The Fading Away of Gay venues in Pattaya

[thrillbill]

I have lived in the area of Pattaya (work) so have noticed a decline of gay farangs coming to Pattaya the past few years. I must admit, I go to Bangkok for my social life since I like the bars on soi 4 and some of the dance clubs in the area (sometimes). Of course in BKK, there is more of a "mixed" age group there verses Pattaya. What I have noticed during the times I have taken a friend to Boystown or Jomtien, is that there are less visiting farangs in the gay venues (not that I go to all of them- just a general observation). I remember 8 years ago, BoyzBoyzBoyz would have a packed crowd inside or the bar at Royale Cafe would have a crowd. Now, there are less farang visitors. I feel that this decline is due to the "age group" that mostly comes to Pattaya, - the retiree. Now with the uncertain economy of Western countries, and the increase of airfares, this has made a cut into the number of gay tourists from abroad. When I go to the gay venues in Bangkok, I do not get this feeling. These places in Silom still have the gay tourists and locals enjoying themselves. What do you think?

[Manforallseasons]

There is no doubt that Pattaya has become the Miami of Thailand, having said that I rarely go to BKK anymore, soi 4 is ok for people watching but the go go bars in and around Suriwong are nothing like they used to be as is Sapon Kwai.

[thanatorn-old]

I was last in Boyztown etc a good 8 months ago and prior to this time used to make two or three trips out there. I am currently looking to go out there soon but the airfares are ridiculously high. TG was offering economy recently at ┬г800, I used to pay ┬г500 and ┬г1400 for business class. Other airlines are similar or not as desirable. So this is definately causing procrastination.

The last time out I saw back then that things were not like the "good old days" when we knew what bars and restaurants we wanted to go to and what shows we wanted to see even if we had seen them a hundred times before. Perhaps there has been too much change in the ownership of the main places, too many times, a change in thinking of presentation and perhaps new owners not having the cash flow to carry on. A lot of us like the way it used to be, and because we aren't getting what we want we are not going as much.

The change in other areas with hordes of tourists whose behaviour is questionable to most of us doesn't help.

If Pattaya is no longer the gay mecca though, where is everyone going instead?

Personally I really don't see gay venues in Pattaya fading away. Sure, some bars and places to stay and eat are/were up for sale and most have been purchased rather than closed without a buyer.

Sure the streets are not thronged with visitors and patrons the way it was in years before BUT have you taken a look around you? Have you done a preliminary check on the world economy and the amount of people in the last two years that have lost their jobs and don't seem to find new ones??

No I doubt Pattaya and other places will return to the times of pre 1990 but I dare say that when the economy returns to normal, so will the street of Pattaya.

The only problem is, Neal, that your assessment of the situation is underpinned by the assumption that during these "years of famine" for Gay Pattaya, the would-be visitors are sitting on their hands doing nothing, going nowhere, just itching to get back to Pattaya when the world economic situation improves.

I doubt that this is the case, I think they are going elsewhere - both new places and maybe re-discovering places which they visited years ago before they discovered Thailand. Some of these people will enjoy the new or re-discovered places (and thanks to the low cost airlines and cut-price hotel websites they may find them cheaper than 2 weeks in Thailand). Consequently, it may be very many years (if ever) before these visitors are tempted back to Thailand.

Further, the world recession is lasting longer and biting deeper than most expected. There is no end in sight. I recall that when the Con/Dem Govt was formed (never elected!) in the UK, I said we were in for a double-dip recession and I was told on SGT I was talking rubbish. Well, we are where we are (in a DD recession) with no end in sight. With the current Govt's policies it could be 20 years or more before we get out of this - and the same applies almost throughout the EU. So, if, as suggested, the world economic situation is affecting trade in Pattaya, it could be a hell of a long time before that changes. When it eventually does change - will the current stay-aways be motivated to return to Thailand? Will they even still be alive?

I agree with some of the other points made - Air Fares have increased enormously (in the UK this is primarily due to aviation taxation), but some of the airlines are profiteering - British Airways for example have been slapping hundred of pounds on to air fares as a continuous "fuel surcharge" for YEARS now. This ought to be investigated by the authorities as it is clearly not a fuel surcharge (which ought to be a short-term measure to react to a short-term hike in fuel prices) - but simply a mechanism to raise prices by subterfuge.
The situation is highlighted if you get a"free" flight by redeeming points whereby you pay only the fees and taxes. The fees and taxes on a BA/Quantas flight to Thailand out of the UK amount to ┬г400 -500.

