners tip and think we are nuts. That being said I always leave 10% for adequate service and more if the service was special. Depending on the level of the restaurant I easily go to 15% or more because there I usually encounter well trained wait staff and I am happy to tip them more.

[bruce_nyc]

Our Thai boyfriend handled the money on our trip. He also handled the paying of the check, the tipping, and even whether or not to buy drinks for the waitresses or mamasans who asked us to.

Watching how he handled the money was very interesting. He seems to have a rule that tips were a flat rate. Cocktail waitresses always got 20 baht. Restaurant waitresses always got 40 baht. Very helpful and friendly mamasans always got 100 baht. The tip amount was not a percentage of the check.

We assume that this is how Thai people tip. It is, at least, how he tips.

By the way, it was also fun to watch him deal with people asking us to buy them a drink. They would always ask me to buy the drink first. And I would point to him and say, "Up to him." If the person was entertaining us and we were enjoying their company, he would agree to buy them a drink. But if they were just being pushy and asking for a drink for no reason, when asked he would simply smile.... and not say a word. That smile without any yes or no said it all. It was as if by his smile he was saying look I'm Thai and you're Thai, and I know your game... and no, we are not going to buy everyone in the bar a drink. :-)

He also taught us NOT to leave the tip in the folder the check comes in. He said that if you just leave the tip in the folder, then the tips are pooled. If you want to tip your server, hand the tip to him or her directly.

Also, If there were two servers waiting on us, they both deserved equal tips. He would give 40 baht to each one... putting it directly into their hand.

[BonTong]

One explanation for this practice is the substantial increases in the minimum wage which occurred earlier this year. Employers are adding 10% service charge to mitigate against the major labour cost increases they have incurred. i.e The staff got an enforced pay rise and the management are clawing some of it back from their tips. Also, as I understand it, VAT has to be accounted for on the total bill, including service, hence the separate addition on the bill. Keeps the paperwork straight and gets more money for the business.

Expect more of the same when the BKK minimum wage of 300Bt per day goes nationwide in January. e.g in Chiang Mai that's a further 20% increase in labour costs, on top of almost 40% earlier this year! Whilst personally I don't agree with the practice, and I know at least one venue in Chiang Mai that has seen quite a backlash from implementing this, life is not easy for gay business owners these days either.



He also taught us NOT to leave the tip in the folder the check comes in. He said that if you just leave the tip in the folder, then the tips are pooled. If you want to tip you're server, hand the tip to him or her directly.
Good advice except I'd always leave something in the folder too as the pooled tips usually get shared with the kitchen staff etc. That way saves face and doesn't make you look cheap. Also, be discreet; I know some places that will fire staff instantly if they are seen pocketing tips directly.

[Patexpat]

I'm sure everyone must realise that restaurants and bars MUST pay VAT to the revenue department on products they sell. In addition if they add a service charge then VAT is applicable to that too.

What is annoying of course is when the VAT is added but then not declared .. it's simply an extra 7% revenue to the owner. If this annoys you demand a VAT receipt (which you are entitled to). It should contain the companys registration number and VAT number and who purchased the goods....

mischievously yours ....

[Khor tose]

Well, assuming I'm satisfied, I tip at least 10% on the bill (more it the menu specifies a higher service charge) and then I tip the individual waiter on top - and I follow that worldwide.

This is also my practice. Except when the tip is levied and the service was poor. Yes, I pay the 10% but if it is a place I go to often, I tell the owner/manager how unhappy I am, and if it is a place I seldom go or a new place, I don't go there again. Traveling around and about, it has been my experience that places with poor service usually don't have a long life expectancy, and when you ask the locals for a good place to eat (which i do everywhere I go) they do not recommend these places.

[lukylok]

I agree with Bruce : when in Chiang Mai, I let my thai friend do the tipping, and it is more a fixed amount, 20, 40 bahts depending of the kind of place. In thai for thai "eating places", he never tips.
In Myanmar last year, the burmese guide was complaining of the US tourists who started to "corrupt" the people in giving money fror any service when none was expected.
I agree that you must behave as is the norm in the country. But I don't think there was much tipping in Thailand before the Vietnam war.....
We all have a bias regarding tipping depending on the usage in the country we come from.

I very happily tip, and from the smiles which welcome me everywhere, I must not be "Kiniao". But "il faut raison garder".

[pong]

and now back to the original Q of der Crhis:
1.this practice is as old as there is VAT in TH (aorund the mid 90ies or so-of I remember correctly), was more prevalent then, but seems to wane. It also flatly negates how VAT (value ADDED) is accounted for. IN fact IF it happens, its only in clearly farang-aimed rip-off places. But then I thought our dear Christ was trying to get the refund on VAT that is for tourists?
2.service charge is moreorless same-I see it only in mid/hi-class places mostly aiming at farang/tourists. Places aiming less high may have some tipbox on the counter or so. Interesting is also that ''minimum''tip that is often quoted in m2m massage places: for the Thai that simply means also thats the flat rate, and sometimes even that ''minimum'' is ignored in the Thai writing.
3.bruce's helper is not THE example of how all Thai would handle it-but it certainly is a more educated one. As with most things Thai; there is no written rule of gold. Instead of that smile you can say : ''oh-ghat-nah''=later, maybe.

[Neal]

VAT is not the same as a service charge. VAT goes to the government and service charge goes to the staff. The service charge was designed because of those who choose to leave nothing or a minute amount. Sure, I don't like paying 10% because when confronted with very good service I don't like having to figure out how much extra is a proper amount that I need to add and in my opinion lesss than 10% is to small unless the service sucked. The average meal here is 200 - 300 baht so in ONLY my opinion, if I can't affors to leave some people a lousey 20 - 30 baht to provide me with decent service, I should stay home and cook, serve, make extra errands and clean up and wash dishes after myself. MY opinion.

[corky]

In September I went to a bar in Silom Soi 4 with a friend and was suprised to find 10% service charge and 7% VAT added to the bill.

I am a regular patron of many places in Silom Soi 4 and I have never been charged a service charge or VAT on the bill. The bills have always been the menu price with no extras added. I always give a tip directly to my waiter.

So, christianpfc, to repeat the question from gaymandenmark and DaBoss, please tell us the name of the bar/restaurant where this happened?

I am now reading this column on several different threads and while always have been a guest, decided to weigh in because it is so humourous.

First we have Mr. ChristianPFC that will not even throw out a 1/2 bottle of water and who notes buying a 10 baht piece of fruit, upset about the gratuity at a reataurant. Christian? Do not worry as this does not apply to stands on the sidewalks so it won't break your bank. Also bars are not supposed to charge vat as they don't claim 90% of thier income anyway!

