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lonelywombat
January 14th, 2012, 10:43
posted Bangkok Post 14 jan

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/2 ... f-buddhism (http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/275069/does-a-coyote-dancing-gay-monk-spell-end-of-buddhism)" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The ear-slapping customs official abusing his power at Suvarnabhumi Airport was not the only act of inappropriate behaviour caught on camera this week. Video footage of a man dancing like a Soi Cowboy coyote dancer has also been circulated through social networking sites and the Thai media.

Those contemplating joining the monkhood should first try and walk a mile barefoot.

Many might argue that men in Thailand dancing like coyotes is a pretty regular occurrence, so what made this time different? The fact that the booty-shaking man in question was a fully ordained monk!

I am sad to say, but my previous statement is probably not entirely true. This dancing monk is only the latest example of what has become a pretty regular thing among monks as well. So, nothing out of the ordinary here.

Images of novices and monks partaking in homosexual activities can easily be found all over the net. Not that I've ever looked, my mate told me about them.

Now Thai people tend to forget things pretty quickly, so the last incident to hit the headlines back on Dec 18, when four male prostitutes alleged that monks had been paying for their services, is but a distant memory.

For now, however, the image of an 80kg man in saffron robes shaking his backside seems to have stuck in people's minds. Religious, Dhamma web boards are now full of concerned Buddhists debating whether homosexuals should be allowed into the monkhood.

There also seems to be a lot of argument over what constitutes as homosexual with regard to Buddhism and who is allowed to ordain. So before we can decide if gays can be monks we should, of course, define what "gay" is.

The original term used in the Tripitaka to describe someone excluded from ordaining was a "pandakas" or "ubhatobyanjanaka". There is much argument over the meaning of these words with regard to modern definitions.

Peter A Jackson, a professor of Thai cultural studies at the College of Asia and the Pacific, the Australian National University, argues that the words traditionally refer to hermaphrodites.

It is only because they have been translated and interpreted by more modern languages that they have come to mean homosexual. For example, the Thai Sangha has the term written as kathoey rather than khon song phes.

Once we get through the discussion on who exactly the Tripitaka is against becoming a monk, the real fun begins. Let's assume for a moment that, yes, the Lord Buddha did indeed want a "don't ask, don't tell" operation. How exactly then do you define who is a homosexual?

Well, the Tripitaka has an answer to that, too.

The problem is, the definition of who is homosexual according to the Tripitaka, sounds like it was written by the Brothers Grimm.

There are at least five types of homosexuals according to the list (I swear I'm not making this up):

1. Men who enjoy performing oral sex on other men and ingesting semen.

2. Men who enjoy watching other men perform sexual intercourse.

3. Men who become attracted to men during a full moon.

4. Hermaphrodites.

5. Eunuchs.

While eunuchs somehow made the list, I was surprised to see that "men who enjoy a loving relationship with a male life-partner" was omitted.

No matter. A wiser man than me wrote this list, so I will not argue. Now, according to the Tripitaka, the first two types of homosexuals listed are still permitted to be ordained as monks. The final three are not allowed, which is strange as they seem the least gay to me.

While traditionalists, liberals and purveyors of human rights argue over whether homosexuals should have the right to following the teachings of Buddha in whichever manner they see fit, I can't help but wonder if this is all a non-issue?

The basic ideals of Buddhism are supposedly to achieve a life free from struggle, and thus attain Nirvana, through the elimination of desire and want. Anyone, gay or straight, seriously considering becoming a monk should be prepared to rid themselves of sexual desire, no matter who they lust after.

Essentially, once you put on the robes you should be prepared to consider yourself as asexual as Cliff Richard.

If this is true, which I absolutely believe it is, then the Sangha, at least if they believe in the ability of their institution, have nothing to fear.

Perhaps instead of fighting to prohibit an entire social group from partaking in our country's national religion, the Sangha should be looking to their own house? Why is it that so many people who have clearly forgotten or ignore the tenets of Buddhism are able to enter monkhood and disrespect the religion so blatantly?

It is not homosexuals that are ruining the monkhood, it is poor teaching and a society that uses the act of ordaining to their own personal benefit. Becoming a monk to make parents happy, to get rid of unwanted children, to avoid dealing with the pressures of modern society are not good reasons to ordain.

You should only become a monk if you are willing to leave your past life behind and embrace the rules set by Buddha. If you're not, then you are doing nothing but disrespecting everything the religion stands for, whether you're gay or straight.

Arglit Boonyai is Multimedia Editor, Bangkok Post.

Brisboy82
January 14th, 2012, 10:53
I believe monks are supposed to give up all frivolous activities regardless of their sexuality etc. I remember one time in Laos my Lao friend was a little upset because some novice monks (they were about 12 years old) were playing soccer. He considered that very offensive and against the concept of what the monkhood stands for. Supposed to give up all of life's frivolous pleasures and entertainment in order to simplify. Whether gay or straight wouldn't matter as sexuality becomes irrelevant during that time.

martin911
January 14th, 2012, 11:45
I believe monks are supposed to give up all frivolous activities regardless of their sexuality etc. I remember one time in Laos my Lao friend was a little upset because some novice monks (they were about 12 years old) were playing soccer. He considered that very offensive and against the concept of what the monkhood stands for. Supposed to give up all of life's frivolous pleasures and entertainment in order to simplify. Whether gay or straight wouldn't matter as sexuality becomes irrelevant during that time.


This is what is supposed to happen -- no sex etc
Not als the case LOL --i have one friend who lives in Bkk and went to be a monk (for 3 months ) last year --to calm down a little for a while !!

Within a week he had called another farang friend a of mine -- he wanted 10 odd sachets of the viagra gel sent to the monastery where he was at
--not for himself ,at 24 yo he has NO prob getting hard --he wanted it because there was another monk he liked where he was --and he wanted to put some of the gel into the guys food/drink etc --in the hope it would make the guy horny and possibily lead to something happening between them !!!!!

DamienZ
January 14th, 2012, 15:51
Hi,
I really want to respond to this but I'm not quite sure which end to get at from. I think it actually is a multi-sided argument-in theory. In reality, I agree, when someone takes the robes, there "should" be a responsibility associated with the mantle. It would be reasonable as well to keep apples and oranges (mangoes), seperate. Unless of course you are funneling just to Thai-bash (which could be possible as well). I would like to suggest the stories of the gay samurai and monks by Ihara Sikaku, who wrote in the late Tokugawa Period of Japan-it's not new.

DamienZ
January 15th, 2012, 06:35
OK, after further thought and in the spirit of healthy discourse...
here are a few reasons why this post irked me so. Aside from the quoting and manipulations of the Pali Canon to your own ideological standards and morals (My opinion: I think we we Westerners should stick to Christianity-don't you?). There are several fallacies of reason which you are putting forth in your post. The very premise of the post is based on a fallacy of reason. Fallacies of Reason are dangerous (in my opinion), and should be scrutinized at every opportunity. History will clearly point this argument out. I pegged this one out of the list in wikipedia.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc Latin for "after this, therefore because of this," is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation, or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.

Thanks

For your review:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

DZ
:glasses7:

Dodger
January 15th, 2012, 16:14
There is no identification, categorization or discrimination of gays within the Buddhist monkhood.

There are many gays within the ranks of the novice monk ranks - mostly young guys aged 12 to 21 - who do not intent on becoming fully ordained monks and go through the novice process simply as a means of gaining merit with their families with no intentions whatsoever of living a life without sex. Some novice monks refrain from having sex while going through this short process (typically 3-12 weeks) - and some do not. I know this as fact.

I have had sex with a novice monk - and you probably have as well and just don't know it.

My guess is if a fully ordained monk was doing a coyote dance in public he was probably snacking on the wrong kind of mushrooms whilst doing his gardening chores.

Brisboy82
January 16th, 2012, 04:06
There is no identification, categorization or discrimination of gays within the Buddhist monkhood.

There are many gays within the ranks of the novice monk ranks - mostly young guys aged 12 to 21 - who do not intent on becoming fully ordained monks and go through the novice process simply as a means of gaining merit with their families with no intentions whatsoever of living a life without sex. Some novice monks refrain from having sex while going through this short process (typically 3-12 weeks) - and some do not. I know this as fact.

I have had sex with a novice monk - and you probably have as well and just don't know it.

My guess is if a fully ordained monk was doing a coyote dance in public he was probably snacking on the wrong kind of mushrooms whilst doing his gardening chores.

Of course a novice monk has no intention of giving those things up permanently. However during the period of a few weeks while he is a novice he is supposed to stick strictly to those rules otherwise the merit gained is false. The whole point is they gain merit by making a sacrifice so if they are sexually active while being a novice monk then they don't really deserve the merit that comes with being a novice.

Dodger
January 16th, 2012, 06:00
Brisboy82 Wrote:


The whole point is they gain merit by making a sacrifice so if they are sexually active while being a novice monk then they don't really deserve the merit that comes with being a novice.

I couldn't agree more, although boys will be boys, and I know 2 boys who completed the novice process, although would fall short in the eyes of many of deserving the merit they received.

A friend of mine (Thai) completed a 3 month novice monk process several years ago and went on the describe how his friend, who was also a fem boy from the same home village, had sex every day during the process with a much younger str8 boy who apparently was hung like a racehorse. Good karma - bad karma, hell I don't know, but I rather doubt that either of these two boys ever went on to becoming fully ordained.