In summary then, I have my doubts that the downturn in Gay Pattaya is down solely to the world economic situation. I think that it may be partially that (and it ain't gonna change anytime soon) but it is in greater part due to what the Gay Pattaya "offering" has become: same-same product for more-more money (Happy Place and a couple of others excepted). Remember the nature of the gay scene almost anywhere in the developed world - the customers are extremely fickle and demand new venues and new experiences. Unfortunately in BT and Sunee the product on offer is basically the product from 1980 with a few more flashing lights and higher prices.

In terms of what passes for gay nightlife and horizontal entertainment, nothing has really changed in 30 yrs - and I suspect that a lot of the stay-aways (the ones who are not just sex maniacs and drug fiends) are just plain bored

:dontknow:

Unfortunately I have to agree with Scot's there - I think he's just about nailed it :-( Plain bored and sick of being over charged for more of the same same and so either staying at home as they've less ( or certainly no more money to spend than before) or if they DO have the money they are simply choosing to spending it elsewhere to ....... I was going to say get more bang for their buck but to be fair that's about the ONE thing that Pattaya probably does still excel at ! :-)

[Marsilius]

Yes, scottish-guy is quite right on at least his Pattaya-related observations. The product is stale and in need of revamping. I still go there, nonetheless, because (a) it provides what I want, (b) I am lucky enough to be able to afford to do so, in spite of the recession.

Criticism of Pattaya's "gay scene" is a little off the mark, however. While there are a few venues that might just qualify as part of a "gay scene", most businesses are better characterised as part of a uniquely commercialised "rent scene".

[stevehadders]

I think there are many reasons why bars are quieter:

Economic - what Scotty says is true, and the pressures on the exchange rate are twofold, with the Thai economy getting stronger, as well as the effects of the economic woes of Europe, and the rest of the World.

Expansion - When I first came to Pattaya 14 years ago (seems like yesterday) Jomtien and Sunni were not what they are today so low season in boyztown was still patchy but most things were concentrated there, now the smaller number of customers are spread over more venues

Same Same - most of the bars with shows are showing almost copy paste of the shows they were showing 14 years ago (some exceptions ) - which is tedious for the tourist and must become a big "no no" to most expats

Prices - yes I know the arguments that gogos offer a great service and unique entertainment, and the owners have to make a profit, but at current exchange rates we pay the same for a bottle of beer as we would do for a pint in many gay venues in UK ( personally I dont care and my holiday is all about fun and will regularly pay 12000 baht + for a great night out in gogos, Nab and karaoke with Thai friends - but others do compare)

"Spreading Wings" - in the last few years I have spoken to many couples in places like Khao Lak, Siem Reap etc who used to visit Pattaya but prefer now to see something more.....and today with WWW. can easily "preorder" male company to join them (I know sounds impersonal, and didnt mean to sound rude). In addition, most destinations welcome gay couples, are open to allowing overnight visitors, so is there any need for holidaying in gay areas?

Generational - I see in UK and in many parts of Europe on my travels that many of the younger gay guys (and I'm hardly ancient at 41 :happy7: ) dont feel the need or urge to visit gay bars, and tend to socialise anywhere with their friends (straight bars etc) and will only tend to visit the discos.......... I fell in love with Pattaya, Thailand and their gogo bars only 14 years ago, but maybe these bars had their glory years with the generation of gay men who were not as free as people are today . In addition all ages are free to find boys online - gayromeo being a great example. Personally I do both the romeo and gogo option (being a virile young chap I use Romeo for rainy afternoons but prefer gogos for night time)

I think gogo bars will survive (certainly hope so), but I dont think (and hope I am wrong) that the glory days of the past will come back - the owners who change with trends will survive.....many wont

[cdnmatt]

I think it's a whole host of reasons:

1.) World economic recession. Western world has declined, and will continue doing so. If your livelihood is 100% dependent on the Western world, you're probably in for some further rough times.

2.) SE Asia has been booming economically, and with that comes inflation, less people with the need to sell their bodies, etc. For example, just April 1st of this year the minimum went up from 180 to 300 baht/day.

3.) Before, I think people used to offset the cost of their flight from Europe with the day-to-day savings they'd experience once in Thailand. Nowadays though, you're paying like $6 for a beer, so that no longer works.