On another board Mr GayButton is screaming about paying 10% at a place called Sunrise Taco where the average meal is about 200 baht. Oh my! 20 baht.
He talks about upscale restaurants where he wants to decide for himself how much to leave and the answer is that he wants to leave 20 baht if that much. See he does not go to fancy restaurants in his pajama shorts and clogs or even pay for the bills as he waits for people to come to town and offer to take him out and pay for it so why are you crying about the tip?

I have read with interest the 50 baht and 100 baht some of you will pay massage boys on the beach to get your willies tickled and the couple of hundred baht you will pay for someone in your room to fuck you like a silly girl but you have such a hard time paying a 10% tip.

This has got to be the funniest bunch I have ever seen. The ones who have some money to spare don't complain and the ones who should not be here in Thailand as they have no money are all crying about a 10% tip when their bills for meals are less than 70 baht. Their big 10% tip would be 7 baht. This thread is a pisser.

Paragraph deleted Flaming DaBoss

[Up2U]

I've got no problem with VAT or tip being added so long as the policy is clearly stated and there are no surprises at check bin time. If the service sucks then the tip is taken away and the manager is told why. What I like about Thailand is in stores or when buying an appliance or car, you know the displayed price includes the VAT.

[Neal]

It is? I never knew that and I have purchased many appliances in Home Works. I wonder why like in USA they do not say this is for this and this for vat and this for delivery and here is the total? I also wonder then why only appliances. :dontknow: Gets confusing.

[newalaan]

silly girl but you have such a hard time paying out a 10% tip.
The silly girl here would appear to be you. It's not about the amount of money, it is about the principal of being taken for a fool or sneakily/blatantly being ripped off. I, like most here, guarantee to over-tip really for bar trips. When I buy a beer for Bt75 or Bt80, i give Bt100. thats 35% to 25% tip if you want to be pedantic. I think most of us do that. But also if i buy a beer at say Happy Place, the Bt150 bill also gets a Bt20 tip, but that's still more than 10%.


The service charge was designed because of those who choose to leave nothing or a minute amount How can you know that is what it was 'designed' for? It is merely an assumption on your behalf. It is nothing more than a sneaky way of paying the restaurant staff their rightful level of wages. It's an excuse to pay staff LESS for their basic wage. Nothing more. Any establishment can choose to price their product any way they like, but there is the upfront honest transparent way, or the sneaky taking the piss way. If a steak is ┬г20 plus service and vat to become say ┬г25, i would much rather have the menu priced at ┬г25, does it mean i would not eat there becuse their price was ┬г25 as opposed to nexct door where it was ┬г20 plus vat and service? no of course i would still eat there, but i would probably come back and feel i have not had the 'wool pulled over my eyes'. I dont for a second believe a service charge was introducted because customers don't tip...that is ridiculous, it is designed to get as MUCH of your cash as possible without your having a choice. I too like to decide what tip to give not have it 'forced' upon me. There is also NO evidence whatsoever that all of the service charge goes to the staff on top of their salaries, none! I suspect every establishment 'works' things to suit themselves. Anyway most resuarants have part time staff who are in no position to question what happens with 'service charge' income.

[Neal]

NewAlaan catch up with me please. I never said anything about a bar except that I thought it was not correct for a bar to insist on a 10% sevice charge or vat. I do not condone it nor would I patronize one who did charge it. I said that the vat would not be claimed on 90% and that I have never heard of vat or forced tip at a bar. Please stay on the correct page.

As far as a restaurant, well here in Pattaya you and many others do pay probably pay a decent tip but service charges were instituted for those who tip an incredibally small amount. I have spoken with many restaurant owners and know this for a fact. I have also witnessed generous people (haha) leaving a 5 baht tip on a $20 USD bill.
5 baht! OK it is possibly not the norm and I don't know the percentage but it does happen pretty regularly.

Personally I don't care. When I order water from the water truck or a gas tank, automatically I am next on the list even if there were 5 other people before me. When I go to a hotel or restaurant I am treated very well and pleasantly because I treat people with the respect I feel they deserve and the service I get. When I order any type of service at the house I get it quickly and I don't have to wait day after day getting the stalling treatment. Horray for me I am sure you say but you do as you wish and I will do as I wish and we will both experience the level of service that is given. :occasion9:

[UncleTom]

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6043.0.html

"Any person or entity who regularly supplies goods or provides services in Thailand and has an annual turnover exceeding 1.8 million baht is subject to VAT in Thailand."

1.8 million baht = 5,000 Baht per day.
There's a few guys on Gay Romeo that should be charging VAT.
If you ask for a Tax Invoice, perhaps you will be able to claim this back at the airport on your way home.

[Neal]

It was my understanding and maybe I am wrong but I thought that in order to get the VAT back you needed to apply for it at the store AND the place needed to have a sign in the window saying so. Some do and some don't.

[bruce_nyc]

Actually, the more "D" and I think about it, the more we think our Baby (our Thai boyfriend) has it right. ...a flat tip amount based on the type of service --- not based on the cost of what you order.

We've never understood the logic that a tip to a server for service... should be based on a percentage of the price of what we order. Something tells me that the Restaurant Owners Association came up with this ingenious idea a century ago. It works well by effectively making their servers into sales reps who work on commission.

Have you ever asked a server for a recommendation, and how many times do they recommend the most expensive dish on the menu?

The service rendered by delivering me a cheeseburger is roughly the same as when I order the most expensive seafood entree on the menu. It's about the same amount of work to bring me a glass of tap water as it is to bring me a 100 dollar glass of wine. Why should the server get 15 to 20 percent of the cost of that glass of wine? Nobody ever bothers to ask that question.

Since we might spend about 30 dollars on average for a simple typical dinner for 2 of us in Manhattan... and that's about 27 dollars and 50 cents before tax.... It seems to me that a 2 dollar and 50 cents tip per person is more than adequate... no matter what we order, no matter where we dine. That's a 5 dollar tip for 2 people when dining a restaurant.

I've always tipped about 20 percent until now... but I think I'm going to start using this new method. As a side benefit, it sure would be easier to calculate the tip when paying the check. "I don't even need to see the check to leave the tip."

[Neal]

100 baht Bruce is ok by the standards of Thailand. Sure it is not 10% but it is not the 10 or 20 baht I am referring to or the 5 baht I saw one guy leave and I know it had nothing to do with the service. He thought it was adequate.

[naklua]

The restaurant bill of 10% service is for those who are cheap and don't leave tips

Then why is the service charge shown as a separate fee? If one does not have a choice but has to pay the service charge it should be included in the price shown on the menu. The same goes for VAT. Just because it is standard practice in the USA it does not necessarily make sense.
BTW, there are customers not leaving a tip or only a small one because of inferior, maybe rude or even fraudulent (trying to cheat) service.

