Boyz Town - Rebrand/Reinvent/Restructure

[SlaveDriver]

Good Morning the Gay World in Pattaya

Taking clue from NIrishguy's concern about the BT establishments losing the gay identity, I want to throw a challenge to anyone on this forum to come up with an ideal Business Model to Rebrand/Reinvent/Restructure BT to keep the gay identity yet meet the needs of the changing market conditions and customer preferences.

The best professional idea would win the Author the Gay Nobel Peace Price for year 2012.

Bring it on the the intellectual gay community :party

[joe552]

jeez, you must be seriously worried about your business if you're looking for advice from posters on an anonymous message board.

I don't know you or your business, but this smacks of desperation. :dontknow:

[frequentflier]

I have recently returned from Pattaya and stayed at Le Cafe Royale for 2 weeks..I had not noticed that it had lost any of its gay identity.When people say Boyztown do they mean just soi 3? I thought that the whole area around soi 3 was Boyztown.I did notice that the Ambiance hotel had a number of very straight guests but so what?
I did not see them around the soi at night and during the day it looks like any other soi.
All the other gay go go bars in the area are all mixed in with straight places so no identity problem there.
I suppose it strange to see a lot of straight people staying in what is considered a very gay hotel but they offered a 50 per cent cut in their rate while I was there and the people that stayed there seemed to be Thai.
Other gay hotels are offering rate cuts as I write this and are not saying that they are gay.Maybe sign of the times.

Another poster asked - is Boyz Town only Soi 3?
As far as I understand, technically it is - but the adjacent Sois are "regarded" by most (except the soi 3 businesses!) as being part of Boyztown.

Anyway, to answer Slave Driver's question - I don't think Boyztown can rebrand/reinvent/restructure - in my view it's dying a slow death and is effectively finished - it has been a gradual decline over the past 10 years especially, and I really believe it's only a matter of time until there are only 3 or 4 "gay" venues left in Boyztown

The bottom line with Copa & Ambiance hotel must be that they have not been attracting sufficient gay clientele and the high tariffs which accompany the pink pound.
Hence, both have repositioned themselves to attract non-gay custom, with the resultant cut-price tariffs which that market expects and demands (another poster suggests price cuts of around 50% are on offer and he is absolutely correct).

Now that these 2 hotels have re-defined their market, it is not going to change and even if the present ownership or management were to change nobody in their right mind would try to turn the clock back.
Le Cafe Royale would be in a perfect position to scoop up the remaining BT gay accommodation trade - were it not for the fact that (the last time I looked - 2011) at least some of the rooms are pretty tired and dated.

As the area attracts more str8 hotel customers, there will start to be pressure put on the surviving gay businesses both by the diminishing number of gay visitors to the area - and of course there will start to be be issues raised by str8 customers over what they will perceive as an "old men and young boys" scene.

So, all in all, I can't really hold out much hope for Boyztown - I think it's well past it's sell-by date and the marketing conversion of Copa and Ambiance hotels could prove to be one of the final nails in the coffin . :crybaby: :crybaby:

[RonanTheBarbarian]

It is hard to know what would help Boyztown.

Personally I suspect that international forces, more than anything else are instrumental here. I get the impression that Boyztown attracted a certain type of European and American gay guy in the 80тАЩs, but has been less successful in attracting them since.

In Bangkok, similar forces are at work, but there the gogo bars have made up for lost custom amongst farangs by attracting East Asians.

Pattaya hasn't seemed to have been able to attract that market as much, therefore the shortage of customers.

Another aspect is the rental economics of it. I donтАЩt know the details of it, but I suspect Boyztown is now a lot more expensive to rent a bar in than Jomtien or Sunee. Partly this is because it is nearer the main (straight) tourist area of Walking Street/Beach Road. That means you will be getting investors who will be anxious to make a quick buck by appealing for the straight market rather than the purely gay one. And I am not pointing just at the Ambience here, before anybody gets on their high horse. This might bring in money in the short time, but will degrade the "brand" of Boyztown in the longer term.

A similar thing (being replaced by general tourist facilities/ businesses) is happening in the straight beer bar areas near Beach Road, going by what Stickman says.

From my memory of reading Michael Burchall's book (on the history of Boyztown since the Eighties, amongst other topics) I get the impression that the Soi 13/3 area was an underutilised areas (a bit like Jomtien Plaza today) when he and the other trail-blazers arrived. Presumably that meant that rents were cheap. That opportunity does not exist now. If no gay bar owner is interested in renting a site, it will get snapped up by somebody with an idea for another business. Unfortunately gay businesses tend to be a bit marginal compared to straight ones. It is a common process world over for gay business to move into a rough area of town, gentrify it by attracting in the queens, and then have their gay bars replaced by the like of TGI Fridays and Disney cinemas that the gay bar owners do not have the turnover to compete with.

(Not that I am claiming that Boyztown "gentrified" the Soi 13 area in this instance, but the rental economics of the soi do seem to have changed since 1985)

Another impression I got from reading Burchall's book is that he and some other pioneers were always on the lookout to improve the area, rather than (just) make a quick book. I remember Burchall rented out the upstairs of his bar to a restaurant owner rather cheaply to get a business in there. He and the others started up things like the Pattaya Gay Festival and got sponsorship for the "Boyztown sign.

There does not seem to be that quite sort of optimistic spirit in the gay business owners today. But these things are difficult to organise, I remember that Sunee was trying to organise something similar and it all faded away after one "white party".

One thing that the business owners of Boyztown should NOT do collectively is something that they have been occasionally accused of, which is colluding to keep price up in the gay establishments. I say this not just because I like cheaper prices, but because trying to keep your business "high value added" in that fashion does not work. I appreciate that bar owners might feel that if Boyztown is offering a "premier product" compared to Sunee (and no need for sniping comments here that they are not :blackeye: ) and so may think that the extra custom gained by lower prices is not worth the decrease in profit.