4.) Thailand, especially the tourist areas, have become more Westernized. Before, people went to experience a totally different world and culture. Now they go, and there's McDonalds and Starbucks everywhere. This is due in large part due to expats who fell in love, moved there, then after a while complained that they wanted it to be more like their home countries. They got it.

5.) Pattaya has cracked down on the prostitution & party scene as a whole, as they want to promote the city as a family friendly tourist destination. There's more money in people who spend two weeks at the Marriot, versus people who know the area intimately, and spend 3 months being cheap / local.

6.) Internet, and the connections it brings. For example, I don't really know, but I would imagine there's more poor, hungry, good looking college students in the West willing do to drop their pants versus 10 years ago. Why fly all the way to Thailand, when you can just browse Craigslist or whatever?

7.) Prostitutes in Thailand have also become more Westernized, and like us greedy white pigs, now want more, more, more. Again, communication technology has heavily advanced, so someone can just get off the bus for the first time, and within 2 weeks be brought up-to-date on all the tips-and-tricks of the industry. This means everyone is basically the same, and for the most part you know what's going to happen before you even leave your room. I could be wrong, but I doubt it was like that 20 years ago.

8.) Since the Vietnam war, which is really when Pattaya first started, us Westerners haven't exactly left the best impression with Thais. They've taken note, and now that their economy is doing better, they don't give a shit about us as much.

And probably a whole host of other reasons I can't remember.

... While there are a few venues that might just qualify as part of a "gay scene", most businesses are better characterised as part of a uniquely commercialised "rent scene".

You think the "rent scene" isn't part of the "gay scene"?

Seriously?

That's the way it is in every part of the world I've ever visited - think Amsterdam, Hamburg, Berlin, Bucharest, Fort Lauderdale, Torremolinos, Rome, Brussells, Manchester, Vienna, Prague, Budapest, Warsaw, St Petersburg .......... and those are just off the top of my head


:hello2:

I agree with most of you guys (except justme, sorry)

No need to put the whole list out again, but I will tell you about me/my situation.
I live here now 9 years (never been back home). I used to go out, to gay bars (mostly Sunee) a lot 3-4 times a week, then 2-3 times a week and now ones every 7-10 days and have not been in Sunee for over 9 months.

WHY, you ask? :alc:
Bored? YES, sick of the same faces, same stories, same drunks, same music, same boys, same same same and same. Guess I just got a few years older and also got sick of feeling like crap the next day after going on the drink.

BOYS, don't get me started. OK, I will. :evil4:
As cdnmatt put it they are so much more westernized, which means more greedy.
Yes, now days they want double the money, but preferably do nothing or less for it. They are just no fun anymore compared to 5 years or more ago.
Blame it on us, on the frustrated mamasans or on whomever, but the boys are just not that good and interesting anymore.

PRICES, for drinks in some places are just too much. :gy: The beer prices in the supermarkets stay the same, so why does it in the bar have to go up 10 baht every 6 months. You can hardly find a beer below 80 baht (Sunee) anymore in just a simple beerbar. Forget the gogobar's, I never was a real fan of them anyway.

Nowadays if I go out I enjoy myself in Thai places with some good Thai food and 50 baht beers and meet the most lovely Thai boys there who are happy to have a good long talk, share a bottle of whiskey together incl. the bill, which I mostly want to pay but most Thais like to share in the bill.
and yes even sex with these guys is possible.

As for Sunee, :tif: I think it is slowly dying and will be a 100% Arab area in a few years. They have already surrounded the area and a moving in for the kill. (pardon the expression) :notworthy:

[Dutchboy]

That┬┤s me again....Why is this happening to me? LOL
First time visitor of Sunee end of this month, and then one says that the area is slowly ┬┤┬┤fading away┬┤┬┤
Is it still worth paying a visit?
Or will I just see overpriced, bored, no good for real action ┬┤┬┤boys┬┤┬┤ (read-old men) there?

Well at least I can feel like being home in Amsterdam...6 euro for a beer :crybaby:

Actually Dutch it might be interesting to headr YOUR views of things when you get there - we all already know / have our own thoughts on both Sunee and Pattaya in general ( whether they be right or wrong is of course a whole other topic ) so you coming as a new pair of eyes will actually be quite interesting / refreshing and YOU can tell US what you think perhaps ?? :-)

Aside from that don't worry I'm sure your holiday won't be a wash out and you'll find enough boys in Pattaya to keep you happy :-) Although I do agree with you about the price of the bloody beer, it's getting beyond a joke :-( still a couple of cold ones in a few straight bars normally balances things out a bit I find and is a refreshing change of scenery from the same old same old I find sometimes.