[naklua]

service charge goes to the staff.

Dream on! I am very sure the service charge normally gets pocketed by the business owner. Even if there was a law to the contrary (and I am sure there is none) it would be most likely ignored. TiT.

[naklua]

100 baht Bruce is ok by the standards of Thailand.

Minimum wage got increased by approx. 40% to 300 THB a DAY. This is mostly for people working in factories, construction sites and so on, i.e. hard physical work. The Thai industry, however, cried out loud and warned of an imminent demise of their competitiveness. On the other hand 100 THB tip for waiting staff is "OK by the standards of Thailand". Get real! It's your standards. Not that you are not entitled to your own standard, but please do not try to make your standard the Thai standard.

[christianpfc]

The place is Spanish on 4 (I didn't post in the OP as I was not sure about legal issues or board rules). (You could argue that it's a restaurant, but it doesn't make any difference for me.)

In this case, writing every expense down comes in handy: 28.09.2012, our drinks were 150 Baht, I planned on leaving 10 Baht tip, but then the bill arrived: 176.60 Baht (150 + 10% service charge = 165; 7% VAT on that), I was so confused, I even forgot to take the 3 Baht change (on 180 Baht) with me! And on top of that, we were sitting on the end to Bearbie and there was a constant stream of smokers in and out! (My poor choice of seating.)

@pong: I spend far below the amounts needed for a VAT refund.

The amounts that I pay for 10% service charge and 7% VAT are negligible compared to the total cost of my holiday, but if the price in the menu is not the final price I have an unwell feeling afterwards.


I'm sure everyone must realise that restaurants and bars MUST pay VAT to the revenue department on products they sell. In addition if they add a service charge then VAT is applicable to that too.
I am well aware of that. But 7/11 must pay VAT as well, and they don't add it on their price that are quoted in the aisles. In 7/11 I get a receipt where the VAT is included in the end price (which is correct by my standards, as it is done in Germany and anywhere else I went so far except Thailand), in some isolated venues I see the price in the menue and then VAT is added. Once they realize that people put up with this, it will spread, and once full coverage over all of the tourist areas is reached, they will start distributing their electricity and water bill to their customers.

The 10% service charge is to insure that the service staff gets reasonable tips.
Because they don't get a resonable salary.

[Neal]

Sorry baby, it is you that needs to check it out. Service charge is just another word for a required tip. If you checked it out you would know. I used to get annoyed because when I went to various hotels and got hit with this 17% service charge I would flip. I still paid it and aid the tip but was angry. Then I started looking into it and all. I do mean all. told me that the service charge was in fact the tip. That's why I stopped tipping in hotels who had a service charge for room service. When they stood there waiting to see if they were going to get a tip I would say, I have been told the service charge goes to you, isn't that correct? Everyone admitted yes. See ya learn something everyday. AND I am sure if employers stole thier tips, they would all leave.

PS I guess you have not been in fancier restaurants where they have mandatory tips. They don't call it "tip" ojn the bill, it's called service charge. Go check it out.

[christianpfc]

I vaguely remember 17% tax added when booking hotels on agoda, just before the payment, but that was explained as tax. (A similar case: you see their price per night, then you go to check out, and: surprise!) I don't know if this is just a coincidence (that it's 17%).

Just checked, the "hotel tax and service fee" on agoda (added at the end) is 17.7%, which is just 10% + 7% + 7% on the 10%.

I know the difference between service charge and VAT.

(OMG! That means 800 Baht at Penguin house walk-in is still cheaper than 722 Baht for the same room on agoda + 128 Baht hotel tax and service fee! And I paid only 750 Baht because I stayed 5 nights! Happy, happy, happy! I will gloat over this saving the entire weekend!)

This is an occasion for smileys:

:wav: :party :ura1: :ura1: :ura1: :ura1: :ura1: :ura1: :ura1: :ura1: :ura1:

(Neal, you made my weekend! You are lucky to be far away from me, otherwise I would hug you.)

[bruce_nyc]

You mean you don't have to pay VAT etc if you "walk in", Christian ...?

As for restaurant dining...

Yeah. $2.50 per customer, per waitress/waiter.

So, two of us dining..... two waiters serving us...

That's a $10 tip on probably a $50 check max ( pre- tax - You're supposed to tip on the pre- tax amount anyway. )

That's still 20%.

We don't spend $300 on dinner anyway. And none of us drink - or very rarely.

If we go to somewhere less expensive, it would work out to be even MORE than 20%.

But in my opinion, it's not justified to tip 2 or 3 or 4 times as much....just because the place is that much more expensive.

Plus, usually the more upscale the place is, the more servers are waiting on you. So it would likely work out to be more in the end anyway.

I'm going to start doing this in Manhattan and I'll report back on the reactions I get from servers and from friends. :-)

... 800 Baht at Penguin house walk-in is still cheaper than 722 Baht for the same room on agoda + 128 Baht hotel tax and service fee! And I paid only 750 Baht because I stayed 5 nights! Happy, happy, happy! I will gloat over this saving the entire weekend!...


[youtube:lc2e8pqg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PAktnGlF30[/youtube:lc2e8pqg]

[Neal]

Christian not sure what you are on about now.
When you check into most hotels that offer more than a one star it is explained that charges are the room rate plus plus. I guess in less tha one star they might even explain it more simpler so you can further understand which is the room rate plus 10% tip you pay the staff on everything you do and consume in the restaurant/bar/gift shop/etc everything in the hotel because people "forget" to tip and then 7% or whatever for vat. That is room rate plus plus. And yes infact Nakula, yet another example of the word service charge which means tip to be divided amongst all the staff. Well Christian now maybe you can re expalin what you think you got away with.

[Neal]

Looks like we are not going to get anywhere on this tipping issue although it does appear that we did get some translation on the definition of words. I don't think many are going to change their behavior meaning those people who gave will continue to give and show their appreciation and those who don't will continue what they believe is correct. In the end it will all get sorted out in the wash. :hello2:

[Patexpat]

now THAT'S the most sensible post on this topic so far Boss!

[naklua]

When you check into most hotels that offer more than a one star it is explained that charges are the room rate plus plus. I guess in less tha one star they might even explain it more simpler so you can further understand which is the room rate plus 10% tip you pay the staff on everything you do and consume in the restaurant/bar/gift shop/etc everything in the hotel because people "forget" to tip and then 7% or whatever for vat. That is room rate plus plus. And yes infact Nakula, yet another example of the word service charge which means tip to be divided amongst all the staff.

DaBoss not sure what you are on about now. Your reasonging is a bit confusing. I guess your point is, that those people who do not share your opinion regarding service charge are cheap Charlies who have never stayed at fancy hotels or eaten at posh restaurants and are thus ignorant that the service charge is a mandatory tip. I think it is not necessary to counter this opinion...
By the way: "Land of the free" (US and Thailand) and "mandatory" seems not too compatible to me.

