A Thai Boys Self-Image

[Dodger]

One of the many things that intrigue me about Thais in general is the significance they place on тАЬsaving face.тАЭ IтАЩve never been confused about the general notion of a person not wanting to lose face as this is a common behavioral trait even in our own western cultures, although to the Thais, the significance of protecting both their public and self-image by not losing face takes on a whole new meaning.

In the earlier years of my relationship with Thep - lies would flow from his lips with the grace and harmony of song lyrics from a love ballad flowing from a singers lips, and done so without missing a beat or hint of insincerity. Later he would make amends for his lies in one way or another, but actually admitting to telling a lie never once entered his conscious mind. In ThepтАЩs eyes - protecting his own self-image was just as important, or possibly even more important than protecting his public image. The mystery as to why this was the case took several more years to begin to unravel.

Below is some interesting writing on the same subject published by sex.com who are to be credited here:

Culture of Face and Shame
Thailand is a society that operates around the construction and presentation of positive images (phap-phot) and in which public exposure of a reality (khwam-jing) that contradicts these images, even when its truth is widely known, is often a source of scandal. In some cases, such as lese majesty laws relating to defamation of the monarchy, Thai law punishes those who damage the public image of a hallowed institution, even when the revelation may be generally known to be true. In Thailand truth is only occasionally a sufficient justification for publicly exposing an unpleasant reality. Those Thais who "buck the system", "make waves" or draw attention to the contradictions between public images and private realities, are often subjected to legal and extra-legal sanctions, and "going public" on a controversial issue can be a dangerous enterprise in Thailand. For example, Thai journalists writing about local political and business affairs for regional newspapers have historically suffered high assassination rates, with local "godfathers" (jao-phor), "influential figures" (khon mi itthiphon) and "dark forces" (amnat meut) allegedly with connections to the military, police, local government and business interests often dominating local affairs. Interpreting Thai politics, society and culture is therefore a complex and often tedious task of piecing together disparate facts, and there is often a disparity between what one needs to know in order to be an informed observer of Thai affairs and what it is possible to publish or say in public.

In everyday life, Thais rarely judge their actions by any abstract criterion of right or wrong, sin, or virtue. Instead, within the culture of maintaining positive images, they are much more concerned with how they appear to others and how they measure up to others' expectations. Thus, "rightness" and "wrongness" tend to be socially specific rather than morally abstract notions within Thai culture, being more closely aligned with notions of propriety than of sin.

In this context, loss of face is often a devastating experience for a Thai man or woman. Loss of face is much more than an embarrassment, because it means that one has been judged inappropriate, whether in action, appearance or word, and entails loss of the esteem of others. Thai has a rich vocabulary to refer to shame and embarrassment that draws on the notion of "face" (na); for example, sia na ("to have one's face damaged") тАУ to lose face; khai na ("to sell one's face") тАУ to lose face, to do something shameful; na na ("to be thick faced") тАУ to be thick-skinned, to be shameless or untouched by other's views of one's behaviour; na taek ("for one's face to break") тАУ to suffer a minor embarrassment.

The importance of keeping up appearances, and the presentation of a public face of politeness, unobtrusiveness, calmness, and respectfulness, is, as Daniel Wit (1968:61-62) observes, not just a phenomenon of social interaction, but something that influences many Thais' self-image.

A Thai does not wish to lose "face"тАФbe obviously embarrassed or otherwise have his dignity or status impaired. This attitude may go so far as his not wanting to engage in a private self-analysis whose result might be inimical to his own self image.

When so much social value is placed on conforming to expectations of appropriateness, there is very little support for expressions of individuality or eccentricity within traditional Thai culture. In Thailand "being oneself" or "finding oneself" are not culturally sanctioned pursuits, or justifications for individual or eccentric behaviour. Being appropriate or conforming is by far the dominant social ethic. The Thai individual does exist but, in Niels Mulder's (1979:108) words, he "is used to seeing himself and others as members of groups or according to the social attributes of position". In a society based on collective or group values, what others think of oneтАФand not simply how others act in relation to oneтАФbecomes a significant social force for ensuring conformity. Loss of face or social standing is consequently often perceived as a personal tragedy, and so the threat of loss of face exerts a major coercive force.