[anonone]

Every so often, there is a post about the decline of the gay areas of Pattaya. I seem to recall seeing the same type of complaint when I first discovered Thailand a couple years ago. I thought they were a bit daft as I had the time of my life...and continue to with each and every visit. I agree it will be interesting to hear the impressions from Dutchboy.

There is a human tendency to recall the "good old days" with fondness and "rose colored glasses". Do not extrapolate to conclude that the present day is any worse....different is not always bad.

I think for the long term resident, they can become a bit bored and find the "same same" to be a bit monotonous. This is the same reason I do not go out to the bars with any frequency while at home. It quickly loses the appeal. For the visitor, it is a different experience.

There may also be a generational thing going on as well. I can see the retired guys having a different set of priorities than the younger tourist. This seems to come out in the "music too loud / not enough lights" comments compared to those of us that go full tilt at the clubs until 4 AM...or later. :tongue3: NOTE: I am not saying either is wrong or better, just that we tend to look for different things when chose how to spend or time. I continue to say Pattaya is a great place because of the variety to please most everyone and every mood.

As for the price of beer, the highest price I can recall ever paying in Pattaya is 200 baht for a can of beer at X Boys. That equates to about $6 USD, which is still quite a bit short of 6 Euro. While pricey, it also comes with a great, explicit action show that is great fun on occasion. Of course, this is not a nightly stop for me nor where I would go to do some serious drinking. Gogo bar price for a bottle of beer is more typically 120-150 Baht, sometimes as low at 99 Baht in low season (Happy Place during happy hour as one example). From a tourist perspective, not at all unreasonable for holiday fun.

I will return in 2 weeks to take full advantage of the entire package. Most importantly to spend time with my BF, but also reasonably priced hotel accommodations, great food everywhere at cheap prices, stunningly beautiful Thai companionship whenever the mood strikes , cheap massage opportunities every day, all wrapped up in a customer service environment that you find in Asia.

There is always room for improvement and innovation when it comes to the bars and clubs, but the gay venues of Pattaya are far from becoming extinct.

Well, I don't hanker after "the old days", I'm not a resident, and I've never once complained about loud music.

However, I do know that Sunee is a shadow of what it was 10 years ago in terms of the number and variety of bars.

I also know that the "entertainment" in BT is essentially the same as it was 10+ yrs ago - the shows in Copa & BBB are no different, only the songs have changed. Go into most of the gogo bars and you could stepping back 20 years.

I also know that drinks prices have never been higher (and I would say 160-180B is more like the average if you exclude Happy Place), the
booze content has never been weaker, and the boys (whilst still delightful and charming) are certainly more commercially aware than before in so far as many just want to do the deed (or not) and claim the reward.

Finally, I also know that each year whether its high or low season the numbers on the streets and in the bars are down.
It seems to me that "High season" is now really only 6 or 7 weeks long Dec-Jan.

All of the above is, for me, facts - not nostalgia.

I'm glad you enjoy your trips and long may that continue - I just find that it's all getting a bit played out.


:dontknow:

[Impulse]

I have a great time whenever I go (once a year for a month). I view the glass as half full, maybe that helps me.
I can't keep up with all the sex and all the missed opportunities when I'm there. Plenty of bois and excitement. I'm not a big drinker so the prices don't bother me.
I'll grab a stack of 20 baht notes and throw them in the air at least once a trip and watch the bois go crazy grabing them up. I love sunnee and boys town. Plenty to keep me busy and no need for gay romeo. And the host bars are great fun too. Even walking street I met a real cutie at that gay bar and did'nt have time to go back and off him. My only problem is staying healthy for the whole trip but that is what dr Oliver is there for.
You only live once.

[christianpfc]

First time visitor of Sunee end of this month, and then one says that the area is slowly ┬┤┬┤fading away┬┤┬┤
Is it still worth paying a visit?

No need to worry. Claims about the decline of gay entertainment for Farang have been posted regularly since I started reading these forums more than 2 years ago. Whenever I went for holiday to Thailand, be it high season or low season, I found myself more or less satisfied with the situation. (Ok, I am optimistic and can be easy to satisfy.)

I once read somewhere (citation needed) that already the old Greek complained about the youth, and that was 2500 years ago.

(Looking at the current economical situation in Greece, they must have been right!)

