Does anyone know? Gay History

What is the oldest gay bar in Thailand? What is the oldest gay sauna? I thought it would be intersting to have a little bit of history on the board. share stories amoun the oldies-- and newbies.

[Brad the Impala]

I believe that the oldest gay bar in Thailand was the Sea Hag in Silom Road. It opened and probably closed it's doors before I visited first in 1972, when I spent only a few days in Bangkok, before spending a couple of months in Pattaya, just enjoying the beach and exploring the area where there were no gay specific venues. The following year I investigated Bangkok a little further and discovered Silom Soi 4, which had the Lonely Boy, the bar next to it, Tomboy, owned by a working policeman, and the Apollo, which was wrongly thought of as only a Thai for Thai venue.

[lonelywombat]

Michael the former owner of Cockpit which was opposite the smaller version of Boyzboyzboyz in 1990 when I first visited, wrote a history of gay pattaya that has been the subject of a number of threads over the last few years.

Have not the time to do a search ATM but someone should be able to post a link. Try history in the search function.

[thonglor55]

The first few gay bars I visited in Bangkok were much later than that - Telephone (just after it started up under its original American owner, William), Rome Club, Barbeiry, Garden Bar and Harry's Bar. Garden Bar and Harry's (in Silom 2, directly opposite where DJ Station is now) were "host" bars ie. there were lots of boys milling around and sometimes dancing, in street clothes. As I drank mostly sodas when I went to a bar, I can only remember that at Garden Bar it was 90 baht for a drink in 1989, you didn't have to buy the boy a drink, you didn't have to pay an "off" and ID card worries for boys or punters were well in the future - as the Western "do gooders" made their forays. Telephone had cheaper prices (maybe? don't recall) and freelance money boys aplenty. Most of my long time Bangkok friends I met through the regular ex-pats at Telephone Bar, who all remained loyal through the transition to Richard and his various changes of business partner (and boyfriend - remember that asshole Yot?) until that other asshole Lee bought Richard and Yves out and ruined the place. I don't think most of us have ever been back.

[dab69]

would anyone have any PICS?
maps would also be great.
someone should document this, like OUT magazine-
would be a great read.

my first trip maybe I went to Rome(?) 1997
(or it's sucessor)
next door to balcony and was just thinking
about all the HISTORY of the place.

cool story about it but don't remember all the details.

so if anyone has any pics of these gone now bars
please post them up.

[pong]

get used to what those times were, dear: there were NO mobuys at all-let alone those with camera's, there was NO digital foto-any pic taken had to go to a lab for expensive and complicated ''processing development''. Any bar would have a strict policy on ''no pix taken''. there were NO computers for anyone (I just read that the very first IBM PC got on sale 20 years ago), nor any www.
The longest still existing bar is likely Hotmail (though it used to have another name-TwiLight-many call that soi still like that), I saw on my latest BKK visit (ended 1 month ago) that the Old MyWAY-along a soi off Ram IV also seemed to have closed (unless it is giant renovation from the stripped out building), telefone and perhaps GOlden Cock and Super A (changed venue a few times-but name survives) off Silom-soi 6. As has Tawan (changed building though)-all these go back to at least the late 80ies. Much as thonglor has it right.
Oldest gay sauna-hmm-that is hard-again do you mean the oldest opened ''as such'' or the longest surviving-and then under same name or only same place? I guess the old Babylon-aroud the corner from where it is now. But there must have been many more sauna's not openly (well, this is thaild) avdertising they were there to meet and greet-in fact those sauna's as such is a very un-Thai concept- what they used to have was a herbal bath-for 1 person.

[gregvc]

Volt Sauna in the mid eighties in Soi Asoke. Okoto Sauna near Niagara Hotel off Sathorn.

[DamienZ]

WE NEED MORE HISTORIANS!!!!!
MORE VETERAN'S TALES!!!!
PLEEASE...(OK..don't you make me beg!!)

