Would Thai gays be affected by TPP should Thailand join?

[Rob33]

As seen in the news papers this morning, the contentious "Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement" that has been floating around for quite some time now but has America for some reason trying to put pressure on Thailand to join.

Personally I think it would be a good thing if Thailand remain independent of this type of binding agreement with big Nations like America or at least proceed with the greatest of caution. China is Thailand's number one investor followed by Japan then America.

If anything the recent and ongoing financial crisis should have made it clear that the US financial sector is dysfunctional so binding ones economy to it would seem in this day and age reckless to say the least.

But more importantly this agreement as it is proposed in its present form due to copyright issues, patents etc etc could jeopardise cheap drugs for Thais, making many drugs unaffordable to the poor.

The issue of access to cheap medicine being threatened by the TPP for me is the strongest argument for Thailand not ever joining.

This is a very well argued brief by "Medicins Sans Frontieres" http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/pr ... -Brief.pdf (http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/press/2011/MSF-TPP-Issue-Brief.pdf) for their "Campaign for Access to Essential Medicines" against the TPP agreement.

Again Rob33 beat up on Americans. My last nerve. Warning

[Thai Dyed]

Thanks for your informative post on the "Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement". I was unaware of it.
It would be a pity if once again the American government used its position as the world's biggest bully, to achieve its own selfish motives in every far flung corner of the world. I think the American government realizes that aside from a few patents and copyrights there is little it can offer the world. It no longer makes anything of significance other than armaments and weapons of mass destruction, and is moving into the 21st century on its all but bankrupt reputation.

N.B. to DaBoss: this is not a "beat up" on American people. It is a comment on the actions of the American government which is despised even by the majority of its own people, not to mention those of the rest of the world.

[Neal]

Thai Dyed, I don't look at this post as beat up on Americans. There are many many Americans that hate the political stance of American government and trying to be the world's bully and police force. I think that one reason on drugs is that they try to get them and some terrorists before they hit American soil or for that matter counterfiters. But to constanty bring up that we deserved what we have because we allowed another Bush to regin or because we have too many Republicans we have allowed in is bullshit. No you did not say that another poster did. We have Democraps and Republian assholes just like everyone has, they just call them by different names. Everyone promises to change everything in 4 years and then after 4 years explains why they need to get another 4 years because the last group left them too much crap. Every nation has them, we are not alone and many of us don't like the name policeman or bully of the world, unfortuantely there just doesn't seem to be enough of us to get it changed!

[Thai Dyed]

...unfortuantely there just doesn't seem to be enough of us to get it changed!

How true.

[Neal]

Or who don't care to make their voices heard because they don't think their single vote really would make a difference.

[Rob33]

Thai Dyed, I don't look at this post as beat up on Americans.

Nor do I. So who issued this warning?

This is a topical post about Thailand as seen in the morning papers. They have a very important decision to make and I think an issue about access to drugs for the poor should not be censored on this board.

I have no idea why Im getting this warning. Everything is game but not America is this the stance?

Its impossible to talk about any world politics without America being involved someplace? World politics and here in so far as it involves Thailand are interesting to me and other people. What Is this blanket censorship about one country about?

I fully understand how Americas foreign policies must drive many American citizens to distraction but head in sand never solved anything. People will discuss these issues when they see injustices.

Many people in New-Zealand are also dead against New-Zealand being part of the agreement the drug issue included but also the fact for example that the Dairy industry is completely protected in America so they don't gain very much but would just lose, one way traffic as America will not start importing Dairy never ever.

Its not at all fair to put Thailand under this pressure its almost a threat. Damned if they do damned if they don't, its an outrageous cheek. It takes courage to stand up for themselves and I think so far in relation to the TTP agreement they are doing the right thing for Thailand and I applaud this. There are far too many issues for them to simply jump in head first on demand like some monkey.

One of the most endearing things about Thailand is it's rich cultural heritage present and past. Thailand has a long history of independence they were never a colony, why should they become an economic one now? Im sure they wouldn't sign any such agreement with China either.


