Violence in red shirt protests: Why do some farang deny it?

[Beachlover]

I've noticed an illogical phenomenon occurring on some boards.

There are some real die-hard farang supporters of the RED SHIRTS who support the cause entirely. The red shirts do have some legitimate aims so this is acceptable to a degree, except their support of the red shirts gets a bit extreme...

It gets EXTREME to the point of them throwing all rational logic out the window.

These farangs are such extreme supporters of the red shirts, they deny, fail to accept and/or avoid acknowledging that the 2010 red shirt protesters were VIOLENT.

Mention it and they suddenly get very angry, attack you, call you a liar, label your stated facts "inaccurate" and throw all kinds of shite at you. It's like you've questioned their God! (Another irrational belief set).

They don't want to hear about the fact that the protesters became violent and committed violent acts prior to 9 April. They prefer to ignore the fact that some red shirt protesters were armed with lethal firearms - assault rifles, fragmentation grenades and 40mm grenade launchers - which they deliberately used. They are upset by the mere mention of the fact that red shirt protesters were responsible for the murder of a number of Thai soldiers and and the targeting of civilian bystanders during the events.

My stance on this is you need to take the bad with the good. If you do support the red shirts, why POLLUTE your argument by being so illogical and dishonest as to deny plain proven facts? You can try to JUSTIFY the violence and destruction but you can't DENY it was committed by your beloved red shirt protesters.

What do you think? Are they nuts? Irrational? Or do YOU believe the red shirt protesters weren't violent last year too? :rolling:

(N.B. I don't support either of the two main sides). :happy7:

[Narakmak]

I think they are irrational. Yes. I

[joe552]

Beachie, I can't seem to find your condemnation of the yellow shirt blockade of the airport at BKK a couple of years ago. For someone who claims not to support either side, your post is rather one sided.

My understanding of last year's events is that 96 people were killed - most by the Thai military. Certainly, there were 'armed elements' operating in opposition to the army, but to believe that the vast majority of the people who camped out in Bangkok were armed militants is ridiculous.

I can only go on what I've read (same for you) - so I suggest you read a little more widely before taking sides (or not, as you suggest in your last line).

[gaymandenmark]

joe I am sure we have all been reading
may I suggest this:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/98399/section/2
There will be blood on the street if the government does not call off the dispersal operations. Our patience is running out. We will take more serious measures to retaliate. The dark sky will turn red, red like blood."

--Jatuporn Prompan, Red Shirt leader, Bangkok, April 10, 2010

Or read the full report.
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/98399/section/1

[joe552]

Thanks for posting that link - I certainly intend to read the HRW report. But quoting one sentence from it is hardly 'fair comment'. Maybe Beachlover will read the report too, and come back with a different question?

[cdnmatt]

Wouldn't worry about what a bunch of farangs think. Would be more worried about all the voting Thais who believe Thaksin is God, and there's millions of them. From what I've witnessed, they seem to have a huge disconnect with the current reality of the world. All they know is everything was better like 8 years ago when Thaksin was in power. Food and gas were cheaper, inflation was lower, etc.

So many (majority?) of them believe if they vote red shirt, they'll get Thaksin back in Thailand, and everything will be good again like it was before. I tried explaining to them that they shouldn't expect that, but as usual, was just met with deer in the headlight stares. Food is still going to be the same price as it is now, regardless of who wins the election, for example.

[adman5000]

When I was visiting Thailand earlier this year I visited the art museum near MBK. At that time they had a photo exhibit on the recent political violence that had occurred. I enjoyed reading the English translation of the explanation behind what happened and found it helpful to learn beyond the reporting of the mainstream media. The perspective was similar to what is contained in the Crisis Group Asia Report. I think it is useful to have a balanced perspective.

Mention it and they suddenly get very angry, attack you, call you a liar, label your stated facts "inaccurate" and throw all kinds of shite at you. It's like you've questioned their God! (Another irrational belief set).No different to Ju-liar Gillard and Mr Rabbit here in Australia why do you think Thailand would be any different?

[stevehadders]

I think half the problem - is that some farangs listen just to waht they hear in bars, or what a one sided Thai friend may tell them, without taking time to read up and form their own opinion. Happens throughout the world :dontknow: !

[newalaan]

I've noticed an illogical phenomenon occurring on some boardsWhat is more illogical is that any foreigner would either want or feel the need to be involved in or try to understand what Thai politics is about anyway.

It simply is not for foreigers to be involved in, whether they visit or live full time. It has nothing to do with farangs or westerners, they cannot vote so what is the point?