:occasion4: :occasion6:

[Brad the Impala]

My birthday party at the Lonely Boy Bar, 1973 I think, (with apologies to those who have seen this photo before)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/alcibiades/My22ndBirthday.jpg

[dab69]

re: pics

particularly interested in "signage" outside the old bars
or where those signs could have ended up.
what the outside of those bars looked like

wasn't even thinking of "indoor" pics

Wouldn't it be great to scrounge the sign graveyards and come upon
the original "Sea Hag" sign for sale cheap?

nice pic Brad- thanks for sharing

Hi,

And if you say those boys in the pic are average 18, then they'll be 56 years old now, ......................scary!!!!!!! and coming soon, God, I hate this getting old and the train seems to be accelerating.

[jinks]

Circa 1995 Sky Bar - on the roof of Mr Mac's.

http://www.jinkscorp.com/hols/thai/pattaya/pre96/images/skybar2_jpg.jpg

[Marsilius]

Based on a date of circa 1995 and his appearance, I'd say that the boy in the white shirt on the right is Ya - the performer in the hot candle wax act in Sky Bar's show. Ya took me to Dan Chang to meet mama and stay the night - a truly memorable experience!

[jinks]

A bigger picture.... note the small single carriageway road.
http://www.jinkscorp.com/hols/thai/pattaya/pre96/images/skybar_jpg.jpg

[DamienZ]

Hi,

And if you say those boys in the pic are average 18, then they'll be 56 years old now, ......................scary!!!!!!! and coming soon, God, I hate this getting old and the train seems to be accelerating.

True. And from what i'm told getting to be REALLY OLD...REALLY SUCKS. (This from the REALLY OLD folks themselves) But they also say in the same breath..consider the alternatives...
:angel7:

Great photos men! Jinks, I though for a moment the chap in the white tee was you with a little color. :sign5:

[Koh Samui Luv]

True. And from what i'm told getting to be REALLY OLD...REALLY SUCKS. (This from the REALLY OLD folks themselves) But they also say in the same breath..consider the alternatives...


Most of what you hear about the "benefits" of being any age is a load of crap. It's bullshit. I know people of all ages who love their lives exactly as they are. In fact, some of the young people I know seem to be the most dissatisfied, most disgusted and fed up with their lot. Age has nothing do with this.

At no point in my life did I ever want anything to be any different, backward or forward. I am not unique in this regard. This longing to be something other than what one is can be the most debilitating factor in one's life.

True. And from what i'm told getting to be REALLY OLD...REALLY SUCKS. (This from the REALLY OLD folks themselves) But they also say in the same breath..consider the alternatives...


Most of what you hear about the "benefits" of being any age is a load of crap. It's bullshit. I know people of all ages who love their lives exactly as they are. In fact, some of the young people I know seem to be the most dissatisfied, most disgusted and fed up with their lot. Age has nothing do with this.

At no point in my life did I ever want anything to be any different, backward or forward. I am not unique in this regard. This longing to be something other than what one is can be the most debilitating factor in one's life.


In answer to.................

I want to be 21, with all the privileges, size, same weight, youthful looks, that I believe I had then and expertise and money that has come to me being 49, Can you help me?

[Thai Dyed]

I want to be 21, with all the privileges, size, same weight, youthful looks, that I believe I had then and expertise and money that has come to me being 49, Can you help me?

If that is the case Kevin, and for all others who have similar longings as well, there is only suffering: in P─Бli, рджреБрдХреНрдЦ dukkha; and in Sanskrit рджреБрдГрдЦ duс╕еkha.

[attachment=0:vcd8yqj1]Mind is a forerunner of states.jpg[/attachment:vcd8yqj1]

[dab69]

if that why Beach is so bitchy? always pretending to be 26?