All credit for the above belong to Sexworks.com

[topjohn5]

One of the things I find interesting is in the west we feel that catching someone in a lie is not only damning for whatever that lie was about but also taints other things that that lie wasn't about..........we tend to use catching someone in a lie a huge gotcha and use it frequently as a hammer to assume other things are wrong.
Thais on the other hand take being caught in a lie as nearly insignificant and it's almost as if they see no relationship to the lie and what was lied about. In other words we take it too far and they don't take it far enough, lol.
It makes for some interesting dialog... I keep saying; "but you lied" and that statement is totally ignored. I say it again and it's ignored again as if I was saying "the sky is blue". Even if you get an acknowledgement that indeed I lied, which is rare, it seems that it is viewed as not pertinent to the discussion. This is true even if the discussion is about lying, hahahaha.

[christianpfc]

The correct link is this one: http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/modernculture.html

The text continues, it changes the subject, but stays interesting:


Thai Sexual Culture
Buddhism isolates desire and craving, of whatever character, as the roots of evil and the cause of the human suffering from which it seeks salvation. Nevertheless, there is a surprisingly pragmatic attitude to sexual activity among Thai laypeopleтАФmonks being strictly celibate. There is no self-disciplinary or self-denying attitude to sex among men in Thailand. Sexual impulses are commonly viewed as a "mood" or arom, a pent-up emotional state in need of release. The commercialisation of sex is also more prominent and more accepted, implicitly if not explicitly, in Thailand than in the West. While traditionally this commercial pragmatism in sex has been limited to the marketing of women for male consumption, in recent years both heterosexual gigolos and, to a larger extent, male homosexual prostitutes have also become common.

Sex may be discussed explicitly among same-sex peers, but almost never in mixed groups of men and women. Allyn (1991a:150) comments:

. . . sexual matters are not typically discussed by the Thai among themselves. Most parents do not give the facts of life to their offspring and there is little sex education conducted in school. These matters are seen as private and embarrassing. However, while sex is not directly discussed . . . sexual matters are alluded to in a positive light, . . . it is common to tease and joke with others [about sexual matters], particularly the newly married. What is significant here is that bawdy banter is done in front of children. The banter is usually positive: "Did you have fun last night?" "Was last night happy?" "How many times?"

In further discussing Thai attitudes to sex, Allyn (ibid.:153) observes:
Most social discussion about sexuality is about heterosexual behaviour. . . . Decent girls don't flirt and don't encourage boys to flirt back, so gaining the attention of a boy is done circumspectly, often through a third party. Good boys want decent girls, and playing around with decent girls is [considered] bad. Prostitutes are not decent . . . but it is better to go to her when the mood needs satisfaction rather than defile a decent girl.

Attitudes to sex in Thailand vary between classes, and opportunities for sexual experiences also differ markedly for Thai men and women. The upper class, sections of the Western-educated middle class, and Thais from a Chinese cultural background often express prudish attitudes towards sex. In part this prudishness appears to have been influenced by nineteenth and early twentieth century Western attitudes to sex, in the case of the Thai upper classes, and by Chinese culture's more conservative attitudes towards sex, in the case of the Sino-Thais.

Rural and urban working-class Thais, who make up the overwhelming majority of the population, generally have much more liberal attitudes towards sex, explicitly valuing the pleasure of sexual activity. Among most ethnic Thais sexual desire is commonly regarded as a "mood" (arom) in need of release (rabai), and when a Thai man has a sexual mood, it is expected that he will act upon it to obtain sexual release. The idea of suppressing sexual desires, except for Buddhist monks who have renounced all worldly involvement, is not a part of traditional male sexual culture.

