Tipping

[Surfcrest]

Tipping is a complicated process for visitors to Thailand because many of us come from different cultures with different tipping norms.
The Thais must know that and although there is pressure in some circumstances over tipping, the more used to it you are the easier it is.

Some restaurants, like the Malai Caf├й at the Malaysia Hotel add a 10% service charge to your bill so you donтАЩt really need to tip, especially if you are charging it to your room bill.
I ate once at a small indoor / outdoor eatery in Nathom Pathom and I left a small tip on the table upon leaving. The waiter (cute as he was) came running after me with the money saying тАЬforget money, forget moneyтАЭ. When I gestured to him that it was a tip for him to keep he gave a huge smile, which switch to a confused look as he returned to the restaurant not quite grasping what the money was for. Tipping changes depending on where you are and what you are doing.
These small eateries, or eateries out on the street donтАЩt require you to tip unless its like the change in coins.

Restaurants IтАЩll tip 10% - 15% depending on the service, more if itтАЩs friends.
If I have a group or the service is exceptional, IтАЩll tip in the billfold and direct to the person I think deserved it on the outside or right into their hand discreetly.
Gay establishments, I generally tip more to even if the service sucks especially if IтАЩm planning to come back again. I would hope leaving a good tip would improve things for the next visit, but this isnтАЩt always the case. Mai Bpen Rai.

Bars are where it gets tricky.
A lot of money passes hands at the bars and so everyone wants a piece.
Boys will sit uninvited with you,
Waiters and hosts will sit with you.
They expect a tip after for it, even though there probably shouldnтАЩt be.
If they see you slip some money to someone that helped you.
Many more will put their hand out.
If you challenge them on it theyтАЩll smile and tell you theyтАЩre joking.
Many farangs will pay, not knowing.
If the host / mamasan helps me with my choice of boy, IтАЩll tip him privately.
Usually 200 baht or more depending on how well we communicated and how hard he worked.
IтАЩll give the bar a small tip in the billfold, per slip in my cup.
IтАЩll slip the waiter 100 baht outside the billfold if I have multiple slips in my cup.
Nothing if I am only there for one drink.
Never tip the doormen.
Okay, I have in fact and have taken some away but thatтАЩs not really a tip but more тАЬyour hotтАЭ moneyтАжmore depending on how hot he is.
A Happy Ending massage tip should around 500 baht more if you are really happy or want to take it farther later.
The full meal deal massage, more than just a hand job between 500 тАУ 1000.
This you can find at Adam & Eve in Pattaya.
A really short time fling can be the 500 baht minumum including a very disappointing one. This also includes the ones I send home before I ever get them home.
Most short time events start at 1000.
The better the bar (high profile like Bozy Boyz Boyz , Throb / Splash but not The Rainbow Bar even though you may like it better ;) The more you pay, especially if you take out on of their main attractions.
Last year I had the best service ever at Dreamboys, always getting some of the best seats right at showtime, even on the weekend simply because I looked after the host.
My Boyspecial in Bangkok was a main attraction at X-man Thailand and he was quite happy with 1500. I think he was worth double, but not to spoil him.
HeтАЩs out of the bar now temporarily.
Boys that stay with you I generally give 2000 baht / day. That might be high, but I would never let them stay with me unless I thought they were amazing.
IтАЩll occasionally buy small gifts to the best of the best.
Boys that I send away before going for some fun a give 500 baht.
If a boy convinces you to off his friend so you can all go out somewhere,
You need to give him the minimum 500 baht.

I never tip taxiтАЩs, unless they perform miracles.
Limousine service on the other hand IтАЩll tip.
Motorcycle taxiтАЩs? no
Sawngthaew (Baht Bus)? No
Bicycle taxis IтАЩll tip, especially an old guy that has to work hard for sure.
Guides should get 15% or 500 baht / day
Water taxis, yes.

Door man at your hotel 100 baht in / 100 baht out.
The maid. 50 тАУ 100 baht / day.
At the beach I always give the change <100 baht plus 100 baht / day.
I buy some of the boys a beer from time to time and
I always put 1000 baht in the tip jar on my last day.
IтАЩll sometimes tip a beach massage if itтАЩs really good.
I always tip my regular girl 200 baht on my 600 baht bill.
I tip the lady that brings me fruit 20 baht some days (not always)

Surely many will disagree, but these are generally my tipping norms.

Chok Dee

Surfcrest

There goes another walking ATM.

Gay establishments, I generally tip more to even if the service sucks especially if IтАЩm planning to come back again.
Surfcrest

I agree with most of your post with the exception of the above.

Why do you feel the need to discriminate between gay and straight establishments when it is the service provided you are tipping for?

[Smiles]

One thing to keep in mind about tipping in Thailand ~ and this goes especially for places which are mostly oriented to a Thai clientele ~ is what they do with the tips after you've left. The usual case ~ I'm sure there are exceptions ~ is that the tips are pooled, and then divided up amongst the staff according to the formula established by the owner or manager.

So ... if you have an especially good waiter who has been pleasant, attentive, professional, friendly, charming, or simply bloody stunning (or whatever it is you want in a good waiter) and you'd like to make sure he gets a good piece of the action, you'll have to do things a little differently (Surfcrest alluded to this practice in his opening post, but I'll elaborate):

Place the main tip in the little folder you'll usually receive containing your change, but give less than you'd normally give. Take the extra (or add extra to a normal tip ~ whatever you wish), fold it up carefully so it is a small & unobtrusive thing, and discreetly place it ito his shirt pocket or (better!) into his hand and then close up his hand around it. Give him a big sincere smile (you'll get one back). Words are not necessary ... he/she will know that the entire amount is for him/her alone, and that he's not required to "share".
Don't do this with great fanfare or drama. Make it a quiet event between yourself and your waiter. Trust me, he'll greet you with a big Thai smile the next time you come back to that place, and the service will be at least equal to the first time, if not better. A win/win situation: Everybody's happy!!