However, the secret there is to work to enhance your brand by having an obviously premier product, investing in your business and charging for it (and being prepared to put up with a hotel with vacancies or a quieter bar for a few years along the way). Any gentlemenтАЩs agreement to keep prices up in an area will only result in some of the short-termist business owners "free-riding" on the system (if everyone is charging 200 baht for a cocktail, why not save money by serving skimpy measures?) and results in people feeling ripped off ("I paid twice the price than Sunee but got the same watered down drink!" fume!).

This creates a backlash.


So, in recap, this posting has actually about what the business owners probably cannot do in the current situation, or should NOT do, rather than having any Gay Nobel proze worthy ideas to save it. Sorry about that, but perhaps this posting will stimulate some further discussion. :dontknow:

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Just to add an addenda to my posting above.

1) I do not know if how Michael Burchall portrayed his business strategies in his book is necessarily accurate, before anybody with a different memory of the time chimes in, I was more using MY OWN impressions from reading it as an example than attempting to make definitive statements on his business history.

2) I am not trying to make an angry or definitive claim here that some Boyztrown business collude in pricing, just stating that it is an opinion that is out there and making a dispassionate observation that as a business strategy it is doomed to fail - studies have shown that such a policy, even when used with sincere intentions, such as to try to maintain a "premium brand product" rather than simply gauge customers, it never really works out because of the "free rider problem". Real permium brand, such as the Peninsula Hotel chain, do not obsess over there price compared to the competition.

[SlaveDriver]

Wooo. I like the intellectual interaction taking place in this forum. Thanks everyone ..... except the first response ..... ignore

Now let us try to get a Business Model worked out that could keep the gay identity in place yet make the business viable.

How about a gay-stright business synergy? :party

[Wesley]

NOt sure if I can help a lot, but I can tell you what I have seen in some of my travels that worked almost too well so picked it was hard to get another gay guy in. One was local guys that come often pay little or no cover that for the tourists, the local client├иle gives them someone to relate to to talk to to get advise from. Have people ready for people you know are planning to attend. assign a waiter to keep this guy happy, or guys it could be a number of men in drinks and never pushy but available. have set events weekly that people can depend on happening. Hire a few straight guys to do nothing but dance partially bude but dressed enough to keep everyone guessing. They like waiters are expensive to off and only if the boy is willing to go. Then he usual guys with different kids of guys that are willing to mix with the crowd. make them feel welcome. Touch but no messing around until a deal is made. work on boys English skills, maybe invest in them enough the guys can carry one a goo coversation. set a deal with them as they learn they earn more. Make them an asset to you and your guest. VIP rooms work well, if you know there are guys with money help them spend it. an upstairs veranda that is not so loud but loud enough to enjoy And low enough to carry on a real conversation. No big giveaways for the VIP room but boys are provided to help him drink his budget away or spend it on the boys to go home. Invest in your return guest, buy them a drink occasionally. There are people that are on a budget and can't afford all this, your idea is to learn who is who and who comes back regularly every 3 months or so. The ones that drop in nightly try not to loose them to a show in another place. If they think a boy there really likes them they will skip the show for the boy every time. Keep it legal ab dhave fun."The tragedy in life doesn't lie in not reaching your goal. The tradedy lies in having no goal to reach."

[latintopxxx]

Go Go bar fills up during show time and empties soon after it ends...clue? seen it happen in Pattaya and Bangkok, over and over again.
How about continuous non stop entertainment, like the stock bar in Montreal (continuos stream of boys pole stripping..), or Puchos in Costa Rica (boys dance...and I mean dance...naked on stage..then take breaks and circulate amiongst the crowd).
How about skimply attired waiters....in Budapest they even have naked waiters...
Not everyone wants to sit facing a bar watching listless boys shuffle on the stage.
Not everyone wants to be hassled by annoying mamasans pressurizing you to choose a boy.
Some of us just wanna look at some flesh for the better part of the evening before deciding ...
Simply some ideas that would definitely keep in longer in a venue consuming over priced drinks and dropping BHT50 tips..

[Neal]

Slavedriver, Joe is a good poster and I know he really does mean well. I do believe if businesses are to survive in the Boyztown area three things need to happen but I have told you this before. Businesses need to attract people that want to see something different that are straight but acceptable to everything. Not ooglers or people wanting to make fun but something different that they cannot see at home.

Unfortunately the signs need to come down so that tourists stop walking through Boyztown in large groups etc and oogle at and say "Hey look at the queers". When I sat there, on the porch, I despised that. Other tourists right awy think fag city and do an about face and run. Amusing to watch but not good for your business.

And finally, Soi 3 needs to somehow let the other bars and businesses on Soi's 1 & 2 that they are part of a Boyztown area and not some conceded group of people who think that no one else exists. To allow them, if they want to join meetings and planning and make suggestions.

[aot871]

, I agree with Neal, and one or two other posters, , I hope guys dont think im a cheap charlie , but now im retired , i am like most simalar aged guys living on a reduced income, and i think not willing to pay the inflated prices , which a lot of bars in boys town charge, Look at the cafe royale hotel rooms , they nearly all need a revamp but yet charge a pink dollar rate and very hard to get a discount , When Ian Read( GOd bless him ), was running the cafe boys town was in its prime but times change and the bars have to change with the times .

[joe552]

well, I'm sorry if I caused offence - I hadn't realised the Boyz Town business leaders were such sensitive souls. :dontknow:

..I hadn't realised the Boyz Town business leaders were such sensitive souls. :dontknow:

Not only recognisable "business leaders" Joe552 - but others who have very big fingers in the BT pie but who stay in the shadows.

:occasion9:

....in Budapest they even have naked waiters...

I believe that Action Bar has that reputation, but it's so boring that one is likely to leave before the naked waiter makes an appearance - and that is certainly been my experience on the 3 occasions I have visited.
The Action Bar offering comprises a dark room, some porn movies on monitors, and a couple of renters that the cat dragged in.

It's pretty poor stuff, and there's no more than about 3 other gay bars in the entire city (last visited about 5 yrs ago) and they are even less interesting.
Not that I'm a slut you understand but I have even tried late-night cruising on the Pest side of the Danube where the gypsy boys are supposed to hang out - and the metro stations - fuck all!