Normal, general thai traits are difficult enough to understand or come to terms with, god only knows why any foreigner would want to try and fathom politics. The thais i know either don't care themselves or have no idea what its about apart from the control of the easy money pot, so why foreigners feel what they have to say has any significance is beyond me. keep out of it altogether would be the best advice.

You just have to put up with or work round whatever the outcome is anyway.

[netrix]

It simply is not for foreigers to be involved in.

OK, so with that reasoning, then what about any foreign interest in the Khmer Rouge regime of Cambodia,
or what has recently gone on in Myanmar? pick an area of the globe. the turmoil in the middle east,
or the economy in greece, or the natural disasters and nuclear meltdowns and harsh poverty around
the world. if you can't vote, then it doesn't matter? if you can't vote do you think you can't make a
difference? and if you're just advocating apathy, then what gives you the right to visit or live freely
in those places you have so little interest in?


Mention it and they suddenly get very angry, attack you, call you a liar, label your stated facts "inaccurate" and throw all kinds of shite at you. It's like you've questioned their God! (Another irrational belief set).

like the "Tea Party" right wing nut jobs in the USA. there's no logical explanation.
every single one of my Thai friends with any education at all is against the redshirts. and I'm friends
with very few "poor village - money boy" types. if you can read and have a brain, you're not a fan
of toxin and his antics. if you're poor, you love him because you think he wants to help you. and
if you're a clueless sexpat lusting after teenage hookers, you believe whatever your trick of the day
believes.

[Dodger]

Violence in Red Shirt Protests: Why do some farang deny this?

It could be due to the fact that the real violence which ocurred at the BKK protests in April 2010 was substantiated as being insighted by armed militants recruited and paid by none other than Thaksin for the purpose of escalating the event. As we all know, this level of violence is what turned the tide on the protest as the real red shirts dropped their shirts by the road and went back to their farm work. Thus, a failed attempt by Thaksin.

I find the blue shirt movement interesting - as they seem to realize that the red shirt supporters are nothing more than simple farmers who are ignorant of the politics surrounding their own goverment and will support anyone who tosses them a few bucks - as of course Thaksin did when in office. They also view the yellow shirts as an equally incapable government structure - just as incapable and corrupt as the Thaksin administration.

Unfortunately, the blue shirts are lacking the finacial backing that both the red shirts and yellow shirts enjoy.

The upcoming election should be a real circus.

[gaymandenmark]

like the "Tea Party" right wing nut jobs in the USA. there's no logical explanation.
every single one of my Thai friends with any education at all is against the redshirts. and I'm friends
with very few "poor village - money boy" types. if you can read and have a brain, you're not a fan
of toxin and his antics. if you're poor, you love him because you think he wants to help you. and
if you're a clueless sexpat lusting after teenage hookers, you believe whatever your trick of the day
believes.

That is well written, and somehow some of the red supporters, think they are leftist and progressive, because of the colour.

What people forget is that, when it comes to bottom of the line, sadly thai politics is mostly a fight between two different elite classes. I wish it was not like that.

I think many of the reds have some very legitimate wishes for a better life for the poor and the lower middle classes.
But in the end the Shinawatras will not give a shit, what they are doing is only about the family fortune. And then add that Thaksin in my view is a big big crook.

Netrix you are correct that many farangs do learn about Thailand and thai politics in the bars and from bar boys and uneducated people, but I disagree that not educated people are stupied. I have and will always have friends who are both educated and not educated. One of them grew up in a very poor village, not educated and he has also been a moneyboy. He is, in his mid 30's, the smartest and most clever guy I have ever met, and he do not vote for the Thaksins. In fact he despise him and his family. *

[cdnmatt]

I think many of the reds have some very legitimate wishes for a better life for the poor and the lower middle classes.

Honestly, I don't really know what more the government can do to help Issan folk. I understand they want cheaper gas, more money for their rice crops, and so on. Those are all legitimate claims, but by and large, out of the government's control. Same goes for every country. They currently enjoy free health care (ok, 30 baht health care), free education with nice schools everywhere, loads of programs for grants and even free secondary schooling, and so on.

All the infrastructure, opportunity, and money is here for them, but the poor class simply don't give a shit. They just want a handout. I don't think there's much the government can do, and the only way Issan folk are getting out of poverty is by changing their social constructs, wherein lies the problem. For one of many examples, ambition is frowned upon, because ambition breeds greed, and greed is a big no-no in Buddhism. They complain they want a better life, but they're not willing to change their lifestyles or ethics in order to have one, and it's just not going to work. Education isn't the answer, because it's already here, but doesn't matter if nobody including the parents give a shit about it.

