A definition required, perhaps?

[James Barnes]

At dinner last night, the topic of the gay community in Thailand was discussed. One diner said that there was no such thing. What are your thoughts?

[gregvc]

Until recently, most Thais thought that Gay meant ladyboy. The political themes of human rights were not really acknowleged. I hope that is changing. But the concept of gay community is very vague.

[thonglor55]

There's no such thing as a gay community, period. A community means having interests (plural) in common, and the only interest gays have in common is pushing their cocks into each other's orifices.

[cdnmatt]

Not really, nope. No need for one either, because for all intents and purposes, nobody gives a shit if you're gay.

[Patexpat]

Not really, nope. No need for one either, because for all intents and purposes, nobody gives a shit if you're gay.

yup, in my experience spot on Matt.

It all sounds like Farangs who still have hang-ups about their sexuality being unable to leave them at home.

[Dodger]

One third of the gay farang population who live in or around the gay venues in Thailand are expats - and two thirds are gay visitors on holiday who are not there long enough to form a real bedrock for what we refer to as a "community," although to the gay Thais this is very different.

The Thais who migrate to the gay scenes in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai do so initially with the primary motive of earning money, although very commonly get attached to the Thai gay sub-community - which for them, provides a life and a lifestyle among other gays similar to the way that the so-called "gay communities" in the West are formed. Some Thais, especially those who are truly gay, never leave these sub-communities even when their work in ther sex industry has stopped. Ladyboys and the more effeminate gays being a prime example of this.

It was the gay farang who set the dynamics in play which created these gay communites for the Thais, although, the primary motive of the gay farang has always been on "sex", which in-and-by-itself does not provide the adhesion needed to form any kind of community - gay or otherwise.

[Beachlover]

At dinner last night, the topic of the gay community in Thailand was discussed. One diner said that there was no such thing. What are your thoughts?
How do you define community in this context? Do you refer to the whole of Thailand or just the farang gay community?

If you're asking if there's a community and sub-culture of gay farang who visit or live in Thailand to have sex with prostitutes/moneyboys, then yes, from observation, I'd say there's a bit of a community.

Otherwise, in wider Thailand, there's no one big gay community but probably various small ones.


The Thais who migrate to the gay scenes in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai do so initially with the primary motive of earning money, although very commonly get attached to the Thai gay sub-community - which for them, provides a life and a lifestyle among other gays similar to the way that the so-called "gay communities" in the West are formed. Some Thais, especially those who are truly gay, never leave these sub-communities even when their work in ther sex industry has stopped. Ladyboys and the more effeminate gays being a prime example of this.
I agree with most of what you say here but the perspective is inaccurate. You're referring solely to the commercial sex scene, not the wider gay scene as a whole. The commercial sex scene is only a tiny segment of the gay scene in Bangkok and Chiang Mai (different in Pattaya where it dominates). Those who "migrate" to this are prostitutes. Your overview is accurate for them but not for the majority of gays in Thailand.

[Dodger]

Beachlover wrote:


Your overview is accurate for them but not for the majority of gays in Thailand.

My overview focused on the Thai gay sub-communities in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Phuket, because ouitside of these areas I have never witnessed anything resembling a gay community (Thai or farang). That doesn't mean they don't exist - I just haven't seen them if they do.

If someone has any knowledge of a gay community outside of these areas it wouid be interesting to learn more.

[cameroncat]

Beachlover is right. There is a whole separate gay culture for Gay Thai's who aren't into Farangs who never (or very rarely) go to Gay establishments in the Silom area.

[Brisboy82]

Beachlover is right. There is a whole separate gay culture for Gay Thai's who aren't into Farangs who never (or very rarely) go to Gay establishments in the Silom area.

Its been said that the Thai only gay scene is actually much bigger than the Thai-farang scene that we are familiar with.

[thonglor55]

As the last several posters have (inadvertently?) confirmed there is no gay community; there are several sub-cultures or "scenes" some of which are mutually exclusive. I suppose it could be said that there's a "hanging around boy bars looking for prostitutes" scene or sub-culture, but it would certainly be a stretch to call it a "community".

As the last several posters have (inadvertently?) confirmed there is no gay community; there are several sub-cultures or "scenes" some of which are mutually exclusive. I suppose it could be said that there's a "hanging around boy bars looking for prostitutes" scene or sub-culture, but it would certainly be a stretch to call it a "community".

I agree,

There is no REAL gay community just a load of sub culture.

The Thai government doesn't recognise gay/civil partnerships or marriages. Even Katoeys are stereotyped on the TV and held up for ridicule.

I remember the Mayor of Pattaya, at the annual parade, rerouting the gay section of the parade, We were obviously an embarrassment to them.

Posters should also understand that ' tolerated ' and ' accepted ' are two totally different things in Thailand. Amazing, isn't it, even the str8 bar boys don't want to be seen in gay areas these days. Oh, how things have gone full circle, yet again.

[Khor tose]

Beachlover is right. There is a whole separate gay culture for Gay Thai's who aren't into Farangs who never (or very rarely) go to Gay establishments in the Silom area.

I also agree with BL. Not even close to the same.

[Brisboy82]

As the last several posters have (inadvertently?) confirmed there is no gay community; there are several sub-cultures or "scenes" some of which are mutually exclusive. I suppose it could be said that there's a "hanging around boy bars looking for prostitutes" scene or sub-culture, but it would certainly be a stretch to call it a "community".

That goes for anywhere. In Australia we have twink bars, bear bars, mixed bars, rice queen bars. They tend not to mix much.