See my previous comment. You only seem to rant about Americans as welll as yes these old topics are fun to read and are there for similar threads access but not to make comments on 6 month, five year old threads, open a new thread. What you are responding to is too old. People have died or like other forums and don't post They are for reference. I hope you can understand.

[Neal]

I agree many things America does are wrong and act like bullies and I and many others don't like it. If you look at your posts though it is america this and America that and we deserve it because America voted in 2 Bushes. Sure other nations do things wrong to but ALL you talk about is bad America, not OK not Ireland, nobody else.

[ChelseaNY]

I'm an American progressive and certainly regret many actions my country has taken over the past century. That said, we may all be signing a different tune when we are bowing to Bejing. It's not far off and if you need a reference point take a look at Tibet.

[kjun12]

Chelsea, I worry about this because, as bad as our American govt. can be I shudder to think of the Chinese controlling the world. Not really a kind or nice bunch of guys from what I know and read.

[Rob33]

I'm an American progressive and certainly regret many actions my country has taken over the past century. That said, we may all be signing a different tune when we are bowing to Bejing. It's not far off and if you need a reference point take a look at Tibet.

In my opinion this whole perceived threat from China is completely overblown and misused by "tea party" type politicians in America, whipping up domestic frenzies.

The problem is politics in America as it maybe in China. In America they seems to need to install fear in the population to function, and China is one of the boogiemen frequently used.

You have to realise that America's very premise as a mostly "free trading nation" and capitalist economy means that without China the American economy would not be able to exist even in the state it is in now. The competitive nature of manufacturing in China means in fact its America taking advantage of China's poor labour force and not the other way around.

China has far too many problems now and will face even greater challenges as they develop. Social stability, poverty, population size, natural disasters the list is endless, managing that enormous country full of very different cultures and people means "plotting to overthrow the world" is the silliest idea imaginable, its almost a Hollywood plot its so ridiculously naive.

Financially the Chinese government has been extremely astute, this is not a threat this is how America survives this is what America wants how it has always functioned by selling government bonds to the world, in other words taking out loans from all and sundry.

America could just have easily refused to sell its bonds to China. If China was such a threat why wasn't this the case? Capitalism of course! Is this such a threat. Yes China is a bigger manufacturing country now than America but this is mostly due to American demand for competitively priced products. They could just as easily manufacture Calvin Klein panties in America but Americans choose not to???

The most salient point is in fact that China needs America as much as America needs China. There are all sorts of issues of course like any country has, domestic and foreign policies, keeping an eye on each other is healthy.

China hasn't even opened its eyes yet to the fact that it will be needing to take a much greater role in world politics, it doesn't have the time or inclination as it has so many problems of its own to be getting on with. Just policing the internet must take thousands of wasted hours alone.

And yes it's no other than America that is insisting that China does take a greter role on the international stage, at the same time as spreading fear and loathing at home??? Im not sure where thats at?


deleted. Communication as to warnings and such as indicated in the Rules and guidelines needs to be stated on the board ONCE and then further discussion by PM only. DaBoss

[Thai Dyed]

China hasn't even opened its eyes yet to the fact that it will be needing to take a much greater role in world politics, it doesn't have the time or inclination as it has so many problems of its own to be getting on with.

Rob33, you have absolutely no idea of what is going on in the world today if you actually believe this. I can't stop laughing after reading this.

[Wesley]

I would be much more hesitant to get involved with Europe than America, the Dollar is strengthening, its up 10 points in Central Asia in 4 years down two points in Philippines in the same time. The has been nothing near the mess the euro has with Greece and should any others follow I am not sure who has enough money to bail them out. I think the Germans tire of this crap. Indeed all the financial sectors here are saying opposite of he original post. I believe younger actually seemed to understand the need to have a real job and a real education not all these damn degree's that were passed out to them. I had ladies with a masters degree cleaning floors and it seemed to me that was more than she was use to doing, shroud she of had a real job like teaching she would have had a nervous breakdown in 3 weeks. ah , but so would I if forced to be shut up in a room full of kids for 9 months a year. But damn try to fire someone, its like firing the Queen of england, Got to pay them for a year any way then after a year of not looking for a job at the end of the year and the last check comes they ask for their job back, socialism will destroy a persons self worth. I will say some of the best art in the world in many ways was Russian, But since everyone had to work many were artists, the put a Mural in everything and especially with tile bricks, Some of it was beautiful the Museums were fantastic and the Bolshoi was much better than I expected. Also I enjoyed the Russian Opera and ballet at the Kremlin.

[kjun12]

Rob33, what is your reason for disliking America so much? Do you even know? You go on and on but never really make a point except your constant ambiguous negative drivel. You are vociferous and angry in your comments and constantly and consistently try to paint America as a great "bet-noir." WHY, WHY, WHY?

[Rob33]

KJUne12 thats complete rubbish. This is the first post I've posted about American foreign policy and only in relation to Thailand.

You are taking a mile from the moderators inch. Why dont you just add your opinion on the issue? Im not at all interested in your provocative thread About America versus the world.

ThaiDyed you make that one liner with no explanation??? :dontknow:

The only place China is involved outside its boarders is in its constant need to access raw materials. This is not getting involved with world politics what ever one might think of the way in which they go about accessing these raw materials. This is in any case some what of an international occupation, wars not excluded.

China was the first and only as far as I know country to be building a copper mine in Afghanistan for example.

There have been a few times recently in which China has actualy showed its colours in its membership of the UN.

China is not a threat to world stability as it stands the biggest threat to this is IMO is if it becomes as great a consumer as America. The world just hasn't got enough resources to cope and by this I mean everything clean oceans, air, oil, forests, fish in the sea ..............just a car for all and we are in full on melt down.

[ChelseaNY]

Rob33,

I do not dispute the economic analysis you present (although it's is worth noting that even today the biggest exporter in the world is the USA; we are hardly only a consumer nation). But I was not remarking on the threats and harm of free markets and free trade.

I was addressing what countries might do with their might and sway in terms of human rights and dignity. To ignore what China has done in Tibet, how it treats its own people, its policies about crime and punishment, the lack of a true democratic process, the maniacal control of speech. etc. is to be naive about what a predominant China will mean for its neighbors and the world. I do not think demonizing the evils of one nation minimizes the threats of another.

Respectfully.

[francois]

But more importantly this agreement as it is proposed in its present form due to copyright issues, patents etc etc could jeopardise cheap drugs for Thais, making many drugs unaffordable to the poor.
The issue of access to cheap medicine being threatened by the TPP for me is the strongest argument for Thailand not ever joining.


Really? You think developed nations should invest resources in developing new drugs in order that the pharmaceutical companies of Thailand, India, etc can copy them without paying? If these countries are so concerned about their poor then why don't they invest their own resources in new drugs? Easy answer, it it all about greed. They could care less about the poor in their own countries, all they care about is more money in their pockets.

[kjun12]

Chelsea, Please don't cloud Rob33's issues with logic or facts. That's just not how he thinks.

[kjun12]

KJUne12 thats complete rubbish.
No. What I said is not rubbish as you call it. It is fact. You maliciously attack America at every chance.

[Thai Dyed]

Really? You think developed nations should invest resources in developing new drugs in order that the pharmaceutical companies of Thailand, India, etc can copy them without paying? If these countries are so concerned about their poor then why don't they invest their own resources in new drugs? Easy answer, it it all about greed. They could care less about the poor in their own countries, all they care about is more money in their pockets.

This is the same propaganda spread by the pharmaceutical companies. And that's all it is, propaganda.
And in this same vein, how much did the English pay Brazil when they stole their indigenous rubber plants which grew only in Brazil? And to this day, what compensation do the drug companies pay to the countries whose rain forests they plunder in the search for new botanical sources for drugs? It is rape, plain and simple, and without compensation. As far as I'm concerned, the giant pharmaceutical companies rank somewhere on the level of heroin pushers. In fact, maybe slightly lower.

... As far as I'm concerned, the giant pharmaceutical companies rank somewhere on the level of heroin pushers. In fact, maybe slightly lower.

Fine words Thai Dyed.