[Neal]

There is no doubt that there is a decline in tourists from 10,15, and 20 years ago when it was elbow to elbow but there is still lots to see and do and enough boys to keep ya busy. I too have been reading all along about the decline and it's almost gone. Bullshit. It's not salmost gone and it ain't gonna be gone in the next few years. Like everywhere, once you have done it for so many times or so many years, it gets boring and you look for something new and exciting. a new thrill if you want to call it that. I came to Pattaya 11 years ago and sure while it is nothing like 11 years ago, it's still great fun and a great deal. Rooms for $29.00, drinks from $1.50 US to $6.00 in an air conditioned bar with a show and boys lusting all around you.

Do a search on something like is Boyztown dying or similar to that and you will see years of threads full of it. Really I get tired of these doomsday threads.
You don't like it, find and go where you want to go but please stop saying this place is dead cause it just is not. :alc:

[bucknaway]

The internet and cheap flights has helped trend new paths in gay vacations. With more guys turning to online dating and weekend sexual hook-ups by way of the internet, many are not interested in flying over 20 hours in a plane and then having to deal with customs as well as homeland security. I myself can't think of one single trip back from Thailand where a travel bag was not damaged or items removed from it by theft of homeland security or airport workers.

Thailand's rising entertainment costs now has to compete with the world dished up on message board forums, facebook chats, gay travel blogs and the like. Is it over for Thailand? No way! Are times-a-changing? Yes and for the better, if you are a gay traveler.

....I once read somewhere.. the old Greek complained about the youth, and that was 2500 years ago.

The old Greeks were always complaining about the youths - .....won't bend over readily enough...too tight...not tight enough....etc etc.

:occasion9:

.... I get tired of these doomsday threads.... stop saying this place is dead cause it just is not. :alc:

You're overreacting dear - nobody has said the place is dead - all that anybody has said is that it is in decline and you even agree with that yourself! The people who don't notice a decline are mostly people who started visiting once the decline had started - they don't know any better!

Sure someone can still come to Pattaya and get pumped rotten for a fortnight if thats what they want (and a lot of them DO only want that and that's fair enough).
Anybody who is not a sex maniac and who is offering their critique of what's gone wrong, is being constructive and their views ought to be welcomed rather than people getting "tired" of them.
Perhaps if more business owners listened to what their customers have to say, a lot of them would not be scraping the barrel the way they seem to be.

Oh, and Bucky - for a change I agree with you :sign5:

[Manforallseasons]

You are mildly entertaining scottish-guy however, unless you are a resident here you really haven't a clue.

[Neal]

You are mildly entertaining scottish-guy however, unless you are a resident here you really haven't a clue.

I would not say he hasn't a clue and I certainly would have to agree with him that there is a decline and for many reasons. Do I ever expect it to return to days of past? NO! Is there enough to stay satisfied? YES! Do I love living here? YES, and that might be because I am not going to uproot myself to take my sorry ass anywhere else at this stage of the game.

SG, I am so happy you agreed with me that Pattaya is not dead so I will be able to take the bar off the for sale list as you had me so depressed this evening! :tongue3:

[Impulse]

I have only been going to los since 2005, so maybe that is not long enough to notice much of a difference. Maybe 2000 it was a much busier place. I'm sure living in los full time would take a lot of the shine off the place.
Bottom line: there is still much fun to be had. And my question is,where else in the world can one have such easily available sex once past the age of say 35? Mexico,Cuba,eastern Europe,,,where?

....unless you are a resident here you really haven't a clue.

Point taken.

I'll leave the valid opinions to the motley crew of oddballs, misfits, alcoholics, dope fiends, on-the-run crooks, and sexual deviants, which apparently makes up a large section of the Gay Pattaya residents (present company excepted of course) - I'm sure they know best.

:love4:

[bucknaway]

Rocket, I think it depends on if you are in good shape or out of shape. If you want to let your money do the talking or if you are looking for guys that are in it for the fun and not the money.

If you are interested in places where you want to exchange sex for money than almost any poor country or island would be a place to start.

[Impulse]

Rocket, I think it depends on if you are in good shape or out of shape. If you want to let your money do the talking or if you are looking for guys that are in it for the fun and not the money.
Well, it's not so much the shape but my age. Very hard to find a 20 year old to be with when one hits the fifties. So Thailand makes it much easier for me. I know you're younger and in shape, so you have more options. You can go to the clubs and not think about paying.
And when on vacation there is less time so the convenience of in your face comercial fun...there is no place like Thailand.