This is an important part of tipping in Thailand.

Cheers ...

[Surfcrest]

Restaurants IтАЩll tip 10% - 15% depending on the service, more if itтАЩs friends. If I have a group or the service is exceptional, IтАЩll tip in the billfold and direct to the person I think deserved it on the outside or right into their hand discreetly.

Gay establishments, I generally tip more to even if the service sucks especially if IтАЩm planning to come back again. I would hope leaving a good tip would improve things for the next visit, but this isnтАЩt always the case. Mai Bpen Rai.

I threw this one in for my pal LMTU, our resident gladiator for some thai business owners.
I've had luck lustre service from some other gay businesses that I've been able to turn around or at least be remembered by the last tips.
I only discriminate with gay businesses when I choose where I'm going, I generally frequent gay or gay advertised places (with some exceptions) no matter what city / country I'm in.

Surfcrest

[wowpow]

If it was not written by Surfcrest, I would say it was a troll. What can one say? well he has a generous heart and deep pockets.

Though the subject is a minefield, I find it fascinating, curious and a mystery why people, throw their money around as they do - and this includes myself. Even more of a mystery to me is how some can be mean to delighful Thai people. There is a longish trail on this topic on GayThailand entitled Farang Logic thought that's mainly on 'tips' for a shag.

There seems to be a complete inability for many to adjust their tips to the country that they are in and the tipping culture there. Americans seem to be particularly prone. My theory is that one should, on receipt of good service, be generousl according to the local culture. That maskes for happy staff and happy customers. In the US one tips 15 - 20% in a restaurant as that's the culture and the basic wages are low. In New Zealand it is not the custom to tip in a restaurant as they are reasonably paid. To tip on top of an added service charge seems ludicrous unless the service has been very exceptional. In Thailand the culture is to leave the small change or a very small tip in tens of bahts not percents.

Some people seem to get tipping and charity mixed up. It would doubtless make the world a better place by donating to very worthy causes instead of tipping staff well.

Like most of us Surfcrest has little logic about his generous tipping. He does not tip taxi drivers which is reasonable as it is not the norm. However, they have not had a rise in the meter tariff since before the rise in fuel prices and must be hurting.

I remember reading an article not long ago - but where? - on tipping and it read " the stupified doorman who has just received a bt100 tip is saying to himself. bemused. but all I did is open the door!". I used just leave the small change but now I make sure that there is more smalll change.

I am looking forward to other's views.

I think tipping behavior like Surfcrest's is tipping imperialism.
Thailand had a very different tipping culture before mass tourism, and now it is corrupted.
Yes, American's are the worst offenders here, myself included, because I have done my share of "damage".
It really makes no logical sense to export your country's tipping culture to another country.

[bucknaway]

I was taught how and when to tip by the thai guys I have come to know. And they frown on over-tipping and feel we are showing off when we throw our money around.

I tip but I tip like I am a common worker :geek:

[fedssocr]

I am curious why you would tip a doorman B100 in and out each but only tip the housekeeper 50-100 when surely s/he is doing a whole lot more work than opening a door. I personally never tip a doorman anywhere. I am not so feeble that I cannot open the door myself. I will thank some one for opening the door for me but that's about all the tip anyone should expect.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to tipping, just common sense. Also note that tipping is an option, not a must. There are circumstances that are obviously not as simple as black and white. Use your judgement when deciding to tip or not to tip.


I personally believe in tipping and typically tip well. I also expect service to be extraordinary and deserving a better tip.

If it was not written by Surfcrest, I would say it was a troll. What can one say? well he has a generous heart and deep pocketsI'm wondering what the definition of a troll is. It seems to be "someone whose opinions/actions/looks I dislike" - ie. a totally meaningless term except to signify disapproval

A friend of mine the other day was chatting online, hoping for a pick-up, and concluded a satisfactory discussion only to find that the young man wanted then to defer the meeting for a couple of days because he had something else to do that day. It was my friend's last night in town - which he had already made clear. On my friend repeating that it was "today or never", the young man turned abusive and said my friend was "a troll". (This was in the US of A, God's own cuntry)

I'm fairly certain my friend doesn't fit the definition of "A supernatural creature of Scandinavian folklore, variously portrayed as a friendly or mischievous dwarf or as a giant, that lives in caves, in the hills, or under bridges" (from dictionary.com). Perhaps Young Master Cedric can enlighten us?

If it was not written by Surfcrest, I would say it was a troll. What can one say? well he has a generous heart and deep pocketsI'm wondering what the definition of a troll is.

An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people.

Trolls see Internet communications services as convenient venues for their bizarre game. For some reason, they don't "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their 'achievement' (as they see it). At the moment, the relative anonymity of the net allows trolls to flourish.

Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility.

Perhaps this sounds inconceivable. You may think, "Surely there is something I can write that will change them." But a true troll can not be changed by mere words.

Why Does it Matter?
Some people тАФ particularly those who have been online for years тАФ are not upset by trolls and consider them an inevitable hazard of using the net. As the saying goes, "You can't have a picnic without ants."

It would be nice if everybody was so easy-going, but the sad fact is that trolls do discourage people. Established posters may leave a message board because of the arguments that trolls ignite, and lurkers (people who read but do not post) may decide that they do not want to expose themselves to abuse and thus never get involved.

Another problem is that the negative emotions stirred up by trolls leak over into other discussions. Normally affable people can become bitter after reading an angry interchange between a troll and his victims, and this can poison previously friendly interactions between long-time users.

Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash.

The Internet is a wonderful resource which is breaking down barriers and stripping away prejudice. Trolls threaten our continued enjoyment of this beautiful forum for ideas.

What Can be Done about Trolls?
When you suspect that somebody is a troll, you might try responding with a polite, mild message to see if it's just somebody in a bad mood. Internet users sometimes let their passions get away from them when seated safely behind their keyboard. If you ignore their bluster and respond in a pleasant manner, they usually calm down.

