One main reason I love living in Thailand...

[cdnmatt]

... is I don't think I've ever experienced a better environment to live as a gay guy in.

I don't get out on my own much. I mean, I get out lots, but it's usually with Kim and other Thais. I rarely have contact with other farangs these days though, and from those I've met in town, I can't say I'm too sad about it. Anyway, tonight I was on my own in (failed) hopes of finding ingredients for a nice Italian pasta I was hoping to cook. Ended up at one of the typical farang bars in town for what turned into a few glasses of wine.

Now... you tell a Thai you're gay, and their response will generally be, "oh, ok", and that's literally it. The conversation continues, and they don't treat you a single bit differently than 10 seconds prior to you telling them.

Now, tell a white guy in Thailand you're gay (and farangs in Thailand are generally pretty open-minded and liberal compared to our home countries), and you get a response like, "Ohhh, really? Ohhh, no worries, I don't mind at all that you're gay. As long as two people love each other, who am I to say, right? You seem like a really good guy, and you know, I have several friends that are gay, and they're great people too! Seriously, it's no problem at all, and I'm glad you found someone. That's great to hear!" ... and blah, blah, blah...

You have to listen to them droan on about this shit for about 10 minutes, when it's pretty obvious they do care, because otherwise they'd shut up about it. Even had one guy with a major muscular disorder or something do that (hands and legs were all gimped up). After a while I finally said, "dude, do you want to sit here and listen to me for the next 10 minutes explain that I don't give a shit that you're physically disabled?", to which he replies, "Ohhh, yeah... I see what you did there. Good point".

Gotta say, I much prefer living in a society where the standard response to telling someone you're gay is, "oh, ok", and that's it. I think I've totally forgotten what it's like to be a gay man in the West, and tonight brought that back somewhat. In the West you have to somewhat pick & choose your social circle carefully, whereas in Thailand it's simply a non-issue.

Not sure why I'm posting this, but I'll blame the red wine... :-)

I think you summed it up very well Matt. Too many farangs have sexual hang-ups, and it doesn't seem to matter where they live they still can't shake them off.

[Brisboy82]

All so true

[Dodger]

CDMatt...

I'm not quite sure what your expectations were when you announced the fact that you were gay to a stranger at a bar - or even why this disclosure would come up in a casual conversation at a bar, but nevertheless it did. It appears as if it was you were the one who initiated this topic - and the person you were talking to simply responded the best he could.

In the same scenerios, if a cripped man came up to me in a bar and and said "hey, I'm crippled" I think I would have fumbled in my response as well.

[cdnmatt]

I'm not quite sure what your expectations were when you announced the fact that you were gay to a stranger at a bar - or even why this disclosure would come up in a casual conversation at a bar, but nevertheless it did. It appears as if it was you were the one who initiated this topic - and the person you were talking to simply responded the best he could.

Not at all. It's simply people naturally ask if I have a Thai girlfriend, to which I always reply, "ahhh, boyfriend, actually". I reply the same, whether it's to a Thai or farang. I just get two completely different responses. Don't worry, I'm not one of those "proud to be gay" guys, but if someone asks, I'm not going to lie about it. Even told Kim and my next door neighbor about this. They just laughed, and you could tell they were thinking, "man, farangs are stupid".

[bao-bao]

Dodger has a point there: the obvious doesn't have the surprise factor that can throw some people off.

Reminds me of something that went around back in college during those squeamish "coming out" days:

Q: Is it easier being born gay or being born black?
A: Black, because you don't have to tell your parents.

[Dodger]

cdmatt wrote:


It's simply people naturally ask if I have a Thai girlfriend, to which I always reply, "ahhh, boyfriend, actually". I reply the same, whether it's to a Thai or farang.

I usually do the same myself, unless I'm back here in the U.S. where I usually resort to lieing...555 - which of course emphasizes the point you were making about the difference about these two cultures...or at least the way I react myself within these two cultures.

Also, an advantage that I see you having is your age. People will react different when they see two young gays together (like you and your bf) versus a farang in is fifties (me) with his Thai bf who's in his twenties, and rightly so I guess. I don't see that as an indication of homophobia - just a natural human reaction.

On the other hand, when the Thais at the prison where I visit Thep learned that I was married to a "Puchi" and not a "Puying" it didn't appear to make any difference to them.