[thonglor55]

As the last several posters have (inadvertently?) confirmed there is no gay community; there are several sub-cultures or "scenes" some of which are mutually exclusive. I suppose it could be said that there's a "hanging around boy bars looking for prostitutes" scene or sub-culture, but it would certainly be a stretch to call it a "community".That goes for anywhere. In Australia we have twink bars, bear bars, mixed bars, rice queen bars. They tend not to mix much.I do so agree, Brisboy92 - my original post said quite clearly there is no such thing as a "gay community". Among your scenes have you considered money boys who Malay are not Indonesian in KL - the majority of KL money boys I believe you to say?

[Beachlover]

The Thais who migrate to the gay scenes in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai do so initially with the primary motive of earning money...

Your overview is accurate for them but not for the majority of gays in Thailand.
My overview focused on the Thai gay sub-communities in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Phuket, because ouitside of these areas I have never witnessed anything resembling a gay community (Thai or farang). That doesn't mean they don't exist - I just haven't seen them if they do.
No, your original post assumes all Thais who attend "the gay scenes" in the three cities are prostitutes and implies the commercial sex segment of the gay scene is all there is.

Reality is, the farang-oriented commercial sex scene is a small part of the overall gay scene/s in Thailand's cities (except Pattaya). Most gay Thais don't prostitute themselves for money. Implying that the farang-oriented commercial sex scene is "the gay scene" in Thailand is insulting and inaccurate. That's all I was trying to say.


Posters should also understand that ' tolerated ' and ' accepted ' are two totally different things in Thailand...
I agree... contrary to immediate impressions, it's not all roses for gays in Thailand. But I think it's still better than what we get in most Western countries. My opinion is the tolerance and acceptance is still better in Thailand.


That goes for anywhere. In Australia we have twink bars, bear bars, mixed bars, rice queen bars. They tend not to mix much.
Going by your handle... you're from Brisbane right? I'm curious, what gay bars does Brisbane actually have and what are you referring to above?

[Brisboy82]

Brisbanes gay scene is fairly limited but it's roughly:

Fluffy which is at family nightclub which is mostly 18-20 sort of age group.

The beat megaclub which is mostly guys in their 20s and lesbians.

The wickham which is mostly guys in their 30s and 40s and some Asian guys.

Sporties which is mostly bears, chubs, rice queens, old white guys with young Asians, miscellaneous.

There's some crossover but those are the general scenes in brisbane.

[Dodger]

Beachlover wrote:


No, your original post assumes all Thais who attend "the gay scenes" in the three cities are prostitutes and implies the commercial sex segment of the gay scene is all there is.

No, actually in my origianl post I assumed nothing of the sort.

Not all gay Thais who migrate to the hot spots in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Phuket do so to sell their bodies....as many seek work in the hotel industry, travel industry, restaurants, hair salons, department stores, internet shops, etc., etc., and drawing the perspective (as you did) that all gay Thais who migrate to these areas must be doing so solely to sell their bodies is not a correct assumption. Your perspective is skewed...that's all I'm saying.

Also, just to broaden your horizons a little, I've played in that Thai gay scene in Bangkok with non-money boys before, as well as a few university towns, and got laid every time. In Thailand there's a very fine line between those who are categorized by some as being "prostitutes" and just the average Joe. Don't let the fact that they aren't wearing numbers on their underpants throw you.

[Brisboy82]

Beachlover wrote:


No, your original post assumes all Thais who attend "the gay scenes" in the three cities are prostitutes and implies the commercial sex segment of the gay scene is all there is.

Also, just to broaden your horizons a little, I've played in that Thai gay scene in Bangkok with non-money boys before, as well as a few university towns, and got laid every time. In Thailand there's a very fine line between those who are categorized by some as being "prostitutes" and just the average Joe. Don't let the fact that they aren't wearing numbers on their underpants throw you.
there's no fine line if they don't receive any benefit. I have had young Thai guys who wouldn't veb let me buy hem
Dinner. And then there's the ones who have fed and accommodated me in their apartment or home who also refused any kind of compensation and to this day have never asked me for anything apart from my company. Thais aren't all whores!

[Dodger]

Brisboy82 wrote:

[quote]I have had young Thai guys who wouldn't veb let me buy hem Dinner. quote]

After the tip you left them they probably figured you couldn't afford it...55555

[Brisboy82]

Brisboy82 wrote:


I have had young Thai guys who wouldn't veb let me buy hem Dinner. quote]

After the tip you left them they probably figured you couldn't afford it...55555
I never gave them any tip they were never moneyboys.

One was my boyfriend For about a year until I broke up with him. He never once asked for money.

[gregvc]

yess, Brisboy, my partner (14 yrs together) was a businessman. Probably easier to meet up with non commercial scene when you live in Thailand, but I am not gods gift to men and I found it relatively easy to meet when you became a regular (not talking about Babylon) at Thai venues. Important to fit in as much as a farang can, and not be the western diva.

[Dodger]

gregvc wrote:

[quote]yess, Brisboy, my partner (14 yrs together) was a businessman. Probably easier to meet up with non commercial scene when you live in Thailand, but I am not gods gift to men and I found it relatively easy to meet when you became a regular (not talking about Babylon) at Thai venues. Important to fit in as much as a farang can, and not be the western diva[/quote

Greg, first, congratulations on what sounds to be a well-balanced and successful relationship.

To help get the OP's question answered - can you give us your opinion on "gay communities". Have the Thais in the area where you live formed what you would refer to as a "gay community"? If so, can you share some details. Also, have you seen the forming of any farang gay communities?

I think the OP would appreciate getting the facts from someone like yourself was actually lives in LOS - versus us part-timers who sometime sound like we know it all.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[Beachlover]

No, your original post assumes all Thais who attend "the gay scenes" in the three cities are prostitutes and implies the commercial sex segment of the gay scene is all there is.
No, actually in my origianl post I assumed nothing of the sort.
Yes, you did. You said...