However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:

The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.

When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored.

I'm wondering what the definition of a troll is

Sydney, boygeorge ?

I think I'll stick to the English language, but thanks for the explanation. What you are saying is that it is possible to impute motive to the (often poorly-expressed) written words of some anonymous total stranger, infallibly. That's just nonsense

I'm not sure how Surfcrest's explanation of his tipping practices makes him a troll under any of those somewhat arcane "definitions". I'm guessing that the largely simple-minded population who infest the Internet have just discovered another form of personal abuse, and I'll stick to my own view - it's a meaningless term used to abuse people whose opinions differ from one's own

Smiles advice is spot on.. It's hard for me to get out of the habit of leaving the tip on the table or adding it to the bill.. My Boyfriend is constantly reminding me to give the tip directly to the waiter...

[piston10]

I find Surfcrest's post interesting and helpful - but only, I suppose, because it fits in quite well with my own (tourist - even if long-stay) practice. And I'm not American! But I am a little puzzled by his 100 baht in / 100 baht out to the hotel doorman. I might give this if the doorman had gone out on to the street and selected for me a responsible taxi driver, who had agreed to charge on the meter; but an extra 200 baht on the bill every time I pop out to the 7/11 round the corner? I reckon this regime would cost me at least 1,000 baht a day, on some busy days much more - or else I would begin to feel holed-up because it was too expensive to leave the hotel. Is it possible that what he really intended to say was 100 baht on arrival and 100 baht on departure? I have often noted that a doorman gets 100 baht from guests as they climb into their taxi to the airport. Fair enough, I'd say.

[Surfcrest]

Sorry for the confusion, but my relationship with the hotel doorman extends much farther than just holding the door open for me.

Mine looks after my laundry, stores my bags when I'm on the road travelling, does me little favours and we share long conversations about anything from the weather to directions for this place or that. He has also been an great translator and most importanly a friend over several years. As I come and go in / out several times with each Thai visit, he earns far more than just 200 baht.

I set the maid tip at 50 baht, but I personally always give 100 baht.

Also with taxis, I'll give the metered taxis a little extra but never a Tuk - Tuk, especially if I have to negotiate hard and pay more than I wanted to out of desperation.

Chok Dee

Surfcrest

[wowpow]

"An electronic mail message, Usenet posting or other (electronic) communication which is intentionally incorrect, but not overtly controversial (compare flame bait), or the act of sending such a message. Trolling aims to elicit an emotional reaction from those with a hair-trigger on the reply key. A really subtle troll makes some people lose their minds. (1994-10-17)"

Source: The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, ┬й 1993-2005 Denis Howe

OR

troll

v.,n. 1. [From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] Toutter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it.

See also YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll

Some people claim that the troll (sense 1) is properly a narrower category than flame bait, that a troll is categorized by containing some assertion that is wrong but not overtly controversial. See also Troll-O-Meter.

That merely reinforces what I have already said. Anyone who believes they can impute motive etc. etc. I imagine the authors are American so I can understand how they struggle with the English language

That merely reinforces what I have already said. Anyone who believes they can impute motive etc. etc. I imagine the authors are American so I can understand how they struggle with the English language
That smarts.
The international language now happens to be American English, not British English. Nothing personal. Just the facts.

The international language now happens to be American English, not British English. Nothing personal. Just the facts.Based on? For Americans English is clearly their second language. You have only to look at Thais practising their English on each other, and Americans practising their English on each other, to see the similarities

An interesting read, Surfcrest.
More generous than I am with respect to tipping, but not by a big margin.
Enjoy your posts - always coherent and informative and interesting. I notice you mention knowing letmeboreyou - how do you communicate?

Is tipping of the hotel maid a norm here? I have almost never done it.

Is tipping mamasans in bars justified, or as much? Are they not paid by the bar specifically to provide the services mentioned, not that some do?

I noticed that Adam and Eve was mentioned, and Surfcrest made it read as if he had visited, maybe a number of times. I've always been going to go, it's a bit of a hassle to get to, and so have not got there. Would love to read a report about it. Hint to Surfcrest, or anyone else. Thanks.

[bing]

Who knows what is the proper tip. The giver is the final decider. (Just like the President) Lets face it guys, when one in on his two week vacation (Holiday to the folks from Europe and Aussie land), you can spread out finances a bit more liberally than if one lives in an area full time. I have an observation about young men 19 and older you might choose to spend your time. I suggest 1000 baht per day and let the new friend know, if he chooses not to return that is OK, but you will be around the next day and day after. Naturally I pick up lots of incidentals and have fun doing a bit of shopping. Last year, when my new friend showed up with a T-shirt I did not care for, we went shopping for a shirt I liked before we set out for a nice dinner. If you find a Thai guy you enjoy being with, let them know ten days can add up to nice amount. I insist they can move on if they so desire and no hard feelings, usually the Thai young men I meet are happy to be with me on my terms. I note that most of the Thai guys can only take so much of the beach. I have them join me one or two days and other times say meet me at hotel at 6:00 for a night on the town. I offer this as a template, and see if your lifestyle is similar. I spend way too much in 15 days of most vacations, but then one can save fiances all year, spend it on vacation.

Surfcrest, Maybe you can get away with such low tips for massage "services" at Adam&Eve.. but in Bangkok, you would be labeled a "cheap Farang" from the boys I know that work at the massage houses. They expect the minimum Tip (usually 500 baht) for a Massage ONLY. 1000 baht for a handjob, 1000+ for oral, and 1500 UP for anal sex. Of course, these prices are negotiable if they find you attractive hehe

[Surfcrest]

The full meal deal massage, more than just a hand job between 500 тАУ 1000.
This you can find at Adam & Eve in Pattaya.