My experience has been that Budapest is a place to avoid if you are looking for any worthwhile gay activity of the kind you would fall over in Thailand.

So, to get back on topic, I don't think BT can learn much from Budapest

:occasion9:

[Janus]

Once I did some thinking about opening a disco in BT or close to. Keeping folks around all night. A stamp on your hand would allow you to go outsdide and come back all night.
The ground floor under Serene Hotel opening out to second road would be the place. Having an entrance between Serene Pup and Oscars to make the connection to the streetlife in BT and the gay area there.
:idea1:

Would you have been keeping on the Serene barboy with the neck problem and who appears to have Tourette's?

:evil4:

[bucknaway]

My last trip to Thailand was October of 2011 and I spend a much longer time than usual in Pattaya and during my stay I found that I spent more time on walking street when I wanted to be out and about to see the people in action. I could also buy some tasty street food, have a cold beer for around 100 baht while watching the sexy boxers spar. When the time came to see a show in one of the gay bars I would head over and buy my single drink and nurse it till the show was over and when and if I wanted to off a guy, I would go to a bar with better prices, have my drinks, buy drinks for the staff, hand out tips and off the person I choose.

Whenever I want to a bar with higher than average drink prices I would buy no more than one single drink and hold my wallet tight and keep it closed till I made my way out. And if I were going out with a friend, I would avoid the bars with high drink prices and take them to the bars with reasonable prices. I am there to have a good time, not to have my vacation money ripped away from me.

My other complaint is bars that would close early for whatever reason. It got so that I stopped making plans to go to those bars. No need walking away from one fun bar to go to another possible fun bar if that 2nd bar closed early.

With some exception, I see boyztown as a gay tourist trap with tourist trap prices and attitude.

[martin911]

Wooo. I like the intellectual interaction taking place in this forum. Thanks everyone ..... except the first response ..... ignore

Now let us try to get a Business Model worked out that could keep the gay identity in place yet make the business viable.

How about a gay-stright business synergy? :party


LOL your response to the second post prob is pretty much the reason you need to go online and ask for advice for what must be a declining business for you --if it was doing well you would not be here would you ??

Best of luck with the new "business model" - the backdrop seems to be declining gay tourist numbers, some bar offerings stuck in the 1980's, 2 out of 3 hotels turning to the str8 market, declining interest in go-go bars in favour of internet based liasons, and increasing customer resistance to high prices. Doesn't sound like there's much room for manoueveur.

Do any business owners really think that the gay market in BT is ever going to expand? I doubt it.
From what I see - each business is actually scrabbling for a larger slice of a shrinking cake.

:dontknow: :dontknow:

[lexusgs]

If you take a close look at how things are going in Pattaya and let's say BT in particular my guess is the whole area will be swallowed up by one of the very many aggressive new to Pattaya developers. Take your pick from Raimonland, Matrix, Heights Holdings. Tulip Group. All these guys are backed by big money investors outside Thailand and now they are turning there attention to City Centre/ Beachfront locations. Short/ Med term the whole block of BT and surroundings will probably end up as some gigantic condo complex or mid scale hotel. I don't know who the OP is but that will sort his problem I guess. The city look serious about securing long term investment and all the global hotel brands are now eying Pattaya as a major future destination for Indian/Chinese consumers. :salute:

i dont quite get where you are coming from there lexusgs .. are you saying they want to rid pattaya of gay people ??
im sure even with the lesser numbers gays still bring a hell a lot of money to the city ..
what would be the point of condos all over the place if all the entertainment has gone ..
its a party town .. get rid of the party and you lose the people .. i very much doubt boys town will disapear .. tho i have to say im not a fan .. give me sunee and jomtien anyday ..
you can forget the indians they dont like spending much and most are ignorant fucks (imho) of course .. think of them as smelly russians ..
im sure boys town will still be about long after all the different nationalitys have passed thru the iconic arch.

[lexusgs]

Brithai,

Indians are some of the smartest people in the world man. Smelly yeh but still smart. There gay awakening is just happening! No, I don't think anyone wants to get rid of gay people mate.
I've been in and out of Pattaya for the last 7 years. Right now I've been here just over a year on this visit. I nearly took a job with one the said developers and I'm just passing on a comment
that certain beachfront areas are being viewed and looked at for redevelopment. Look at where BT is located man. It's a prime area that could easily be demolished and built on close to the beach.
Just means that BT and it's residents would move to another place right???? or not?? :salute:

when talking about pattaya the indians i mention are the ones ive met in pattaya ..
only last week i was working for a lovely indian lady .. clever as you like and not at all smelly . but that was in london not pattaya ..
as for boys town moving .. do you really think that would happen ?? what would be the point of several businesses moving to a new location .. if the location they occupy now isnt working ! if boys town got built on you would lose the area and name for ever ... i think .
jomtien would be an even better place to build on as its as close to the sea but even bigger .. so that would then just leave sunee as a gay area .. time to buy that bar there.

[lexusgs]

The Indians I now see moving to Pattaya still have plenty of cash Brithai. They are just very frugal. The largest Condo project currently in play in Pattaya (Atlantis on 2nd Road Jomtien) is all Indian backed. My point is they are only just discovering Thailand. Like I said I'm just giving a my view. It's not rocket science to look at something like BT and it's adjoining sois to see it's ripe for being redeveloped. I don't have a clue if the place could be relocated. It certainly could not move to Jomtien as the rules and regs dont allow gogo's in Jomtien etc. A case in point is the Ambience Hotel. Not enough gay customers and now sensibly they are attracting different markets to keep busy. Albeit at discounted rates. It's just another sign of the slow decline of the area. After all Budha teaches nothing lasts forever right?! Maybe the writing is on the wall????

[SlaveDriver]

Let us bring the focus back to the topic ........

How do we Rebrand-Reinvent-Restructre BT?.