This isn't a problem the government can solve, and only the Issan folk can do that for themselves. Really, just like in Canada, you can be an uneducated, hard working, intelligent individual, and quite easily make a good life for yourself in Issan. Without question. It'll take several years of 16 hour days, but all of us Westerner's do that.

[Beachlover]

Some interesting and well articulated views in this thread... thanks, guys.


Beachie, I can't seem to find your condemnation of the yellow shirt blockade of the airport at BKK a couple of years ago.
That's only because you didn't look! I was just as scathing of the yellow shirts as I was of the red shirt protest behaviour.

Here's just one example: gay-thailand-f9/calculating-the-cost-pad-for-each-thai-citizen-t16521.html (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand-f9/calculating-the-cost-pad-for-each-thai-citizen-t16521.html)

Actually, the reason I followed both protests closely, is they both came very close to trips that I had planned (which included visiting Thailand) at the time. Very lucky to just miss them both times.


My understanding of last year's events is that 96 people were killed - most by the Thai military. Certainly, there were 'armed elements' operating in opposition to the army, but to believe that the vast majority of the people who camped out in Bangkok were armed militants is ridiculous.
1. That's like saying most gun-waving bank robbers are killed by the police or armed security. There is such a thing as a justified killing (though I'm sure there were some cases of negligence or ill-discipline and not all killings were justified [or investigated properly] in this case).

2. No one's saying "the vast majority of the people who camped out in Bangkok were armed militants". But I believe they were aware of armed militants. By participating, they facilitated the armed militants.

In an army, only a minority of personnel are actually front line troops. In a terrorist organisation, only a small portion will physically carry out the violent acts undertaken to achieve their aims. Only a small number of protesters needed to be armed to escalate the threat level and turn things deadly for both the soldiers and protesters.


what is contained in the Crisis Group Asia Report. I think it is useful to have a balanced perspective.
Thanks. Interesting... Even that acknowledges what some of the irrationally and dishonestly extremist farang red supporters won't.

From the exec summary of it:

To the Red Shirt leaders:

11. Ensure your followers strictly adhere to non-violent principles in all their future activities.

12. Reject the presence of armed elements in your ranks and condemn any violent acts, even if they are claimed to be for the purpose of protecting supporters.


What people forget is that, when it comes to bottom of the line, sadly thai politics is mostly a fight between two different elite classes. I wish it was not like that... I think many of the reds have some very legitimate wishes for a better life for the poor and the lower middle classes.
I think you're right.

It's basically supporting the replacement of one flawed/corrupt government with another, just as flawed/corrupt government. In away it's also supporting the use of violence to bring about that change...

[Beachlover]

All the discussion on who's cause is more worthy etc. is great, but the main focus of this thread is on EXTREMIST FARANG RED SHIRT SUPPORTERS (that should've been the headline). Not so much to attack the red shirts themselves.


read the full report.
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/98399/section/1
Thanks, Gaymandenmark. This Human Rights Watch report you linked to is probably the most fair and balanced account of what happened. It points out wrong doings on both sides from multiple witness reports.

When I pointed out excerpts of this report on another forum, most of the farang there (extremist supporters of red shirts) refused to acknowledge aspects going against the red shirts. At the same time, they glossed over the heavily biased and perceptually skewed Robert Amsterdam Report, which was paid for by Thaksin.

On another forum, I used the HRH report to point out some factually incorrect points made by members. They either went silent or refused to accept the corrections, labeled my stated facts "inaccurate" and proceeded to lecture me on Thailand's political history (which while relevant, doesn't change what did and didn't happen during the protests).

So how do farangs become such extremists in their support of the red shirts? So extreme that they will deny credibly reported truths? Are these people just stupid?

No protest can claim to be peaceful when its participants are armed, carry out raids on hospitals and large scale arson (and more), under its leaders' orders.

You may support them for whatever reason but when you irrationally refuse to accept clear black/white facts and attack others for pointing them out, you pollute your opinion and cause. If you want to give the red shirts whole hearted support, accept the good and the bad. Don't blindly deny the bad. That's just pathetic and demonstrates lack of integrity and respect for the truth.


there's no logical explanation... if you're a clueless sexpat lusting after teenage hookers, you believe whatever your trick of the day believes.
Hahaha... Thanks. Totally suspect that may be the reason. :rolling: