Gay Pride Pattaya?

On GB's board someone started a thread suggesting a gay pride parade. As I wrote my response I kept thinking about ides and think I have come up with a great one if anyone/group of people want to consider it and set up a committee and take off with it. A good suggestion by me if I must say so!
:party

Re: Gay Pride
by justme ┬╗ Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:05 pm

It would have to be organized and run by Thais and maybe have some input by farang. What would be most important would have to be that the businesses don't sit on any board or have any influence in the parade as I am sure that would really screw things up and cause nothing but animosity.
You know how it would go, a few of the larger gay businesses would make sure that they were always the ones that were predominantly in the best psoitions and places etc. I can hear it now! and so the TV cameras play up on all the Madames and outrageous people rather than the majority.

How about avoiding all the problems and considering a Gay Pride Day, and circulating it to all the businesses to have parties at their bars, restaurants, beach places etc. Then you don't need permission from the city as there is no parade. Places that want to have parties will do it themselves in their own places.
No one fighting over who is first, second and third in the parade or who is the MC or MCstriss (hmmm). Maybe we could have a gay Pride WEEK so that people have a chance to patronize and party at more places. If many places get all partied up, it will be very difficult for many people to visit more than a few during the day or evening. YES!, a Gay Pride Week. And if you are going to do it like the big boys, you would have it nearly June 28th.

As far as a committee, there would not be any undue influences because the venues themselves would be putting on thier individual parties and there would not need to be major decisions other than who makes up the posters/fliers and at what expense and who distributes them.

My thought for the year!
justme

why bother .. just make your bar worth visiting all the time .. and if you was gonna do it then surely it would be better in high season rather than low ?

Bri, I am not talking about how to make your bar or business good or great or how to attract customers. I am talking about a serious week long celebration of parties, events, bar b qs, buufets and just all out having a great time. You say why as it takes place in low season? Because it is noted for being Gay Pride month and what better way to maybe want tourists to want to come to Pattaya when everyone is doing specials and shows and everything? Do you think Mardis Gras started off with one bar or place doing something? NO! It was everyone united or even seperately doing something all together during a week long festival. Oh my, you really sound like a party pooper.
:crybaby:

no i dont mind a party .. but im not a gay gay person i guess ... dont see the need to do a gay pride thing .. why not just do another thingy like they did in sunee before .. i think it was called white night .. or something simular ..
i think youd get more custom that way too

Actually it really doesnt matter what the reason or when it is celebrated. The Gay Pride thing was brought up on GB forum and all I am suggesting is a big party during the off season months (to draw customers at a non peak time) and have it so that people would want to plan for that specific time to come to Pattaya. Something like Mardi Gras draws people to Brazil and New Orleans and places at mardis Gras time. certainly I am not suggesting that it could be anywhere as big but its a start. A 3 day party if not a week long.
An idea to boost tourism is a boost to the gay businesses of Pattaya which in turn help support charities and other causes here.

Looks like you (Justme) have a germ of an idea which could amount to something.

You are absolutely right with regard to the organisation - the LAST thing we want is the usual suspects hijacking the whole thing to make themselves look good (metaphorically speaking of course - there is nothing on Earth that could make them look good literally)

I feel you are also correct about the timing - have it in "low season" - and the reason for that Brithai, is that when it's "high" season you don't have to stimulate business to the same extent as during your quieter months.

I do like the idea of it being a 3 day "festival" (maybe Fri/Sat/Sun) rather than a one-day parade - could this tie in perhaps with the main "gay" areas of BT/Sunee/Jomtien - with each area hosting some sort of outdoor event on a different day?

:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:

Well as I said before, I want no part of putting anything together and planning it out and I dont think that any business or charity should. What I am trying to do is to put the idea in someones head who will take off with the concept. And by doing it this way, yes, you would not have someone trying to take the glory.

You are exactly on course with everything that you said SG. It would be an event in all the places in Pattaya. Yes, this would mean Sunee, BT, and JC.
Each venue would be responsible if they wish to doll up thier establishment for thier party or sit out which I think would be foolish.
It would just be a 3 day weekend party extravaganza in ALL the areas and certainly if some of the bars want to get together and do something as a unified community/area so much the better.

cheers scotty.. i can see the reasons for doing such a thing in low season but i dont think it would work so well ...
i dont think people would go to pattaya at that time of year just for a 3 day party .. much better in my opion to do it when there are lots of people there anyway .. and dont forget just because it would be a *gay march* kind of thing there would be as many if not more straighties there to watch and stop for a drink etc etc than gays ..
it would be pretty dissapointing to arrange something like that then have few people turn up..

Well its up to all those on a committee when they would think best but the other point I was trying to factor in was the fact that City Hall was not too enthused, or so I am told by many, of having a parade or march. This permits would have to be issued and possible problems with city hall.
A huge party would need NO permits as there is nothing city hall would be involved with. Just a unified party.

cheers scotty.. i can see the reasons for doing such a thing in low season but i dont think it would work so well ...
i dont think people would go to pattaya at that time of year just for a 3 day party .. much better in my opion to do it when there are lots of people there anyway .. and dont forget just because it would be a *gay march* kind of thing there would be as many if not more straighties there to watch and stop for a drink etc etc than gays ..
it would be pretty dissapointing to arrange something like that then have few people turn up..

Well I think, as Justme, said, a big march is the last thing that's needed.

There are very few "gay pride" events in the world which actually attract tourists - and those "biggies" which do, mostly started off local.

What the vast majority of small Gay Pride events do is to encourage the people who are resident in or visiting the area to turn out and have a good time.

In my view it could be a very welcome shot in the arm for businesses during the "low season".
I do take your point that there are more tourists around in High Season - but I do not see it as a tourist event - in the short term at least.

:tif:

[Beachlover]

Firstly, the Pattaya Pride thing isn't anything to do with "gay pride". It's a bunch of prostitution-related businesses getting together to promote themselves and raise funds for charities, which were started due to social healthcare issues arising from the commercial sex trade anyway... yes, that sounds harsh but it's true.


It would have to be organized and run by Thais...
Secondly, I agree with this and most of what Justme says but will go a bit further.

To be a genuine gay pride event, it would need to be organised by Thais right?

For a "gay pride" event to be organised by Thais, there must be an underlying need or desire to be fulfilled right?

From what I've seen, most successful gay pride events are initiated and sustained because gay people in that area wish to become more visible and celebrate who they are. They might have felt oppressed and want to fight this. Or they might feel that society has become more accepting of them and wish to embrace and take advantage of this.

The question to answer is, are any of these factors present amongst gay Thais who reside in Pattaya?

So where does that leave you?

Firstly, the Pattaya Pride thing isn't anything to do with "gay pride". It's a bunch of prostitution-related businesses getting together to promote themselves and raise funds for charities, which were started due to social healthcare issues arising from the commercial sex trade anyway... yes, that sounds harsh but it's true....

I accept the first part (except of course, as the Police have confirmed in writing, there is no sign of any prostitution or facilitation of prostitution in the biggest whorehouse of the lot :evil4: )

However I don't accept the second part of your comment as it stands.
I'm not convinced that the commercial sex trade is solely responsible for all the social healthcare issues which are prevalent in Pattaya - poverty, poor education and social injustice all play a major part
Every country and city in the world has its social healthcare issues and they arise because of a multiplicity of factors, not a single factor as you suggest.
Look at the HIV rates in many African countries where, as far as I am aware, there is generally not a great many commercial-sex related businesses.

:occasion9:

scotty i would have thought most locals go out often enough without needing a reason !!
one of the joys of being gay is the fact that ones money is ones own and not wasted on kids etc .. tho im sure thats how some like to spend it anyhow... but i mean most gays dont have kids...
as for pride marches i didnt realise all of it was done for charity ... tho if it is im sure some money would go to the pattaya kids home .. i dont think you can blame the prossy bars for the fact there are homeless children in pattaya ??

[netrix]

none of the 3 pride-related events in thailand (pattaya, bangkok, phuket)
are part of Interpride (http://www.interpride.org), the International Association of Pride Organizers.
someone ambitious could work with existing organizers to actually
create some events similar to those around the world that attract
visitors globally. why not?

BUT...

this forum is not the best place to either brainstorm ideas for, or
promote such events. most of the regulars on this forum have
never been to a pride event so wouldn't understand the reasons
for putting something together. people who think the music in
gogo bars is too loud have no business planning parties of any kind.

i say if you want to create a multi-day festival, then do it right...
yes have a parade, and a festival, and parties, and live celebrity
entertainment. we're talking permits, international promotion,
publicity locally and online, etc.

if you just wanna have a party then don't call it pride.

scotty ..... i dont think you can blame the prossy bars for the fact there are homeless children in pattaya ??


Could you kindly stop contradicting me on things I didn't say in the first place :rolling:

I said the exact opposite of that - it was Beachlover who pinned all the social ills of Pattaya on the commercial sex scene - direct your opinion to her (and expect a voluminous reply) :rolling:


:occasion9:

[Smiles]

" ... (and expect a voluminous reply) ... "
. . . of the usual froth.

And I would add (if I were you): " ... and stop calling me Scotty ... " (as if you were my bum buddy).

[Marsilius]

The point of Gay Pride festivities is surely to demonstrate to straight people that we reject the old idea that we ought to stay hidden away in the closet and be ashamed of who we are. Instead we celebrate our existence and our distinct identity in the most open and public fashion - notably by visible and attention-attracting colourful parades that will be witnessed by as many straight people as possible.

Celebrations held within bars where only we gay people congregate will have no impact on the straight general public whatsoever. They will no doubt be great fun for the participants - and probably much more lucrative for Pattaya's gay entrepreneurs than "ordinary" Low Season nights - but to attempt to link them to Gay Pride's quite specific consciousness-raising objectives seems utterly inappropriate.

I'm from Toronto Canada and after over 25 years of Pride style events I can happily say that we have the biggest pride celebration in North America. Every year over 1 million people come on the last weekend in June from all over Canada and America and even overseas. Of course Pattaya can begin on a much smaller scale, but if developed properly, with the co-operation of local government, and donations from corporate sponsors, it can become an international destination for gay pride (Sydney Australia ranked #1 for international exposure). I'd happily volunteer my time if such a committee was created.

Marsillus - your first paragraph is informative, but whilst I have been on Gay Pride marches in the past in no longer feel I have to "demonstrate" anything about my sexuality (in a general sense) to the str8 community. I feel that the society I live in has moved on from that.

The only "gay" parades or demonstrations which I would be inclined to go on these days would be on a specific issue - such as same-sex marriage for example. I do not feel the need to put on a frock and a pink wig and mince up and down the street just to demonstrate that "I'm Gay, get over it!"

I realise that I am fortunate in living in a civilised country but I'm not sure how appropriate any "We're Here, We're Queer" "demonstration" of our sexuality, would be in Pattaya - where I have never encountered any anti-gay sentiment(apart from obnoxious tourists).

Of course Beachy will tell me that I don't associate with "normal" Thais, only pimps. prostitutes and whoremongers - and he may have a point :rolling: - but I also walk the streets and interact with people I meet and I don't feel forced into any closet at all nowadays.

The idea that has been mooted (by others) - a 3 day "festival" in the 3 main "gay areas" will probably not even come to fruition, but I would far rather have that than a full blown parade and all the associated crap that goes with that. What I had understood was being suggested was not a "within the bars" event but something that spread out from the bars but within the confines of the gay areas - ie BT, Sunee, and Jomtien.

If your objection is to the connotations of the words "Gay Pride" then your objection is easily met by simply not using those words.

:occasion9:

[Marsilius]

I guess that my objection is, as you suggest Scottish-guy, to the linking of the Gay Pride concept with the simple jollifications that have been suggested here.

The name Gay Pride embodies a very important concept. And while you may not feel the need to assert the validity if your identity as a gay person in your own place of residence, the struggle for the recognition of gay rights and equality is far from won in many other parts of the world. The concept and implementation of Gay Pride parades, marches and other activities has proved to be one of the most effective ways of demonstrating to previously ignorant straight people just how many of us there are and how determined we are to achieve equal status.

To link that concept with the inward-looking shenanigans being proposed for Pattaya is to denigrate the courage of those attempting to hold Gay Pride events in the face of officially sanctioned opposition and even violence in places like, to choose one of many possible examples, Moscow.

By all means hold your celebrations and have fun - I'd love to join you! - but please call it something else, like the organisers of the White Nights shindig in Sunnee Plaza did, rather than confuse the issue by highjacking the term Gay Pride.

scotty ..... i dont think you can blame the prossy bars for the fact there are homeless children in pattaya ??


Could you kindly stop contradicting me on things I didn't say in the first place :rolling:

I said the exact opposite of that - it was Beachlover who pinned all the social ills of Pattaya on the commercial sex scene - direct your opinion to her (and expect a voluminous reply) :rolling:


:occasion9:
indeed but i wasnt refering to you with that .. ive just got no idea how to do more than one quote for each answer .. i know it was her who said that ... and i also dont want to be reading a 3 page answer from her .. sorry for confusing you :occasion9:

one thing i dont get about this sort of thing is what is there to be proud about ?
im not proud of being gay i just am.. so i feel theres no need to go off marching about it .. im english i also am not proud of that .. it just happend to be where im from ..
you are who you are.... live with it ..
i know some places in the world hate gays .. but are you so proud you'd go to those places and mince around just to prove it ??

[Marsilius]

In an ideal world where no-one was prejudiced against us because of our sexuality and it was not an issue, I would agree that one's sexual orientation would be something to be neither ashamed nor proud of - but just something to accept of oneself and others.

But we live in reality in a world where the practice of homosexuality - or even its mere unpracticed existence - is still reviled by very many people (Roman Catholics, fundamentalist Christians, Moslems, bigots, self-hating closeted gays, etc.)

When those people declare that we ought to be ashamed of our "sin" or "addiction", it is not enough to respond with a low key "I just am like that" that can sound, to the attacker, defensive at best and apologetic at worse. The assertion of pride in one's homosexuality is simply a necessary rhetorical gambit to impress upon the ignorant that we will not be denigrated or browbeaten any longer.

..The assertion of pride in one's homosexuality is simply a necessary rhetorical gambit to impress upon the ignorant that we will not be denigrated or browbeaten any longer.

I think Brithai's (entirely valid) contention is that he does not feel it necessary to dress up in drag and parade down the street once a year to make that point.

[kittyboy]

..The assertion of pride in one's homosexuality is simply a necessary rhetorical gambit to impress upon the ignorant that we will not be denigrated or browbeaten any longer.

I think Brithai's (entirely valid) contention is that he does not feel it necessary to dress up in drag and parade down the street once a year to make that point.

If Brithai does not want to mince about then he is free not to mince about at a gay pride event.
Marsillius make a good point.

IMHO - Gay pride events have been very important in helping gays and lesbians (a marginalized group of people) gain mainstream acceptance. I am sure someone will now tell me that they do not feel the need to be mainstream and why do gays and lesbians feel the need to be accepted....I am a human being and being gay is not that important. Yea..well that may be true for some individuals but many people around the world face severe discrimination and gay pride event IMHO have helped overcome discrimination.

kitty do you really belive that ??
i would much prefer to belive that straight people watch these parades as they pass by and more often than not laugh at the people on the floats .. imho (i hate that) i think pride marches are a total waste of time and effort .. and now you mock me and say hell no !!! we have changed peoples minds in loads of countries around the world .. i mean im sure you've had loads of offers from people in african countries wanting you to be their boyfriends .. but come on get real marches do nothing other than give some screaming queens the chance to dress up once a year and act like a twat ...
how many of these people dress like that in real life .. other than a few on this board !! probably not many ..
being gay isnt a thing to be proud of as is being straight anything to be proud of ... but at least straight people have the chance to reproduce unlike us .. and isnt that the so called reason to be ??
just accept the fact you are gay it really is no big deal ..
its like the im gay your gay so why cant we both get on argument .. im sure there are more gay people i have nothing in commen with than straight people .. so why should i like them just because they are gay ...
it wont be much longer before we have *im a banker* marches .. the new underworld

[kittyboy]

kitty do you really belive that ??
i would much prefer to belive that straight people watch these parades as they pass by and more often than not laugh at the people on the floats .. imho (i hate that) i think pride marches are a total waste of time and effort .. and now you mock me and say hell no !!! we have changed peoples minds in loads of countries around the world .. i mean im sure you've had loads of offers from people in african countries wanting you to be their boyfriends .. but come on get real marches do nothing other than give some screaming queens the chance to dress up once a year and act like a twat ...
how many of these people dress like that in real life .. other than a few on this board !! probably not many ..
being gay isnt a thing to be proud of as is being straight anything to be proud of ... but at least straight people have the chance to reproduce unlike us .. and isnt that the so called reason to be ??
just accept the fact you are gay it really is no big deal ..
its like the im gay your gay so why cant we both get on argument .. im sure there are more gay people i have nothing in commen with than straight people .. so why should i like them just because they are gay ...
it wont be much longer before we have *im a banker* marches ..

I absolutely believe what I wrote and I disagree with you. You may not see the need or the utility of gay pride events but I see great benefit. I was in chicago a few years ago.a friend was marching in the parade as a show of support because his son is gay. The republican candidate for governor was in the parade as was the mayor. That is powerful validation for a group of people who have traditionally been marginalized. If some people in the parade want to dress up and act however they want to act...why do you feel the need to judge them? IMHO gay youth and people around the world in other cultures that are hostile to gays and lesbians see gay pride events with literally hundreds of thousands of people and they realize that they are not alone...That is a very important function.

If bankers want to have a march then why complain? I also have more in common with many of my hetero friends...So what? IMHO - Gays and lesbians need to band together for political and social recognition. If you disagree fine...but why complain when others try to accomplish that goal.

As an aside though I do remember attending some gay pride events in the early 1980s when the christian fundementalists would show up and protest...god that was fun.

The republican candidate for governor was in the parade as was the mayor
i think that is what is know as fishing for votes ...

[kittyboy]

The republican candidate for governor was in the parade as was the mayor
i think that is what is know as fishing for votes ...

Yes...that was my point. Gay pride events have helped turned gays and lesbians into a political force.
So what is wrong with that?

The republican candidate for governor was in the parade as was the mayor
i think that is what is know as fishing for votes ...

Yes...that was my point. Gay pride events have helped turned gays and lesbians into a political force.
So what is wrong with that?
well if you are happy for politicians to use you then go for it .. as for me i despise them
lying bunch of wanksters i would do nothing to help .. but if you are belive they are there to look after you once they have your vote then put on ur sunday best and get aboard a float enjoy ... :party

[kittyboy]

The republican candidate for governor was in the parade as was the mayor
i think that is what is know as fishing for votes ...

Yes...that was my point. Gay pride events have helped turned gays and lesbians into a political force.
So what is wrong with that?
well if you are happy for politicians to use you then go for it .. as for me i despise them
lying bunch of wanksters i would do nothing to help .. but if you are belive they are there to look after you once they have your vote then put on ur sunday best and get aboard a float enjoy ... :party

I am much less cynical than you appear to be.
I am from the US and in the US at least 20 states now ban discrimination based on sexual orientation. If politicians are such lying wankers why were these laws passed? OK it is a rhetorical question the laws were passed because gays, lesbians, and their friends have become a political force and politicians have responded with laws addressing their concerns.

In 2010 Portugal legalized gay marriage. Gay marriage was part of the political platform of the socialist party. Why did the lying wankers legalize gay marriage? I do not know bithai...why don't you tell the gays lesbians in Portugal what lying wankers they had for elected officials.

IMHO gay and lesbian pride parades are an important method of demonstrating potential political power which translates into laws and social legitimacy.

It is easy to be cynical and say that all elected officials are lying wankers but IMHO gays and lesbians have been very effective at using the political process for their benefit. ..so bithai why the fucking complaining?

im not complaining mearly stating my point of view .. which im sure you'd agree is my right :evil4:
you have also answered your own question ( are you a politician ) get the gays onside we get the pink vote
just because you have the vote doesnt mean you actually get anything!!!
david cameron our great british pm has promised us almost as much as the great tony blair the only difference between the two is that we knew cameron wouldnt deliver in far less time that it took to suss out blair..
tell me kitty did you march again the wars in the last few years ?? (something i would consider far more important than a few queen mincing down the road)
as to wether you did or didnt does not matter much . but did you notice how much your government took notice of it ..
now i guess you can call me cynical i just call it being real .

[kittyboy]

im not complaining mearly stating my point of view .. which im sure you'd agree is my right :evil4:
you have also answered your own question ( are you a politician ) get the gays onside we get the pink vote
just because you have the vote doesnt mean you actually get anything!!!
david cameron our great british pm has promised us almost as much as the great tony blair the only difference between the two is that we knew cameron wouldnt deliver in far less time that it took to suss out blair..
tell me kitty did you march again the wars in the last few years ?? (something i would consider far more important than a few queen mincing down the road)
as to wether you did or didnt does not matter much . but did you notice how much your government took notice of it ..
now i guess you can call me cynical i just call it being real .

I would not call it being real I would call it being cynical and boring.
I don't know about the difference between david cameron and tony blair but I suspect that you are one of those people who complains endlessly about politics but also never bothers to vote. I would never get married but why have countries started to pass gay marriage laws if every single person who has ever been elected to public office in the history of the world has been a fucking wanker? You still can not answer that question.

I am not a politician. I am an academic and one of my areas is studying gays and lesbians in the workplace.I have seen great changes in the attitudes toward gays and lesbians in the US during the last 35 years and I attribute much of it to the political activism of gays and lesbians.

So by all means continue to complain and be cynical but I choose to help effect change through having a political voice.

I think Pattaya having a gay pride parade would be a great idea.
And those who do not like the mincing thais then stay at home. I will fly over from china for the event.

wrong on number 1 i always vote ...
wrong on number 2 i have already answered .. i belived you called my answer cynical and boring..
as for effecting change maybe you could start by having a word with the chinese govenments to see if you can change some of their wonderful human rights laws.
i belive this has now got a bit squiffey .. so i shall leave you to stew in your self importance .. have a nice day..
oh bty what is said in one thread is left there so just because i dont agree with you on this one dont mean i wont on another .. i bet thats flumexed you :hello2:

[kittyboy]

wrong on number 1 i always vote ...
wrong on number 2 i have already answered .. i belived you called my answer cynical and boring..
as for effecting change maybe you could start by having a word with the chinese govenments to see if you can change some of their wonderful human rights laws.
i belive this has now got a bit squiffey .. so i shall leave you to stew in your self importance .. have a nice day..
oh bty what is said in one thread is left there so just because i dont agree with you on this one dont mean i wont on another .. i bet thats flumexed you :hello2:

Flumexed? Uhh..No..not really, are you flumexed? because you keep changing the subject away from a gay pride event to shit that is not relevant.

The issue is a gay pride parade. I think they are a good idea. I think lots of good things come from them.

Marsalius raised a good issue though should a Pattaya Gay pride be associated with the gay bars? I lived in San Diego, CA for many years and helped in a very very minor way organize some of the earliest gay pride events in San Diego. The earliest gay pride events in San Diego were sponsored by the bars and the post parade events were held in the parking lot of a place called the West Coast Production Company - one of the largest gay bars in San Diego at the time. The gay pride organizers needed money and the bars had money. Sometimes you do whatever you have to do to get something done and that may be the case for a Pattaya Gay Pride event.

just before i go .. other shit thats not revelvent so what you mean is thus ..
the OP things a gay pride is a good idea .. some others either dont agree or couldnt give a toss one waay of the other ..
so should we have an argument that goes like so ..
you. i want one
me . i dont want one
you . well i do
me . well i dont so ner
you well i said it first so up yours .
me . well i thought it before you said it so ner ner ner.
is that how you get things done in the land of white collar workings ?
so thats one post to many here .. and the rest say ................ :alc:

[kittyboy]

just before i go .. other shit thats not revelvent so what you mean is thus ..
the OP things a gay pride is a good idea .. some others either dont agree or couldnt give a toss one waay of the other ..
so should we have an argument that goes like so ..
you. i want one
me . i dont want one
you . well i do
me . well i dont so ner
you well i said it first so up yours .
me . well i thought it before you said it so ner ner ner.
is that how you get things done in the land of white collar workings ?
so thats one post to many here .. and the rest say ................ :alc:

OK I am not sure what that was about but you referred to the mincing queens at gay pride events. I assume you are being pejorative. There are a few of mincing queens but most of the people who attend are average folks trying to have fun.

I have been going to gay pride events for years and I am gay prided out but I recall the early years when it was a true act of bravery to walk down the street and march in a gay pride event and be part of a larger effort for gay civil rights. Mincing queens took the lead in getting gay and lesbian civil right legislation passed at least in the US.

OK you are against gay pride events. I have no problem with that but if you want to be insulting to people at least be clever or funny. I will give you an example Homitern was insulting but he was very funny.


Bring on Pattaya Gay Pride.

[Beachlover]

I guess that my objection is, as you suggest Scottish-guy, to the linking of the Gay Pride concept with the simple jollifications that have been suggested here.

The name Gay Pride embodies a very important concept. And while you may not feel the need to assert the validity if your identity as a gay person in your own place of residence, the struggle for the recognition of gay rights and equality is far from won in many other parts of the world. The concept and implementation of Gay Pride parades, marches and other activities has proved to be one of the most effective ways of demonstrating to previously ignorant straight people just how many of us there are and how determined we are to achieve equal status.

To link that concept with the inward-looking shenanigans being proposed for Pattaya is to denigrate the courage of those attempting to hold Gay Pride events in the face of officially sanctioned opposition and even violence in places like, to choose one of many possible examples, Moscow.

By all means hold your celebrations and have fun - I'd love to join you! - but please call it something else, like the organisers of the White Nights shindig in Sunnee Plaza did, rather than confuse the issue by highjacking the term Gay Pride.
I agree with this. It wouldn't be right to call it "gay pride" and as I alluded to before, there is no intrinsic need for a "gay pride" event in Pattaya. It would be redundant.


I accept the first part (except of course, as the Police have confirmed in writing, there is no sign of any prostitution or facilitation of prostitution in the biggest whorehouse of the lot :evil4: )

However I don't accept the second part of your comment as it stands.
I'm not convinced that the commercial sex trade is solely responsible for all the social healthcare issues which are prevalent in Pattaya - poverty, poor education and social injustice all play a major part
Every country and city in the world has its social healthcare issues and they arise because of a multiplicity of factors, not a single factor as you suggest.
Look at the HIV rates in many African countries where, as far as I am aware, there is generally not a great many commercial-sex related businesses.
Yes, you're right. I didn't mean to put forward that these issues were caused solely by the commercial sex trade.

instead of a gay pride march in a city that sells gay sex :: why not have a straight gay for pay march ;;; where by all the straight go go boys could let the sex visitors see that they are not really gay !!

[andrewcraig]

went to a aids day concert in boystown and was surprised at the old lady running the show give this forum a shellacking. guess she does like us much.

[Beachlover]

REALLY? LOL :rolling:

What did she say? Tell us!

If you look closely you might see that old lady is really... and old man!

[jomtienbob]

Frankly, I like the idea of a Gay Pride celebration here in Pattaya. But why stop there.

There is a worldwide movement of Circuit Parties that attract the rich, Gay, youngblood. They follow this circuit around the world to hobnob with the Gay young aristocracy. Indeed, one of those parties is in Bangkok. Many of them are attached to Gay Pride events in their respective cities.

Most importantly, many of the parties double as fundraisers for needed Gay and HIV oriented charities in their respective localities.

It's high time for Gay Pattaya to improve it's image on the world scene. This year for the first time I see a huge number of young Gay Russian tourists joining with the young Aussie's and New Zealanders, for whom a tour in Pattaya is a write of passage. :party

[kittyboy]

I guess that my objection is, as you suggest Scottish-guy, to the linking of the Gay Pride concept with the simple jollifications that have been suggested here.

The name Gay Pride embodies a very important concept. And while you may not feel the need to assert the validity if your identity as a gay person in your own place of residence, the struggle for the recognition of gay rights and equality is far from won in many other parts of the world. The concept and implementation of Gay Pride parades, marches and other activities has proved to be one of the most effective ways of demonstrating to previously ignorant straight people just how many of us there are and how determined we are to achieve equal status.

To link that concept with the inward-looking shenanigans being proposed for Pattaya is to denigrate the courage of those attempting to hold Gay Pride events in the face of officially sanctioned opposition and even violence in places like, to choose one of many possible examples, Moscow.

By all means hold your celebrations and have fun - I'd love to join you! - but please call it something else, like the organisers of the White Nights shindig in Sunnee Plaza did, rather than confuse the issue by highjacking the term Gay Pride.
I agree with this. It wouldn't be right to call it "gay pride" and as I alluded to before, there is no intrinsic need for a "gay pride" event in Pattaya. It would be redundant.


I also agree with Marsilius about the importance of Gay Pride. However, I respectfully disagree with him about Gay Pride events being linked to or sponsored by bars...you got to get the money to get started from somewhere and if the bars are willing to spend the money then it is for IMHO a good cause.

However, Beachlover I am trying to parse your statement that "there is no intrinsic need for a gay pride event in Pattaya. It would be redundant."

Your statement is inane.
Gay pride is an intrinsic need for most gay men; expressing sexuality which is a key human identity.

How is Gay Pride redundant?
What exactly are you saying?
It makes no sense.

Posting in volume is not a substitute for substance.

[Marsilius]

The purpose of Gay Pride is, above all else, to make point to the straight and often hostile world. If we have, additionally, a good time in putting a Gay Pride event on, so much the better - but if that were the sole justification then the heroes who try to organise one in, say, Moscow and receive nothing but physical beatings for their efforts would never attempt it.

There is a big difference between (1) businesses doing the admirable thing by organising fund-raising activities for a publicly visible Gay Pride event that fulfills the criteria I have outlined in my earlier posts, and (2) as was originally proposed here, a purely inward-looking event that labels itself as some sort of "gay pride" occasion but does not even attempt to make an impact on the straight community.

Call the original proposal for parties at bars something else and let the putative Pattaya Gay Pride accept their donations with open arms, but please don't confuse the two. This is a question of semantics, I admit, but such an important generator of change in social history and in individual lives as the Gay Pride Movement has proven to be in the past forty years or so deserves more than to see its Pattaya incarnation appear as yet another hog roast.

[Beachlover]

Gay young aristocracy
Heh... Never heard of that term before. :scratch:


There is a worldwide movement of Circuit Parties that attract the rich, Gay, youngblood... It's high time for Gay Pattaya to improve it's image on the world scene.
That's what I've been saying for a while... Think you've hit the nail on the head.

Some members talk about needing to attract the younger generation to Pattaya, then two seconds later, they go back to posting promotions for commercial sex businesses hoping this will do it.

But most young gay guys aren't interested in gogo bars at all. Most guys I know might drop into a gogo bar for a laugh and a gawk one time but that's about it. I say this as a matter of fact... not to be for or against any type of business.

Bangkok has immense appeal for young gay travelers... it's massively popular. But what is there in Pattaya to attract young gay tourists that Bangkok doesn't do BETTER? (Actually can someone please answer this question for me?) Pattaya has a very messy, dirty, sleazy feel. It's not pretty and there's little glamorous about it. There's a few pockets of nice developments but these are few and far between.

I think the city's better off promoting itself as a cheap holiday destination for the emerging masses of Russians, Chinese and Arabs who aren't so savvy/classy and hence, won't be so fussy about where they go. I think Pattaya is actually better equipped to service them.


I am trying to parse your statement that "there is no intrinsic need for a gay pride event in Pattaya. It would be redundant."

Your statement is inane.
Gay pride is an intrinsic need for most gay men; expressing sexuality which is a key human identity.

How is Gay Pride redundant?
This was a long time ago but you should read the rest of my post and the reasoning given.

I didn't say gay pride was redundant. I said I believe gay pride EVENTS were redundant for PATTAYA. Maybe that's too strong a word to use. I would argue that the need for such an event is weak. Look at the needs and desires, which gay pride events fulfill elsewhere and ask yourself if those needs and desires are as strong in Pattaya. Does anyone bat an eyelid at a gay couple walking around Pattaya? No. Do gay people get discriminated against and feel they need to stay in the closet there? Rarely.

[jinks]

Gay young aristocracy

That was me, 40 years ago, running the best gay club in the midlands and being known in every gay establishment in England worth metioning.

The only place where I was not known was Heaven. No loss I did not like the place.
Monday nights in the Hippodrome on the VIP balcony, thats a very long different story.

Our first "pride" was in 1983 called The 5 days of Fun, where all the bars and clubs worked together for The August bank holiday.

OK already Beachlover, I for one am tired of hearing about what a dump Pattaya is, how it is a sleazy prostitute area has absolutely no charm or attraction at all to you young folk but personally I am tired of hearing about it in almost every other post. Maybe it isnt as glamourous as those 10 star hotels you hop in and out of via your private lear jet but some of us live here and enjoy it.
Its time you got off that megaphone of yours about Pattaya and prostitutes.

[Marsilius]

Our first "pride" was in 1983 called The 5 days of Fun, where all the bars and clubs worked together for The August bank holiday.

What kept you, jinks? I can easily beat that. I have photographs of myself at a Gay Pride event in Waterlow Park, Highgate, London, in 1971.

calm down justme you have to realise beachy has been to pattaya once and therefore he knows far more about the place than you do !!!!
what amazes me is how someone can love bangkok yet hate pattaya ... *tell me something pattaya does better than bangkok* nothing id say .. i can almost walk thru boystown and sunnee without being yanked into a bar .. i sure as hell have far more trouble walking thru the gay sois of bangkok without getting hasseled..
in all honesty beachy i think you need to take another visit to pattaya .. as it may well have changed since you was last there ... if you can lower yourself that far ... you really are a pompus twat at times ..
do tell me why you come onto a board that is mainly about pattaya when you cant actually stand the place ??
deary me

Gay young aristocracy

That was me, 40 years ago, running the best gay club in the midlands and being known in every gay establishment in England worth metioning.

The only place where I was not known was Heaven. No loss I did not like the place.
Monday nights in the Hippodrome on the VIP balcony, thats a very long different story....

And to think it's come to this, darling - the VIP deckchair and umbrella at Dongtan Beach :sign5:

Are you talking about the Nightingale? - I don't mean the one that sang in Berkeley Square either.

:evil4:

[jinks]

Yes, sadly so, it went into administration last week.
Still making money, however our wonderful bankers called in a loan without it being due.
Hey the BANK of Scotland ... the one created by an Act of Parliment.

40+ years of history, I will write a book on it one of these days.

[Beachlover]

in all honesty beachy i think you need to take another visit to pattaya .. as it may well have changed since you was last there
I visited Pattaya once in 2008 and once in 2009. I have taken another visit this year, partly out of curiosity and yes, I agree it has changed and is a little better than it was the previous time... No further comment.

[Neal]

If you really did visit it this year maybe you could shed some light on why if you found it better than years past why do you still put it down so much?
Of course and why you did not introduce yourself to me as you said you would. Huh?
PS you told me you were going away for the next two weeks and would not be posting. What happened? I thought I was getting an early Christmas present.

[Rush, Yet Again]

If you really did visit it this year maybe you could shed some light on why if you found it better than years past why do you still put it down so much?
Of course and why you did not introduce yourself to me as you said you would. Huh?
PS you told me you were going away for the next two weeks and would not be posting. What happened? I thought I was getting an early Christmas present.

Santa is already working on your Xmas present Neal . . .

[attachment=0:327zw5lo]merry xmas neal.JPG[/attachment:327zw5lo]

[Neal]

I guess the humour in that Rush just went over my head.

[Rush, Yet Again]

lol
I should know better than to feed a straight line to a gay man, even if it is graphical.

[Beachlover]

If you really did visit it this year maybe you could shed some light on why if you found it better than years past why do you still put it down so much?
Not sure how honest I should be with my opinion here but since you asked... It has improved but not by much. The aspects, which I found unattractive haven't changed. I might post more about what I thought was GOOD in a different thread later.

I accept Pattaya is appealing to some people and have never denied that. Most people who find it appealing are also able to accept others find it unappealing as Jomtienbob commented on.

Pattaya is what it is. You can't deny it's dominated by prostitution and commercial sex, endless reams of it. You can't deny it's paradise for some and lots and lots of people are drawn to that.

[Smiles]

For most sane persons (i.e. of the few residing here, granted) receiving this particular kind of Santa 'dropping in'
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/sawatdeephotos/merryxmasneal.jpg
would be much much more desirable than Beachlover being within, let's say, a ten kilometer radius, flushably-wise.
Or more.

[kittyboy]

I am trying to parse your statement that "there is no intrinsic need for a gay pride event in Pattaya. It would be redundant."

Your statement is inane.
Gay pride is an intrinsic need for most gay men; expressing sexuality which is a key human identity.

How is Gay Pride redundant?
I didn't say gay pride was redundant. I said I believe gay pride EVENTS were redundant for PATTAYA. Maybe that's too strong a word to use. I would argue that the need for such an event is weak. Look at the needs and desires, which gay pride events fulfill elsewhere and ask yourself if those needs and desires are as strong in Pattaya. Does anyone bat an eyelid at a gay couple walking around Pattaya? No. Do gay people get discriminated against and feel they need to stay in the closet there? Rarely.

Beachlover think about what you write then write it not the other way around. The need for a Gay Pride event is as strong in Pattaya as it is anywhere else.

Marsilius makes the excellent comment that "]The purpose of Gay Pride is, above all else, to make point to the straight and often hostile world." The heteros in pattaya may be too indifferent, boozed, up sex addled or sun drenched to care but having gay pride events sends a message to heterosexuals that gays and lesbians are not ashamed of their identity. Additionally, it allows closeted gays and lesbians (there are some of those on vacation in pattaya) the chance to see gays and lesbians being proud and openly expressing their sexual identity. In the west the press often has stories about these events which contributes to acceptance and tolerance of gays and lesbians. So if Pattaya has a Gay Pride event and it is mentioned in the BKK press the positive impact spreads far beyond the extreme city.

My Thai friends tell me that Thailand is not the gay paradise that gay men in the west envision. I have have a friend who is in his late 30s and he has not come out to his parents. Maybe Thailand needs more gay pride events, in BKK and Pattaya.


John Wooden, a famous basketball coach in the US said "Don't mistake activity for achievement".
BL don't mistake mass posting for substantive contribution.

[Brad the Impala]

The need for a Gay Pride event is as strong in Pattaya as it is anywhere else.

Marsilius makes the excellent comment that "]The purpose of Gay Pride is, above all else, to make point to the straight and often hostile world." The heteros in pattaya may be too indifferent, boozed, up sex addled or sun drenched to care but having gay pride events sends a message to heterosexuals that gays and lesbians are not ashamed of their identity. Additionally, it allows closeted gays and lesbians (there are some of those on vacation in pattaya) the chance to see gays and lesbians being proud and openly expressing their sexual identity.

But that's the point, Pattaya isn't a hostile world for gay men, and gay men there display very little shame about their sexuality, and many of them are openly expressing their sexuality quite enough, thank you! Therefore having a gay festival, backed by commercial enterprises, makes sense, but the point in a pride event.....can't see it.




My Thai friends tell me that Thailand is not the gay paradise that gay men in the west envision. I have have a friend who is in his late 30s and he has not come out to his parents. Maybe Thailand needs more gay pride events, in BKK and Pattaya.


The gay men in Thailand who are closeted are likely to be middle class, especially Thai Chinese, who think that Pattaya is a cesspit set up to service depraved foreigners, and no amount of pride events there would change their mind at all!

[Beachlover]

Thanks Brad... You pretty much wrote my reply to Kittyboy for me.

The need for a gay pride event in Pattaya is low compared other more "hostile" or "ignorant" cities in the region such as Kuala Lumpur, Phnom Penh, Singapore and just about any city in China, Vietnam and Indonesia.

I noticed the Chiang Mai/Chiang Rai area seems a bit more homophobic than other parts of Thailand - this is purely an anecdotal observation garnered from talking to guys who's families are from this area. Maybe they need a gay pride event there... I recall they attempted to have one sometime ago.

[kittyboy]

The need for a Gay Pride event is as strong in Pattaya as it is anywhere else.

Marsilius makes the excellent comment that "]The purpose of Gay Pride is, above all else, to make point to the straight and often hostile world." The heteros in pattaya may be too indifferent, boozed, up sex addled or sun drenched to care but having gay pride events sends a message to heterosexuals that gays and lesbians are not ashamed of their identity. Additionally, it allows closeted gays and lesbians (there are some of those on vacation in pattaya) the chance to see gays and lesbians being proud and openly expressing their sexual identity.

But that's the point, Pattaya isn't a hostile world for gay men, and gay men there display very little shame about their sexuality, and many of them are openly expressing their sexuality quite enough, thank you! Therefore having a gay festival, backed by commercial enterprises, makes sense, but the point in a pride event.....can't see it.




My Thai friends tell me that Thailand is not the gay paradise that gay men in the west envision. I have have a friend who is in his late 30s and he has not come out to his parents. Maybe Thailand needs more gay pride events, in BKK and Pattaya.


The gay men in Thailand who are closeted are likely to be middle class, especially Thai Chinese, who think that Pattaya is a cesspit set up to service depraved foreigners, and no amount of pride events there would change their mind at all!

Oh silly brad..I know you are the type of person that will appreciate your wrong thinking being addressed. As has been pointed out...Gay Pride is also an education for the hetero population. All those tourists from other places less tolerant will absolutely benefit from a Gay Pride in Pattaya. That is another among many that have been put forward as to why Gay Pride is such a good idea for Pattaya.

No need to thank me.
I know you are glad I have corrected your thinking.
As for BL he is beyond hope.

[Brad the Impala]

Gay Pride is also an education for the hetero population. All those tourists from other places less tolerant will absolutely benefit from a Gay Pride in Pattaya. That is another among many that have been put forward as to why Gay Pride is such a good idea for Pattaya.


I am sure the Russians, and people "from other places less tolerant" will be very educated by seeing a lot of men in drag and gogo boys in shorts parading! After all there is no other opportunity in Pattaya to see that. They might even be brave enough to join the guys on the gay beach afterwards. Oh wait a minute, they are already there!

[Beachlover]

Kittyboy, rather than insult your intellectual superiors, ask yourself this...

Why is there no Thai-driven gay pride event in Pattaya or even Bangkok then?

Because the intrinsic need isn't there. Thailand isn't gay-perfect but as a gay guy you feel more comfortable there than oh... just about any other country in Asia.

If the need was strong enough, someone would've done it by now, just as they did in Chiang Mai (unfortunately unsuccessful).

[kittyboy]

Kittyboy, rather than insult your intellectual superiors, ask yourself this...

Why is there no Thai-driven gay pride event in Pattaya or even Bangkok then?

Because the intrinsic need isn't there. Thailand isn't gay-perfect but as a gay guy you feel more comfortable there than oh... just about any other country in Asia.

If the need was strong enough, someone would've done it by now, just as they did in Chiang Mai (unfortunately unsuccessful).

Oh you silly silly boy...I generally respect not insult my intellectual superiors (and there are many of them out there). If you are referring to my comments to Brad...He may or may not be my intellectual superior, I do not know him well enough to put him in an intellectual pecking order, however, challenging other peoples' statements and competing in the arena of ideas is all part of the fun.

I wish you could join us.
Let me see your argument is that there are no Gay Pride events in Pattaya because they are not needed because if they were needed they would have occurred already.
Look up the definition of circular reasoning and tautology.

BL - If you were in one of my classes your lack of intellectual progress would be a serious academic issue. I would recommend remedial courses on thinking.

Hope the hint is helpful.

The Year In Review
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/12/grow ... y-in-2011/ (http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2011/12/growth-of-international-projects-helps-evolve-gay-rights-visibility-in-2011/)
LGBT Activism
Growth of international projects helps evolve gay rights, visibility in 2011
By Paul Canning

Same-sex marriage was a leading international concern throughout 2011

Continuing a series of posts on the significant developments in the LGBT community in 2011, the growth of activism and international projects help shape the continuing evolution of gay rights and visibility around the world.
The growth of international projects

The May 17 International Day Against Homophobia and Transphobia (IDAHO), initiated by the black gay French leader Louis-Georges Tin, exploded this year with events from Lebanon to Fiji тАУ in all over 70 countries took part.

Dancer at New Delhi Pride, November 2011

One highlight amongst many: the presence, the voice of Burmese LGBT at events in Thailand. The spread of participation also highlighted the gaps тАУ such as most of the Middle East and North Africa and elsewhere in Africa тАУ as well as the almost total absence of IDAHO events in the United States.

The тАШIt Gets BetterтАЩ project tackling bullying of LGBT teens and suicide drew large (although almost completely partisan) participation in the U.S. but extended beyond to Finland, Canada, the United Kingdom, the European Union, Malaysia, South Africa and Sweden. Diaspora Middle Eastern gays produced videos. In other countries, like the Netherlands and the UK, their own anti-bullying projects were launched with state backing.

In Africa weтАЩve seen the growth of networks (and networking) such as via the now 831-member strong International Lesbian and Gay Association (ILGA) African branch, headquartered in South Africa, as well as of other pan-African networks like Amsher, which focuses on HIV/AIDS projects for both gay men as well as men-who-have-sex-with-men (MSM). There was also new LGBT media in Africa: The news website Behind The Mask, again out of South Africa, grew with many new correspondents covering much of the continent. There are two new LGBTI magazines in Kenya, one online and another in print. In September Q-zine launched as тАЬthe pan-African voice for LGBTI and queer youthтАЭ.

тАШPrideтАЩ and the rainbow flag became increasingly visible in India with marches seen both in new cities and more and bigger events in the biggest cities. 2011 saw increasing depictions and discussions of homosexuality in the Indian news media and by Bollywood.

The impact of international funding and organized training in Africa and elsewhere showed in more professional organizing and in improved relationships with both civil society and with local media. A particular highlight is Kenya which now has scores of groups including ones in remote areas. International HIV/Aids funding began to recognize a requirement to fund gay/MSM local projects and to oppose the criminalization of homosexuality because of its impact on HIV/Aids prevention, however 2012 will likely see a setback with the announcement of a funding crisis at the biggest funder, the Global Fund.

Organised religious support for LGBT rights in Africa also grew, particularly marked by the work of the group Other Sheep, and the international activism of Anglican Bishop Christopher Senyonjo, from Uganda.

The international LGBT-specific тАШclictivismтАЩ project allout.org grew to over a million members, highlighting the core role of the Web and social media in LGBT activism everywhere, but also the flip-side of activismтАЩs susceptibility to monitoring and crackdown тАУ as has been tried in Turkey.

Earlier this month the United States announced that it was embedding international LGBT human rights engagement throughout government, including creating a new fund for grass-roots projects and directing that anti-discrimination be encouraged from USAID contractors. This announcement builds on earlier efforts, mainly of some European governments like the Dutch, who announced this year the creation of a huge fund for MSM/gay HIV/Aids projects that will help isolated communities, mainly in Africa.

In a development which will have long term implications, the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR), which covers Latin America and the Caribbean, set up an LGBT rights unit.
Next: The Decriminalization of Homosexuality and Anti-discrimination Efforts,
Coming Friday.
Paul Canning, is a gay rights campaigner and Editor of LGBT Asylum News.

[Beachlover]

Let me see your argument is that there are no Gay Pride events in Pattaya because they are not needed because if they were needed they would have occurred already.
No, fuzzy brains... my argument is the intrinsic need for a gay pride event doesn't exist strongly enough in Pattaya. The fact that no one's attempted to start one in recent history is just a supporting point.

As a gay guy or gay couple you almost never feel uncomfortable in Pattaya. The need/demand for such an event is almost non-existent. It's minuscule relative to other major cities in the region. You know which countries need gay pride events? Malaysia, China, Vietnam, India... places like that. Pattaya and Bangkok? No. There's few easier places in the world to be gay.


BL - If you were in one of my classes your lack of intellectual progress would be a serious academic issue. I would recommend remedial courses on thinking.
Never had any problems with any of my lecturers but if you told me that I would tell you piss off out of the lecture theatre into the real world and come back when you earn more than me! :sign5:

[kittyboy]

Let me see your argument is that there are no Gay Pride events in Pattaya because they are not needed because if they were needed they would have occurred already.
No, fuzzy brains... my argument is the intrinsic need for a gay pride event doesn't exist strongly enough in Pattaya. The fact that no one's attempted to start one in recent history is just a supporting point.

As a gay guy or gay couple you almost never feel uncomfortable in Pattaya. The need/demand for such an event is almost non-existent. It's minuscule relative to other major cities in the region. You know which countries need gay pride events? Malaysia, China, Vietnam, India... places like that. Pattaya and Bangkok? No. There's few easier places in the world to be gay.

:sign5:
Oh you silly silly boy.
You repeated your previous post and your previous post is wrong. Repeating the argument does not change the fact that it is tautological and circular reasoning. It makes no sense.

I am using your own words (you seem to have trouble when I paraphrased your arguments) here;
"There are no gay pride events in Pattaya".
"The intrinsic need for a gay pride event is small".
"If Gay Pride were needed in Pattaya someone would have put on a Gay Pride event"
(Demonstrating the need for such and event which implied by your argument.) This is circular reasoning. It is not valid as an argument. Sorry, you need to go back to school and study up.

Serious BL your argument is just not valid, read up on tautological arguments.

[kittyboy]

BL - If you were in one of my classes your lack of intellectual progress would be a serious academic issue. I would recommend remedial courses on thinking.
Never had any problems with any of my lecturers but if you told me that I would tell you piss off out of the lecture theatre into the real world and come back when you earn more than me! :sign5:

I see the problem here. You attended classes that were offered in large lecture theaters (American Spelling) where it is almost impossible to offer up proper instruction using the Socratic method. I believe that is the deficiency. I encourage my students to challenge me and think independently but I expect them to craft strong solid arguments based on inductive and deductive reasoning..not the circular reasoning your are offering up.

Ah..I see your final comments are the money argument. Since you must make more money than I make as a result you are more handsome, smarter, and correct in this matter. You are again making a bad argument here. Money does not translate into being right.

I hope you find my comments helpful in addressing the shortcomings in your arguments and thought processes.

kitty im glad im not as educated as your good self .. in my small world once the question of money comes up i always tend to belive the 'i earn more than you' thingy means the argument has run its race and has been lost ..
its finally got to the *hitler point* and becomes pointless to carry on ... you won ... well done :occasion9:

[kittyboy]

kitty im glad im not as educated as your good self .. in my small world once the question of money comes up i always tend to belive the 'i earn more than you' thingy means the argument has run its race and has been lost ..
its finally got to the *hitler point* and becomes pointless to carry on ... you won ... well done :occasion9:

I agree that is why I pointed out BL's argument.

People can agree or disagree about these things, and believe it or not I respect your opinion on the issue I just have a very strong opinion about this issue that is (I think) different than yours, however I can appreciate your arguments and comments.

BL's comments and arguments I find are _______ use your imagination and fill in the blank.

kitty im glad im not as educated as your good self .. in my small world once the question of money comes up i always tend to belive the 'i earn more than you' thingy means the argument has run its race and has been lost ..
its finally got to the *hitler point* and becomes pointless to carry on ... you won ... well done :occasion9:

I agree that is why I pointed out BL's argument.

People can agree or disagree about these things, and believe it or not I respect your opinion on the issue I just have a very strong opinion about this issue that is (I think) different than yours, however I can appreciate your arguments and comments.

BL's comments and arguments I find are _______ use your imagination and fill in the blank.
i wasnt talking about my argument on this ... i lost intrest in it ages ago ... :blackeye: i was talking about you and beachy... seems he got out smarted and lowered it to money .. and without having a clue how much you earn ... he knows he earns more than you .. so hes far more clever ... which is a shame because i used to think people with uni backgrounds where always concidered smarted than the likes of footballers etc etc . ... wayne rooney for p.m.

[martin911]

Give it a rest eh ladies ?? :sleepy1: :sleepy1:

[Beachlover]

You repeated your previous post and your previous post is wrong. Repeating the argument does not change the fact that it is tautological and circular reasoning. It makes no sense...
(Demonstrating the need for such and event which implied by your argument.) This is circular reasoning. It is not valid as an argument. Sorry, you need to go back to school and study up.

Serious BL your argument is just not valid, read up on tautological arguments.
Repeatedly talking about circular logic and other fluff doesn't change the fact you failed to comprehend my argument. You'd rather waffle on with theories and concepts than be practical and cut to the key point. People like you are utterly useless when it comes to getting things done, which is likely why you're better off teaching.

The point about there being no gay pride event in Pattaya currently, wasn't presented as a standalone conclusive argument, nor was it the only supporting point I made. While continually picking at it, you've completely failed to address the other points Brad and I made.

My point is that the need for a gay pride event in Pattaya is low to non-existent - especially when compared to other places in the region. Gay people in Pattaya are extremely visible and not shy about their sexuality. There are few places in the world where gay people feel as free and able to be themselves as Pattaya.

It's a subjective argument so there's no factual right or wrong. You either accept it or you don't.

You obviously have a strong emotional connection with the gay pride event movement and are unable to be flexible, practical or objective on it. Seems like you couldn't accept another person's differing opinion either, so you decided to start insulting them and waffling on about theories and thought processes.

For example, you wrote...

The need for a Gay Pride event is as strong in Pattaya as it is anywhere else.
Bullshit... tell that to gay people in Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Vietnam, China (you should know) and India. Your inability to accept the level of need and priority may vary from place to place shows how completely impractical and useless your thinking is.


I see the problem here. You attended classes that were offered in large lecture theaters (American Spelling) where it is almost impossible to offer up proper instruction using the Socratic method. I believe that is the deficiency.
You clearly see f*** all. :rolling:

I'm not very academically keen but I attended one of Australia's top universities (non-fee paying student so I got in on my own academic merits). Most subjects were taught with a combination of 1-2 hours in a large lecture theatre (UK/Aussie spelling) followed by 1-2 hours of small class tutorials (usually 10-15 students). Plenty of discussion, independent thinking and highly practical assignments based on real business challenges.


Ah..I see your final comments are the money argument. Since you must make more money than I make as a result
Seems your brain (never mind Brithai's) is incapable of comprehending that wasn't part of the main argument here. Simply a hypothetical reply to the hypothetical scenario (you lecturer, me student in your class) you presented.


you are more handsome, smarter, and correct in this matter.
Thank you... those were my exact words. :sign5:

you are more handsome, smarter, and correct in this matter.
Thank you... those were my exact words. :sign5:

I'm thinking of wearing sunglasses when I come on SGF - if at all possible I want to avoid being blinded by the dazzling beauty of Beachy, Bucky, and now (we are told) Christianpfc.

I'm sure many of us mere mortals are left feeling quite inadequate in the shadow of the SGF Adonis and his two sisters

:occasion9:

[kittyboy]

you are more handsome, smarter, and correct in this matter.
Thank you... those were my exact words. :sign5:

I'm thinking of wearing sunglasses when I come on SGF - if at all possible I want to avoid being blinded by the dazzling beauty of Beachy, Bucky, and now (we are told) Christianpfc.

I'm sure many of us mere mortals are left feeling quite inadequate in the shadow of the SGF Adonis and his two sisters

:occasion9:

I am not a medical doctor but I suspect that BL and others suffer from a serious case of
SUDD!

Sarcasm Understanding Deficit Disorder.
Not fatal to the person affected but deadly to those unfortunate enough to try and have a conversation with SUDD sufferers.

[Brad the Impala]

Kitty, would you acknowledge BL's point that there would be more point and positive purpose to a Pride Parade in Peking than in Pattaya?

[kittyboy]

Kitty, would you acknowledge BL's point that there would be more point and positive purpose to a Pride Parade in Peking than in Pattaya?

I am an academic and this is one of my areas of interest...I know it sounds like BS but you can believe what you want.

I think these are complicated issues that defy an easy answer.
Would the PRC benefit from Gay Pride events? Certainly it would and Shanghai had the first gay pride event in china in 2009. How and how much people benefit from these events is hard to measure and state difinitivley. However the research shows that there is benefit from these type of events.

The benefits come at the level of the individual, the group and society.
It is impossible to state that a Gay Pride Event in China is more beneficial than one in Thailand. Gays in China are very closeted but no one can say they would benefit more than gay individuals in thailand...it is a question that can not be answered. What are you measuring? How do you define benefit? How do you make the comparison? What level - the individual, the group, and society - benefits and by how much?

I understand the point you and BL are trying to make but I think you are limiting your view that the benefit of Gay Pride events accrue to Gays who are residing directly in Pattaya. The research clearly shows that the positive impact of these events is much more wide spread than just local gays and lesbians. So no I will not say that your view or BL's view is correct, which I think is that Gay Pride events in Pattaya are unnecessary because gays and lesbians are so open here.

There are many closeted gays in thailand who would benefit. Or I should say the research shows that gays and lesbians in the west have benefited at different levels in the past from such events and if we can generalize to thailand then it should be true that Gay Pride Events have widespread benefit in thailand as well.

[Brad the Impala]

There are many closeted gays in thailand who would benefit. Or I should say the research shows that gays and lesbians in the west have benefited at different levels in the past from such events and if we can generalize to thailand then it should be true that Gay Pride Events have widespread benefit in thailand as well.

For me this is the flaw in your argument. You can't make the assumption that the "long term good" that was done in Western societies that were traditionally intolerant of homosexuality would be replicated in an Oriental society that is traditionally tolerant of homosexuality. While I wouldn't say that a pride event held in Pattaya would necessarily be counterproductive, I believe that by choosing that location as a venue it would inevitably skew perception of the lifestyle to being tied to commercial sex, and as such I don't think that it would be of much help to closeted gays in mainstream society.

By "long term good" I am thinking of recognition by individuals and governments that homosexuals are of equal value to society as heterosexuals(at least!) and are entitled to the same rights and legal status. That process starts with recognition of our existence and unwillingness to hide away, which is where the importance of pride events came in. I'm not really arguing against having such events in Pattaya, just can't really see the usefulness of it.

[Beachlover]

I think these are complicated issues that defy an easy answer.... I understand the point you and BL are trying to make but I think you are limiting your view that...
Good... I accept you have a differing point of view but this is too subjective a topic to nail as right/wrong and sling arrows over it.


I think you are limiting your view that the benefit of Gay Pride events accrue to Gays who are residing directly in Pattaya. The research clearly shows that the positive impact of these events is much more wide spread than just local gays and lesbians.
Sure... that may be true but then the majority of the benefit probably goes to the locals so logically, you locate the event where it's most needed right? I mean, if a gay pride event is most needed in Peking, you don't hold it in Pattaya just because some of the benefits will flow on to gays in Peking.

[Beachlover]

While I wouldn't say that a pride event held in Pattaya would necessarily be counterproductive, I believe that by choosing that location as a venue it would inevitably skew perception of the lifestyle to being tied to commercial sex, and as such I don't think that it would be of much help to closeted gays in mainstream society.
Good point... I hadn't thought of that and I agree.


You can't make the assumption that the "long term good" that was done in Western societies that were traditionally intolerant of homosexuality would be replicated in an Oriental society that is traditionally tolerant of homosexuality.
This is valid... I will add to it by saying, I've always wondered if the type of gay colourful gay pride events we commonly see are the best way to go about achieving those aims you list. I'm not saying they're not... I just wonder if sometimes, there could be a better way.

One downside of most of these gay pride events is while they can be a lot of fun for gays, don't they promote a LOT of stereotypes with the kinky/skimpy costumes and their highly sexualised nature? Maybe this loud and proud thing is good. I don't know.

But I like the approach they have in Singapore, where rather than a protest or parade, they hold a very non-intimidating, down to Earth and heart warming event with a potently crafted message each year. It's carefully designed to intertwine with the local culture and society's values to engage non-gays. The event is something gay guys coming out to their families might be more comfortable bringing their parents to, without worrying about freaking them out.

[youtube:17488nao]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9gDazG4cC0[/youtube:17488nao]

[kittyboy]

[quote=Brad the Impala]While I wouldn't say that a pride event held in Pattaya would necessarily be counterproductive, I believe that by choosing that location as a venue it would inevitably skew perception of the lifestyle to being tied to commercial sex, and as such I don't think that it would be of much help to closeted gays in mainstream society.
Good point... I hadn't thought of that and I agree.


You can't make the assumption that the "long term good" that was done in Western societies that were traditionally intolerant of homosexuality would be replicated in an Oriental society that is traditionally tolerant of homosexuality.
This is valid... I will add to it by saying, I've always wondered if the type of gay colourful gay pride events we commonly see are the best way to go about achieving those aims you list. I'm not saying they're not... I just wonder if sometimes, there could be a better way.

One downside of most of these gay pride events is while they can be a lot of fun for gays, don't they promote a LOT of stereotypes with the kinky/skimpy costumes and their highly sexualised nature? Maybe this loud and proud thing is good. I don't know.

But I like the approach they have in Singapore, where rather than a protest or parade, they hold a very non-intimidating, down to Earth and heart warming event with a potently crafted message each year. It's carefully designed to intertwine with the local culture and society's values to engage non-gays. The event is something gay guys coming out to their families might be more comfortable bringing their parents to, without worrying about freaking them out.

[youtube:3rmrtsni]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9gDazG4cC0[/youtube:3rmrtsni][/quote:3rmrtsni]

BL I am sure that Brad is delighted that you are putting your full intelectual weight behind his thoughts on a Gay Pride for Pattaya.
I also sucpect that he is delighted that you are his defender against an insulting bully such as myself. He seems capable of defending himself against attack so why you need to step into that role is a serious mystery.

I am also heartened to see that you have given up trying to defend your circular logic.

[kittyboy]

There are many closeted gays in thailand who would benefit. Or I should say the research shows that gays and lesbians in the west have benefited at different levels in the past from such events and if we can generalize to thailand then it should be true that Gay Pride Events have widespread benefit in thailand as well.

For me this is the flaw in your argument. You can't make the assumption that the "long term good" that was done in Western societies that were traditionally intolerant of homosexuality would be replicated in an Oriental society that is traditionally tolerant of homosexuality. While I wouldn't say that a pride event held in Pattaya would necessarily be counterproductive, I believe that by choosing that location as a venue it would inevitably skew perception of the lifestyle to being tied to commercial sex, and as such I don't think that it would be of much help to closeted gays in mainstream society.

By "long term good" I am thinking of recognition by individuals and governments that homosexuals are of equal value to society as heterosexuals(at least!) and are entitled to the same rights and legal status. That process starts with recognition of our existence and unwillingness to hide away, which is where the importance of pride events came in. I'm not really arguing against having such events in Pattaya, just can't really see the usefulness of it.

I understand your points and some are valid.
Whether or not a Gay Pride Event in Pattaya would have a positive impact on the lives of gays and lesbians throughout Thailand is ultimately a difficult empirical questions. However, my approach is grounded in lots and lots of past research which if generaliazble says YES it would have a positive impact.

[Brad the Impala]

Off and running with the Pattaya Pride events for 2012.


The first event is Miss Pattaya Pride 2012 on January 22 in Boyztown, followed by Mr Pattaya Pride 2012 on February 19 in Boyztown.

http://www.cambodiaout.com/thailand/pattaya-venue-guide/pattaya-pride-2012/