We do not want to surrender to either the developers or the Indians. Our focus should owners how we can

1. Be Change Agents

2. Meet the changing needs of the Tourits

3. How to create a business synergy between the gay and staright travelles and still maintain the gay identity of BT.

Come on Guys ..... Gays have the most disposable income in the world and they love Thailand as their destination.

It.s we who have failed to undersrnd the changing needs of gays, the generation gap and refusing to change. I understand baby-boomers owners of the current establishment are unable to to change to the new world. So take the back seat, hire some young-innovative Executives to manage your businesses.

Follow the examples in front of your eyes? (I dont want to mention names here becuase the old drag queens will drag on that topic than focusing on the core point of this topic). Sorry Guys I am honest here.

Now let us focus on how we can Rebrand-Reinvent-Resturcture real gay entertainment in BT.

There are very good suggestions already mentioned ..... now let us formaulate the starategy :party

Come on Guys ..... Gays have the most disposable income in the world and they love Thailand as their destination.most gays I know in Australia think Im a dirty old man because I go to Thailand for fun and the straights think I must be a pedofile.

[...most gays I know in Australia think Im a dirty old man because I go to Thailand for fun and the straights think I must be a pedofile.

You've hit the nail on the head - and the lesbians concur with the straights.

[Daniel-old]

It sounds as though I'm in the minority among board members, as I don't think Boyz Town needs to be rebranded, reinvented or restructured. When I'm on vacation, I try to split my time equally between Boyz Town and Sunee Plaza. I drink in the bars in which I enjoy spending time, judging each on its own merits. To me, there is a great deal more to 'value for money' than the price I pay for the drink.

[painai2]

I agree with Daniel, leave Boyztown just the way it is.

i agree also .. but not leaing it exactly as it is ... theres always room to put the prices down ..
if no ones coming to the bars hotels etc etc .. its because its to expensive ..
i know its not the thai way but most business there is farang owned .. so its upto them ..

Simply and bluntly - when 2 out of the 3 hotels in BT start to aggressively market (50% discount on tariff) to str8 tourists via mainstream sites like Agoda , then the area most certainly isn't going to stay "just the way it is".

:occasion9:

dont us poofs get the discounts too ?

dont us poofs get the discounts too ?

Yes Brithai, poofs and bummers are entitled to 50% discounts now that str8 people are being offered them - does that make you feel more equal :evil4:
Or does it make you cynical about the prices remaining high when the target market was poofs?
I recall paying 3500/4000B a night on the top floor of the Copa - which can now be had for around 2000B.

Of course it occurred to me when I was posting that anybody can take advantage of the new discounts- but the likely fact is that 90%+ of Agoda customers are not gay and represent a market which the hotels in question were not previously targetting. Therefore I concluded that my use of the terms "aggresively marketing" and "to str8 tourists via mainstream sites" was justified.

:occasion9:

well i never stayed there and never will so dont really care about the pricing ..but i get your point ..
but isnt that the gay sceen the world over .. im sure gays pay for for almost everything from drinks in gay bars to rooms in gay hotels .. meals in gay resturants etc etc ...
heres a good idea .. eat a meal in a straight hotel.. then wait until after you pay the bill then tell them your gay .. and run before they try to get more out of you ..
gays have always been ripped off .. and mainly by gay owners of hotels bars n all .. so fucked if i care to much if they go out of business..not you daboss .. your the best :tongue3:

Yes, you're right - that's always been the case and gay guys have tolerated it because those places catered almost exclusively for gays who realised that the smaller market = higher prices. To put it another way - it was a price worth paying to discourage str8 patronage.

I don't have any problem whatsoever with Ambiance or Copa targetting the str8 market - it's their businesses, not mine - and I realise that to do that requires a substantial reduction in room tariffs. That's fine, no problem at all. I just wonder if it might have been an idea to try extending 50% discounting to the poofs before they jumped into bed with the 90%+ str8 market who use hotel discount websites :dontknow: :dontknow:

What I'm saying though is that I believe it will inevitably have an effect on BT - and that contrary to what a previous poster wished, I can not see BT remaining "just as it is".
Time will tell, but str8 tourists do not want to see elderly men fawning over young (looking) bar boys - and in the current climate they are not afraid to vocalise that.
I believe that bad publicity and maybe even confrontations will occur.
Gay men will also feel uncomfortable if they feel they are being "watched" - some will stay elsewhere instead and some of the BT gay revellers will head to Sunee or other areas.

:occasion9:

well i have to agree with everything you have said .. do you have any thoughts as to why they didnt do as you said
i.e. reduce prices for the gay punters ?? or even why they dont do it now .. as you say theres not much point in a gay area if you have no gay people in it !!!
then again if most of the gays in the bars are straight .. maybe straights is the way forward .... tit so they say .. i think it means totally fucked up ...

I can only assume Brithai that their judgement was that the likes of Agoda filling their rooms all year round - even at discounted rates - beats filling it with poofs @ top dollar in mid-November to mid-February (which is more or less what "High Season" in BT has deteriorated to nowadays).
I did not see or hear about any serious attempt to discount to the gay market (at least not at the levels now being offered via Agoda) - but I'm willing to stand corrected if anybody else saw marketing campaigns etc :dontknow:

They are all smart businessmen - if they could generate sufficient gay business to keep the hotels running at high occupancy and full tariff then they'd go for it - because we spend more per capita, so the assumption must be that they don't feel it is possible.
I guess they have just looked at dwindling numbers over the past few years and believed they were flogging a dead horse keeping it "gay".

:hello2:

flogging a gay horse ... that might work !!! im sure a few members would pay to see that ..
but i guess you are right .. tho with the amount of hotels in pattaya these days im sure they will end up with loads of empty straight rooms as empty gay rooms .. who knows not me.

[Neal]

Are they all still advertising to the gay market or just asking questions to forum members cause they don't advertise on this board and we attract a lot of visitors and the ads here are cheap. I have always been known as a cheap date! :sign5:

[joe552]

You asked me to take you out to Cafe des Amis - so you're not that cheap a date :occasion9:

When are you coming? Not sure it is possible if soon as I still cannot see without getting dizzy. :crybaby:

[joe552]

I was reluctant to join in this discussion again, after my first remarks were so well received. But I still feel that posting on a board like this looking for suggestions to improve business in the area is just some kind of ploy by business owners there to counter the feeling among gay men that we are not as welcome as before, because there is a new cash cow in the market - the Russians and Indians, for example.

[joe552]

I arrive Pattaya evening of 6 June - the anniversary of D Day :party

[lonelywombat]

Are they all still advertising to the gay market or just asking questions to forum members cause they don't advertise on this board and we attract a lot of visitors and the ads here are cheap. I have always been known as a cheap date! :sign5:



I strongly disagree. It is not only the health of the hotel but I feel there is responsibility to the "GAY" area The fact they will offer 60% discounts to sites like Agoda but not mention the GAY Area details staggers me.

http://www.agoda.com/asia/thailand/patt ... views.html

Deluxe superior rooms $76 special rate $30

De Luxe superior room $103 special rate $41

A VIP has stated he will die first before the Boyztown sign is removed from the street corner. Why does he not talk to the new Ambiance owners for special gay deals, to be advertised here.

My suggestion is to look at the latest gay map of Boyztown and consider the flow on impact ,of a full gay guesthouse. Think of the cash flow as well.

http://www.nickysgaypattaya.com/gay-pat ... -boyztown/

[Wesley]

Its like I said I can party all night on half the money it takes to go out in he Philippines and only 2 hours difference, I can get there will Asia miles or Delta miles either one. be sure waiters call me to ask me what night I plan to go out and if they can wait on me, they drum up their own business if they expect a decent tip. I don't tip any more than an ordinary American but since the locals don't tip at all the guys will break their back to serve me for the night, if you had waiters like that and a good time, but there you party from 8 PM to 5 AM. so you can really get around to several places. I try to avoid the bars with high cover charges unless I am on a date and want to stay with the same guy that night. if so I go early to get a table and party like hell all night. then its a little nap two aspirin and shower then sex all day.. why all say well you get home just in time for a shower to get the smoke off and ready for some steamy sex safer a steamy shower with a steamy boy.

A on site Sauna is interesting. one thing important to me is a good clean bathroom. I liked one after bar location whee they would massage you wile you stand at the urinal. Fine ine you like and invite him to your table or wait for the hunt. I love the hunt. its almost as much fun as catching he boy as it is enjoying him.(not meant as a put down) For me body language will get you a long way no matter what country. a Philippine can carry on a conversation with his eyebrows.

[a447]

Lonelywombat, you will be pleased to know that I managed at last to "have the front" to bring up the topic of the Ambiance no longer being gay. Gosh, it took a lot of courage on my part! I guess someone has to ask the hard questions if you are not willing to. :sign5:

If truth be known, it took a while to corner one of the Swiss managers as he was always chatting with other guests. I think his name is Marcus - the buff guy. He is a really lovely guy - a true gentleman. He explained that under his watch, the hotel would always be predominently gay, but as the gay scene has changed around the world - i.e. gays and straights socialising together - and as the old client base dies off or is too old to travel, they had to make a business decision and advertise on the internet. Same goes for the other gay businesses in Boyztown - there aren't enough gays to sustain them. And when you come to think of it, bars have been accepting straight couples and women for a number of years now. Sometimes in Soi twilight, male customers are outnumbered by females! That is the way of the world.

it is interesting to note, however, that the verandahs of both the Ambiance and le Cafe Royale are populated soley by gays. Although straights are now amongst us, they tend to piss off somewhere else and leave us to sit on the verandah and ogle the gorgeous guys as they walk past. And guys with their "boys"come and go, so to speak, all day long at the Ambiance and no-one bats an eyelid.

And I saw an ad for the Ambiance the the Thai Puan magazine, so they are still chasing our dollar.

Yes, a447 - of course they will still market to us benders - they want to have their cake and eat it!

Now, we can see what discount they offer to the 90%+ non-gay market through the likes of Agoda - but what discount were they advertising to Gay customers via Thai Puan magazine?

If you were referring to the advertorial in Issue 48 - that I can see in their online edition - the answer is zero i.e. they quote their normal low season rates.

:bounce:

[lonelywombat]

Lonelywombat, you will be pleased to know that I managed at last to "have the front" to bring up the topic of the Ambiance no longer being gay. Gosh, it took a lot of courage on my part! I guess someone has to ask the hard questions if you are not willing to. :sign5:

And I saw an ad for the Ambiance the the Thai Puan magazine, so they are still chasing our dollar.

Just the first and last paras of your thread. It is great that you had your conversation but what he said about the gay market has dropped off, rather than looking to revive the gay market, is part of the problem.

I don't know what it costs to advertise in Thai Puan magazine. They are advertising in a gay Thailand based magazine.I rarely see it in Pattaya and don't get it sent to me. But surely it is not free?

There appears to be the attitude that the old gay scene is dead, cannot recover.

Hopefully you can ask before you leave, why not an occasional post to sawatdee ,showing the gay world they still believe in the gay trade and want us back. It will be free.

In the meantime I will promote Ambiance from time to time to get things started.

Enjoy Bangkok, have enjoyed all your posts this trip

[gerefan2]

Reference earlier complaints that these hotels are concealing that they are gay...

Well I have just looked up both the Ambiance and Copa Hotels on Agoda and their write ups, on that site, clearly state that they are in the Gay Village (BT). Below are two extracts from the Ambiance entry on Agoda...but I dont now how long these quotes have been on that website.


Surrounded by numerous gay & straight nightclubs, bars and pubs, guests can roll for fun filled evenings and nights.


There is simply no boundary between sexes within this free and outgoing hotel.

You would have to be pretty thick not to realise they are gay hotels.

The rates given on Agoda are about the same as going directly to their respective websites.

Therefore, I conclude they are not concealing the fact that they are gay and are offering the same rates to gays and str8s (direct thru their websites or Agoda).

Happy...?

Gerefan2 - No, I'm not happy with at least 50% of your "explanation"

I don't know about the "hidden gay" aspect or otherwise (and I haven't commented on that ) but I do think you have defective vision as far as the rates are concerned.

Before I posted yesterday I took the time to check the Ambiance rates on Agoda against their own website rates - at random I chose 7 days in September. For every room type it was cheaper on Agoda than directly (from memory 200-500B per night depending on room)

For Copa the price difference was (from memory again) from 100B - up to a whopping 1800B per room per night depending on room type.

Would you care to dispute this? Please feel free.

As far as I'm concerned, the message is clear - both hotels want to market to the 90%+ str8 Agoda customers at discounted prices and market to their gay customers at higher/regular prices through gay magazines and websites like Thai Puan etc., which direct the reader to their own (higher-priced) website.
There's nothing wrong with varying rates - the vast majority of hotels do this - it's the gay/str8 division here that causes annoyance to some.
The solution is clear - any gay guys wanting to stay in these hotels and who want to access the "straight rates", ought to book through discount websites like Agoda (as I'm sure many do).

:occasion9:

[aot871]

It seems to me that of the 3 so called gay hotels in boys town , the only one still offering no discount from their normal rates, is the cafe royale , and to my mind thats the one who should . Top rates for rooms which need a 100%revamp, you must be joaking.. Come on Tom, ? get Craig to spend some cash, and bring some life back to your hotel

[Neal]

Remember, for reservations anywhere in the world, click on our goda ads and help support this forum!

[gerefan2]

Scotty...


Before I posted yesterday I took the time to check the Ambiance rates on Agoda against their own website rates - at random I chose 7 days in September. For every room type it was cheaper on Agoda than directly (from memory 200-500B per night depending on room)



Would you care to dispute this? Please feel free.


Yes you have screwed up...

There are three types of room on the Agoda website for Copa and the prices are EXACTLY the same as on the Copa website.

I suspect you have omitted to go to page 2 of the Agoda website (clik on book) where you will find Taxes and Charges. When these are taken into account you will see that the two website prices are INDENTICAL.

If you give me details of the room with the 1800 Bt discrepency I will look into that. I cannot see any rooms where this could happen.

Now with reference to the Ambiance you will see, in the small print, that they do Rates for weekly or longer stays. Agoda doesnt do this so, in fact, the Hotels website prices are probably better than Agoda.

Now can I have the other 50% of my explanation back please?

..There are three types of room on the Agoda website for Copa

Yes, there are NOW - because the Penthouse Suite has now been taken off Agoda!
Yesterday and this morning (up till 9.00am GMT) there were FOUR types!


... and the prices are EXACTLY the same as on the Copa website.

Really? See below.


...I suspect you have omitted to go to page 2 of the Agoda website (clik on book) where you will find Taxes and Charges....

I looked at headline rates - Agoda does not include taxes in the headline rate, but neither does Ambiance which has this at the bottom of the page. "All the above rates are excluding 7% VAT and breakfast" :dontknow: :dontknow:
The Copa website states that the promotional prices (see below) are subject to 7% tax too.
So I don't really understand your point - it seems to me that neither Agoda nor the 2 hotel websites include "charges" in their headline prices.
And, no, I can't be bothered going through the booking process for every type of room at both hotels on all three websites.
Agoda is + charges, Ambiance is + charges, and Copa is + charges


...If you give me details of the room with the 1800 Bt discrepency I will look into that. I cannot see any rooms where this could happen.
I can't - because the Penthouse suite room option has been removed today from Agoda - that was where the biggest price difference was.
BUT I admit I may have mistakenly compared the 2 bedroom Penhouse Suite (3800 + tax on Copa Website) with the (now removed) Penthouse Suite on Agoda which was around 2000B = that made up my 1800B difference. If I did make this error (and I can't check now because the PS has been removed) then it brings the discepancy down to 800B from the 1800B I originally thought


...Now with reference to the Ambiance you will see, in the small print, that they do Rates for weekly or longer stays. Agoda doesnt do this so, in fact, the Hotels website prices are probably better than Agoda.
But that's not much use if you don't want to stay for a week a longer, is it?
Plus, I see they offer 10% off for paying in cash - I haven't included this because you can't pay Agoda in cash so it's an unfair comparison IMHO.

September dates @ Ambiance Both tariffs are stated as being + charges

AGODA RATES /Ambiance Website
Superior Room 935B /1090B
Dexluxe Superior 1274B /1490B
Deluxe Suite 2209B /2590B
Penthouse suite 2379B /2790B


September dates @ Copa - both tariffs are stated as being + charges

AGODA RATES /Copa Website
Superior Deluxe 1000B /1100B
Exec Double 1274B /1400B
Exec Suite 2091B /2300B
Penthouse Suite
REMOVED FROM
AGODA SINCE
TODAY
(from memory) 2000B /2800B

Look gerefan2 - I am not out to "get" anybody's business - I have posted the prices I found online in the 3 websites, in good faith.
As I said, I may have mixed up the 2 different "Penthouses" at Copa - if so, I hold my hands up to that - but there was still a substantial difference like for like.
If you can show me I'm wrong in the prices above, then I will happily edit out the prices I have stated - and where the edit is time-barred I will ask a moderator to do it.

[gerefan2]

Scotty
I have recalculated and theres is a small difference, I agree (but not several hundred bt you come up with). Below is a table of what you ACTUALLY pay (but just for the first table in your post). The same applies to the other tables.

AGODA WEBSITE
Superior Room 935+165 charges = 1100 Bt
De Luxe Superior 1274+225 charges = 1499 Bt
De Luxe Suite 2209+391 charges = 2600 Bt
Penthouse 2379=420 charges = 2799 Bt

AMBIANCE WEBSITE ...............DIFFERENCE
1090+7% = 1166Bt ........ 66 Bt
1490+7% = 1594 Bt........ 95 Bt
2590+7% = 2771 Bt........ 171Bt
2790+7% =2985 Bt........ 186 Bt

You do need to read the "Book it" page for the real prices (just like Ryanair)!!

You will see from the above that, for some reason, Agoda want 17.6 % charges wheras the Ambiance charge 7% on top. Ive no idea why. This accounts for the difference in our calculations.

As you might expect there is a very small advantage booking thru Agoda.
Peace.

OK gerefan2, I'll accept what you say about "extras" - I was unaware that Agoda add 17.6% charges.

:hello2:

[newyorkgeorge]

Anyway, to answer Slave Driver's question - I don't think Boyztown can rebrand/reinvent/restructure - in my view it's dying a slow death and is effectively finished - it has been a gradual decline over the past 10 years especially, and I really believe it's only a matter of time until there are only 3 or 4 "gay" venues left in Boyztown

Really, i went to the Copa tonight, and i couldn't get a seat for the show, so how dead is that? do any of you people actually live in Thailand, or go to these Soi's? because you appear to have a completely different perspective on the place than those who are here?

[joe552]

george, was the audience mainly gay men or asian tour groups? I think it makes a difference to the discussion here.

thanks for the great news george .. its great to know that boys town is alive and kicking .. its good to know we was so so stupid to belive the declining numbers was anything other than a blip .. there you are in the middle of a sell out show .. im proud of you proving everything is still rosey in paradise ...
i hope you can continue to let us know we was all so dumb to question the very exhistance of boystown ...
in fact i belive a plaque is in order .... your name the date and time of your post .. in a blue circle ... at both entrances to boystown to tell the world YOU was the man who dispelled the myth all was not well in paradise ...
can you go to sunee plaza tomorrow george and let the world know all the bars in the plaza are also jammed out .. maybe even get a plaque there too ...
i shall sleep well tonight knowing all is good in the world .. and all because you had to stand to watch the show tonight ..
who said life had to be hard ....
george i slaute you .. my hero :salute:

[lonelywombat]

As I opened the forum, the ad for Boyzboyzboyz stood out like a beacon at the top of the page. However that was arranged with Madam J and not with the hotel owners.

I was present at CafeRoyale in October when David stated they would never ever advertise with Sawatdee. There was no doubt about that. I have not met the owners of Copa nor the new owners of Ambiance,which is now almost 2 years now.

Is it part of the cartel the three do not advertise or promote their places. I get almost daily google printouts from several small websites that promote Copa, and to a lesser degree CafeRoyale. Maybe they cannot afford to pay?????

I still stand by my suggestion that for 2 drinks in the second show they offer go go boys for half rates to stimulate business.

[martin911]

My lord Britt you dont mince your words do you ??
Myself i stayed one nite in Cafe R about 10 years ago and that was enough -- wild horses would not drag me back to stay in Boystown --Its too much like a fishbowl --

[Neal]

OK since you brought David up as the old owner of Oscars and night manager of LeCafe Royale the reason he said that was because I did not mince words when prior I posted to this forum that I thought it was the dumbest idea for the owners of LeCafe Royal to hire him to be the night manager. I continued on with saying that he could not even fix up a small outside bar like Oscar's and draw a great crowd how the hell was he supposed to help run a big place like Le Cafe Royale?! It was further proven to me when they started the bar b ques on Sunday nights. David would wobble down to Oscar's every chance he got and leave LeCafe Royale unattended and while he was attending to his bar all the boys would run over to LeCafe Royale and steal all the food as there was no accounting for it as it was all you could eat. It was pathetic. David, who cares where you want to advertise, just get back into that huge duck costume and waddle away!! Now that Oscars is sold maybe they can fix it up and draw cuatomers and David can do his best and sit at Cafe Royale!

[newyorkgeorge]

george, was the audience mainly gay men or asian tour groups? I think it makes a difference to the discussion here.
Mixed i would say, but why would it matter, i went to look at the show, not the audience

[newyorkgeorge]

thanks for the great news george .. its great to know that boys town is alive and kicking .. its good to know we was so so stupid to belive the declining numbers was anything other than a blip .. there you are in the middle of a sell out show .. im proud of you proving everything is still rosey in paradise ...
i hope you can continue to let us know we was all so dumb to question the very exhistance of boystown ...
in fact i belive a plaque is in order .... your name the date and time of your post .. in a blue circle ... at both entrances to boystown to tell the world YOU was the man who dispelled the myth all was not well in paradise ...
can you go to sunee plaza tomorrow george and let the world know all the bars in the plaza are also jammed out .. maybe even get a plaque there too ...
i shall sleep well tonight knowing all is good in the world .. and all because you had to stand to watch the show tonight ..
who said life had to be hard ....
george i slaute you .. my hero :salute:
Oooh! so bitter! i assume by your username you are a Brit, so i don't blame you for being jealous, stuck in a recession hit freezing cold country, oh well, i will continue to enjoy "paradise" and yes, i did go to Sunee the other night, it was dead!

[joe552]

The nature of the audience matters because the thread is discussing the rebranding of Boyz Town. If the majority of customers are mixed Asian tour groups rather than gay men, who have been the traditional target market, that tells us something about the marketing of these venues. In my view, at least.

[UncleTom]

The nature of the audience matters because the thread is discussing the rebranding of Boyz Town. If the majority of customers are mixed Asian tour groups rather than gay men, who have been the traditional target market, that tells us something about the marketing of these venues. In my view, at least.
I don't think I have ever seen a "tour group" in any of the Pattayaland bars. You see them being led up the street but not going in any of the bars, they would miss their coach.

Wonder why don't take them to Jomtien Complex?

....Wonder why don't take them to Jomtien Complex?

They haven't cleared it with jinks @ The Venue.

:occasion9:

[Neal]

I don't think I have ever seen a "tour group" in any of the Pattayaland bars. You see them being led up the street but not going in any of the bars, they would miss their coach.


Some groups do go into the bars as they want to see something different that they can't see at home. two that I recall vividly..... a group of about 30 young Chinese girls piled into Happy Place. I expected the to come right out but NO, they opened about 4 cases of Heineken and shared and partied with the customers all night for three nights in a row.

The one that was the most hysterical was a group of about 25 older Jewish women from Jerusalem! Went in to the bar and sat down to see the show. I quickly ran in to cancel the big cock show and the S&M scene!! :sign5: They had a great time and we enjoyed having them. See sometimes it benefits the bar to be open to everyone especially showtime.

Speaking of showtime, we have introduced a 12 midnight big cock show if you don't make it to the 10:30 pm show.

newyorkgeorgyboy .... what on earth makes you think im bitter ???
its more the case of me not understanding the need for self publicity that you know as well as i do no one is going to belive...
the reason i dont get it is thus ... you tell me your bar is totally banged out ... wall to wall punters .. so for me if i did belive it and i wanted to go i wouldnt bother ... whats the point of going to a bar thats so crowded that its going to be uncomfortable ?? you need to work a bit harder than making pointless remarks on here to get people into your bar ...
very clever of you to work out im british . english actually .. sure my countrys up the shitter .. but i cant say it bothers me to much .. im not hard up . so ill live another day ... its also not that cold today altho a bit wet ... still again never mind we have our 2 weeks of summer coming up soon ..

2 weeks? - LUXURY!

2 weeks? - LUXURY!
indeed scotty see how much better things are down south :) you'll have your 20 minutes with no rain im sure ... i hope ...

[martin911]

"Bitter "is putting it mildly --

[christianpfc]

we have our 2 weeks of summer coming up soon ..
You call that summer? I studied in England for 3 years, and there was no season that could be called "summer" by German standards.

[joe552]

oh oh, this could get nasty :violent1:

[Sooty]

We have summer storms occasionally. But perhaps you were looking for Stormtroopers? (My friend Basil Fawlty said not to mention the war but I think I got away with it).

[aussie_]

I don't think I have ever seen a "tour group" in any of the Pattayaland bars. You see them being led up the street but not going in any of the bars, they would miss their coach.

Asian tour groups were filling Wild West Boys bar at show time on a regular basis when I visited Pattaya in January. They had tickets for drinks so I gather it was organised with the bar.

The way the quotation appears above is a little misleading - Joe did not say that, it was UncleTom.

[joe552]

thanks, scottish-guy, got in there just before me. :notworthy:

probably not the first time, either. :occasion9:

That's why you find the boys are all stretched out when it's your turn.

:party

[joe552]

yeah right - dream on. :occasion9:

he meant stretchered out joe ... once they stick their heads under his kilt .. not many reapear :tongue3:

[joe552]

nice one :sign5:

Getting back to Boystown - I went there last week, more out of habit than anything else - and was quite frankly bored, I sat and had a drink or two in Panorama bar and watched the so called gay world go by (interupted by Japanese tour groups what seemed to be every 15 minutes or so, coming through two by two with the flag waving leader heading up the charge :-( it actually started to really bug me after a while as I started to feel like an attraction at a zoo (or a freak show) as opposed to just a gay guy sitting having a drink in a gay village somewhere in the world.

But it led me to think a) why am I sitting here and b) why are THEY walking through here and I came to the following conclusions - a) I was there out of habit and because it's meant to be a gay village type thing but on looking round me I sat and wondered what EXACTLY was so "gay" about the place at all, ok so yes it had a few bars with (mainly older) gay guys sitting around either alone or with their Thai friend, all ignoring each other and also had a load of usually bored massage guys hanging around. They also had a two bars with cabaret shows ( but only at set times) versions of which I'd seen a 100 times before and who on my entering charge me ┬г4 or ┬г5 quid for a beer on each and every drink I bought, whether there was a show on or not. There were also of course a few dated and dreary go go bars dotted around offering guys if that's what I wanted, but with the advent of electronic media finding a guy in Pattaya isn't that difficult anymore perhaps and if not wanting to actually "off" a guy then sitting in a go go bar is only fun for so long I find (if at all) as the atmosphere is usually crap (which the possible excetion of one bar that I won't mention).

Then the reason the tour groups come - because I think that they THINK that there's loads happening there and as they simply walk up the soi without stopping all get the idea ( or are told) that behind those blackened out go go bar doors all sorts goes on and all the gay guys and massage guys are about to break into some sexy crazed orgy at any minute just after we leave - and so the myth replicates itself on to the next tour group and to the next person they tell when they get home about their going up this mad crazy gay street in Thailand and so it goes on ...... without any basis in actual fact.

And will I go back there on my next trip if I go to Pattaya again ? - yes probably, because I'm a creature of habit but I'm guessing nothing much will have changed - and maybe in the over all scheme of things that's ok actually and I quite like the same sameyness of it all - until I actually get there and become bored again and wonder what I'm doing there exactly again.

But in the long term it can't be a good policy for the business owners there as compared to other gay areas of the world ( Barcelona etc) BT's is a million years behind the trend, no "trendy" gay bars, no cool (younger) people, no gay fashion outlets, no "chic" restaurants etc etc - all of which the typcial younger gay traveller "expects" to see as the norm in gay resorts these days - just a couple of very average boring bars, two shows and a few go go bars, which if you didn't go in to you would walk past and hardly notice existed.

And believe it or not the above is not intended as any sort of attack on BT's as I really hope it gets the up lift it so badly needs as any area that gay people can go and relax and feel welcome and have fun is to be welcomed and cherised, but lets hope that's sooner and not later / too late.

[joe552]

an interesting post, NIrish Guy - I haven't been there for a year but my memory is pretty much as you describe. Last holiday I spent more time in Sunee, simply because it felt more like a 'gay area'.

I think most so called gay sceans become boring if you see them too much....in manchester we've had tour groups walking up and down canal street for years ever since it was in the tv series " Queer as folk"...and we often said we feel like were in a zoo plus all the straights that take it over at weekends.
The same decline has happend in manchester and what used to be the buisiest gay scean in the world in the 90's is now dead in the week and needs the week end buisness
i put it down to people having less money and moving on to do other things in thier lives..its not a novelty any more
but having said all that i'd still rather be in Thailand and all it has to offer.