Airbus v Boeing

[wowpow]

I was rather surprised to hear from American friends that they thought Boeing aircraft were far superior to Airbus products. I was told that the build quality was better and the life expectancy longer plus Airbus used cheap plastics. They said that pilots and aircrew had said they much preferred Boeing. Also was said that the Brits were pulling out due to lack of confidence in the A380. They thought that the Boeing Dreamliner was the plane of the future.

My, European, view is basically the opposite. Having travelled on both, as a passenger I liked the Airbus more but that may just have been because they are newer and seemed more elegantly designed. I did think they were quieter.

They're both just glorified sardine cans, Tee Pee

[fedssocr]

I'm not sure there's really that much difference. It depends more on the carrier and how much money they are willing to put into the interior fittings, seating arrangements, IFE, etc. I have had good and bad experiences with both. Then there are also the regional jets by Bombardier and Embraer.

[cottmann]

I was rather surprised to hear from American friends that they thought Boeing aircraft were far superior to Airbus products. I was told that the build quality was better and the life expectancy longer plus Airbus used cheap plastics. They said that pilots and aircrew had said they much preferred Boeing. Also was said that the Brits were pulling out due to lack of confidence in the A380. They thought that the Boeing Dreamliner was the plane of the future.

My, European, view is basically the opposite. Having travelled on both, as a passenger I liked the Airbus more but that may just have been because they are newer and seemed more elegantly designed. I did think they were quieter.

If Boeing aricraft are so safe, why have three whistleblowers launched a lawsuit - U.S. ex rel Smith et al v. Boeing and Ducommun, in the Wichita, Kansas federal courthouse - alleging that the planes are made with bogus parts? Three former Boeing auditors - Jeannine Prewitt, Taylor Smith and James Ailes - accuse Boeing of accepting defective and uninspected parts from Ducommun, a supplier based in Carson, California. They allege that Boeing installed these unsafe and unapproved components on 32 jets built for the government. Because the case was filed under the False Claims Act, it is restricted to military jets and other airplanes sold to the government, but the alleged structural defects in these parts, some classified as тАЬflight safety criticalтАЭ by the government, could likewise threaten the airworthiness of at least 1,600 commercial airplanes manufactured between 1994 and 2004тАФand still flying. In a recent motion to dismiss the case, Ducommun actually argues that the whistleblowers cannot prove that anyone in their company knew the parts were being sold to military or government buyers, because they also routinely supply commercial jets.

In 2005 there were ten major air crashes - five directly involving Boeing-built planes and two built by firms now part of Boeing:

10 December: A Sosoliso Airlines DC-9 crashes in the southern Nigerian city of Port Harcourt, killing 103 people on board. The DC 9 is built by McDonnell-Douglas, now part of Boeing.

6 December: A C-130 military transport plane crashes on the outskirts of the Iranian capital Tehran, killing 110 people, including some on the ground. C-130s are built by Lockheed.

22 October: A Bellview airlines Boeing 737 carrying 117 people on board crashes soon after take-off from the Nigerian city of Lagos, killing everyone on board.

September 5, 2005 - A Boeing 737-200 operated by Indonesian carrier Mandala Airlines crashes just after takeoff near Medan, Indonesia's third-biggest city, in northern Sumatra, killing 149 - almost all the 112 passengers and five crew on board and dozens on the ground.

23 August: A Boeing 737-200 aircraft of Peru's state-run airline TANS with 100 people aboard crashes during a severe storm in the country's northeastern jungle, killing at least 40 people and injuring at least 20.

16 August: A Colombian plane operated by West Caribbean Airways crashes in a remote region in the Sierra de Perija mountains of Venezuela, killing all 160 people on board. The airliner- and MD-80 - was heading from Panama to Martinique, and was packed with residents of the Caribbean island.

14 August: A Helios Airlines Boeing 737 crashes in the area of Kalamos, 30 km north of the Greek capital, Athens, killing all 121 passengers and crew on board. The plane was flying from Cyprus to Prague and crashed apparently after a drop in cabin pressure.

August 2, 2005 - An Air France Airbus bursts into flames after overshooting the runway while landing at Toronto's Pearson International Airport in a storm, but all 309 passengers and crew survive.

16 July: An Equatair Antonov plane crashes soon after take-off from Equatorial Guinea's island capital, Malabo, west of the mainland, killing all 60 people on board.

February 3, 2005 - An Afghan airliner crashes into a mountain near Kabul, killing all 105 people on board. The Boeing 737 was operated by Afghanistan's only private airline, Kam Air.

Which aircraft maker would you choose?

Which aircraft maker would you choose?