Naklua, that's a gross misrepresentation/misinterpretation of what DaBoss posted. :violent1:

What he actually said was 'each to their own' - see below



..those people who gave will continue to give and show their appreciation and those who don't will continue what they believe is correct...

[ceejay]

On the VAT issue, a few hotels quote their headline prices without VAT. The Ambiance and Cafe Royale come to mind. They both mention this at the bottom of their rates lists. I guess some folks have missed that and got a surprise when it was time for the bill.
(Note: checking my facts before I post, the Cafe says a Government tax of 7.5% is applied. Where'd that extra 0.5% come from?)

[Neal]

Thanks SG. Some just won't read and give up. No one will change. I just believe that when I give a little and make people happy and bring smiles to people's faces, if there is a place, that's where I am going. Do as you wish, some of those who will appreciate me will do so for awhile until I am forgotten as will you.

[bruce_nyc]

Don't worry, Boss. Every cheap Charlie out there just makes you stand out and look even better... to the servers and other staff. It's no wonder they remember you and jump to attention when you arrive.

It's not "mandatory" to patronize businesses that charge "mandatory" tips. I try to avoid patronizing such businesses.

Also, what they call "mandatory" is not always really mandatory.

For example, if I ever receive terrible service at such an establishment, I see to it that the manager REMOVES that "mandatory" tip. I'm not paying extra for something I didn't receive.

Also, on cruises they badger you for a credit card. Then they automatically add tips for everyone to your account. We always refuse to give a credit card, and tell them we'll pay cash. We never pay more cash on account than we actually spend. And when they add the tips to our account, we tell the Purser to remove those charges.
I don't trust the corporation to distribute MY tips. I hand cash to each staff person I want to tip.

[christianpfc]

You mean you don't have to pay VAT etc if you "walk in", Christian ...?
I don't know and I don't care / can't be bothered. As an end customer, I want one price, the price I have to pay.

When I go to 7/11, the price I pay is displayed on the shelf, when you go to a gas station / petrol station, the price you pay is displayed, why can't it be like this in all restaurants and hotels (well, there is only a small minority, which my original post is about, where it's not that way).


When you check into most hotels that offer more than a one star it is explained that charges are the room rate plus plus.
Please, just one number! (I'm not good at maths. - Joke)

(I know I have to pay VAT - and so do they, even before I set food into the restaurant/bar/hotel, so they can price it in at the very beginning and not at the end.)

[naklua]

Naklua, that's a gross misrepresentation/misinterpretation of what DaBoss posted. :violent1:
What he actually said was 'each to their own' - see below

..those people who gave will continue to give and show their appreciation and those who don't will continue what they believe is correct...

SG: your citation of Daboss does not adequately capture the reasoning of several posts of Daboss in this thread. You just picked one of his comments which was counter to some of his previous posts.
The core of the topic is, that 'each to their own' does not apply if the business does not give you a choice to tip less than the service charge, even if service was inferior. "Mandatory" and 'each to their own' do not fit together.

Daboss being handled politely by waiting staff at the establishments of his choice is no surprise taking into account his tiping policy. However, it does not prove his point that a service charge is an adequate compensation policy and Ok from the perspective of the customer who is obliged to pay this fee irrespective of the quality of the service received.

BTW, if there really was a restaurant's/pub's policy to distribute a certain percentage to the staff this could easily be done w/o quoting prices not including this percentage. "10% service charge included" instead of "10% service charge will be added". As simple as that.

[bruce_nyc]

Adding it afterward makes the restaurant's prices look lower.

That's very important psychologically.... in business.

[Neal]

Oh Nakula you are 1 step above 1.
If a restaurant has a mandatory 10% service charge and you do not wish to pay it, simple, get up and leave. Don't eat there. In order to charge 10% it must be stated so in their menu OR you can just ask. Then carry your butt out. That's not difficult, is it?

Now regarding quoting the price and putting the 10% on the price of the meal, there are add ons all over the place. Do they add 10 baht extra for a coca cola? 5 baht for mashed potatoes instead of veggies? A person is going to compare the price of a chicken breast that they like at one restaurant to the chicken breast at another. Adding the 10% then at one and not seeing it at the other incorrectly compares one price that has it to one that does not.

Really isn't one way to look at this is that you are already reading into the meal when you are ready to order that the meal or service will be shit and you are already having a fit at the 10%. First off I have never had such a bad meal or service that I objected to the 10% and secondly IF I ever do, I am sure a quiet discussion with the manager and I could get it removed and explain why.

As I mentioned, when calling for reservations or walking into a strange restaurant, you have a mouth. ASK? If they do, you can explain why you already think the service will not be up to standard and walk out.

Bruce not always lower but as I said above, comparing one to another and then trying to subtract the 10%.....

Nakula, and on this subject I hope you stay out of the majority of hotels that charge the price plus plus. It's forced tax and 10% service charge (tip) :crybaby:

[Rolling Stone]

I was once having dinner with a colleague in a smart place in central London. When paying the bill I asked my friend how much tip I should pay (he is a Londoner), he told me 10 to 12.5%. So I put in 25 pounds over the actual spending on my credit card bill. But the waiter said it is OK and they did not charge me for that! Later on I realized that they have already charged me for service charge @ 10%. I appreciated their honesty (with a bit of surprise) !
I am wondering what would have happened if I did the same in Pattaya! lol :)
P.S. I was a bit Mao the other day :)

[Neal]

Yes, unfortunately you are 100% correct like I mentioned in an earlier post. If you are tipsey and don't read that there is a 10% service charge and you add on more, I am sure people will not turn it away. BUT then again that's the same as a charge for an extra drink, coke or anything else. Read the menu and see what is added just like a hotel bill or anything else. It is not the 10% charge that is at fault it is the person being drunk and jnot able to figure it out. No?

[naklua]

If a restaurant has a mandatory 10% service charge and you do not wish to pay it, simple, get up and leave. Don't eat there.

I dont regard this as a proper choice. I am not able to judge their quality of service w/o eating there.

[/quote]In order to charge 10% it must be stated so in their menu OR you can just ask. Then carry your butt out. That's not difficult, is it?[/quote]

This is off topic. I did not complain about a 10% fee not stated on the menu. Thus your comment is superflous.


First off I have never had such a bad meal or service that I objected to the 10% and secondly IF I ever do, I am sure a quiet discussion with the manager and I could get it removed and explain why.

Lucky guy.
But: Why should I have to engage in a discussion with the manager? Especially in LOS discussions are not appreciated.