You are right, hand jobs start at 500 baht and I've always given 1000 at Adam & Eve.
There's an additional fee to the bar, plus drinks if you order one or more for yourself and for the boy at the introduction phase.
Don't forget to add the generous tip to the boy or one of the other boys that takes you back to civilization on the back of his motorcycle.
Easily a 2000 baht night going there with a hit and miss shot at getting one of the few stars that they have.
As the boy isn't required to go to your hotel room and find his way back to the club later, you could probably justify 500 - 1000 there depending on your level of satisfaction, be it with the massage, the sex or combination of both.
My boyfriend who quite enjoys Adam & Eve tips on the lower end of my scale when he joins me on my trips and he never has a problem or negative feedback with the amount he gives.
As I said before, everyone is different.
I never even mentioned the gold or the motorcycles I've bought.
All within my means, its not about being careless with money but rather building memories for myself that I'll always treasure. Absolutely no regrets so far.

Surfcrest

P.S. On a regular 300 baht foot massage I tip 50 baht and on a non-Happy ending body massage of 500 baht I tip 100 baht.

[cottmann]

....The international language now happens to be American English, not British English. Nothing personal. Just the facts.

Really - which version? That of the Pacific Northwest or of the Delaware Valley? Of New Orleans, Louisiana, or of the New York City Area? Of The South, of Eastern Wisconsin or of Wisconsin and northern Illinois? Of Minnesota or of Northern and Eastern Missouri or of New England? Or perhaps you refer to New York-New Jersey English, or Baltimorese, or Pittsburgh English, or Northeastern American English or possibly California English? "American-English" is a potpourri of regional vocabularies, many only mutually intelligible. The accent used by many broadcasters - Middle American - is only that - an accent - and not a linguistic standard.

....The international language now happens to be American English, not British English. Nothing personal. Just the facts.

Really - which version? American-English" is a potpourri of regional vocabularies, many only mutually intelligible.

Very true. How about a list of 'regional vocabularies' used in the UK. Start with London.

[wowpow]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/rou ... what.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/routes_doyouknowwhat.shtml)

"Do You Know What You Are Saying? Melvyn Bragg iand mp3 player mageMelvyn Bragg explores the latest revelations that computing and science are bringing to the way we use our language: using the latest computer-assisted research he discovers hitherto unrealised patterns in the way we use our language, both literary and spoken.

Some forty years ago great hopes were raised in the literary community that the sort of routine mechanical analysis of literary texts (e.g. word counts and frequency of use of particular terms) that the advent of the computer and its ability to crunch large amounts of detail quickly and accurately could deliver were going to revolutionise study. Today, there's a certain degree of scepticism. Some of the claims - like the computer-aided study that suggested that Sylvia Plath's verse foreshadowed her suicide - have been greeted with ridicule in some quarters. Yet slowly but surely as the software becomes more sophisticated, major advances are being made."

The absolutely extraordinary result of computer analysis of various pieces of writing and speech was that usually well over 80% of the words used were in common useage in the Anglo-Saxon 5th Century. Despite the Roman rule, Norman Conquest, the Viking invasions, Empire and hosts of new words coming from across thr Atlantic the basic language has changed a great deal less than expected.

You can listen to these broadcasts on demand in your computer.


Though everyone heards quite a lot of American English spoken in movies and radio there seems to be a strong tendency to go for presenters who speak English with an Oxford English accent ( often known a BBC. Especially on tv News broadcasts I hear this on German, CNN and all the BBC Radio media. It is liked for clarity of pronunciation and an absence of excessive jargon.

I suppose that most parents would like their children to be taught to speak like Tony Blair rather than George Bush? contentious? Moi!

....The international language now happens to be American English, not British English. Nothing personal. Just the facts.

Really - which version? That of the Pacific Northwest or of the Delaware Valley? Of New Orleans, Louisiana, or of the New York City Area? Of The South, of Eastern Wisconsin or of Wisconsin and northern Illinois? Of Minnesota or of Northern and Eastern Missouri or of New England? Or perhaps you refer to New York-New Jersey English, or Baltimorese, or Pittsburgh English, or Northeastern American English or possibly California English? "American-English" is a potpourri of regional vocabularies, many only mutually intelligible. The accent used by many broadcasters - Middle American - is only that - an accent - and not a linguistic standard.
No, the accent used by major network broadcasters is an American English which has NO discernable American regional accent. It is the bland standard, yet lots of Americans do speak this way, probably most are from the East and West coasts. It is NOT Middle American, because Midwesterners have a distasteful twang in their accent and do not in any sense have a standard accent. I remember when I once moved to Chicago and took a bus, my ears almost started bleeding.

Anyway, I wasn't talking about dialects or accents, I was referring to the structure of the grammar and the vocabulary. There is indeed an identifiable standard American English. Just because I am pointing out the reality that this specific language is now the premier international lingua franca doesn't mean I approve of this development; however it is bloody damn convenient for travelling Yanks, let me tell you!

In Thailand, it is my understanding that American teachers are considered more desirable than Brits, and not because they are cuter. Which of course, they are.

In Thailand, it is my understanding that American teachers are considered more desirable than Brits, and not because they are cuter. Which of course, they are.

Surely you say that with your tongue firmly in your cheek and are not in any way referring to our American Teacher. The Needy Crook is neither cute nor desirable.

[piston10]

Surfcrest: "All within my means, it's not about being careless with money but rather building memories for myself that I'll always treasure. No regrets so far."

I judge that Surfcrest is a bit better off financially than I am (I don't think I'll ever get into the handing-out-motor-bikes league!), but that makes no difference to the point he is making and the way he has found to say it. I am grateful for this formulation, because, even though I had not managed to find the words for myself, they express beautifully what lies behind my own tipping in Thailand and my general approach to Thai people. I have the right to create good memories for myself, and it's this attitude that makes me impervious to the understandable complaints of Thai residents that 'tourists' come along and skew the market. ('Understandable' because the purchasing power of pensions and one's savings inevitably declines over the years wherever you live, and it's a worrying fact.) I DO, luckily, have good memories and I'm grateful for them, even if, when I'm home again, they keep intruding when my mind ought to be on something else!