I think it probably has a lot to do with the airline/carrier, their safety protocols, servicing records etc. I don't tend to pick my trip based on the aircraft that will (hopefully) get me there. If I was a safety nut (unfortunately I am a cheapo ticket nut) I would end up Flying Qantas wherever I could. The famous quote about Qantas not having a single fatal airline accident is not entirely accurate, it did have several crashes and fatalities in the early days (small bi-planes and sea/flying boats). However, it must be doing something right if it hasn't had a single fatal accident since 1951!

I've noticed quite a lot of Airbus knocking on this site and it's predecessors. After the demise of McDonnell-Douglas, Boeing must have thought they'd inherited the passenger skies. It would seem that just as nature abhors a vacuum American business abhors competition. I can't imagine who puts about this knocking information but I don't see the tactic being reciprocated.

At the end of the day when airlines buy planes, good airlines are tough customers and dictate finish quality and have developed part replacement and maintenance systems. HAECO (Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Co - originally developed to service Cathay at Kai Tak) probably pioneered global outsourcing because the end product was capabale of delivering itself to the maintenance crew. National governments impose safety levels both in the country of registration and visitted countries e.g Brannifs routes to South East Aisa and Phukets routes to Europe.

Yes I'm an anorak, but I don't take down numbers. I lived in Saffend-on-Sea in the days when Freddie Laker was replacing his big nosed car carriers with CL44s. The life of an airframe is a fascinating thing. Don't ya just luv watching spits in the 21st Century.

[manfarang-old]

In 2005 there were ten major air crashes - five directly involving Boeing-built planes and two built by firms now part of Boeing: To be fair, I suspect that currently there are far more Boeing and MD planes of varying ages being flown by commercial airlines than planes of any other manufacturer. And no plane is safe when there are issues involving pilot errors, overloading or poor maintenance. I have no qualms (perhaps foolishly so) about safety when boarding a Boeing, an Airbus or an Embraer flown by any of the major commercial airlines. As for flying enjoyment, it really depends more on how generous or stingy the airline chooses to be with regard to legroom, the newness of furnishings, and the quality of service than it does on the manufacturer of the airplane.

In 2005 there were ten major air crashes - five directly involving Boeing-built planes and two built by firms now part of Boeing:

Pre-airbus, I'm sure and owned by donkey dictator republics obviously bought aftermarket by managements that plan to get every penny they can out of their purchase. And where is the cause of each of those "examples"? I bet most are pilot error. And these would not be in positions where they can just scrap their fleet and buy new ones.

Not a fair comparison at all, cottmann.

But they'd be more conscious of milking the cows and would probably buy longer lasting, cheaper to maintain and less expensive to operate Boeings ;-) if they were to replace the aging fleet with new ones.

I could care less which of the two I go on as long as I get there. They're both safe to me.

Airbus has exprienced its share of mishaps (see below). Both Boeing and Airbus produce quality aircraft but any manufacturer with so many products in service will experience accidents due to a variety of reasons (most of which are due to pilot error or improper maintenance (common failures in the poorly-financed and regulated carriers).

Veteran pilots tend to favor the Boeing because it has maintained the traditional control wheel as opposed to Airbus which has adopted a single-hand stick control, but that is a personal preferance and has no connection to safety. As a previous poster noted, individual carriers determine the comfort level by their selection of seat quality and pitch (distance between seats).

As to the Airbus 380 vs the Boing 787, Boeing is winning that battle. Airbus originally planned to compete by offering a revamped version of the 340 model but has dropped that and plans to introduce an all new 350 model. But the 350 will probably be three years behind the 787 in entering service.

I regularly fly in both Airbus and Boeing aircraft and have equal confidence in te quality of the aircraft. I'm much more concerned with maintenance and crew training. There exists a major shortage of pilots in the Asia and Africa. Many financially-healthy carriers in those regions are hiring laid-off pilots with many years of experience from US and other countries. Some start-up carriers, however, are hiring very inexperienced crews.

AIRBUS ACCIDENTS:

27 June 1976; Air France A300; Entebbe, Uganda: Aircraft was hijacked and all aboard taken hostage. Some passengers were released shortly after the hijacking and the remainder were taken to Entebbe, Uganda. The remaining hostages were eventually rescued in a commando raid. About seven of the 258 passengers were killed.
3 July 1988; Iranair A300; Persian Gulf, near Straits of Hormuz: Aircraft was shot down by a surface to air missile from the American naval vessel U.S.S. Vincennes. All 16 crew and 274 passengers were killed.

28 September 1992; Pakistan International Airlines A300B4; near Katmandu, Nepal: The crew was flying the aircraft was flying an approach about 1600 feet (1000 meters) lower than planned when the aircraft collided with high ground. The event happened in daylight and with cloud shrouding the mountains. All 12 crew and 155 passengers were killed.
26 April 1994; China Airlines A300-600; Nagoya, Japan: Crew errors led to the aircraft stalling and crashing during approach. All 15 crew and 249 of the 264 passengers were killed.

24 December 1994; Air France A300; Algiers Airport, Algeria: Hijackers killed 3 of the 267 passengers. Later, commandos retook the aircraft and killed four hijackers.
26 September 1997; Garuda Indonesian Airways A300B4; near Medan, Indonesia: The aircraft was on approach to Medan on a flight from Jakarta when it crashed in a mountainous area about 19 miles (30 km) from the airport. Extensive smoke and haze from numerous forest fires caused reduced visibility in the area. All 12 crew members and 222 passengers were killed.

16 February 1998; China Airlines A300-600; near Taipei, Taiwan: The aircraft crashed into a residential area short of the runway during its second landing attempt. The scheduled flight had been inbound from the island of Bali in Indonesia. The event occurred under conditions of darkness with rain and reduced visibility due to fog. All 15 crew and 182 passengers were killed. At least seven persons on the ground were also killed.
24 December 1999; Indian Airlines A300; near Katmandu, Nepal: The flight was hijacked shortly after takeoff. The hijackers killed one of the 173 passengers, but none of the 11 crew members.

12 November 2001; American Airlines A300-600; Queens, New York: The aircraft was on a flight from New York to Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic when it crashed into a residential neighborhood just outside JFK airport. The aircraft experienced an in-flight breakup, with the vertical fin and one engine landing away from the main impact site. There were a number of homes damaged or destroyed by the crash, and at least six people on the ground are missing and presumed dead. All nine crew members and 251 passengers on the aircraft were killed, including five infants.
31 July 1992; Thai International A310-300; near Katmandu, Nepal: The aircraft had a controlled flight into terrain about 22.5 miles (36 km) from the airport after apparently using an incorrect procedure for a missed approach. All 14 crew and 99 passengers were killed.

22 March 1994; Russian International Airways A310; near Novokuznetsk, Russia: Lost control and crashed after the captain had allowed at least one child to manipulate the flight controls. All 12 crew and 63 passengers were killed.
31 March 1995; Tarom Romanian Airlines A310; near Balotesti, Romania: Aircraft crashed shortly after taking off in a snowstorm. All 10 crew and 50 passengers were killed.

11 December 1998; Thai Airways International A310-200; near Surat Thani, Thailand: During its third landing attempt, the aircraft crashed just outside the Surat Thani airport. The aircraft was on a domestic flight from Bangkok to Surat Thani. There were 90 fatalities among the 132 passengers and 11 fatalities among the 14 crew members.
30 January 2000; Kenya Airways A310-300; near Abidjan, Ivory Coast: The aircraft crashed into the Atlantic Ocean shortly after taking off at night for a flight from Abidjan to Lagos, Nigeria. All 11 crew members and 158 of the 168 passengers were killed.

26 June 1988; Air France A320; near Mulhouse-Habsheim Airport, France: The aircraft crashed into trees during an air show maneuver when the aircraft failed to gain height during a low pass with the gear extended. Three of the 136 passengers were killed.
14 February 1990; Indian Airlines A320; Bangalore, India: Controlled flight into terrain during approach. Aircraft hit about 400 meters short of the runway. Four of the seven crew members and 88 of the 139 passengers were killed.

20 January 1992; Air Inter A320; near Strasbourg, France: Aircraft had a controlled flight into terrain after the flight crew incorrectly set the flight management system. Five of the six crew and 82 of the 87 passengers perished.
14 September 1993; Lufthansa A320-200; Warsaw Airport, Poland: Aircraft landed with a tail wind. Landing performance and aircraft design led to a late deployment of braking devices. Aircraft overran the runway. One of the 6 crew and 1 of the 64 passengers were killed.

23 August 2000; Gulf Air A320; Near Manama, Bahrain: The aircraft was making a third attempt to land at the Bahrain International Airport after a flight from Cairo when the aircraft crashed into the sea about three miles (4.8 km) from the airport. All eight crew members and 135 passengers were killed.

[/b]

[cottmann]

Airbus has exprienced its share of mishaps (see below). Both Boeing and Airbus produce quality aircraft but any manufacturer with so many products in service will experience accidents due to a variety of reasons (most of which are due to pilot error or improper maintenance (common failures in the poorly-financed and regulated carriers)....... [/b]

Of that list of accients over about 30 years, only a handful related to problems with the planes themselves.

Meanwhile, the Travel section of today's hard-copy "International Herald Tribune" carries a report that Indonesia has banned the import of Boeing 737-2000s because of the number of accidents involving this aircraft type.

They should ban Indonesian pilots and maintenance crews instead...

There is no 737-2000 aircraft. However there is a 737-200 and I believ that is the aircraft to which Cottmann refers. The list below of recent 737 accidents shows that only one incident invovled a major carrier (US discounter Southwest). The remaidner involved small carriers in countries that poorly regulate airlines and fail to effectively monitor crew training and maintenance. As I said in my previous post, I'm always more concerned with the carrier than the aircraft.

There are over 5,000 737 series aircraft in service with hundreds more on order. The 737 is the workhorse of the industry along with the Airbus 320 series. Both have proven to be safe and dependble. But they are machines and need to be maintained and operated by well-trained crews.

Like any againg aircrfat, the 737-200 can be safely flown by an airline that uses well-trained mechanics and flight crews under government authority that monitors and regulates maintenance and training. The question a passenger should ask: "Am I about to make a reservation on such an airline?" That would be a concern when flying one of the small carriers in certain areas of the world, Indonesia among them.

Recent accidents

January 3, 2004 - Flash Airlines, Flight 604, a 737-300 crashed shortly after take-off from Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt killing all 148 passengers and crew.

February 3, 2005 - Kam Air, Flight 904, a 737-200 crashed into a mountain 20 miles (30 km) east of Kabul, Afghanistan killing all 96 passengers and eight crew.

August 14, 2005 - Helios Airways, Flight 522, a 737-300 crashed after cabin decompression and crew loss of consciousness, north of Athens, killing all 118 passengers and crew.

August 23, 2005 - TANS Peru, Flight 204, a 737-200 crashed during a storm in the Peruvian jungle, killing 40 of the 92 passengers and six crew.

September 5, 2005 - Mandala Airlines, Flight 091, a 737-200 crashed in Medan, Indonesia, killing 102 of the 117 passengers and crew, plus 47 more on the ground.

October 22, 2005 - Bellview Airlines, Flight 210, a 737-200 crashed shortly after take-off from Lagos, Nigeria, killing all 111 passengers and six crew.

December 8, 2005 - Southwest Airlines, Flight 1248, a 737-700 slid off the runway during a heavy snowstorm landing on runway 31C (length 6,500 - available to land distance of 5,826 with minimum runway visibility of 4000 feet [3/4 of a mile]) at Chicago's Midway Airport and into a nearby intersection, hitting two cars killing 1 car passenger and injuring eleven other people.

There is no 737-2000 aircraft. However there is a 737-200 and I believ that is the aircraft to which Cottmann refers. The list below of recent 737 accidents shows that only one incident invovled a major carrier (US discounter Southwest). The remaidner involved small carriers in countries that poorly regulate airlines and fail to effectively monitor crew training and maintenance. As I said in my previous post, I'm always more concerned with the carrier than the aircraft.

There are over 5,000 737 series aircraft in service with hundreds more on order. The 737 is the workhorse of the industry along with the Airbus 320 series. Both have proven to be safe and dependble. But they are machines and need to be maintained and operated by well-trained crews.

Like any againg aircrfat, the 737-200 can be safely flown by an airline that uses well-trained mechanics and flight crews under government authority that monitors and regulates maintenance and training. The question a passenger should ask: "Am I about to make a reservation on such an airline?" That would be a concern when flying one of the small carriers in certain areas of the world, Indonesia among them.

Recent accidents

January 3, 2004 - Flash Airlines, Flight 604, a 737-300 crashed shortly after take-off from Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt killing all 148 passengers and crew.

February 3, 2005 - Kam Air, Flight 904, a 737-200 crashed into a mountain 20 miles (30 km) east of Kabul, Afghanistan killing all 96 passengers and eight crew.

August 14, 2005 - Helios Airways, Flight 522, a 737-300 crashed after cabin decompression and crew loss of consciousness, north of Athens, killing all 118 passengers and crew.

August 23, 2005 - TANS Peru, Flight 204, a 737-200 crashed during a storm in the Peruvian jungle, killing 40 of the 92 passengers and six crew.

September 5, 2005 - Mandala Airlines, Flight 091, a 737-200 crashed in Medan, Indonesia, killing 102 of the 117 passengers and crew, plus 47 more on the ground.

October 22, 2005 - Bellview Airlines, Flight 210, a 737-200 crashed shortly after take-off from Lagos, Nigeria, killing all 111 passengers and six crew.

December 8, 2005 - Southwest Airlines, Flight 1248, a 737-700 slid off the runway during a heavy snowstorm landing on runway 31C (length 6,500 - available to land distance of 5,826 with minimum runway visibility of 4000 feet [3/4 of a mile]) at Chicago's Midway Airport and into a nearby intersection, hitting two cars killing 1 car passenger and injuring eleven other people.