As I mentioned, when calling for reservations or walking into a strange restaurant, you have a mouth. ASK? If they do, you can explain why you already think the service will not be up to standard and walk out.

As I mentioned above, this statement is completely beside the point.


Bruce not always lower but as I said above, comparing one to another and then trying to subtract the 10%.....

Bruce seems to have learned about psychological pricing - in contrast to Daboss.


Nakula, and on this subject I hope you stay out of the majority of hotels that charge the price plus plus. It's forced tax and 10% service charge (tip) :crybaby:

The majority of the hotels/apartments where I have stayed during my trips to LOS did not charge ++.
The 2nd plus is out of question (VAT). I only contend against the 1st plus.

[Neal]

Thank you Nakula, I can't carry this on as it is just beyond me. Sorry. You have made your point, I have made my point and as I said before, it will not change anything.
Have a nice day.

[christianpfc]

That brings us to membership statuses. "Board owner" and "Moderator" is clear, but when do you become "Full Member" or "Confirmed Member"? Obviously you start as "Special Member" with 0 posts, then become "Confirmed Member" with 5 posts, and "Full Member" with 50 and "Posting Freak" with 2000 (side-note: Beachlover still holds the record with 5560 posts)

memberlist.php?mode&sk=d&sd=d#memberlist (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode&sk=d&sd=d#memberlist)

What we need is "Veryfied by Neal"-member. (Joke)

[Neal]

There used to be about 6 - 10 other levels including a few that said "teacher member". I asked Elephantspike what all these levels meant when I took over and he said that" they were just titles i made up". I deleted most as they were ridiculous and they would only lead to bad feelings later on.

[bruce_nyc]

Too bad...

I would have so much fun making up new categories.

I would have top, bottom, versatile top, versatile bottom, ladyboy top, ladyboy bottom, straight top, straight versatile, bi curious, gaybcurious, straight curious, lesbian falang, straight female falang, ...... just to mention a few.

[Neal]

You left out "All around NUT". :sign5: :occasion9:

AHH !!!! So are you saying in fact Neal that the service cost IS indeed included in the 100 Baht drinks price then !!!!! ........ so, no need for a tip then after all it seems eh ? lol ( JOKE !!! )

[christianpfc]

No service charge and VAT on the 100 Baht? It's a bargain! (Joke)

[Neal]

Yeah Chris and come to think of it Chris and others dont have to pay vat and 10% while sitting on their deck chairs on the beach!

[Chris2324]

at da boss, we spent quite a few bath at the bars you own for many years, so do not get too upset, we will keep on spending, while your eros bar is ok priced and great fun, bars in boys town are a bit of a rip off, just saying, this is my honest opinion. and as far as where we will get our drink and food, it is a free country so i hope we are welcome wherever we want to spend our bath ;)). about 10% VAT come on, there are ways around it even in holland not along in thailand. if not change the accountant then

[Chris2324]

@newalaan

is this really correct that the tips we leave in the folders for the waiters in the gay owned venues goes to the owners? if so it is outrages!!! next time we go out and i see the owners there i will ask them directly

Actually on a slightly serious note re the whole putting the tip into the hand of the server etc and not putting it in the folder etc now that I think of it I have been corrected and told about this NUMEROUS times by my bar staff friends in Bkk - and I don't say this to be contentious in any way but merely as a matter of FACT as I always forget about this and my Thai friends who know I always forget instantly and quietly correct me and if I've already put the money into the folder and I tell them simply to remove it and give it to the waiter etc they won't for love nor money touch it and insist that it's me who takes it out to give ( usually to their bar staff friend) as they tell if caught doing this that it's not far off a sackable offence - but they are crystal clear with me that any monies inside the folder going back to the till belongs to the bar ( which perhaps may be shared out later I don't know?) - but I do know that if you want your money to go to the server directly YOU must place it directly and visually openly into his so that there is absolutely no confusion about your intent.

This "correction" by my Thai friends has happened in several different places and in many gay and str8 venues around Bkk and so is not based around one bar and as I have been told this many times by several totally different and totally unconnected friends I have no doubt whatsoever that it is the accepted BKK custom and practice in BKK at least.

[Neal]

No CHRIS. I have no idea where you got that. Money given to a spicific waiter or person goes to that person and money put inside the folder gets shared amongst the waiters, bartender, DJ, mamasans. Personally I like to put it inside the folder as everyone shared in my happinsess in tha bar and if I want to I can always take a 20 or 50 and give it specifically to the waiter.

[newalaan]

newalaan is this really correct that the tips we leave in the folders for the waiters in the gay owned venues goes to the owners? if so it is outrages!!! next time we go out and i see the owners there i will ask them directly
Yes chris, in some instances that seems to be the case, it came from another poster who can be relied on for good info, "bobsaigon" from another thread, but the post from NIrish certainly seems to point to a more widespread practise of bkk bars not passing on the tip. So much for accepting owners accounts of where tips go. I never claim something as fact until i have experienced it for myself but Bobsaigon and Nirish are certainly to be believed before others here that's for sure.


Actually on a slightly serious note re the whole putting the tip into the hand of the server etc and not putting it in the folder etc I have been corrected and told about this NUMEROUS times by my bar staff friends in Bkk - and I don't say this to be contentious in any way but merely as a matter of FACT.... I tell them simply to remove it and give it to the waiter etc they won't for love nor money touch it, as they tell if caught doing this that it's not far off a sackable offence - but they are crystal clear that any monies inside the folder going back to the till belongs to the bar ( which perhaps may be shared out later I don't know?) - if you want your money to go to the server YOU must place it directly and visually openly into his so that there is absolutely no confusion about your intent.This "correction" by my Thai friends has happened in several different places and in many gay and str8 venues around Bkk and so is not based around one bar and as I have been told this many times I have no doubt whatsoever that it is the accepted BKK custom and practice in BKK at least.
Well that IS interesting Nirish Guy, never suspected it was as widespread as you say. I only visit Bkk twice per trip for 2-3 days each time and although know many of the staff around Soi Twilight never have time or the urge to ask about their 'tips' situation. The guys I know best and spend most time with in Bkk are not part of the silom money-scene, unfortunately they wil just not go to Silom, so when we meet up it's in Rachada or elsewhere in Bkk, and they are who I would normally ask about things regarding Bkk, so I haven't come across this 'tips in the bill folder go to owners' situation, I always assumed it was equally shared among the staff. Very disappointing I must say if true of most/many gay establishments. Normally anyway I give tips into hands in places where I know a particular waiter and he has been very good, as well as one for the folder. On my next trip I think I might enquire about this at my usual haunts in Twilight and Soi 4.


and as far as where we will get our drink and food, it is a free country so i hope we are welcome wherever we want to spend our bath As I suspected chris is quite capable of making up his own mind where he can eat and drink and not have to rely on others patronisingly tell him he should not drink here, or go eat there as if he is not already aware of his choices. But of course chris didn't make the post just to moan, his post also informed others here about the pricing structure at LCR, so they too can make their own minds up about whether they feel it's a rip-off or not.