(On a quite separate issue - and I ask in despair! - how do you get a quote from another post to come up in that box that starts 'Surfcrest wrote:.....'? Is there anywhere on the forum that explains how you do it? Thanks.)

[Smiles]

(On a quite separate issue - and I ask in despair! - how do you get a quote from another post to come up in that box that starts 'Surfcrest wrote:.....'? Is there anywhere on the forum that explains how you do it? Thanks.)
Hi Piston ... you can accomplish this in 2 ways, the first automatic, the second by hand.

(1) When you read something in someone's post you wish to quote, just go up to the top right area of the message and you'll see a little red 'QUOTE' button
Hit that button and up will open a "compose message" pane which will automatically contain the entire message of the poster you whish to quote.
All you have to do then is edit out any peripheral stuff in the message, leaving only the pertinent parts which you'd like to include in your reply.
Then simply reply to the quoted part in the area below as per a regular posting.



(2) You can acomplish the same thing "by hand" by copying any part of any person's post and pasting it into an empty "compose message" pane. Then simply surround the quoted part using this code:

<quote="the member's handle here">the quoted portion here</quote>

You MUST surround the member's handle with quotation marks (it won't work if you don't.
Most importantly, you must use the square brackets ( i.e. "[...]" ) . . . not the brakets I'ved used (i.e. "<...>" ) I had to use these to make the demonstration come up as I want it.


Hope this helps
Cheers ...

[piston10]

Thank youfor your instructions, which I have filed for future use. I imagine there must be others who have found them helpful, too.

[cottmann]

....The international language now happens to be American English, not British English. Nothing personal. Just the facts.

... Just because I am pointing out the reality that this specific language is now the premier international lingua franca doesn't mean I approve of this development; however it is bloody damn convenient for travelling Yanks, let me tell you!

Again, disputed. British-English is the preferred form in most of the Commonwealth countries - Canada and those in the Caribbean probably excepted - and the European Union, as well as former Commonwealth domains in the Middle East and Southeast Asia that have left the Commonwealth. American English, true, is dominant in Northern Asia (particularly Japan, Korea and Taiwan), the Philippines, Central and Latin America (as well as any other locale conveniently located near a U.S. military base). British-English countries account for as many if not more business and more international travellers than the USA does. Moreover, even in publishing, British-English books are now no longer automatically "Americanised" for the US market - check it out - a sure sign that American-English is not the premier international lingua franca.

Thank youfor your instructions, which I have filed for future use. I imagine there must be others who have found them helpful, too.

Yes, very much so.

[puckered_penguin]

[quote="TeePee"]Like most of us Surfcrest has little logic about his generous tipping. He does not tip taxi drivers which is reasonable as it is not the norm. However, they have not had a rise in the meter tariff since before the rise in fuel prices and must be hurting.


Taxis in Thailand are almost always fuelled by LPG (Liquid Petroleum Gas) and that retails for less than 10 baht per litre and I believe the price has not risen at all in the last 6 months. or barely at all.

cottman, we will just have to disagree. I guess losing empires can be painful. Of course, Commonwealth countries will favor British English. But what do you think Chinese children are now learning? How do you think they will spell the word color? Get my point?


From Wikipedia:

From the second half of the 20th century to the present day, the preeminence of the English language has been augmented by the economic, military and political dominance of the United States in world affairs. Indeed, American English is often regarded by Americans as the most prominent form of English in the world today, a view reinforced by the large amount of U.S. cultural products (including films) in global circulation. Thus the United States, born out of former British colonies, acted to perpetuate the dominance of English.

cottman, we will just have to disagree. I guess losing empires can be painful. Of course, Commonwealth countries will favor British English. But what do you think Chinese children are now learning? How do you think they will spell the word color? Get my point?Quoting from an "encyclopedia" where there is absolutely no quality control (ie. anyone could contribute an article about any member of this Forum, however inaccurate or prejudiced, and get it accepted on Wikpedia) proves nothing. The fact is that there is American English and there is English for the rest of the world. It's not to do so much with spelling (the Australians would probably have color as well - they certainly have labor), as use. Consider "momentarily", for example. It has one meaning in the US, another elsewhere. As for China - my impression is that China, as elsewhere in SE Asia, is largely the province of non-US English teachers. Certainly the English used in India, Singapore and Malaysia, for example, is somewhat ossified British colonial English. I'm still amused when I hear Malaysian (Chinese) boys talk of "hanky panky", a slang term popular in England in the Fifties (when Malaysia became independent), and a usage I've never encountered in the US. But I guess that endless American narcissism just won't accept that the world is not tending towards the American imperium in language as well as everything else

You may find this article about US and European attitudes informative. The writer is at Princeton University. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story ... 65,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,1761965,00.html)

Nothing to do with narcissism. It is more about Hollywood and American cultural influences.
Hanky Panky is understood in the US, not seen as British, just obsolete.
I am not really interested in creating hostilities.
I remained totally unconvinced by your arguments. I know what I have personally observed through travel to over 50 nations. Including France.

I know what I have personally observed through travel to over 50 nations. Including France.Ah yes, of course, "personal observation". Those coach tours do 5 countries in one day, I believe

I know what I have personally observed through travel to over 50 nations. Including France.Ah yes, of course, "personal observation". Those coach tours do 5 countries in one day, I believe
How presumptious of you!

No coach tours at all. Personally, I like to go to a place and stay at least three weeks. I was recently in Buenos Aires for two months. (BTW, did you know that to this day the people of Argentina refer to Brits as PIRATES?)

Are you now going to get anti-American here? As the "decider" of my country (who I detest) says, "Bring it on!"