[chillnorth]

I've found Matt's description of the "uh, ok" response here to be accurate.

I also recognize Dodger's comment about lying about it back in the States. That was my default for years. Trouble is, I've spent too long here to slip back into it now. The crack was in my closet door before this country found me, but one part I do take back with me on the obligatory returns is that when you're out you're out. I'm not going to advertise any more than I expect my utterly hetero friends to push that in my face, but I can't lie any more. Life is way too short. In my case, at least, living in Thailand gets a lot of credit for that.

... You have to listen to them droan on about this shit for about 10 minutes, when it's pretty obvious they do care, because otherwise they'd shut up about it. Even had one guy with a major muscular disorder or something do that (hands and legs were all gimped up). After a while I finally said, "dude, do you want to sit here and listen to me for the next 10 minutes explain that I don't give a shit that you're physically disabled?", to which he replies, "Ohhh, yeah... I see what you did there. Good point".


Are you suggesting that being gay is a disability?
Reading some of the garbage that is written on this forum, I would have said that IF it is a disability then it is a mental disorder rather than a physical disability.

[cdnmatt]

Are you suggesting that being gay is a disability?
Reading some of the garbage that is written on this forum, I would have said that IF it is a disability then it is a mental disorder rather than a physical disability.

You didn't read the post very well, did you?

I was pointing out the similarity between him constantly saying he has no problem with me being gay (while constantly pointing out that I'm gay), and me doing the same to him regarding being physically disabled. I doubt he would have appreciated it much if I constantly pointed out he was physically disabled for 10 mins, while saying I have no issues with it.

Same shit, different pile kinda thing. Neither matter.

[bao-bao]

Got your point, Matt. Being gay is not a disability, but differences can be unsettling for some. What we don't know we don't understand. What we don't understand we tend to fear, and what we fear we usually dislike because that's easier than trying to understand.

My opinion is that it's the person's own comfort level with faced with something "different" that fuels the nervous "some of my best friends are..." reaction. Sometimes I've felt as though they were trying to over-compensate in an effort to be polite, too, and sometimes it's a flat-out ruse to blanket their distaste.

[latintopxxx]

Thai's are just as biased against gays as any other society in the world, you cannot judge Thai norms on the go go boy scene; this is not real. I have a colleague who was seconded to our Thai facility for 9 months and was openly gay, bordering on screaming hand flapping diva queen deluxe....and he was com-pletely frozen out of the work social scene, straight Thai's with normal jobs, especially the university educated ones with well paying jobs (read тВм2500/month and up) are very particular about who they socialise with; absolute kiss of death if you drag a low class provincial boy as your partner to a social event, your Thai colleagues will somersault over speeding trucks to cross the street so as to avoid running into you...and your sex toy!

[Dodger]

...bordering on screaming hand flapping diva queen deluxe

I've always felt that gays who act like this have a screw loose....and If I was a Thai employer I wouldn't hire him either...and I'm as non-homophobic as they come.

[netrix]

тВм2,500 = $3,607.05 USD
who makes that kind of money in thailand? i have quite a few bkk wannabe hi-so friends
who are university grads, and most make less than 15,000 baht/month.

Our last show and bar manager made 25,000 a month and the current manger/dj makes 17,000 a month so there are good paying jobs still to be had but certainly not easy to find here. Our assistant make 8,000 a month.
I guess I am lucky living in Pattaya as nobody gives a hoot whether you are walking down the street with your young boyfriend or girlfiend and nobody blinks an eye if you even bring it up. I of course dont know why that would be a topic of discussion though and I would just answer it saying I was single. Period and I wouldnt go any further. No need.
The only nasty looks I ever got in Thailand were from USA falang from an aircraft carrier, and I got shrewed looks from many German tourists at a ritzy resort down in Hui Hin. I simply tip better and of course everywhere we went we recieved 1st class service from everyone and falang saw it and realized they better stay away and not say anything. Same goes for BKK when I stay in the Shangri-la Hotel and the boys are with me. Security is told not to ask me questions about who I bring in or can I hold or see thier ID card. Nothing. They join me at the buffet, some people again look but when they see everyone saying "Welcome back.......name) they back off and shut up. When we go to the pool we see some other gay couples who seem to also be very comfortable. One time I asked if it bothered them and they replied, NO you are our guest and therefore he is our guest. why should we care? Anytime I am alone (laughing) they always ask me where my son is!! love that place. If you want a beautiful place to relax and be spoiled and you are not travelling super economy... try it.
Otherwise back to the subject.....
If you get wierd looks or they dont like you maybe you can reloacte to a place where you feel more comfortable. Only a suggestion.
:tif:

[bao-bao]

тВм2,500 = $3,607.05 USD
who makes that kind of money in thailand? I have quite a few bkk wannabe hi-so friends
who are university grads, and most make less than 15,000 baht/month.
That's been my experience, too. I don't talk compensation with too many people there, but from what I'm told Bt 15K per month isn't bad money.

I know a network administrator at a university who's making Bt 11,500 per month, and while one member spoke of a far shorter work hours those tech jobs can be long days in the real world.

тВм2,500 = $3,607.05 USD
who makes that kind of money in thailand? i have quite a few bkk wannabe hi-so friends
who are university grads, and most make less than 15,000 baht/month.

Agreed, most Graduates with only a Bsc going into their first job with a Thai company would be lucky (extremely) to crack 10,000 THB a month.

What can I say? As namarakiac would say (not me) the Pimp pays his whores very good money! I am surprised his slaves are paid so well!
:sign5:

:tif:

[cameroncat]

As everyone is saying, a degree from a Thai University is certainly no guarantee to make good money. My ex has been working several years for a large Japanese owned travel agency, and even though he is a "Manager", he only makes 15,000 baht a month. That's about half what you get a month on Unemployment in the US. :rolling:

[latintopxxx]

whilst тВм2500/month may sound implausible please explain who lives in and or owns the hundreds of thousands of terribly over prices condos in Bangkok, Pattaya,etc... can"t all be retired German/Dutch postal workers on their тВм1800/month pensions!!
As an auditor I have extensive contact with multiple multinations in Thailand, Thais with proven western standard management qualifications in fields such as QA, supply chain, operations and general managemnt command a premium; mainly because they are difficult to find and very picky about who they work for.
Very cost effective to hire a Thai, speaks the local language, no driver needed, no ridiculous expat package.
Thailand is not all about gogo bars and tacky mass tourism!!!!

[pong]

most-many of those condo's are not inhabited and simply kept (mostly owned by banks-on loan or martgage) as money wise investments by Chiense-rooted families.
Neither of those postal workers-nor Belgian or Swedish, get an 1800тВм/month pension-the usual pension for those-ONLY if having worked the required full 40 years and as normal letterbringer etc. or clerk in the now defunct postoffices (99% of those have been closed by now)-get about 12/1300тВм/month-plus some other benefits that anyone from 65 would get. Those who have held higher jobs-chiefs of the PO f.e. would reach it.

[thonglor55]

Now... you tell a Thai you're gay, and their response will generally be, "oh, ok", and that's literally it. The conversation continues, and they don't treat you a single bit differently than 10 seconds prior to you telling them.

Now, tell a white guy in Thailand you're gay (and farangs in Thailand are generally pretty open-minded and liberal compared to our home countries), and you get a response like, "Ohhh, really? Ohhh, no worries, I don't mind at all that you're gay. As long as two people love each other, who am I to say, right? You seem like a really good guy, and you know, I have several friends that are gay, and they're great people too! Seriously, it's no problem at all, and I'm glad you found someone. That's great to hear!" ... and blah, blah, blah...
And you tell people you're gay because ... ? They ask you? Just because someone asks you a question that doesn't entitle them to an answer. As for the difference between the Thai response and the Western response, it's purely cultural. The Thais won't comment one way or the other because it's not polite and could cause confrontation - the biggest social no-no in Thailand. The Westerners do comment because they need to demonstrate that they're "open minded"; to imply otherwise would equally be a social no-no. However they're both thinking "Poor bastard - no children".

[Beachlover]

Gotta say, I much prefer living in a society where the standard response to telling someone you're gay is, "oh, ok", and that's it. I think I've totally forgotten what it's like to be a gay man in the West, and tonight brought that back somewhat. In the West you have to somewhat pick & choose your social circle carefully, whereas in Thailand it's simply a non-issue.
Totally agree... We're gradually getting there in the West. I've found in big-city Australia you can be in one room where no one gives a shit, and then in next room people might not have had much contact with openly gay people are a little unsure how to react (even if they might be open minded and ok with it).

In Thailand, I think Isaan is probably the least homophobic of all the segments of the Thai population, . You'll still get a lot of Thais who are uncomfortable or not as accepting of homosexuality in the middle class.


I simply tip better and of course everywhere we went we recieved 1st class service from everyone and falang saw it and realized they better stay away and not say anything. Same goes for BKK when I stay in the Shangri-la Hotel and the boys are with me. Security is told not to ask me questions about who I bring in or can I hold or see thier ID card. Nothing. They join me at the buffet, some people again look but when they see everyone saying "Welcome back.......name) they back off and shut up. When we go to the pool we see some other gay couples who seem to also be very comfortable. One time I asked if it bothered them and they replied, NO you are our guest and therefore he is our guest. why should we care? Anytime I am alone (laughing) they always ask me where my son is!! love that place...
Heh... nicely done.

[Beachlover]

As everyone is saying, a degree from a Thai University is certainly no guarantee to make good money. My ex has been working several years for a large Japanese owned travel agency, and even though he is a "Manager", he only makes 15,000 baht a month. That's about half what you get a month on Unemployment in the US. :rolling:
Totally true but isn't that the case with university degrees everywhere?

You've no idea how many grads I see in Australia earning shit all after graduating because they didn't think things through. I have a mate who graduated three years ago and is still working in retail because there's NO demand for grads in his field of study. What a ridiculous waste.

People often choose their course having NO idea what role or career path they want to pursue or how the f*** that course is going to prepare them for it.

Sometimes when I chat to Thai students in Bangkok and ask what they're studying they come back with something like "political science" and I wonder, what the f*** are they going to do with that?

These people are already poor. They're investing precious time and money into getting a degree to improve their earning capacity and YET haven't bothered to think through WHAT they want to earn and HOW the course they select will get them there. Sometimes they graduate and have no idea where or how to get a job and no understanding of the employee/employer marketplace.


whilst тВм2500/month may sound implausible please explain who lives in and or owns the hundreds of thousands of terribly over prices condos in Bangkok, Pattaya,etc... can"t all be retired German/Dutch postal workers on their тВм1800/month pensions!!
As an auditor I have extensive contact with multiple multinations in Thailand, Thais with proven western standard management qualifications in fields such as QA, supply chain, operations and general managemnt command a premium; mainly because they are difficult to find and very picky about who they work for.
Very cost effective to hire a Thai, speaks the local language, no driver needed, no ridiculous expat package.
Thailand is not all about gogo bars and tacky mass tourism!!!!
Latintopxxx is right about this.

There's a big difference between Thais who graduate out of bottom of the pile universities with weak qualifications in areas with oversupply of grads and those who graduate out of top universities in high-earning, high demand fields.

The Thais you see earning 8,000 baht/month after spending 3-4 years on a degree either aren't very bright, don't know how to position themselves in the market or didn't plan ahead and make good decisions.

Another example that recently comes to mind is a Thai who gained both his Masters plus his Doctorate at a European University. he nows works as a lecturer for one of the more famous Uni's in Bangkok for a salary of around 25,000 THB.

[latintopxxx]

Not sure if I explained myself, the figure of тВм2500.00/month is not hypothetical, I work for a multi-national and we have offices & production facilities in China, Thailand, Malaysia and Indonesia; a local employee in his mid thirties with a good degree and proven western level managemnt skills can and does command this salary level. Still far cheaper than having an expat, I was based in China for 3 years and had I been married with children they would have been automatically entitled to free schooling in an international school and yearly flights back home, that cost alone would exceed тВм2500.00/month.
Not all Thais are employed as gogo boy sex toys... although judging by some of the ridiculous tips being paid (I have only VERY occasionally tipped more than a 1000) it doesn't seem like a bad profession...

[netrix]

you're talking about 100,000+ baht per month! that's a lot.
and just because it exists, doesn't mean the 99% who don't
land that kind of salary are lazy or stupid.

i have friends in bkk who have jobs in marketing/advertising,
photography, real estate agents, banking, DJ, university teachers,
language school teachers, web design... and nobody comes close
to 100K baht/mo.

have a look at the statistics ==> http://www.worldsalaries.org/thailand.shtml

[cdnmatt]

Yeah, 100,000 baht/month is definitely quite high, and I'm fairly certain only something foreign companies with offices in Bangkok hand out. I don't think many people who work for Thai owned & operated companies get that kind of salary.