So, we can safely assume that if you are ever diagnosed with any life-threatening illness (let's say Cancer for example) you'll be refusing all pharmacological treatment unless it was developed and marketed by someone playing with test tubes in a garden shed ??

:occasion9:

[Thai Dyed]

Big pharma leads the world around by the nose. Why can I buy brand name pharmaceuticals, genuine ones, imported from abroad for between 90% and 99% less than those exact same medicines, brand named and packaged by those who developed them, than in a place like the USA? When I have asked executives from the big pharmas themselves, they try to make me believe that they provide these to the second and third world countries on "compassionate" grounds. Yeah sure, and big pharma is run by Mother Theresa!

I stand by what I said, the people who run the big pharmaceutical companies are worse than the heroin pushers.

[a447]

Whilst being no fan of American foreign policy, all Americans can't be tarred with the same brush and should not be held to account for what their government does. Not everyone voted for Bush. I've met lots of really nice Americans all over the world. Lots of nice people from all nationalities, in fact. Including Russians. Yes, even Russians! This beating up one one nation is pointless and over-simplistic.

Also people are quick put shit on George W Bush - ok, the guy came across as a bit of an idiot- but don't forget that after 911 not one terrorist attack happened on US soil under his watch. He must have done something right.

And also remember that whenever a humanitarian crisis occurs anywhere in the world, it is usually the US which immediately jumps in to offer aid and assistance before anyone else.

[kjun12]

Thai Dyed I agree that the pharmaceutical companies are greedy and overcharge but your statement that you get them 90 % cheaper is ludicrous. Try not to stretch so far to make a point. I also dislike their influence in the US Congress. They try to stop US citizens from buying drugs from Canada that are much cheaper than those same drugs which are sold in the US.

[Thai Dyed]

Yes, my dear kjun12, 90 to 99% less.
An example: a friend in the USA pays $15 for each tablet of Levaquin 500mg. which he has to take for five days after a urological exam. I send him, from a country in Asia, brand name factory sealed authentic Levaquin 500mg which I pay 50 US cents per tablet. I also send him brand name Nicardia 30mg SR for 5% of what he pays in the USA for it. It is the same with all the other medications I know of that I or others use. I have just had elderly friends leave Asia stocked up with a years worth of medications they take which they paid about US$500 for. They told me they would have spent Us $10,000 for the same thing in California.

Before you call other people's statements ludicrous, you better make sure of your own facts.

[Neal]

I have a friend in USA who is on my old business plan who was HIV and still is and his subscriptions he submits to the pharmacies there are 10% of what they cost throuh Dr Phillippe here. Maybe it is unfair to match a pharmacy to some drugs that may be donated. As I don't know what of ***'s regimine is donated to Dr Phillipe and how much is paid for and I don't know what he gets exactly I can't go online and verify, but is 10%!

[francois]

And to this day, what compensation do the drug companies pay to the countries whose rain forests they plunder in the search for new botanical sources for drugs? It is rape, plain and simple, and without compensation. As far as I'm concerned, the giant pharmaceutical companies rank somewhere on the level of heroin pushers. In fact, maybe slightly lower.

Plunder the rain forests for botanicals? If anything the countries who own the rain forests are doing the plundering by chopping them down for the lumber or to till the land.

[latintopxxx]

wait until the Chinese dominate the world...the whole spratley islands issue is just a foretaste....then all the cardigan wearing tree hugging sandal wearing leftie whiners will wish george bush was back in the white house....

[francois]

Why can I buy brand name pharmaceuticals, genuine ones, imported from abroad for between 90% and 99% less than those exact same medicines, brand named and packaged by those who developed them, than in a place like the USA?

I stand by what I said, the people who run the big pharmaceutical companies are worse than the heroin pushers.

Most likely the cost of meds in the USA are higher since many prescription drug plans will pay for them.
Also, to some extent, the higher costs offset the losses the pharmaceutical companies suffer from copycats.

As far as heroin pushers, there is an element of truth in that. Heroin, or more accurately, diacetylmorphine, is used to treat severe pain such as experienced by cancer patients and others. Although in the USA Morphine is prescribed.