ANYWAY the Rome Club owner, after having a fallout with his BF, reportedly put up a sign saying to the effect
"No Homosexuals Allowed". The same location under several different managements have all fallen under some "curse" of bad business to this day.



http://www.suite101.com/content/the-rom ... -54-a67728 (http://www.suite101.com/content/the-rome-club-bangkoks-club-54-a67728)


Silom Soi 4 - P BaseBars come and go many of them unremembered but one erstwhile Bangkok gay club is still fondly remembered by many an ageing bar fly. The Rome Club was one of a kind
Over the years and amongst the cognoscenti there can be no doubt that Silom Soi 4 has acquired the reputation of being one of the worldтАЩs famous "gay" streets. There had been gay bars and pubs in Soi 4 since the mid-1960s but the soi only came to prominence in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The gay bars at this time were no more than shop-houses converted into beer bars, host bars and an ever-changing scene of a go go bars.

Unlike a go go bar-packed "Soi Twilight" on Surriwongse Road, Soi 4 has never been an exclusively gay venue and has always been host to a number of restaurants and bars catering to all and sundry. In its early days Soi 4тАЩs nocturnal entertainment was fairly low-key. Except for one bar which was perhaps the most famous and popular of the early gay venues.

The Rise of the Rome Club
The Rome Club had a number of unsuccessful incarnations before its long run as BangkokтАЩs erstwhile foremost gay/mixed venue; initially occupying a single shop-house it was so popular that it soon quadrupled in size. The club presented a successful mix of extravagantly staged dance shows with a Saturday Night Fever-style disco.

The owners presided over the events and the place did not warm up until the DJ strode across the floor, entered his box and played music that many recall as being the best disco selection in Bangkok. From 11 PM to closing the place was buzzing with bodies gyrating to the sounds of Abba, U2, Culture Club, Michael Jackson, Gloria Gaynor, Duran Duran and other pop greats. For the times it was an unbeatable formula.

Decline and Fall of the Rome Club
The Rome was a kind of Asian Studio 54, attracting a diverse and eclectic global clientele with many of what has been described as BangkokтАЩs "Beautiful People" mixing and mingling with the more ordinary mortals.

For many years the Rome Club dominated the Bangkok gay scene by providing what their public wanted and operating an inclusive door policy: if you were gay or gay friendly, bisexual or some other orientation and above all good looking and trendy you were welcomed to enjoy the bar. But in a strange, sudden and inexplicable reversal of strategy the clubтАЩs owners decided that their gay clientele were no longer welcome heralding the beginning of the end for this particular empire.


It has to be said that many an aging Disco Bunny has fond memories of The Rome Club. That it lives in the memory establishes it a truly iconic symbol of gayness that held its prime position as the place to see and be seen for over 20 years.



Read more at Suite101: Gay History Bangkok's Rome Club: Rome Club Dominated Bangkok's Gay Scene in the late 70s to the 1980s | Suite101.com http://www.suite101.com/content/the-rom ... z1VU2rrWNx (http://www.suite101.com/content/the-rome-club-bangkoks-club-54-a67728#ixzz1VU2rrWNx)

[Thai Dyed]

The same location under several different managements have all fallen under some "curse" of bad business to this day.


Karma?

[attachment=0:32grxj6n]karma.jpg[/attachment:32grxj6n]

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Regarding the history of gay bars in Thailand, there has been no definitive history written yet, alas. Although, going by these commonly read gay boards, there seems to be quite an interest in the gay history of the country, particularly the expat scene.

Here is an extract from an article in on the web about the history of the gay scene in BKK in the mid-twentieth century:

"During the late 50s and early 60s BangkokтАЩs Bangrak area hosted a few тАШmixedтАЩ bars notably the Club 99 opposite what is now the Narai Hotel, Balcony, the one on Charoen Road and one or two bars on Oriental Avenue. The Sea Hag was a seamenтАЩs bar that shifted focus in the mid тАШ60s to become BangkokтАЩs first proper gay bar. Whether or not the Sea Hag was a host bar or an ordinary gay-friendly beer bar is not known; but what is clear is that those that followed were a mixture of both beer and host bars.."

Read the full article here:
http://www.suite101.com/content/history ... ene-a67351 (http://www.suite101.com/content/history-of-bangkoks-gay-scene-a67351)


Of course, there is more to gay history than bars.

One of the best known gay westerners in Bangkok in the post-World War II years was Darrell Berrigan. He was one of the founders of the 'Bangkok World' newspaper in 1945, which was up until the 1980s the main competitor of the Bangkok Post. He was quite closeted seemingly, it is only known that he was gay because he was rather sensationally murdered in 1965, by a male sexual partner, and this became something of a celebrity scandal in the press.

Peter Jackson wrote an article about him for a gay academic journal. You can access it here:

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of ... ckson.html (http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_lesbian_and_gay_studies/v005/5.3jackson.html).

The article can be hard reading, because as with all academic articles Jackson has to spend the firsts few pages spouting theoretical jargon. I would suggest you read from the paragraph entitled "Expatriate Homosexual men in Postwar Bangkok" From that point on it is fascinating. In the article, as well as giving a lot of information about Berrigans life and times (he was involved with the CIA, American espionage, etc.), Jackson also talks about Jim Thompson. Thompson was almost certainly also gay, although some who have written about him, such as William Warren, have made an attempt to make him out as straight. However Jackson does not accept that argument at all and according to him, we can take it one of the most celebrated farangs of mid-twentieth century Bangkok was gay.

Actually, the way Jackson write about William Warren is quite suggestive in itself, I think, but as Warren is still alive, I won't comment any further than that.

And of course, we will have to wait until Prem Tinsulanond (PM of thailand 1980-1988) dies until we hear the full story of his interaction with the gay history of Bangkok.


But back to more normal mortals.

The foundations of Pattaya gay scene are not too clear.. In the 1970s an Indonesian-Dutch guy called Dolf Riks had a restaurant somewhere in Pattaya that was something of a gay gathering place, i believe. The first gay bars date from that decade as well.There is one book that I am aware of that has info on the history of the Pattaya gay bar scene -one of the owners of a gay bar in Pattaya wrote a history of his life and times a few years ago. His name is Michael Burchall, and the book is called "Boyztwon 1982-2008" . You can see a webpage about it here:

http://www.gayaffairspattaya.com/index/ ... o_2008.htm (http://www.gayaffairspattaya.com/index/boyztown_1998_to_2008.htm)

Although it is mainly about his own life and times, he has a bit on the general development of gay Pattaya in general and Boyztown in particular. i think it might still be available for sale in Le Cafe Royale.

[bao-bao]

The Jackson article was long, but worth reading. Thank you for that link!

[lonelywombat]

cut and paste from 7 march 2008 .found it when searching for something else.
gay-thailand-f9/another-pattayaland-soi-boy-bar-closes-t14163-15.html?hilit=dolf (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand-f9/another-pattayaland-soi-boy-bar-closes-t14163-15.html?hilit=dolf)

It seems that BBB opened in 1989



Yes its true that Gordon and I bought the Gentleman's club in 1987, it was a very unusual spur of the moment purchase which was done by Gordon without any input from me. We tryed to change the image of the place from the younger type boys to boyz of legal age, alas this was not to be and did not work so we sold the place on after six months to someone who wanted to restore it to its former customer base. This is when we created Boyz Boyz Boyz, The Ambiance Hotel and Boyztown that was 19 years ago" .....................

At that time the popular bars were, 69 Club, Garden Bar and Cafe Paris in South Pattaya.
No1 Club and Why Not both adjacent to Gentleman's Club
Homex Inn and the biggest bar at that time Adam & Eve in North Pattaya later came Nautilus
The Cockpit was a small bar in the Soi which was to become Boyz Town. The Cockpit later Became Throb and Splash which Gordon and I Developed with KQ.

There was over 25 Gay Bars in Pattaya in 1988 when we opened Boyz Boyz Boyz.

[DamienZ]

Most of what you hear about the "benefits" of being any age is a load of crap. It's bullshit. I know people of all ages who love their lives exactly as they are. In fact, some of the young people I know seem to be the most dissatisfied, most disgusted and fed up with their lot. Age has nothing do with this.

At no point in my life did I ever want anything to be any different, backward or forward. I am not unique in this regard. This longing to be something other than what one is can be the most debilitating factor in one's life.
.

Strong point, spoken with conviction.
I also am very grateful to be who and where I am in life. Buddhist philosophy says we are really, really lucky to have such a fortunate and gifted rebirth here. Whether you are Buddhist or not I'm sure you would agree by comparison. However my statement was part in jest and part in truth. I speak generally from experience when I say the majority of "folks" will admit that decline is not fun. By no means is it a lecture (seriously I wouldn't presume), but it is an unfortunate fact of life. One day it will all go south. So I guess it's all a matter of how you meet it and how one takes care of oneself today.

Teens, 20's, 30's, 40's were all very difficult for me personally, But 50's..I think there are a lot of benefits to this age bracket, and I am enjoying the hell out of it so far, more so than any other decade I have lived through (i'm still a youngster).


I want to be 21, with all the privileges, size, same weight, youthful looks, that I believe I had then and expertise and money that has come to me being 49, Can you help me?

I would do it first..only if I could do it and know what I know now (to agree with you)!! Let's get in line :sign5:

For your reading pleasure... http://www.classicreader.com/book/196/1/

[dab69]

Report this postReply with quoteThompson spotted at the Sea Hag
Author: Utopia ┬╗ 21 Apr 2007 23:12

I know an American ex-G.I., still living with his longtime partner in Thailand, who flew a helicopter in search of J.T. for the CIA. He said he used to see J.T., boy on knee, at the old Sea Hag, Bangkok's original gay bar started by Tiwa (rest in peace) of later Rome Club fame. That's a first-person factoid for history buffs out there.

gay-thailand-f9/gay-jim-thompson-mysterious-disappearance-anniversary-t11130-30.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand-f9/gay-jim-thompson-mysterious-disappearance-anniversary-t11130-30.html)

[Marsilius]

I know an American ex-G.I., still living with his longtime partner in Thailand, who flew a helicopter in search of J.T. for the CIA. He said he used to see J.T., boy on knee, at the old Sea Hag, Bangkok's original gay bar started by Tiwa (rest in peace) of later Rome Club fame. That's a first-person factoid for history buffs out there.

From the Wikipedia entry on "factoid":
A factoid is a questionable or spurious - unverified, incorrect, or fabricated - statement presented as a fact, but with no veracity... The word is defined by the Compact Oxford English Dictionary as "an item of unreliable information that is repeated so often that it becomes accepted as fact"... [According to the Washington Times a factoid is] "something that looks like a fact, could be a fact, but in fact is not a fact". Factoids may give rise to, or arise from, common misconceptions and urban legends.


So I guess that you mean the story of the boy on JT's knee isn't a fact at all!

[dab69]

wouldn't know, quoted from another source as posted.
ask "utopia"

Hi,

On the gay history front there are a few who are no longer with us and maybe some who are that we wished weren't... :evil4:

Ron Muttley, who died of Cancer. German Peter of Krazydragon who suffered a heart attack. Remember Big Ian from Le Cafe, his style cannot be repeated and a lovely generous guy along with Robbie, his partner, both now passed from this mortal coil. You can't forget Ian Mc Knight who didn't give you tips on Pattaya, he wrote novels for you to digest and these were all in the rooms at Le Cafe.