Around here at least, I'd say your average middle class family with two incomes make about 50,000/month. Then middle class Thais seem to be as stupid as middle class Westerners. Drown themselves in debt -- couple vehicles, fancy kitchen, and whatever other toys while they pay off their monthly debts for eternity.

[bao-bao]

i have friends in bkk who have jobs in marketing/advertising,
photography, real estate agents, banking, DJ, university teachers,
language school teachers, web design... and nobody comes close
to 100K baht/mo
From what I've been told by friends in Thailand ranging from surgeon specialists to service industry maintanence folks netrix is closer to correct.

latintopxxx may well have presented a valid example, but it's not the norm.

[Beachlover]

Come on guys... put this in perspective. Middle-class incomes are as varied in Thailand as they are anywhere else.

Look at your own home countries. I know guys in their twenties earning $40k-50k/year in Australia. I also know guys in their twenties who've achieved $250k+/year salaries - that's five times more. I also know some rare freaks who've got to making 7-figure bonuses in their twenties. It's the same in the US, UK and rest of Europe.

How proportionally different is that from Thailand? You have large numbers of middle-class around the 20,000 baht/month region as NETRIX describes as well as a good number who've achieved five times that much and earn 100,000 baht/month as LATINTOPXXX describes. The gap is proportionally similar to back home.

I'm sure there's plenty of middle-class Thais comfortably earning 100,000+ baht/month (I have dated a couple of Thai boys who's families were definitely making more than that). But, as Netrix points out, the sobering reality is, the Thai middle-class does consist of masses of people tread milling along on under 20,000 baht/month. Same in Australia with plenty of people struggling on $60k/year here too.

What Thailand has, which Western countries DON'T have is an even POORER underclass who don't even make that... the rural working class of unskilled workers live on 5,000-7,000/month. Sex tourists who do nothing but hang around gogo moneyboys and service workers only have contact with this population segment and come to think all Thais are that poor, which isn't true...


Another example that recently comes to mind is a Thai who gained both his Masters plus his Doctorate at a European University. he nows works as a lecturer for one of the more famous Uni's in Bangkok for a salary of around 25,000 THB.
If he's only making $250/week and has those kind of credentials, would he be better off working in a Western country?

Don't know the guy so not saying he's sure to command a high wage (I know some PhD guys who are next to useless) but he could at least be valuable teaching...

One time, I was watching the show at Dream Boys in Bangkok and this middle-aged Thai sat next to me. Nice guy. We got to chatting. When the mamasan kept asking him if he wanted a boy he joked, "I already have boy" and pointed to me. Anyway, he asked me what I was earning in Australia and then told me he was a university lecturer and earning 30,000 baht/month at some university in Phuket... which is pretty close to your figure. I wonder if he was as qualified as your guy. He did speak excellent English.

[Jellybean]

IтАЩve found this a very interesting topic which has broadened out to encompass several other issues.

I have a house outside Bangkok and have 11 neighbours in our small soi. IтАЩve been dreading the day when someone is going to ask me about my marital status. However, to date, no one has, perhaps because someone has seen me with another guy and word has gone round that I am gay, so no need to ask the question. Would I answer truthfully if asked? IтАЩm not sure, but I donтАЩt think I would get an adverse reaction so I probably would answer truthfully. We have a nice little community of Americans, Australians, British, Russian, Finnish and Dutch, some of whom have Thai wives or partners. Maybe IтАЩm in a тАЬdonтАЩt ask, donтАЩt tell situationтАЭ? I wouldnтАЩt want anyone to feel awkward and have not felt the need to mention my sexual preferences in any conversation to date.

But looking at the matter from the other side, IтАЩve just returned from a 4 day visit to Mae Sod, in the North of Thailand, next to the Burmese border (which I believe is currently closed) and met up with a lovely, masculine, Burmese guy who works in a hotel. He is most definitely in the closet and would not allow me to book into any of the more popular hotels used by farang because he had friends working at them and didnтАЩt want to be known as gay. We couldnтАЩt find any place to rent a car and neither he nor I can ride a motorcycle so I didnтАЩt see much of Mae Sod. He was most reluctant to be seen in restaurants where any of his hotel customers or friends might see him. But in the privacy of our hotel bedroom it was like a switch had been thrown, then he was almost too gay!

I was introduced to his mother (who lives in a womanтАЩsтАЩ refuge) as his English teacher. Although I could quite understand his position in relation to his mother and her friends, whom I also met, I was beginning to get quite annoyed about all the cloak and dagger stuff elsewhere. But after giving the matter some further thought I did understand it from his perspective because I was exactly the same at his age. I did however think that we had moved on since then, but apparently not for some. Is this a cultural issue with Burmese boys, or was it just him? IтАЩm afraid I donтАЩt know the answer to that one. He has assured me that if he comes to Bangkok it will not matter because no one knows him here.

On the subject of incomes, well 51% of my neighbours in Bangkok have, of course, got to be Thai, so I guess they must be pretty well off to live here. I believe we have the chairman of one of the Thai banks living here and he has knocked three apartments into one! The car park is full of expensive motor cars, our House & Land Tax is expensive, my share for a 2 bedroom apartment is 23,000 Baht a year, our gym has a 23,000+ Baht annual membership and thatтАЩs the reduced cost for residents! The gym is a commercial one and the majority of the members are Thai so, again, they must be on a very good income to afford the membership fees. I live in a business area where I recognise many British and other International companies. I also see many Thais driving expensive cars to work in the morning and IтАЩve often thought that they must be on pretty good and well above average salaries.

When I was in employment my job, amongst other things, was to look at other peopleтАЩs incomes and I, quite naturally, took a greater interest in those of the rich and super rich. I never knew anyone in my circle of friends who came anywhere close to those sorts of incomes. Latintopxxx has mentioned that he knows for a fact that some Thais earn large salaries working for foreign companies and I have no reason to doubt that. I would also agree with Beachlover, that middle class incomes are probably as varied in Thailand as anywhere else and IтАЩm pretty sure Thailand has many very wealthy and super rich millionaires, the ones who own big business тАУ the super rich if you like. There have been occasions when IтАЩve been forced to watch/endure Thai soap operas. One of the most intriguing things for me is how many are filmed in huge, lavish, very expensive looking mansions тАУ the sort of тАЬDallasтАЭ or тАЬDynastyтАЭ type stories of the very wealthy that I recall from the past.

I found the table of average incomes provided by Netrix useful and will keep a copy for future reference. The most surprising annual salary I spotted was that of a Thai postman at 9,206 Baht per month compared, to say, a car mechanic or salesperson who were on lower salaries. I wonder if it actually related to a postal clerk whose duties are somewhat more intellectually challenging than someone who simply delivers the mail. By contrast my Burmese boy receives 7,000 Baht per month for a 7 day week and an exhausting 12 hour shift. He gives half of it to his mother to support her and his young, 16 year old, sister. His father died 12 years ago.

Oh, and finally, I think I am possibly the last person on this board to know this, but for a very long time when IтАЩve wanted to check my balance on the Happy/DTAC network IтАЩve always called *101# and received a message in Thai script. The Burmese boy told me I can dial *101*9# and receive the message in English. I put this information out in the slim chance that there is someone out there who doesnтАЩt already know this.

[Beachlover]

Interesting story about the Burmese guy, Jellybean. The Burmese guy might also have been shy about being seen with an older farang and having to explain.

I'd say that attitudes about being gay probably vary as much as incomes in Thailand too, as they do in the West. I went out with a boy originally from Isaan here in Sydney and he was fairly discrete about his sexuality with most people.


I have a house outside Bangkok and have 11 neighbours in our small soi.
Don't tell us where you live... but I'm curious, when it comes to "suburban Bangkok", which areas do you think are most desirable and why? I only ask because you must've had a look around and gotten to know the city reasonably well before selecting where you'd like to live.


There have been occasions when IтАЩve been forced to watch/endure Thai soap operas. One of the most intriguing things for me is how many are filmed in huge, lavish, very expensive looking mansions тАУ the sort of тАЬDallasтАЭ or тАЬDynastyтАЭ type stories of the very wealthy that I recall from the past.
Yeah... it's meeting the audience's desires. Thais seem to like watching TV shows depicting the type of lifestyle they dream of! Same with a lot of Asian soap operas.