The Thais who migrate to the gay scenes in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai do so initially with the primary motive of earning money, although very commonly get attached to the Thai gay sub-community - which for them, provides a life and a lifestyle among other gays similar to the way that the so-called "gay communities" in the West are formed. Some Thais, especially those who are truly gay, never leave these sub-communities even when their work in ther sex industry has stopped.
Migrating to a gay scene has nothing to do with earning money unless it's from prostitution in a commercial sex gay scene. A tourist scene or big city scene with more jobs yes, but specifically a gay scene, no (other than prostitution).

In this situation, you also imply the farang gay scene comes first and the Thai scene is an off shoot of this, which they find afterwards. Possibly right for Pattaya but wrong for Chiang Mai and Bangkok.

I was talking to a Thai tonight who said one of the main reasons he stayed in Bangkok was for the (gay) nightlife you get in a big city (he hates the countryside, mountains etc. where he's from). He enjoys his social life. He used to go out 3-4 nights week partying and drinking with friends in the gay scene (and no, I didn't ask him if there was a "gay community"), enjoying his single life and it had nothing to do with farang or the commercial sex scene.

No point arguing over it... what you said is what you said and in my opinion, it's wrong.


In Thailand there's a very fine line between those who are categorized by some as being "prostitutes" and just the average Joe. Don't let the fact that they aren't wearing numbers on their underpants throw you.
No, a prostitute is a prostitute. If someone's accepting cash or support for sex, that's what they are, be it an ongoing thing or once off. There are millions of Thais who have enough self respect and principles to never consider an offer of cash or support for sex.

I accept there's a grey area where boys will hook up with guys they find attractive as normal but offer themselves to other guys who are older or unattractive for some cash. But at the end of the day, they are still prostitutes. Whether you perceive that negatively and to what extent is another matter.



In Thailand there's a very fine line between those who are categorized by some as being "prostitutes" and just the average Joe. Don't let the fact that they aren't wearing numbers on their underpants throw you.
there's no fine line if they don't receive any benefit.
Totally agree... the exception is when comes to longer-term relationships, which can be more complex as the two parties don't always earn the same income.


Brisbanes gay scene is fairly limited but it's roughly...
Cool, thanks for that. Might see myself in Brisbane soon.

[Dodger]

Beachlover wrote:


Migrating to a gay scene has nothing to do with earning money unless it's from prostitution in a commercial sex gay scene. A tourist scene or big city scene with more jobs yes, but specifically a gay scene, no (other than prostitution).

You're talking in circles (again).

Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Phuket just happen to be the largest tourist attractions in the Kingdom and many boys (and girls) migrate to these meccas to earn money from the tourist trade in general...not all come their to sell flesh.

You mentioned in another post that you wondered what it would be like to be a prostitute - which didn't surprise me, as prostitution is much more accepted in asian cultures in general - and it's fairly common for those with little means to sell it - and those with ample means to buy it, with very lttle stigma attached. Of course there are always those buyers (punters) who try to position themselves on a higher plateau than the sellers (prostitutes), but in all reality, they are one in the same. I'm only saying this because you either inadvertently, or intentionally, attempt to downgrade Thai prostitutes" repeatedly in your threads - giving one the impression that you are somehow a more worthy person or of a higher stature, which of course only serves to place you at at the lowest of levels - and I don't think you're aware of it.

Communities, regardless of where they're formed or their composition - center around a nucleus which attracts those who migrate to them. Evan if the nucleus we see in Thailand is centered around the gay sex venues - it really doesn't matter. The fact is that not everyone in the community is there to sell or buy flesh - but simply to enjoy being around those with similar intersts and lifestyles. Boyztown and Sunee Plaza only acoount for a small percentage of of the total population of Pattaya, and the perception that all the Thai boys who migrate their do so to sell their bodies is a gross misperception. The perception that those who do decide to sell their bodies are to be considered as being of lesser value as a person is another gross misperception.

As mentioned before, I haven't come across any other gay communities outside of these areas - and if someone has I'm sure the OP would be interested in learning more.

Sorry James, I didn't intend to derail your topic. Welcome to SGT...555.

[Brisboy82]

Most gay Thais are not interested in farangs. They flock to Bangkok for the gay scene and yet never go anywhere near farang areas like Silom. You don't see them because they have no interest in hanging around farangs.

Most gay Thais are not interested in farangs. They flock to Bangkok for the gay scene and yet never go anywhere near farang areas like Silom. You don't see them because they have no interest in hanging around farangs.



Aaaaw,


You mean he lied when he told me he loved me??? I am in pieces now!

[Brad the Impala]

No, your original post assumes all Thais who attend "the gay scenes" in the three cities are prostitutes and implies the commercial sex segment of the gay scene is all there is.
No, actually in my origianl post I assumed nothing of the sort.

Yes, you did. You said...


The Thais who migrate to the gay scenes in Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai do so initially with the primary motive of earning money,
Migrating to a gay scene has nothing to do with earning money unless it's from prostitution in a commercial sex gay scene. A tourist scene or big city scene with more jobs yes, but specifically a gay scene, no (other than prostitution).

I also was quite taken aback by Dodger's original comments, which seemed to make a judgment about all Thai gay guys who relocate to enjoy urban gay scenes as being driven by commercial reasons, with the implicit meaning that they must therefore be going to prostitute themselves. The comment seemed both out of character for the writer, and wildly inaccurate.

For example the gay area of Phuket in Patong, attracts gay guys from all over the south who want to live in or have proximity to a "gay community". Granted some end up as prostitutes, some end up as working in commercial sex venues, bars and clubs and katoey shows but are not primarily looking to sell their arses. I can think of several thai guys who moved there, and worked as waiters or whatever, because they reckoned their chances of getting a thai boyfriend there, of equal status, was better than in the boondocks.They had no interest in farangs at all.

It has always been the case worldwide that many gay men gravitate to the capitals or larger urban areas, for social rather than commercial reasons, and where they have a better chance of finding a compatible mate.

[cdnmatt]

Most gay Thais are not interested in farangs. They flock to Bangkok for the gay scene and yet never go anywhere near farang areas like Silom. You don't see them because they have no interest in hanging around farangs.

Wannt bet? :-)

Granted, they're not interested in 65yo, 230lbs stubborn alcoholics, but to say most aren't interested in farangs is a bit crass. If you're a good looking guy, good income, polite, respectable, etc... you can garner a good amount of interest from decent Thais with no problem.

The reason they don't goto gay areas like Silom has nothing to do with some dislike of farangs, but simply because they don't feel like hanging out around a bunch of prostitutes, and getting treated like a piece of meat that can be bought for 1000 baht short time. Can't really blame them. If you were some good looking 20-something gay guy, hard working with a decent income, would you go hang out in San Francisco around all the hookers? Probably not.

[Brisboy82]

Most gay Thais are not interested in farangs. They flock to Bangkok for the gay scene and yet never go anywhere near farang areas like Silom. You don't see them because they have no interest in hanging around farangs.

Wannt bet? :-)

Granted, they're not interested in 65yo, 230lbs stubborn alcoholics, but to say most aren't interested in farangs is a bit crass. If you're a good looking guy, good income, polite, respectable, etc... you can garner a good amount of interest from decent Thais with no problem.

The reason they don't goto gay areas like Silom has nothing to do with some dislike of farangs, but simply because they don't feel like hanging out around a bunch of prostitutes, and getting treated like a piece of meat that can be bought for 1000 baht short time. Can't really blame them. If you were some good looking 20-something gay guy, hard working with a decent income, would you go hang out in San Francisco around all the hookers? Probably not.
I'm still in my twenties and I am reasonably fit and I never have any shortage of hot respectable non moneyboy Thai guys to choose from. But I still believe that there is a much larger scene of Thais
Who are only interested in other Thais.

Brisboy82,

I was in my mid twenties when I first went to Thailand. At that time I was in a relationship with an very trendy hairdresser named Stuart.

He was smart, classily dressed, own car, I helped him establish his own salon, ( still flying high with it) He is an English guy. He is into English/European men. He likes big guys. Men that behave like men.

He has had his jaunts to Spain where he has met up with other English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh whatever guys. He wants white and Western.

He has no interest at all in Thais/Japanses/Chinese and the very thought of having sex with them or interacting with them would be appalling to him.

He HATED Thailand and couldn't wait to get back to Leeds where all his clubs,friends, shops, culture etc was.

Sure there are plenty of Thais not interested in Foreigners and likewise plenty of Foreigners not bloody interested in Asians!!

Why can't many be honest here, White guys coming to Thailand for the last 40 years have been usually older looking for young Thai girls and guys a lot younger and prettier/handsome than themselves to get their ' rocks off ' and as we all have said, it's a trade off by and large, not the odd exceptions, money handed over=sex with a young pretty thing, as long as it lasts!

When I was in my twenties I was in Singapore and was approached many times by Singaporeans asking me for various sexual encounters without money being even thought of or expected.

[Dodger]

kquill wrote:


Why can't many be honest here, White guys coming to Thailand for the last 40 years have been usually older looking for young Thai girls and guys a lot younger and prettier/handsome than themselves to get their ' rocks off ' and as we all have said, it's a trade off by and large, not the odd exceptions, money handed over=sex with a young pretty thing, as long as it lasts!

That pretty much sums it up.

[bkkguy]

That goes for anywhere. In Australia we have twink bars, bear bars, mixed bars, rice queen bars. They tend not to mix much.

yes, sure, in Sydney there are a range of bars and there may not be much cross-mixing at that level, but beyond the Oxford Street and Newtown "scene" there are other signs of a broarder "gay community" - there are 3 freebie "gay" newspapers that cover a broad cross-section of events and news relevant to the "gay community" (rather then just venue listings and travel hints like the freebie magazines here), there are a number of commercial magazines that target the "gay community", the events in the month leading up to the Mardi Gras parade are "gay community" oriented, there are "gay" film festivals, the major political parties have "gay" sub-groups and there are some very strong activist groups focused on gay marrage etc - this is I think what "community" is made of in the sense meant in the original post

so is there a similar "gay community" in Thailand? you see some aspects of this in Bangkok - magazines like Attitude, film events organised by the local gay groups, political activism, "pride" events that are not dominated/organised by the commercial sex venues and the falung-owned bars, etc but a lot of this is not accessible or even visible to falung with no serious Thai friends or Thai language skills

there are also a number of social and cultural differences that may explain why there is not such a strong "gay community" developing here!

He wants white and Western. He has no interest at all in Thais/Japanses/Chinese and the very thought of having sex with them or interacting with them would be appalling to him.


I'm the same way. I just force myself when I'm in Thailand! :rolling:

[cdnmatt]

so is there a similar "gay community" in Thailand?

No, at least not in the way you're thinking, because by and large, the entire concept of having a "gay community" goes against Thai society and culture. Being gay isn't considered a minority here (is any group?), so organizing a community around it wouldn't make any sense. It'd be like showing up in Bangkok, and asking around where the breeder community is. People wouldn't know what you're talking about.

Granted, gay people generally mostly have gay friends and everything (I don't think Kim has a single straight friend, actually), but there's no reason for them to organize as a "gay community" and have pride parades and shit. Being gay simply doesn't matter, and there's gay people pretty much everywhere, so it's all a moot point in Thailand.

[Beachlover]

Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Phuket just happen to be the largest tourist attractions in the Kingdom and many boys (and girls) migrate to these meccas to earn money from the tourist trade in general...
I agree. But that's completely different from what you originally said, which others perceived the same way I did.

You can go back and say "I didn't mean that" or "it was inadvertent" but there's no point denying what you said. It was pretty clear cut so I don't know why you're going round in circles denying it.