Food metaphors and the idea of "flavour" (rot-chat) are commonly applied to sexual enjoyment. Just as Thais enjoy variety in their foodтАФeating the same type of food every day is regarded as boring (na-beua) and flat (jeut)тАФso, too, the quest for variety and novelty in sexual experience is valued positively. The cultural valuing of variety in food, sex and other sensory experiences can itself be used to justify experimenting with homosexuality. It is not uncommon for Thai men to justify their interest in homosexual sex in terms of seeking out a "new flavour" (rot-chat mai) of sexual pleasure or a desire for a "change of flavour" (plian rot-chat). "I'd like to give it a try" (yak lorng du) is also a common justification for having sex with another man, just as "Do you want to give it a try?" (yak lorng du mai) can be used as a non-threatening sexual request between masculine-identified males who do not consider themselves to be predominantly homosexual.

Regarding the positive valuation of sex and sexual desire in Thailand, Allyn (1991a:162) comments:

Feeling ngian (a vulgar term that is equivalent to "horny") is accepted, and even Thai women are supposed to enjoy their sexual experiences, albeit not as freely as Thai men. . . . Thai heterosexual pornographic videos often feature prolonged scenes of stimulation of the female, in contrast to Chinese hard-core material where intercourse is engaged in comparatively fast.

Concern among heterosexual men to provide sexual pleasure to female partners is shown by some working-class Thai men's preparedness to scarify their penis in order to increase women's sexual satisfaction. While this scarification has a strong element of masculine sexual braggadocioтАФthe incision is typically performed in the presence or with the help of male peersтАФit is justified in terms of supposedly increasing a woman's sexual enjoyment. The most common form of penile scarification is fang muk ("inserting pearls"), where small glass or plastic beads are inserted under the skin of the penis. A less common form of scarification is called ben (from "Mercedes Benz"), where a triangular shape similar to the Mercedes Benz marque is cut onto the top of the penis, below the glans. This scarification is believed to increase friction against the clitoris during sex and to increase a woman's pleasure.

While Thai male sexual culture is elaborate and positively sanctioned by prevailing attitudes, Thai women benefit far less from the pragmatic and generally liberal view of sex, and there are great differences in sexual expectations between the sexes. In socio-economic and cultural terms, the status of women has traditionally been higher in Thailand than in most other Southeast Asian countries. Women have historically controlled household finances, and in villages and small towns they have dominated local level small scale economic activities such as the marketing of produce and cottage industry products. Thai women continue to play an important economic role as middle-level shopkeepers and entrepreneurs. Despite this, Thailand remains a male-dominated society and women's opportunities for sexual expression are restricted compared to men, who have few limits placed on their sexual conduct. As Keyes (1975:290) notes of the situation in villages, "If one is to play an active role in village affairs one should be male, own some paddy fields, and head an independent domestic group."

However, rapid urbanisation, socio-economic transformation, the impact of Western ideas via print and electronic media, the opening of discussion of sexuality in light of HIV/AIDS, mass tourism and increasing numbers of Thai men and women travelling and studying overseas, are together leading to major changes in Thai sexual attitudes. These changes are apparent in increasing freedom in partner selection, lessened importance of woman's virginity at the time of marriage, a decrease in the age of first sexual intercourse for both men and women, and more open discussion of sexual matters, especially among the young, educated and urban sections of the population.

Source:An Abridged Excerpt from Chapter One of DEAR UNCLE GO: Male Homosexuality in Thailand Dr. Peter A. Jackson. While I edited out much of the purely homosexual material the article contained a great deal of interesting information on Thai culture that applies to all sexual orientations. The full article is at: http://www.floatinglotus.com/dugexc.html

This excerpt, with full credit, is being shared under the Fair Use provision of the U.S. Copyright laws and International treaties for educational purposes and for no financial gain.

[TotalTop]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the posts. Very, very interesting for a newcomer. Especially the part about sexuality.

I thinkt the most amazing thing about the young thai guys' attitude to gay sex is that they seem to be very open to it (the act), even if they don't really see themselves as openly gay. I have very limited sex experiences with thai guys (hope to gain more experience very soon :-)) but so far my impression is that the distinction between gay, bisexual and bi-curious is not really part of the thai culture, at least not in BKK where I have been.

This is also the feedback I got in my other threat ("A beginner's guide to...")

[pong]

was a bit surprised as I recognised the text so much. Our dear Chris made it clear: that mr. Allyn in the quote is Eric Alllyn-the writer of the TMOT series of guidebooks to gay Thailand I also mentioned in the other response. (I even had a letter answered from him once-days when there was no @mails).
But the face is so sociological scientific. It is said all over Asia-but IMHO the Koreans are by far the worst in it-and have the longest toes to step on. After many, many years in TH-and also in other ASEAN countries, I tend to be more cynic-in TH-when the face=thing hurts, its nearly always also about money. Esp. the view from bisnispeople that money might be lost -like by informing a customer that there are plenty of other cheaper alternatives- seems to be a major thing. Which is quite different from the sometimes elaborate and incomprehensible things that may develop in Indonesia/java.
And to above-TTop: yes, you do not talk about s.x. You just do it. Does for most not really matter with whom. But how is yet another matter-owee if the idea of being a real man might appear to be hurt. ''Gay'' for most has another meaning as homo: it simply means being queen/bottom or whatever you name it. A thing to avoid-or at least being openly known-for all those real men that look and act like real sissies.

oh dear pong .. you seem to have regressed to making no sense at all again .. can i book you another course with rosetta stone ???

[Hmmm]

In everyday life, Thais rarely judge their actions by any abstract criterion of right or wrong, sin, or virtue. Instead, within the culture of maintaining positive images, they are much more concerned with how they appear to others and how they measure up to others' expectations. Thus, "rightness" and "wrongness" tend to be socially specific rather than morally abstract notions within Thai culture, being more closely aligned with notions of propriety than of sin.

So it's basically arguing that Thais have no moral sense of right and wrong, or at least that they don't care about right and wrong. That would explain a lot about Thai society.

[Liamog]

Source:An Abridged Excerpt from Chapter One of DEAR UNCLE GO: Male Homosexuality in Thailand Dr. Peter A. Jackson. While I edited out much of the purely homosexual material the article contained a great deal of interesting information on Thai culture that applies to all sexual orientations. The full article is at: http://www.floatinglotus.com/dugexc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


This link doesn't work, anyone know the correct link? I'd be interested to read 'Dear Uncle Go: Male Homosexuality in Thailand' - is it available in bookshops? Interesting article.

[Dodger]

Liamog...

Peter Jacksons..."Uncle Go" is available on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Dear-Uncle-Go-Hom ... 0942777115 (http://www.amazon.com/Dear-Uncle-Go-Homosexuality-Thailand/dp/0942777115)

[Dodger]

Peter Jackson Quote:


It is not uncommon for Thai men to justify their interest in homosexual sex in terms of seeking out a "new flavour" (rot-chat mai) of sexual pleasure or a desire for a "change of flavour" (plian rot-chat).

This would certainly explain the reason why predominently str8 Thai males on the working scene can have sex with other males (punters) with no obvious reservations.

I think the fact that Thais don't have any major stigma's regarding their sexual identities, or appetites for varieities of sex, is why we witness this phenomenom in Thai culture. If only we could practice this in the West.

If the Thais value "face" as they do, and focus so much energy on having their" self "and "public images" perceived as being acceptable within their level(s) of society - then it would only make sense that society itself fully accepts an individuals expression of sexual freedom as Peter Jackson has eluded to.

At my wedding ceremony several years back I remember sitting on the tailgate of Thep's fathers pickup truck just absorbing the scene in front of me. There stood Thep (a ladyboy) dressed in his wedding gown looking like the Queen of the Nile who was standing arm-and-arm with his smiling parents while his younger sister Phot who is a lesbian snapped the photos. Thep, as always, was wearing two pairs of tight undies to conceal his male genitals - and Phot, as always, was wearing a tight elastic band to conceal her breasts. Neither one was the least bit concerned about the way they were being perceived by the entire village that day - for the mere fact that the village (their society) fully accepted their expressions of "self" as they do their own. If I was still following my fathers religion (Catholic) we would have been branded as sinners and burned at the stake.