Bruno of Bruno's restaurant as well as Fassbind, the legend at the Royal Cliff, Mr. Pattaya himself. There was the poor guy who had the upstairs bar in my former place and Michael Burchall's Cockpit that hung himself, his name for the moment escapes me.

Mick of Charlie Boys and later Le Cafe, who passed away in very unfortunate and possibly avoidable circumstances, greatly missed and a Pattaya character.

David in Pattaya with all his photographs and reports along with Wowpow. Than there was Brian boxer, always on the go and taking photos and giving helpful information. poor guy, lovely man passed away too.

Life and the scene has moved on and we cannot go back, only remember with the fondest of memories. Those indeed were the days my friends. These were some of the great pioneers of the gay bars, hotels and restaurants in Pattaya and upgraded the gay scene greatly both in attitude and in standards of premises and service.

[Thai Dyed]

[According to the Washington Times a factoid is] "something that looks like a fact, could be a fact, but in fact is not a fact".


This is as crazy as it gets! The Washington Times is one giant factoid. It is the King Factoid... Factoid of Factoids! Supreme God of all Factoids! Its stock in trade is FACTOIDS.

This is the paper that was founded by SUN MYUNG MOON (who among other things claims he is God) and is today run by a Moon group who bought it for $1, although there is a factoid making the rounds which claims Moon is buying it back.

http://www.gorenfeld.net/book/
http://www.realjournalism.net/times.htm

Here is your God and Chief Factoid maker:
[attachment=1:158gdc1f]sun-myung-moon.jpg[/attachment:158gdc1f] [attachment=0:158gdc1f]Moon crowned as Messiah.jpg[/attachment:158gdc1f]

NEWS BRIEF: "The Rev. Moon Honored at Hill Reception", By Charles Babington and Alan Cooperman, Washington Post Staff Writers, Wednesday, June 23, 2004; Page A01

"More than a dozen lawmakers attended a congressional reception this year honoring the Rev. Sun Myung Moon in which Moon declared himself the Messiah and said his teachings have helped Hitler and Stalin be "reborn as new persons." At the March 23 ceremony in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, Rep. Danny K. Davis (D-Ill.) wore white gloves and carried a pillow holding an ornate crown that was placed on Moon's head. The Korean-born businessman and religious leader then delivered a long speech saying he was "sent to Earth . . . to save the world's six billion people. . . . Emperors, kings and presidents . . . have declared to all Heaven and Earth that Reverend Sun Myung Moon is none other than humanity's Savior, Messiah, Returning Lord and True Parent' ... The event's organizers flew in nearly 100 honorees from all 50 states to receive state and national peace awards. The only "international crown of peace awards" went to Moon and his wife."

[Koh Samui Luv]

These were some of the great pioneers of the gay bars, hotels and restaurants in Pattaya and upgraded the gay scene greatly both in attitude and in standards of premises and service.

This is beyond a flight of fantasy Kevin, it is delusional. You call what we see around us today in Pattaya "upgraded" and "in attitude and in standards"? That is simply flabbergasting!

These were some of the great pioneers of the gay bars, hotels and restaurants in Pattaya and upgraded the gay scene greatly both in attitude and in standards of premises and service.

This is beyond a flight of fantasy Kevin, it is delusional. You call what we see around us today in Pattaya "upgraded" and "in attitude and in standards"? That is simply flabbergasting!


Hi,

I was referring to the days of late eighties and mid nineties, not at all what it is like today and their achievements back then in upgrading the bar scene and giving gay people options of places and premises to enjoy.

The thread I thought was talking historically?

[PinkSilom]

There was the poor guy who had the upstairs bar in my former place and Michael Burchall's Cockpit that hung himself, his name for the moment escapes me.

Les from the Rainbow Bar.

I was referring to the days of late eighties and mid nineties

Some agreement there Kevin, personnally I much preferred the Pattaya of the late eighties before the 'infamous two' moved in. Not so many bars etc.. to chose from, but it was far less commercial, and in most cases a lot more fun.