gentrification

[Rob33]

I am wondering what other people think about this.

I went to Thailand mostly Bangkok very recently after a gap of about I suppose a year and bit. I used to go very often as I was working in Malaysia on brief assignments that allowed me to travel a bit in between. Anyway something is very different about the place thia time, it was Chinese new year when I was there so had it's share of happenings but otherwise all seemed very quite, Im not speaking of a rut as such but it just missed that joie d'vivre Im so used to. I dont think the floods were still high up in peoples minds either and politicaly things are flattish.

Many of the places I know and returned to have also lost it. In place of what were lively robust gay scene type places I found boring designer italian restaurants and apartments suddenly populated by very ordinary straight middle thai class students. Is Bangkok rapidly turning middle class at the expense of the true Bangkok version of a fun city, international school locals awash with gap years and new motor cars.

Somethings up the good looking guys seem to be all finding jobs in this upmarket wave, none left for sanuk? Or has the world economic situation somehow changed the shape of Bangkok, not so tourist reliant anymore?

Just thought of something maybe its just development picking up again.

[springco]

Rob 33, I think you have hit on something here.
I too would be eager to hear the views of others on this issue.
As far as I am concerned, all the so-called "improvements" and gentrifications made to districts, cities and places around the world have made them far more sterile, uninteresting, and boring. I first visited Bangkok in 1979 and I have watched it become a more uninteresting place over the years. It hasn't completely lost it yet, but that is only by comparison to what other places used to be, and I am thinking of those that have been completely destroyed in the name of "progress", "development" and "growth". When I think back to my time spent with boys in places as far flung as Piccadilly, Bahnhof Zoo, Selma & Las Palmas, the Terderloin, Times Square and 42nd Street, Baltimore (!!!), Manila, Pagsanjan, the Waterfront in Lisbon, Brazil's Receife, Naples, Tunisia, Tangier, Casablanca, and Beirut, just to scratch the surface, I could sit down and cry.

[Brad the Impala]

Everything was so much more interesting before they started using electricity

[cdnmatt]

What's the AVERAGE working boy in say Pattaya make? Around probably 10 - 15,000/month? Plus, cost of living is probably a little higher, albeit not much in Pattaya.

Yeah, that wouldn't be anywhere close enough to convince most people to leave home, and sell their bodies in a bar. Maybe 10 years ago that was enough, but not now. Hell, just illegal logging can pay 5000/day.

... illegal logging can pay 5000/day.

Some kind of Scat fetish?

And why's it illegal - consenting adults and all...

[Rob33]

Yes development can certainly kill the heart of a place but I thought Bangkok mainly due to the Asian collapse '97 was saved all that, and just in the nick of time.

Yes I suppose prosperity, less poverty would mean less people from poor provinces in the sex industry, but to be honest I hadn't see a sudden jump from poverty to prosperity anywhere only perhaps in parts of Bang Kok and even here this has surprised me.

So despite political turmoil world economic downturn and recent horrendous floods the country is all steam ahead? Could this be new Chinese money doing the floating, is this Asia under the influence of the Chinese economy, not very exciting if it is?

I felt honestly like there just wasn't the same lust for life. Usually by the second day I have a little entourage of delightful Thais all eager to embroil me in naughtiness.

Even when I walked passed the balcony I mean "The Balcony" (club and bar) I didn't even feel like stopping the whole area feels like someone has squeezed all the life out of it, all I saw were a number of elderly looking western European bored faces so just kept walking. I thought Ooops must be the time of night but it was exactly the same the next night when I went a bit later on the Saturday.

Oh well I suppose things move on so where oh where are the hot spots now in Thailand or Bangkok. What a pity they closed that night market area near Lumpini stadium it was just begining to lose that edge of respectibility and infect areas close by.

[Rob33]

Everything was so much more interesting before they started using electricity

Hahahaha very good and Im sure it was.

[Dick]

The difference between now and 'before' is one castrophe after another seriously damaging Thai tourism. With 'no cutsomer' to pump money into the economies of Bangkok and Pattaya as examples, many of the boys and girls that would have been working in the cites remain or have returned home in the Provinces. As a result those cities have lost much of their vibrancy. Yellow and red shirts as well as government and 'Toxin' must all share blame. The optimism that city 'tourism' workers once had has been replaced with melancholy. I've no figures to support but that's my take on it.

[Rob33]

Dick I think you have put your finger on it. The floods the final blow.

Yes many would have fled to the provinces after and during the flood if they could and the instant and complete drying up of the tourist industry during this time has led to a rather sad Bangkok. If you think about it many many people too working in the informal sector in Bangkok would have lost their meagre means of making a living outright.

Its so sad you know I think I realise now why it is the middle classes that are standing out so starkly because they were the ones who came out of all this relatively unscathed.

I suppose in the provinces you can plant vegetables keep chickens, rice etc return to the land and close family life for protection and survival. It might be difficult then to reverse this especially if things are still slow in Bangkok, maybe there isn't the will as people once demoralised like being back with their families. Replacing one struggle with another so soon might be just too much. I wonder for people from the poorest provinces like Isan how they are coping. Is Thailand needing food aid?

Has there been a return to illegal logging as suggested? I wasn't sure if that was serious but I suppose it is plausible if the markets for Thai wood are quietly opening up again, China cant get through enough precious woods.

All thing added up Bangkok must have been devastated more thoroughly than I thought, possibly it will take time a long time maybe even a generation to regain its former playful and confident self?

I wonder how this plays out in the politics of the country?

Could "Toxin" become the flavour again as despicable an idea as that is he has instant appeal out in the provinces where people are the most vulnerable to his tricks again now. What I have never understood is how "Toxins" daughter was ever so easily tolerated I mean once you have tasted Toxin surely you don't come back if there is even the tiniest possibility you will get more? I mean flooding people out to save central Bangkok is surely toxic enough?

[anonone]

I would have to disagree that tourism has fallen off dramatically. The number of pax coming thru BKK is rising, as evidenced by the whole DMK revamp and immigration lines. The type of tourist is changing, but I think th numbers are up.

I cannot speak to the changes over time, as I am a fairly new visitor.

[Rob33]

I noticed as a regular pre flood visitor a very big and tangible difference. The type of tourist? Who do you mean? I notice more Russians than ever before but I dont think they have been hit across the board quite so much economically as other countries in Europe for example, I cant quite honestly decipher if its top end or low end tourism but all in all it seems flat out there in the streets.

Maybe package tourism is up, I didn't go to any hot spots, did all that the first visit.

I had hardly any wait at airport customs which is a very big change normally it takes hours and hours. Maybe its the improvements you mention but how does that mean more tourists though?

I have no idea about actual tourist numbers I do know the gay part seems dead as compared to before. Just not the same rush an sparkle. Some areas are definately not what they used to be.

Maybe the middle classes have simply being growing steadily into new ever widening areas . :dontknow:

Ooooh shudder imagine Thais behaving like entiltled spoilt Western yobs.