[bucknaway]

I don't know.... I have met some 60 year old guys that are in good shape that I would not kick out of bed.
But I am sure that in South America and other places of the type you will find may/December relationships. An older friend of mine told me about the young guys in Peru who nearly got into a fight over him because they all wanted to have a chance with the older white guy and paid little attention to his younger Latin American friend.

As a matter of fact, the guy that went with his younger friend only did so because he was hoping to spend time with his older white friend.

[Neal]

and we are getting off topic so if you sweeties can, open a new thread for this, please.

[adman5000]

I have never been one to focus on the quantity of gay venues in BKK/Pattaya/etc. (There are plenty and perhaps too many.) I rarely interact with other Farang when I am in Thailand as my social interactions are exclusively with Thai. For this reason, my point of view might be different.

As a customer I view the decline from when I first came to Thailand as a positive from a selfish point of view because I find it easier to snag the guy I like without as much competition. I remember not all that many years ago in BKK of sometimes missing the guy I wanted to off because I was not quick enough to make the call or arrived late. Now I feel like it is a shopper's paradise.

I never find a shortage of handsome well-built Thai guys to have fun with. It can happen anywhere - a go-go bar, a massage place, gayromeo, as well as on the street, at the mall or the gym, etc. The quality may vary from trip to trip at the various places, but I feel the overall quantity and quality of boys doesn't.

I also find a bit more eagerness on the part of the boys at the bars versus the situation of a few years back where the boy, after being offed once, did not care if he was offed again as there would be more customers tomorrow. Or he might choose not to go with a certain customer knowing another would soon be along.

So I don't care if some of the customers or venues fade away a bit, as long as the boys don't fade away also. I have not had that problem yet. I still totally enjoy seeing how many different places I can find great guys.

[a447]

Adman5000, I agree with your comments 100% - my thoughts exactly!

Reading all the doom and gloom posts, I was wondering if I had actually been visiting the right part of Pattaya!

I've been a frequent visitor since about 2008 (I think) and I have never found it completely dead. My posts are a testament to the amount of fun I've had there over the years. Fewer customers mean more choice of boys and they are more eager to please, as the chances of an off have declined.

Are posters suggesting that the decline is only in LOS? Or only in Pattaya?

I have found that the old farangs who visited Bangkok are now being replaced by Asian sex tourists - and in far greater numbers. And there were quite a few Asians staying at the Ambiance Hotel back in April. There was a group of 5 or 6 Taiwanese guys there. On previous visits I have hardy seen Asians at the Ambiance. And the bottom line is, some Soi twilight bars are booming. I'm talking about those bars that do the right thing by their customers, just as Neal is doing in Pattaya at his bar.

[pong]

1.I doubt that this is the case, I think they are going elsewhere - both new places and maybe re-discovering placesI
2.Air Fares have increased enormously
Dont see this as criticism-I just wonder:
1.to where do they go then? In fact another Asian place-Bali, Indonesia, has also dwindled a lot for gay tourism. Yogya/Java is near dead in that respect. east-Europe (CZ, HUN) were already as much in the picture then as now. I am just curious then to what you think of as alternative-from Europe view (so South America is not a big destination and never has been). those dreaded mediterranean islands-Mykonos, Ibiza-you barely hear someone about them nowadays.
2.NO-this is mainly a UK-issue-due to fall of GBP in that period (even vs.тВм-still!). Here on the continent airfares to TH are moreorless stable-with even bigger chances on finding low fares in main season as before- and i fly over 2-3-4 times/year since 1988.
In BKK I cannot say gay life is dying-bar-life maybe a little less active or dominant as before, but all other aspects are thriving: sauna's multiplied, m2m massage tripled-quadrupled, etc.
But-after a 2 week visit due to floods last year nov. to ChMai I also realised that this (for me utmost gay city from before) may be seen as slowly diminishing there.

i think pong re Changmi fading ( if it is as I never thought it was too pumping to begin with perhaps) but if so I think that can be put down to the fairly strict local Mayor etc who goes out of (her?) way to ensure all things Gay are curbed as much as possible, whether that be the go go bars not allowing guys with their trousers off or the gay pride parade being banned etc, so if gay life is dwindling it appears her cunning plan to rid CM of all things gay may in deed be working :-(

[roger62]

Its low season now. It will get better end of September. Lots of bars are changing hands now so that will liven it up a bit.