Look, you make some interesting points, and I am sure many people reading your points might be persuaded. I am not. On the other hand, it isn't really a big issue, because speaking any kind of English as a native language is a great blessing when travelling the world today. We are bloody lucky, eh?

And we do still call the language ENGLISH. So you win. Now have a nice biscuit.

In Australia that is known as a 'dummy spit'

I had to look that up, but I suppose you are right. Aussie slang is very amusing.

[cottmann]

cottman, we will just have to disagree. I guess losing empires can be painful. Of course, Commonwealth countries will favor British English. But what do you think Chinese children are now learning? How do you think they will spell the word color? Get my point?

Interesting response if (a) I belonged to a country that has lost an empire and/or (b) if I belonged to a country that is a member of the Commonwealth. The point is, however, that I don't.

With regard to which version of English that Chinese children are learning, I suggest you google IELTS China and TOEFL China. From such sources, it would seem that a considerable number of Chinese children are studying British-English - IELTS is the Commonwealth-response to TOEFL.

The dominance of Hollywood and American cultural influences is, in my opinion, less that US citizens imagine. Much that is seen as "American dominance" is simply modernisation.

I believe - guess, you would probably say? - that we will have to continue to disagree in an amicable fashion.

It is certainly not only Americans who think that Hollywood movies are a major worldwide cultural force.

http://www.topics-mag.com/globalization ... kraine.htm (http://www.topics-mag.com/globalization/movies-ukraine.htm)

The recently completed Disney World Hong kong is not proving quite the attraction to the Chinese that it was hoped. More went to Ocean Park, an aquarium/fun-fair with a Chinese theme, over the 'Golden Week" and Buddha's birthday last week. Seems mickey mouse is dead in China.

[cottmann]

It is certainly not only Americans who think that Hollywood movies are a major worldwide cultural force.

http://www.topics-mag.com/globalization ... kraine.htm (http://www.topics-mag.com/globalization/movies-ukraine.htm)

Hardly either an authority or an authoritative source, surely? For ever student of English writing a personal viewpoint in an online magzine published by two ESL/EFL professionals in Yuma County, Arizona, I am sure I could produce someone with an equal and opposite viewpoint.

Fine, Hollywood movies have no influence.
So I wonder why it seems everywhere I go, the cinemas are programmed with mostly Hollywood product.
I never said I personally LIKE this, but it is the reality on the ground today.

[cottmann]

....So I wonder why it seems everywhere I go, the cinemas are programmed with mostly Hollywood product..

Three possible answers:

(A) You should get out more - i.e., places where tourists do not go but where the local do;
(B) Gresham's Law;
(C) People go to compare the Hollywood version with the original from which it has been copied, e.g., The Grudge, The Ring, The Magnificent Seven (remake of The Seven Samurai) and Shall We Dance (Richard Gere) - all based on Japanese movies; Criminal - based on an Argentine movie called Nine Queens; Vanilla Sky - based on a Spanish movie called "Abre Los Ojos;" The Birdcage - based on a French movie; etc, etc., etc.

I do get out, and I seek out international films, but you have to go out of your way to find non Hollywood product in many countries. This is an obvious reality.

[cottmann]

I do get out, and I seek out international films, but you have to go out of your way to find non Hollywood product in many countries. This is an obvious reality.

I live in Japan and it is not at all difficult to find non-Hollywood movies - check for yourself - http://www.seekjapan.jp/movies.php

'No, the accent used by major network broadcasters is an American English which has NO discernable American regional accent' - quote Thaiquila

Have you heard Nancy Grace and others on Fox News! It sounds to me like an educated trailer trash accent if ever I heard one.

As for whether we, or other people's of the world, speak English as English or English as American English, it may be worth considering that we are all wrong. As far as I can recall, English actually derives from one of the Germanic Languages, so infact we may all be speaking German - please feel free to lay into me on this and prove me wrong :geek:

As an English person, I also think it is hardly a problem how words are spelt and more important that the meaning is translated by the pronunciation or phonetic spelling (one example of this, amongst many, I saw in Malaysia where 'motorcycle' was spelt 'Motosikal' - this may be a phonetic {mis}spelling or an amalgam of Anglo/Malay). A lot of English words seem to have extra letters added (which become silent when the word is pronounced) to make it confusing for English people let alone those from other countries. America, to some extent, has reduced this with their version of the spelling of some words.

Such axamples include:

ENGLISH / AMERICAN
Moustache / Mustache
Yoghurt / Yogurt
Cheque / Check
Draught / Draft
Hiccough / Hicup
Mould / Mold
Plough / Plow

For those Brits who get het up about American spelling being innacurate, you may wish to consider the word 'Aluminium'. The American version of the word is spelt 'Aluminum'. As I recal (recall), A Brit' named Davey who discovered Alumin(ium/um) was to blame, first naming the substance 'Alumium', then renaming it 'Aluminum' before settling on the internationally recognised 'Aluminium'. Who can blame anyone for getting pissed at the English language and adopting their own version.

Apologies for any spelling errors :cheers:

[cottmann]

... As for whether we, or other people's of the world, speak English as English or English as American English, it may be worth considering that we are all wrong. As far as I can recall, English actually derives from one of the Germanic Languages, so infact we may all be speaking German - please feel free to lay into me on this and prove me wrong :geek:
...

You are not wrong - English is a descendant of the language spoken by the Angles and Saxons who invaded Britain from parts of what are now Germany and Denmark



...As an English person, I also think it is hardly a problem how words are spelt and more important that the meaning is translated by the pronunciation or phonetic spelling ....

Much of "English" spelling was codified by Dr. Samuel Johnson, who chose among alternatives, and much of "American" spelling - which is often based on earlier 17th century English spelling - by Noah Webster, who in fact borrowed some of his spellings from earlier dictionaries.

"Aluminium" is the official name of the metal according to the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemists and this seems to have been the standard American spelling until 1925 when the American Chemical Society decided to change the spelling for their official publications - http://www.world-aluminium.org/history/language.html

Are you now going to get anti-American here?Now?! You clearly haven't read my thread "Why I believe in God" over in the Global Forum - http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... php?t=7816 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7816)

Japan is one country.
Nancy Grace is on Fox, that is a major cable network.
You generally don't find cracker accents on more establishment network news like NBC and CBS.

Are you now going to get anti-American here?Now?! You clearly haven't read my thread "Why I believe in God" over in the Global Forum - http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... php?t=7816 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7816)
We beat you in our last war and the Argies are right.

[cottmann]

Japan is one country.
Nancy Grace is on Fox, that is a major cable network.
You generally don't find cracker accents on more establishment network news like NBC and CBS.

With regard to Japan, I agree it is only one country, but I know that in South Korea and The Philippines I would equally have no trouble finding non-Hollywood alternatives
I said nothing about Nancy Grace - whoever she is - in any of my postings, not about "cracker accents."





Are you now going to get anti-American here?Now?! You clearly haven't read my thread "Why I believe in God" over in the Global Forum - http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... php?t=7816 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7816)
We beat you in our last war and the Argies are right.

If you are referring to the War of 1812 between the USA and the UK, then historians generally agree that there were no clear winners, only a clear loser - Native Americans.

I understand that inhabitants of the Falkland Islands also refer to the Argentinians as "Argie pirates," but I really fail to see what that has to do with whether or not British-English or American-English is the most internationally-used form of English. I do know for a fact, however, that there are a large number of British-English primary/elementary and secondary/high schools in Argentina, particularly in Buenos Aires, teaching national, international and/or the UK curriculum but only one major American school teaching a US curriculum. The wealthy upper classes in The Argentine clearly know what is best for their children.

More likely the Argie blue bloods think it has more snob appeal to have a Limey accent.
Where else is POLO the national sport?

More likely the Argie blue bloods think it has more snob appeal to have a Limey accent.
Where else is POLO the national sport?And no prizes for guessing the country that always wins any gridiron or for that matter baseball world championship. What does that prove?

More likely the Argie blue bloods think it has more snob appeal to have a Limey accent.
Where else is POLO the national sport?And no prizes for guessing the country that always wins any gridiron or for that matter baseball world championship. What does that prove?
That for bizarre historical reasons, Argenina looks to Europe, not the USA.

amelican is amelican and ingrish is ingrish - neither works on spel chek

That for bizarre historical reasons, Argenina looks to Europe, not the USA.They may be bizarre to you but I'd have thought things like language, culture, plain good taste and a disdain for vulgar Americans (a tautology there) had some influence

Yes, all Americans are vulgar.
Next!
Time for another nice biscuit.

[cottmann]

More likely the Argie blue bloods think it has more snob appeal to have a Limey accent.
Where else is POLO the national sport?And no prizes for guessing the country that always wins any gridiron or for that matter baseball world championship. What does that prove?

Where is Polo a national sport? I am not sure, but Wikipedia, Thaiquila, states that "Polo is, however, played professionally in only a few countries, notably Argentina, England, Pakistan, India, AND THE UNITED STATES." My emphasis! It also states: "The U.S. is UNIQUE in possessing a professional women's polo league, the United States Women's Polo Federation, which was founded in 2000. The sixteen-team league plays across the country." Again, my emphasis.

I believe that the USA hosted - and lost - the First World Baseball Championship in March of this year, held in San Diego, California. Japan beat Cuba 10тАУ6 to win the final. The USA did not make it out of the second round - and I believe that the Cubans were all amateurs. There was considerable suspicion that the event was rigged to favour the USA - timing of events, location, choice of referees, etc (according to the Mainichi Shimbun).

Polo has a tiny following in the US relative to the population and is not sonsidered an American sport like baseball.
It is a way of life in Argentina, truly an important part of the culture (well, for the rich anyway).

It is a way of life in Argentina, truly an important part of the culture (well, for the rich anyway).And we don't care about the poor

It is a way of life in Argentina, truly an important part of the culture (well, for the rich anyway).And we don't care about the poor
We don't?
The point is polo, an elitist sport, is deeply ingrained with the Argentinian identity, right up there with beef, mate, and feeling isolated from Europe.

[cottmann]

It is a way of life in Argentina, truly an important part of the culture (well, for the rich anyway).And we don't care about the poor
We don't?
The point is polo, an elitist sport, is deeply ingrained with the Argentinian identity, right up there with beef, mate, and feeling isolated from Europe.

Wikipedia - from which Thaiquila earlier quoted as an authoritative source - notes that polo is not the Argentinian national sport:

"Argentines are extremely involved in sports. F├║tbol (soccer) is more of a national obsession than a game. Argentina won the World Cup in 1978 and 1986 and the gold medal at the 2004 Summer Olympics for men's soccer, and the exploits of Diego Maradona have kept fans, paparazzi and columnists busy for the past 20 years. Tennis, rugby and field hockey are also important and Argentina won gold at the 2004 Summer Olympics in Athens for men's basketball. The great Formula One driver, Juan Manuel Fangio was Argentinian. The rich, heavily influenced by English customs, have traditionally enjoyed polo and Argentina dominates this sport. During recent times, international polo player Adolfo Cambiasso has tried to get the middle and lower class of Argentina closer to polo. To do so he has adopted several football traditions to polo, like celebrating goals and the like. Cambiasso's strategy had a kind of success when different football fans went to see the final of the Argentinean Open. This has been critiziced by the rich class of course.
The official national sport of Argentina, though rarely played, is the polo-like pato."

It does not mention baseball, though there are several clubs and leagues, including Little League.

Interestingly, a number of baseball-related websites note that baseball is an American version of an English game called
Rounders, despite the Doubleday mythic origins, e.g., http://www.thebaseballpage.com/features ... rigins.htm (http://www.thebaseballpage.com/features/2001/origins/origins.htm) and http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/e-hist-1.html. Doubleday is sort of the Noah Webster of Rounders, it appears.

Yes, we agree Polo is very important in Argentina, and it is largely associated with the rich there.
Of course, futball is more widely played and watched, there are a lot more poor people than rich people, like anywhere.
This is getting ridiculous. Let's all continue to speak and write in English and think bad things of each other (Americans are vulgar, Brits are snobs), OK?

[cottmann]

....This is getting ridiculous. Let's all continue to speak and write in English and think bad things of each other (Americans are vulgar, Brits are snobs), OK?

I don't know about the first - I was rather enjoying the exchange of ideas and thoughts, which is one of the ways to learn about others. With regard to thinking bad things of each other, I have to plead "not guilty" on that score - except for one member of this Board who is on my "Ignore" list and he is neither American nor British. But then, I think he is the one person who trips many others' "Ignore" finger too.

gone a little off topic but has been hugely entertaining. Just to clarify:

Americans are vulgar
Brits are snobs
Argentinians are wanna be Europeans
Irish are thick
Scots are mean
Austrians are condescending
French are aloof
Russians are criminals
Australians are drunks
Spaniards are greasy
etc

Why is it that Italians are great lovers?

Infact, travelling to various countries I have found that most people are just doownright 'nice' an awful word but apt. Pleasant company, welcoming, friendly and easy to chat with as long as you avoid subjects like politics, religion, sexuality and economics.

[Aunty]

Well the 60,000 - 70,000 young Chinese (most from the mainland) that are in private English Language Schools here in New Zealand at any one time are taught British English. There are also quite a few from Korea, Taiwan, Japan and Latin America. Most of them are sufficiently educated to be aware of the difference between American English and British English (which by the way they do see as very small). Of the ones I've engaged in intercourse, many chose to come here to learn British English. They see that as native or 'correct' English and having higher status than American English. Plus too they realise that if they learn British English they'll also understand American English with no problems. Of course living in this part of the world they'll also learn Kiwi English, which is very similar to Aussie English but there are differences. So does one English really dominate the world? I would say not. I think it really depends on where you live. That determines more than anything else which Englsih is spoken.

I know from comments my Japanese friends and lovers have told me over the years is that the upper-class and aristocrats of Japan speak only British English, and they try to do so with an upper class English accent. Separates them out from the ordinary chattering classes. How very Japanese. How very Englsih.

That for bizarre historical reasons, Argenina looks to Europe, not the USA.

Perhaps zis ist bekause zo many Europeans had to fled to ze Argentine to escape ze Amerikan oppressors in 1945,

[Smiles]

I think it was some fat bald old guy who wryly observed recently that any thread which goes beyond 3 pages inevitably morphs itself into a stream of thought so far away from the original topic that it becomes completely unrecognizable.

Boy, this thread (now 5 pages long in my settings) confirms the his observations without question (he's my HERO!) . . . rolling inexorably down Boredom Hill.

Cheers ...

So people who want snob appeal learn British English. The masses are happy with American English.

I think it was some fat bald old guy who wryly observed recently that any thread which goes beyond 3 pages inevitably morphs itself into a stream of thought so far away from the original topic that it becomes completely unrecognizable.
Boy, this thread (now 5 pages long in my settings) confirms the his observations without question (he's my HERO!) . . . rolling inexorably down Boredom Hill.

Dear Smiles;
Even though it ran off the rails on the first page; please don't take your little gun--And shoot this thread!
I love it so!

Quick count; (Sorry, I may have missed a few. Hate to leave anyone out.) it went from Tipping to:
Trolls
(back to) Tipping (Isn't Troll-tipping a favorite sport in Bavaria?)
& on...and on...and on...through:
American (Bashing)
Argentina
Arizona
Australia\Australian\Australians
Baseball
Bigotry (On this board.)
Chinese
Disney World - Japan
Doormen
English Language(s)
Europe
Fat, Bald Old C...s, Men, etc.
Fotbol\Football
Japan
Massage
Movies: Other than Hollywood
Movies: Hollywood
Nazis
Neddies Nook
New Zealand
Petrol\Gasoline
Polo
Posting Quotes
Snob Appeal (Certainly none here.)
Spelling\Spelling variations
Stereotypes
Television\Nancy Grace (Who the hell's he?...)
Thailand (Thailand!...How the hell did that happen?!)
(The) Rich
(The) Poor
Vulgar Americans vs. Vulgar Brits--I think the Brits win the 'Miss Most Vulgar' crown, bad teeth and all.

And it's still ticking!
Can't we pick up the thread that started with a rash, went through all the STD's in the world--And some from outer space--(Including cod-rot.) and, as of last time I checked, was on circumcision--And dump it in here too?
If not; lets talk about how much to tip the boys! Oops!...That's back on the original topic: Tipping...Can't have that!
So let's swap recipies!...

I remember in the late eighties, I made the mistake of getting on the Marunochi line in the middle of rush hour. I happened to notice that the silver-haired sarrariman pressed up against me was wearing an "Old Etonian" tie.

"I see you schooled at Eton" quoth I.

"No. Fashion" quoth he.

Looking around there was a fair smattering of Wykhamists and Harrovians.

Charlatan's and liars all of them! But polite charlatans and liars.

No wonder they need to learn the Queen's Ingrish.

anno.... ssssss

[bigben]

I have my opinion of a troll

Those who hijack threads and those who continue with the hijacked thread.

If you excuse your behavior before the hijack, perhaps you would be forgiven.

Otherwise you are guilty.

Tips are a personal thing. But personally I dislike the tourists who have money to throw around because it makes the rest of us look like cheap charlies.

And as someone else mentioned, when you are giving 100 baht notes to everyone you contact, some Thais think you are showing off the fact that you have lots of money even though they wai you and thank you for the 100 baht note.

Nevertheless, Tip what you feel is fair, after all it is your money.