[Neal]

Absolutely false. Money that goes into the folder goes right into a tip jar at the cashier box and at the end of the night gets distributed to the staff and not the owner. That money jar is in full view of the staff at all times. Unbelievable!

[Neal]

And to further speak on this, if you were told it by a friend or boyfriend, I give the following suggestions:

Your friend or boyfriend does not work in a bar or restaurant and did not understand whoever told him and understands it improperly.

Your b/f works in a bar or restaurant and wants to get 100% of the tip money without sharing it with his friends that he works with.

Maybe it is a 1 or 2 man operation and the cook is just the bottle washer and the other is the owner, where the owner then takes the tips as his.

Anything else is just unbelievable and needs to be prepared to name the place and the proof.

PS BIG letters is to make sure people read it and was not shouting. Shouting is with capital letters, duh. and the post was not even addressed to you! :tongue3:

[newalaan]

Absolutely false. Money that goes into the folder goes right into a tip jar at the cashier box and at the end of the night gets distributed to the staff and not the owner
Yes that is what I always was under the impression happened, and have never had the need or inclination to question it. But it's Nirish Guy you need to be shouting at, it was he who says he has proof that it's clear that in many instances in Bkk that does not happen. And as I do not regard Nirish Guy as a liar I am inclined to accept his assurances that there may be times where the money does go into the till instead of those tip jars. Big letters do not make anything more factual by the way.

[gaymandenmark]

I dont understand this.
I have had friends working in a famous pub in Bangkok, and was told that tips in the folder will be shared between all the people working in the bar, and I do believe them.
It could be to the cashier, the man behind the bar, who makes drinks for the waiters and even the cook.
I dont know of any point system, but I know they are sharing the tips. In fact I have seen it.
I have also been told, that if you give a tip in the hands of the waiter it is his own.
But well the polity can of course be different from bars to bars.

[Neal]

gaydenmark you have it correct. If it happened any other way the owner would have no employees. That is exactly the way it works. Shared by all except the owner.
It is in most cases also shared with an asst manager and manager. Not shared by the go go boys if you are talking about a bar.

I know many many boys who try to get people to hand it to them directly so as to get 100% of the tip. I dont condone it as I think its bad. Everyone joined to make your time pleasant. DJ, cashier, bartender, cook, dish washer if they have one. Why should he be the only one stuffing it in his pocket? GREED.
Gee, greed in Thailand? I would have never thought! :sign5:

Just to be clear I am not and was not in any way suggesting for a second that "the bar owner" keeps the staff tips as like Neal has said I believe they would have a mutiny on their hands in minutes if they tried that - what I did say was that if the money was put in the folder it "belonged to the bar" i.e. not the boy you handed the folder back to and I did also clearly add "to be shared out later I'm not sure" as this makes sense and I am fairly sure is what happens generally and also I'm assuming from watching the certain individuals I know personally who are the ones doing the whole "give me the money "in my hand" thing that this was indeed to ensure that THEY and they only got 100% of the tip as I'm sure they didn't want to share it with their co workers (rightly or wrongly) - although strangely I know the other waiters were in on this also and gave and got money to each other tip wise "in their hands) so as Neal states I can only assume that this was to stop the barmen from getting their share of the tip - which again would make sense about the "almost a sackable offence if they were caught doing it" thing as obviously the bar owners / other staff would take a very dim view of any waiter pulling that stroke.

So whilst everything I said is and was 100% accurate and correct there was never any intended or implied suggestion that the bar OWNERS themselves were pocketing the tips only that the boys one might have thought you were handing the money to in good faith assuming he was getting it from the folder when he went up to the cashier didn't personally get it (or at least not all or it) - and I think aside from that it would be a brave / stupid bar owner who would try to relieve any Thai of their hard earned tips !! :-)

[Up2U]

@newalaan

is this really correct that the tips we leave in the folders for the waiters in the gay owned venues goes to the owners? if so it is outrages!!! next time we go out and i see the owners there i will ask them directly


Chris, do not believe all the horror stories. Yes, it has happened in the past, but that is not common business practice.You should feel free to continue observing your tipping practices. The word would spread like wild fire about a bar that did that and they would have major staffing problems and would not survive.

My informant about where the tips go (in the leading bar at Soi Twilight) was an ex-bf, now working as a waiter at that bar, who had absolutely nothing to gain by mis-reporting the facts. So the info I passed on to the Forum (in BANGKOK Ramblings) was, I believe accurate for his bar. I do not know what happens in other bars.

[bruce_nyc]

Several points. What really happens to the money left in the folder at the millions of restaurants and bars in Thailand is probably as unique as the establishments themselves. Every place surely has their own policy on the matter -- published or secret. Just because one place does it one way, doesn't mean they all do it that way. Even in Manhattan, different restaurants do it differently.

Personally, I feel that the person(s) who waited on me are the ones who provided the extra "service" to me, and I want 100% to go to him/her/them. If a host did something exceptional, I might tip him separately. As for the kitchen staff, cleaning staff, management staff, etc., etc. They did not provide direct service to me. It is assumed that they are paid a fare wage --- just as in a place with counter service only --- where tipping is not the norm.

And frankly, I don't necessarily trust the establishment to distribute MY money for me. So that's why I will always put tips directly into the HAND of those I intend to tip --- especially in Thailand.

Someone talked about the cost of a soft drink at upscale restaurants here in Manhattan. I just got back from one. A Coke is $6. Also, I have yet to find ANY type of establishment in Manhattan that offers free refills. That has never happened --- at least not in the past 20 years. Not even at the cheapest diner.

As for the pricing of soft drinks at hotel restaurants / bars in the center of a tourist destination .... per the OP....

Get a grip.

If you want the absolute lowest price, go three doors down... to the Family Mart... and stop complaining. You can sit on the steps of the Family Mart for free.

Don't you realize that you're NOT paying 100 baht for a Coke... You're actually paying 90 baht for a fabulously pleasant, nicely appointed, full service TERRACE... in the very heart of a tourist destination which many people fly 12,000 miles to go to.... and sit on that very same terrace. Oh, and you're paying 10 baht for the Coke too. ;-)

If you look at it "properly", you're getting a bargain. If you don't agree, then either (A) open up an equally appointed terrace next door, with lower prices, or (B) buy your Coke at Family Mart, or (C) just stop complaining about it.

A hot dog and a Coke are $1.29 at Costco, with free refills. Any idea how much that same thing would cost you at Yankee Stadium? Here's a Clue: It has absolutely nothing to do with the cost of hot dogs or Coke. :-) And, no. No free refills. :-)

By the way, how much do they get for a Coke at the hotel restaurant at the Hilton Pattaya?

[bruce_nyc]

I totally understand what you're saying, Boss. It's just a matter of HOW they get paid. I think that the cost of everything involved in the place, the entertainment, the atmosphere, and the food and drink itself, and its preparation.... should be covered in the menu pricing.

The service of waiting on you, should be covered ( at least in part ) by your tip. That's just how it's traditionally always been done.


Judith Martin in her 2005 manners book ... considers tipping for non-table services to be inappropriate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_ ... discussion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandatory_tipping#General_discussion)

It is assumed that the staff are paid fairly by the owners of the business.

Of course, if the staff are not paid fairly.... then tipping could be used to subsidize that pay... But I personally don't think that is fair. If that is the case, then the menu prices should be lowered to compensate.... and it should be stated clearly on the menu that your tip will be used to pay the entire staff.

But we can agree to disagree on some things, Boss. I still love you.... :tongue1:

@scottish Of course. I totally agree. Vote with your feet. If you don't like the prices, go somewhere lower-class. If you don't like the lower-class, pay more. But no one wants to hear you whine about it.

My American boyfriend is famous for demanding the rock bottom cheapest prices on absolutely everything... and then wanting another discount on top of that.... THEN, he complains ( to me! ) if the service wasn't 5-star. He drives me nuts. He is so unreasonable. It's like he expects the business to PAY HIM to go there.... and then nothing is ever good enough for him. He says, "I just know what I want...." It's fine to have that attitude if you want to, I guess. But don't expect your friends to sympathize with you...

If you want better service, pay more. If you want lower prices, go somewhere cheap. But don't complain about what is ultimately the choice YOU made.

[Up2U]

...........
Personally, I feel that the person(s) who waited on me are the ones who provided the extra "service" to me, and I want 100% to go to him/her/them. If a host did something exceptional, I might tip him separately. As for the kitchen staff, cleaning staff, management staff, etc., etc. They did not provide direct service to me. It is assumed that they are paid a fare wage --- just as in a place with counter service only --- where tipping is not the norm.

And frankly, I don't necessarily trust the establishment to distribute MY money for me. So that's why I will always put tips directly into the HAND of those I intend to tip --- especially in hailand..........
?


Bruce, You are talking about Manhattan and Thailand in the same breath and you've raised questions about tipping which would warrant its own thread. I agree with little you posted above. Your assumptions about a fair wage are just wrong, that is the whole purpose of a tipping structure in both America and Thailand. The waiter is one important part of the restaurant team. Depending on the size of the restaurant there could be host or hostess, bartenders, cashiers, waiters, busboys, etc. all of whom add to your positive dining experience. So when you tip do not forget these people as they are poorly paid with no benefits and depend on your generosity. (Management and the kitchen staff (chef and helpers) receive a higher salary and are excluded from the tip pool.) If you want to give your waiter who provided you the extra "service" an additional tip outside the bin please is certainly appropriate. I do.

[bruce_nyc]

I think that tipping --- at least in tourist destinations, hotels, restaurants, etc. --- is a pretty universal concept. It shouldn't really be that different whether you're in New York or London or Pattaya.

Yes, I consider hosts, bartenders, and waiters to all be.... "servers". And, of course, we tip them all accordingly. ( and normally servers share their tips with the busboys working along side them )

If kitchen staff, management, etc. "are poorly paid with no benefits"..... then that seems to me to be the fault of the business owners. Why should they "depend on my generosity"? They should depend on the generosity of their employer.

I think it's fine if a restaurant wants to pay ALL of their employees from my tip money... as long as.... (1) they state that clearly on the menu, and (2) they lower the prices on the menu to reflect the fact that they are not paying their entire staff a fair wage.

If they are just taking the server staff's tips and "sharing" them with the entire staff.... just so they can pay them all less.... just to end up with more profit in their own pocket.... That is not fair.

And if I am paying the entire staff myself.... Then the prices of the items on the menu should reflect ONLY the cost of the food itself.... no more.

But in most places, the kitchen staff and management are paid considerably more than the servers are paid... BECAUSE they do not receive tips.

[joe552]

I solved this tipping dilemma by not tipping anyone - simples :occasion9:

(I am jesting, by the way).

[aot871]

Bruce , nowadays in most london higer end places , you will find a service tax added so no reason to tip on top. As to the lcr prices , i do not object to paying 100 bht for a coke in the evening , its just that i think its a bit of of a rip off at 2pm , on top which one has the dreaded 20bht tip (ha ha )

[Neal]

This shows from me but it is from Newalaan as I try to send the tipping posts to tipping


AHH !!!! So are you saying in fact the service cost IS indeed included in the 100 Baht drinks price then !!!!! ........ so, no need for a tip then after all it seems eh ? lol ( JOKE !!! )

Worse than that 'NIrish Guy' is this revelation from another thread by bobsaigon regarding Bkk.....

Speaking of tips: ex-Bf says that at his bar you need to put the tip directly in the hand of the waiter. If you put it the tip in the bill holder or folder - it goes to the owners and it's not distributed to the staff
Oh dear! These kind if suggestions/facts almost amount to treason here bob! I do hope this place does not serve food and could be classed as a restaurant in any way as, if you believe it, it's apparently an already well known "fact" that "service charges" in establishments go directly to the staff over and above their salary, well that is what the restaurant owners have told DaBoss, so if tips from a tip-folder can find their way to the owners pocket which were intended for staff that puts a REAL question mark over owners who make CLAIMS about "service charges" doesn't it? Also interesting that an independent example has been verified by an actual member of staff at that establishment, I daresay if you were to ask the owner there might be a different 'slant'.

[Neal]

Bruce, love ya to death but I need to challenge you on something.
Did the waiter cook your meal? The one waiter who waited on you as well as the other waiters make up the reputation the bar or restaurant gets. If all the waiters sucked except the one, well nobody would probably go there. In many nice restaurants there is one or more cooks and at least one if not two sauce chefs. If the food sucked, you would not go there. All the waiter did was deliver it as it came out the window and fetch you drinks and clean your table.
Everyone needs to wake up and understand that this waiter that loves you so much does not work ALONE! :idea1:

[peeseua]

...He also taught us NOT to leave the tip in the folder the check comes in. He said that if you just leave the tip in the folder, then the tips are pooled. If you want to tip your server, hand the tip to him or her directly.

Also, If there were two servers waiting on us, they both deserved equal tips. He would give 40 baht to each one... putting it directly into their hand.

Even after leaving a tip in the folder, I always tip the waiter(s) extra by handing the cash directly to them - I think of it as 10% service charge for the establishment because I don't have a choice and a little more for the serving staff (if they deserve it). And I also leave all my small change (usually between 50 to 100 Baht) for the room maid when I check out of my hotel room.

The way I see it, what is levied officially almost never gets into the hands of the staff and considering how much less they earn (compared to the service staff in my own country) I am more than happy to help them out a little in any way I can, especially if they've served me well. Of course, I don't add 'that little extra' every time the waiter brings me a drink - I only put it in his or her hand when I'm ready to leave so I'm really less generous than anyone might think.

Someday, I'm going to ask a really cute waiter if I can put his tip straight into his pants pocket instead of his hand...

[aot871]

I must be the outsider here , in that if there is a service charge added , i dont tip , to my way of thinking , its already been put on.

[Neal]

That's correct

[Up2U]

I think that tipping --- at least in tourist destinations, hotels, restaurants, etc. --- is a pretty universal concept....

Bruce - I know you're a nice guy but your comments need a reality check. Tipping is not a universal concept, if it were we would not be having these long discussions on this forum and others. And differences from London, New York,Pattaya, Paris, Tokyo are like night and day. The New York waiter may tip the bus-boy but it ain't goin' to happen in Pattaya, even if the tips were not pooled.


Kitchen staff (head cook and helpers) are excluded from the tip pool because they do get much higher salaries. Employers have fought to keep wages low with no benefits because they are well, employers, and can advertise and market their product cheaper. Employers have effectively lobbied politicians so they (employers) can apply tips received by employees to the basic minimum wage. Varies by state, but in Wisconsin the effective legal minimum wage can be as low as $2.13 / hr. Of course, in London and European capitals, restaurant workers are paid much better salaries and have benefits you or I would envy. So the need for tipping is not same in Europe as in America or Pattaya. Despite this the American restaurant worker fares better than his Thailand counterpart. So please, do be generous.

"I think it's fine if a restaurant wants to pay ALL of their employees from my tip money... as long as.... (1) they state that clearly on the menu, and (2) they lower the prices on the menu to reflect the fact that they are not paying their entire staff a fair wage."....really now, do you ever think that would happen?

"If they are just taking the server staff's tips and "sharing" them with the entire staff.... just so they can pay them all less.... just to end up with more profit in their own pocket.... That is not fair."....who said life is fair?

"But in most places, the kitchen staff and management are paid considerably more than the servers are paid... BECAUSE they do not receive tips." Only to a certain extent. Cooks at the better restaurants are highly valued. Cooking is a profession and cooks are well trained, often go to school. Not talking about short-order cooks or hamburger flippers.

bobsaigon wrote:
Speaking of tips: ex-Bf says that at his bar you need to put the tip directly in the hand of the waiter. If you put it the tip in the bill holder or folder - it goes to the owners and it's not distributed to the staff

Please note that I said "at his bar". I did not refer to other bars/restauranmts, only to the bar where ex-bf works. I have no idea what the practice is elsewhere and was not implying that it is applies to any bars in addition to that of the ex-bf.

[Neal]

I believe we have already covered this.
I am astounded at what this man is doing and would like to know the name of the bar. The known practice is that tips placed inside a check folder go to the staff and outside the folder goes only to that person. Please let us all know this bar as I am sure some of us would really like to be aware and check it out to make sure.

Neal it may not be as strange as you think as Bob and I were chatting via PM earlier where I half joking said " I bet I know the exact name of the bar and the staff member you're talking about and it's XXX from XXXX bar as I know both he and XXX the other waiter do this every night and think nothing strange of it" but Bob came back and said " no actually it's not that bar it's XXX bar ( a few doors down from his) so there's a least two bars in Soi Twilight alone where all the waiters do it and suggest openly to customers to place the tip in their hand and I certainly have been in other bars in Soi 4 etc where it's also been done by waiters too, so perhaps in BKK there's a bit more of a dog eat dog attitude going on where the waiters don't perhaps feel any need to hide that ( or feel any guilt) or as if they're doing anything they shouldn't be compared to the bars in Pattaya where everyone is a bit "closer"?

Personally I have kept out of this debate mainly as I know my views will differ certainly from yours a lot as I really don't see it's my place or problem to tip "everyone" in a bar including the DJ etc who may works in the place, that's the employers problem to keep his staff happy and pay his staff a reasonable wage out of his profits that I'm already contributing to - and if I chose to tip I WANT it to go to who I want it to go to and to be honest I don't really think ( or being honest perhaps really care) about a kitchen worker out the back, or plate washers, or greedy manasans or DJ's or god knows who else as the list could just go on and on - again I do realise that this is an alien concept to you and one with which you won't agree and I understand that but it IS just a different cultural issue between people from the US and Europe etc I think and neither of us is more right nor wrong than the other, we just think differently about this particular topic based on where we're from - and to clarify this has nothing ( well almost nothing) to do with money or being "cheap" - as I am not cheap about stuff in general as many boys will attest to and what I might happen to inadvertently save in this regard does I assure you go straight out of my pocket again in 100 other ways it seems - whether I want it to or not usually when in Thailand ! :-(

[Neal]

No, Irish, I don't think your views really differ from mine at all and surprisingley enough does not differ from others. Basicallyu I was "advising" you of where the tips went and answering many of the arguements.

Sure, in a bar, I personally am more inclined to put a tip in the folder as it's just what I prefer top do. Spread it around. I may tip the waiter but who knows. Depends on my mood, the waiter etc. If the waiter does anything "pushy" well it goes right into the folder. If he leaves me alone, who knows. If he is sexy and cute and cuddly all over me, sure, it oes in his pocket. I admit that the DJ, cashier and all get paid more than wait staff in my old bar, which seems to be doing well thank you. I am proud of them.
Haven't asked me for a dime in 2 months!

Restaurants? No. That goes into the folder no matter what the waiter does. I am sorry, I feel the cook and everyone deserve a piece of it and yes, I really am tired of talking about this tip thing. Whatever I do I will continue to do and whatever you do, you will continue to do so there's no use beating it to death. Another fourum is at 10 pages where he locks a thread but has chose not to and at least 50% of the posts is why he wants to chose what to leave rather than 10% or admitting why its very small.
Woinder why?

[Up2U]

My comments have been related to mostly restaurant tipping and I too have had a few reports from boys about bar owners skimming or taking the tips. I always took those reports with a grain of salt cause I knew the source and those boys would not share and wanted the tips themselves. But I must say since I do not drink alcohol I do not run up a big bar tab. I would feel embarrassed to slip a waiter a few baht (20) outside the bin. In a bar when I have exceptional service I would tip 100+ baht on a small bar tab. As Daboss has repeatedly pointed out when you have a good bar or restaurant experience it is because of many not exclusively your waiter.