I also was quite taken aback by Dodger's original comments, which seemed to make a judgment about all Thai gay guys who relocate to enjoy urban gay scenes as being driven by commercial reasons, with the implicit meaning that they must therefore be going to prostitute themselves. The comment seemed both out of character for the writer, and wildly inaccurate.
I agree... inaccurate and out of character.


prostitution is much more accepted in asian cultures in general - and it's fairly common for those with little means to sell it - and those with ample means to buy it, with very lttle stigma attached.
I disagree with the "very little stigma attached" statement.

It's NOT "fairly common" for this to occur with "very little stigma attached" within "Asian cultures in general". I agree there's probably less stigma than we're used to in the West and there may be "very little stigma attached" in SOME places, but it's not the norm, nor is it "fairly common" I know this is subjectively debatable (unlike your previous wrong point) so won't go back and fourth on it.


I'm only saying this because you either inadvertently, or intentionally, attempt to downgrade Thai prostitutes"
I articulated my thoughts on prostitution a while back: gay-thailand-f9/sex-and-relationships-with-prostitutes-t20569.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand-f9/sex-and-relationships-with-prostitutes-t20569.html)

I think sex is naturally a personal thing. When people offer sex for cash, they're giving up a certain degree of their personal integrity and worth. So yes, like it or not, I see this as a negative thing.

When a prostitute lies to a customer that they're handsome, pretends to like him and tries to convince him of all this when his feelings are the opposite, he's compromising his integrity. Like it or not, I think what they do does degrade them as a person to some extent. Doesn't make them entirely worthless or anything like that. It's just one part of who they are. That's looking at it objectively...

Hi,

Well I have no problem with the uncomplicated way that prostitution works at all.


SHALLOW!!, That's what I am!........... :laughing3:

[Beachlover]

this is I think what "community" is made of in the sense meant in the original post

so is there a similar "gay community" in Thailand? you see some aspects of this in Bangkok - magazines like Attitude, film events organised by the local gay groups, political activism, "pride" events that are not dominated/organised by the commercial sex venues and the falung-owned bars, etc but a lot of this is not accessible or even visible to falung with no serious Thai friends or Thai language skills

there are also a number of social and cultural differences that may explain why there is not such a strong "gay community" developing here!
I agree... No one's really properly defined what a community is. I don't think it's a question of whether there's a community. It's to what extent is the community active, identifiable and cohesive.


the entire concept of having a "gay community" goes against Thai society and culture. Being gay isn't considered a minority here (is any group?), so organizing a community around it wouldn't make any sense. It'd be like showing up in Bangkok, and asking around where the breeder community is. People wouldn't know what you're talking about.
I agree that being gay is more of a moot point (though not completely) than it is in Western countries but you're going a bit far saying it's not a "minority" and it "goes against Thai society and culture".


Granted, gay people generally mostly have gay friends and everything (I don't think Kim has a single straight friend, actually)...
1. Isn't that what a community is? A community doesn't have to be "organised".

2. I believe there's some organised elements of the gay community (outside the farang commercial sex scene) such as what bkkguy spoke about. There's also been some gay pride parades (not organised by gogo bars etc.) such as the one that was halted in Chiang Mai.

[gra46]

Most gay Thais are not interested in farangs. They flock to Bangkok for the gay scene and yet never go anywhere near farang areas like Silom. You don't see them because they have no interest in hanging around farangs.

Wannt bet? :-)

Granted, they're not interested in 65yo, 230lbs stubborn alcoholics, but to say most aren't interested in farangs is a bit crass. If you're a good looking guy, good income, polite, respectable, etc... you can garner a good amount of interest from decent Thais with no problem.

The reason they don't goto gay areas like Silom has nothing to do with some dislike of farangs, but simply because they don't feel like hanging out around a bunch of prostitutes, and getting treated like a piece of meat that can be bought for 1000 baht short time. Can't really blame them. If you were some good looking 20-something gay guy, hard working with a decent income, would you go hang out in San Francisco around all the hookers? Probably not.


Well said ,I have a Thai friend in BKK he hates Silom for exactly what you have stated,he will go there with me for company ,
This one night he said he wants to show me the other side of the thai gays
I agreed and got into a taxi and about 30 mins from silom we went in to this disco ,many thai gays but i was the only westerner in there .
The thais made me feel so welcome ,I spoke to a few and they all said Silom is not for them it for westerners to find a gogo boy .
On the same night I seen a boy whose name i wont mention ,came over to me he said please do not tell the guys here where i have seen him before (Soi Twilight).
I asked him why he goes to Silom then .The answer i got i already knew .(money)
I spent about 4 hours at this disco and really enjoyed just watching these guys have a great time not being stared or hit on by westerners ,on leaving i was approached by many asking me will i return .I said yes i will and my thai friend said if i like these types of places on my next trip he will show me another ,so i my return we went to another ,went there about 10pm and didnt leave till 4 am .I did see 2 other westerners there with i would say there boyfriend ,once again i met some nice guys that would never go to Silom .These boys are interested in westerners but would never date one that comes to thailand for just sex .
I will be back in Thailand in 2 weeks im going to Chiang Mai for a week with my Thai friend ,also to Bangkok i will be going to Silom as i do like the eye candy there but i will sure be going back to these discos as i made a few friends there.I am in my 40's and fitted in well in theses places as the guys there ranged from 18 to 50 .What im trying to say is if your looking for sex here you be looking for trouble .Dont ge get me wrong i was hit on by a few but very disgretly.

Hi,

I find it amusing that once a poster seems to have acquired a ' Thai friend ' who is prepared to take them off the beaten track to a largely ' Thai disco environment' or to areas not known or frequented by Foreigners they always feel the urge to defend the Thais ' rights ' such as the above poster.

Usually when challenged where they met their ' Thai friend ' they change the issue and refuse to admit it was in a commercial area. If they hadn't met in a commercial area, it is unlikey they would have had a Thai friend to show them the none commercial ones!!

Again, I read on here many times how nice it was to see Thais enjoying themselves in their own space without Foreigners ' groping or grabbing them ' or, perish the thought, ' staring ' at them as though we all don't know how to behave in public.

Well I do!, and also I am not a person who goes crashing in on a scene that I don't know behaving like a bloody Viking grabbing every guys penis on the dance floor. Also, many Thais go to these places to meet boyfriends/girlfriends out of sight of their own Foreigner and to pick up. Many even visit these places after earning money on the commercial circuit!

The Thais don't need these Foreign defenders of Thai rights and culture, they manage quite well on their own and there is enough anti -foreigner sentiment in the Country already without foreigners, who have been in the Country 10 minutes encouraging it.

There are good and bad foreigners. Many of the good ones live a long way outside of Pattaya 1,2, and 3 and Sunnee Plaza or Soi twilight and Patpong.

[gra46]

Hi,

I find it amusing that once a poster seems to have acquired a ' Thai friend ' who is prepared to take them off the beaten track to a largely ' Thai disco environment' or to areas not known or frequented by Foreigners they always feel the urge to defend the Thais ' rights ' such as the above poster.

Usually when challenged where they met their ' Thai friend ' they change the issue and refuse to admit it was in a commercial area. If they hadn't met in a commercial area, it is unlikey they would have had a Thai friend to show them the none commercial ones!!

Again, I read on here many times how nice it was not see Thais enjoying themselves in their own space without Foreigners ' groping or grabbing them ' as though we all don't know how to behave in public. Well I do!, and also I am not a person who goes crashing in on a scene that I don't know behaving like a bloody Viking grabbing every guys penis on the dance floor.

The Thais don't need these Foreign defenders of Thai rights and culture, they manage quite well on their own and there is enough anti -foreigner sentiment in the Country already without foreigners, who have been in the Country 10 minutes encouraging it.

There are good and bad foreigners. Many of the good ones live a long way outside of Pattaya 1,2, and 3 and Sunnee Plaza or Soi twilight and Patpong.

Hi
How am I defending Thai's rights?
Im glad you said "usually" when challenged,so are you challenging me where i met this guy?
I travel to thailand 4 times a year so i do see good and bad in both Thais and Foreigners.
So do you go to places you know "behaving like a bloody Viking grabbing every guys penis on the dance floor".

Hi,

You know very well what I meant in the post.

Attempting to twist my words or what I said will have little or no effect on what you said previously. I also have a few more manners and a lot more style than to go misbehaving in places that I am known or not known.

[Brisboy82]

Ha ha ha behaving like a Viking. Excellent way of describing such things.

[gra46]

Hi,

You know very well what I meant in the post.

Attempting to twist my words or what I said will have little or no effect on what you said previously. I also have a few more manners and a lot more style than to go misbehaving in places that I am known or not known.
I have not twisted your words just quoted what you stated.
now i will defend my Thai friend .I happen to meet him about a year ago, in a restaurant just outside of Silom where he worked .I was the one who introduced him to places like Soi Twilight and so on.
His belief was this is the only places i knew so he introduced me to the other side of thai gay life.
i have been to places like this before ,for example Mandalay in Chiang Mai ,where thai meet there friends .Also mandalay is well known to the westerners but you will see they are on the other side of the room .

Hi,

You know very well what I meant in the post.

Attempting to twist my words or what I said will have little or no effect on what you said previously. I also have a few more manners and a lot more style than to go misbehaving in places that I am known or not known.
I have not twisted your words just quoted what you stated.
now i will defend my Thai friend .I happen to meet him about a year ago, in a restaurant just outside of Silom where he worked .I was the one who introduced him to places like Soi Twilight and so on.
His belief was this is the only places i knew so he introduced me to the other side of thai gay life.
i have been to places like this before ,for example Mandalay in Chiang Mai ,where thai meet there friends .Also mandalay is well known to the westerners but you will see they are on the other side of the room .


OK gra46,

I won't push my point any further that what I said.

My main objection, and you may not have meant it, is there are a lot of Foreigners, who once they think they have their ' feet under the table with the Thais ' feel the urge to bash other foreigners and their behaviour. I was pointing out that a GREAT many of us DO know how to behave.

There are definitely people who's behaviour leaves much to be desired and who you would be embarrassed that they come from the same Country but that is balanced out by the great many who live quietly, fund raise without fuss, help out at various organisations freely and willingly giving their time, happy to be in Asia and helping in some small way.

[Dodger]

cdmatt wrote:


Being gay isn't considered a minority here (is any group?), so organizing a community around it wouldn't make any sense. It'd be like showing up in Bangkok, and asking around where the breeder community is. People wouldn't know what you're talking about.

I agree.

This thread has run for two weeks now and no one seems to have recognized any gay communites with the exception of the hot spots in Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai and Phuket. I agree with you cdmatt, that "gay communites" - at least under our western definition, simply do not exist in Thailand.

The Thais who migrate to the hot spots (Bangkok, Pattaya, Chiang Mai, Phuket) do so to make money. Some accomplish this on the working scene (sex scene), although the majority earn their money in the hotels, restaurants, tour guide services, transportation services, internet shops, food stalls, etc., etc., which surround these gay hot spots. As I stated earlier, these are the only areas which I would refer to as "gay communities".

Many boys decide to contunue living in these gay communities regardless of the nature of work they performed for the mere fact that they prefer living among those with simliar interests and lifestyles which should not confuse anyone. Let alone the fact that the majority of these guys are young and far more attracted to the disco than they would be staring at the ass-end of a water buffalo.

Like many of you, I have visited some of the most remote regions in Thailand and there is ALWAYS as place where the gays find to hang out with each other. I wouldn't classify these as "gay communites" at all - just a place where the gays get together. Thep took me to a dwelling once which was nothing more that a bamboo shack located in the jungle not far from his village where a dozen or so gay boys hang around together at night. I guess you could call this a little gay sub-community if you wanted to, but in all reality, it's just a place to hang out. The gays in Thailand all have these places everywhere from Songkla to Chiang Rai, and if you're ever fortunate enough to be invited inside you will experience the time of your life.

[bkkguy]

by and large, the entire concept of having a "gay community" goes against Thai society and culture.

I basically agree - Thai society is based on a very rigid vertical patronage hierarchy and horizontal associations like a "gay community" do not mesh well with this



Being gay isn't considered a minority here (is any group?), so organizing a community around it wouldn't make any sense.

I disagree, I think increasingly Thai gays are starting to look for more "acceptance" and are starting to feel much more like a Western concept "minority" - even an "oppressed minority", and some even have the clout to be visible and effective in promoting change, hopefully not requiring a Stonewall to get some progress



there's no reason for them to organize as a "gay community" and have pride parades and shit. Being gay simply doesn't matter, and there's gay people pretty much everywhere, so it's all a moot point in Thailand.

perhaps we live in "parallel universe" Thailands because after 20 years of living here there is no way I could agree with that statement - but perhaps I am too hung up on Western concepts and am still not willing to accept that "gay" = "kathoey" and "tolerance" = "acceptance"!

OK there are kathoey openly employed in every bank, shop, food outlet, market, whatever here and featured (though usually for comic relief) in every second TV show and movie - but Thai culture has been obsessed with the "third sex" forever, and this is a gender issue not a sexual orientation issue

OK the Isarn village boy that goes to Pattaya and snags a falung benefactor that builds a house and supports the extended family get the same "respect" as his sister that does the same thing - but that is just crass commercialism

OK the "sensitive" unmarried uncle gets the same "don't ask, don't tell" tolerance that he gets in the West

but where in Thailand do you see a high level of acceptance of same sex couples living a life together as a couple? where are the positive role models of openly gay politicians, sports stars, musicians, business people, etc

most Thai gays that I have met through business contact, scene contacts, friend contacts, etc from a wide variety of social classes and education etc either recently or 10 or 15 years ago have been unable or unwilling to be "out" to their family, friends or business associates!

and OK there may be a plethora of gay bars, discos and commercial sex venues and they may even pay the same to the local police to operate but again that has little to do with social acceptance of gay lifestyles!

ken

Yes its true there is a very segmented gay Community I know of a wonderful gay mature farang community in pattaya, with very separate reason to be accepted or join each one, American only, mixed as mine is with quite vocal and like a good argument and many of them have strong ideas about life and The gay pattaya as we know it, there is Music circles, Bridge Circles playing Cards Circles Dinner Circles and gossip circles, so many in fact I think pattaya is the best place if you donтАЩt have any friends to find some, when youтАЩre in the autumn of your days. If you can break into them start at тАЬMONTYSтАЭ many go there from time to time and тАЬ2guys guest houseтАЭ both good for breakfast. To start with. Or on the beach I go to the beach and find IтАЩm invited to may dinners and parties from there.

Then you have Bangkok this is very difficult to break into the gay Committee there, it does have one but they seem to meet in the Malaysia Hotel or BALONY PUB or just know each other from living there and cruising around the different bars or wash rooms. Where I live in Bang kapi Bangkok, there is an amazing Thai Gay Community they even have their own Bars and only about 1/3 want to know farangs, unless no one else is looking and they are extra horny. As Kevin says many would not be seen dead in a farang orientated gay bar apart from may be the likes of G.O.D or DJ Station or NAB in pattaya, The good thing is one thing we all have in common there in they love cruising so you donтАЩt need to wait long before you meet a nice one. Many prefer to discos around Bangkok.

Chain Mai has a small gay farang Community, made up from what I see, with TEACHERS and professional Older farangs, they seem to meet in some bars or on a few nights every few months have a get together in places like тАЬHouse of MaleтАЭ but notoriously difficult to break into, as many new potential expats have found to their disillusionment, even though some have made good friends around the Night Market. but I hear within a couple of years that is going to be knocked down for apartment block to be built, so I hope they find a new home, when new Guys want to move there and try to meet likeminded friends to hang out with, they find they just canтАЩt break into the few that are there.

Puket forget it, there is a few friendly guys there who hang around the Paradise Complex there, but thatтАЩs it, unless you make friends through business or your work there, itтАЩs not easy.

As for the changing of the rout with the annual gay parade I know for Fact I wonтАЩt say how, a group called World Vision right ultra US wing religious group, had been working hard that year, to convince and hand out money to the City fathers saying in the West it was demeaning and disgusting to have children parading through town dressed as a Condom, also they told them and to have half naked gay men frolicking on trucks, acting gay would not be good for tourism to Pattaya, when it hit the World headline, this is what they would be concentrating to sell papers, they also got the council to put signs around Town to say things like, if you go with anyone under 18 youтАЩre not only be charged in Thailand, but again in your own Country, so the Council panics and changed the rout never to let gays parade again, if the Worlds press were likely to be there. Even though if they had wanted to stop that, all they needed to do is, what they have done now, which is wonderful news just keep arresting the sewer rats and then sending them home and Harris them every time they see a young guys wandering around.

[Dodger]

bkkguy wrote:


OK there are kathoey openly employed in every bank, shop, food outlet, market, whatever here and featured (though usually for comic relief) in every second TV show and movie - but Thai culture has been obsessed with the "third sex" forever, and this is a gender issue not a sexual orientation issue

I tend to agree with you, although view Thais as being more "accepting" of the third-sex rather than being "obsesed" with it.

Regarding the Thais acceptance of gays in general, this is a difficult attribute to measure - as they place a much higher focus on not being offensive or confrontational than us vikings from the West (love that term Kevin)...and always conceal their true emotions behind that infamous THAI SMILE... :sunny:

As far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't openly express any discrimination towards me or my BF who are gay - then that works for me. It's like that old saying..."If a tree falls in the forest and there's no one around to hear it - does it make a sound?".

The reason I agree with cdmatt's read on this is because in the West (at least in the U.S.) gay communites were cultivated out of pure necessity. That necessity being spawned from society's wide-spread discrimination agains gays. Fortunately, those times are changing. We went from a time when gays were constantly being abused and sometimes killed - to a time where it's almost fashionable to be "gay" and the wedding bells are beginning to chime. Because of these positive changes I would imagine that the "Gay Communties" as we know them in the West today will become more transparent and integrated - which is exactly what I see today in Thailand. If a person can not accept "gay", than that's OK, because face-it, guys going with guys is not the norm on the planet we rotate on, but as long as they keep their feelings neatly tucked away behind those wonderful smiles...all's well.

[bkkguy]

Like many of you, I have visited some of the most remote regions in Thailand and there is ALWAYS as place where the gays find to hang out with each other. I wouldn't classify these as "gay communites" at all - just a place where the gays get together. Thep took me to a dwelling once which was nothing more that a bamboo shack located in the jungle not far from his village where a dozen or so gay boys hang around together at night. I guess you could call this a little gay sub-community if you wanted to, but in all reality, it's just a place to hang out. The gays in Thailand all have these places everywhere from Songkla to Chiang Rai, and if you're ever fortunate enough to be invited inside you will experience the time of your life.

and why do the gay village guys need to hang out in a bamboo shack located in the jungle? do the village straight guys have a similar bamboo shack somewhere in the jungle - or are they, as more acceptable citizens, allowed to hang out at venues in the village or nearest town?

the gays in New York had these little ghettos as well till the Stonewall riots!

bkkguy

[bkkguy]

Regarding the Thais acceptance of gays in general, this is a difficult attribute to measure - as they place a much higher focus on not being offensive or confrontational than us vikings from the West (love that term Kevin)...and always conceal their true emotions behind that infamous THAI SMILE...

which is my point exactly - tolerance rather than acceptance, and even some of the locals are starting to think this is not enough!



As far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't openly express any discrimination towards me or my BF who are gay - then that works for me.

well yes, compared to being "queer bashed" every time you go out tolerance is quite a good option, particularly if you don't speak Thai and get some of the comments as you pass by - though your Thai speaking boyfriend may have a slightly diferent impression!



If a person can not accept "gay", than that's OK, because face-it, guys going with guys is not the norm on the planet we rotate on, but as long as they keep their feelings neatly tucked away behind those wonderful smiles...all's well.

am I the only one that considers this to be one of the most depressing (but I suppose realistic) quotes ever expressed on this forum?

bkkguy

[Dodger]

bkkguy wrote:


and why do the gay village guys need to hang out in a bamboo shack located in the jungle? do the village straight guys have a similar bamboo shack somewhere in the jungle - or are they, as more acceptable citizens, allowed to hang out at venues in the village or nearest town?

Honestly, I think the guys I referred to who hang around that bamboo shack do so because "it's fun". No different than their str8 friends who hang out with their farmer buddies at night sitting around a bottle of whiskey - or the businessman who socializes at the snooker club or gulf course with his friends.

People have always gravitated towards others with commoin interests and lifestyles, regardless if they're sports fans, meat-head truck drivers or Shakespearian play actors. What's the difference?

[Beachlover]

Being gay simply doesn't matter, and there's gay people pretty much everywhere, so it's all a moot point in Thailand.

perhaps we live in "parallel universe" Thailands because after 20 years of living here there is no way I could agree with that statement...

but where in Thailand do you see a high level of acceptance of same sex couples living a life together as a couple? where are the positive role models of openly gay politicians, sports stars, musicians, business people, etc

most Thai gays that I have met through business contact, scene contacts, friend contacts, etc from a wide variety of social classes and education etc either recently or 10 or 15 years ago have been unable or unwilling to be "out" to their family, friends or business associates!
I agree with Bkkguy on this and that's been my experience too.

Yes, gays tend to be more visible in Bangkok. Yes, in general, I find the gay thing gets less attention in Thailand than it does anywhere else I've been. Yes, it's wonderful having that experience where being gay is a moot point. But no, there's still plenty of homophobia and ignorance in Thailand and plenty of instances where being gay isn't a moot point.

I know Matt's spent more time in Thailand than I have but I suspect he's applying his experience in Isaan (which may be more laid back and accepting of being gay) and Pattaya to the whole country, which is inaccurate.

[Beachlover]

In terms of Silom, you need to distinguish between the different scenes here. Not all of Silom is dominated by the commercial sex scene.

The way I see it, the three main parts of Silom are...

(1) Soi Twilight and other gogo bars - This is pretty much a 100% commercial sex scene. No reason for a Thai to come here unless they're a customer or prostitute or taking tourists to see the show.

(2) Soi 4 with Balcony and Telephone - Haven't spent much time here so can't comment.

(3) Soi 2 DJ Station and GOD - Yes, there's a significant moneyboy presence at these two discos but it doesn't dominate.

Lots of ordinary Thais and (and foreigners not after paid sex) go to DJ Station. I've met all kinds of Thais - some from out of town holidaying in Bangkok, students, older middle-class Thais - who were just having a night out with their friends. I ask guys I meet if they come to DJ Station often and they often say it's an occasional thing for them - once a month or once or twice a year.


my Thai friend .I happen to meet him about a year ago, in a restaurant just outside of Silom where he worked .I was the one who introduced him to places like Soi Twilight...
You introduced a Thai friend to Soi Twilight? How classy of you... :rolling:


I am not a person who goes crashing in on a scene that I don't know behaving like a bloody Viking grabbing every guys penis on the dance floor.
Good to know that, Quill. :rolling: