Officials discuss when a work permit is required

[Beachlover]

Found this interesting ThaiVisa article on Baht-Stop about foreigners working in Thailand.

It's from a seminar where officials from the local labour office were interviewed over when and under what circumstances work permits were required by foreigners.

It's interesting but some of it still sounds vague...

From: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473 ... ent-talks/ (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473613-working-legally-in-thailand-immigration-and-labour-department-talks/)

This is the legal definition of work they use:

the legal definition of work that is used by the Labor Department; "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits".

Additionally Khun Rhuchuchai pointed out that beyond the application, is the intent. If itтАЩs clear there is intent to work with a goal to profit from that labor, either on the part of the foreigner or of the business, then that is also illegal.

This seems to take care of establishments like The Venue who get overseas performers in sometimes:

A key question that was asked was in regard to performers who wish to perform a one off show for charity or otherwise. He said there is a temporary permit to work for not longer than 15 days, free from his office and considered on a case by case basis. But, he pointed out several times, you must apply for it. He reiterated that he supports those who wish to perform legally, and will be happy to approve such applications for these kinds of shows once applied for and considered on a case by case basis. Anything over the 15 days requires a legal work permit, which requires a sponsoring business or charitable organization.

Volunteer work:

Volunteer work, he pointed out, requires a work permit, however, many charities are looking for volunteers and are willing to sponsor people and he suggested that he could offer guidance to those interested in such a work permit. For those who wish to work at multiple organizations, he pointed out that that initial work permit is required but it is possible to add an employer or job to the work permit once its issued. This would also apply to musicians who wish to play at different venues.

He noted that the office offers different periods of work permits, from a year for 3,100 baht to 6 months for 1,550 baht and 1-3 months for 750 baht.

Freelance work (some posters on ThaiVisa dispute this):

He added that there is no тАЬfreelanceтАЭ work permit, that one must be sponsored by a company.

This seems to allude to "specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets":

when asked about specialists offering advice for overseas clients in overseas markets, he felt that so long as they did not offer that advice to Thais or foreigners in Thailand that would be acceptable.
This is interesting. When I visit Thailand, I usually continue managing the work of my staff (in Australia) and doing work for Australian clients. I do this remotely, from my laptop. I don't think this is much different from thousands of other executives who action their e-mails and keep in touch with their office while holidaying in Thailand.

It brings up a few questions...

Can I assume he's referring to specialists located INSIDE Thailand "offering advice for overseas clients" or is that incorrect?

What is the significance of the specific wording "offering advice". Advisory is part of what I do for clients but there's a lot of document generation and such too. Does the policy he describes distinguish between the two or does it refer to any sort of knowledge work?

I wonder if his comment basically applies for any tourists who does work for overseas clients (no involvement of local labour or local clients whatsoever) while in Thailand. Where is the line drawn?

I'm not too bothered as I'm only ever in Thailand for short periods of time - sometimes less than week, occasionally up to 2-3 weeks - but it's nice to know where you stand.

I'm guessing this is what small businesses do:

A company started by a Thai person and employing and paying social security for 4 Thai employees can offer one work permit for a foreigner without needing the required 2 million baht in registered capital.

Read all: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473 ... ent-talks/ (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473613-working-legally-in-thailand-immigration-and-labour-department-talks/)

[netrix]

i've looked into this quite a bit. i travel a lot and speak in business
seminars with local attendees throughout SE Asia and am required
to have a visa and short term work permit when travelling for business.
But when I telecommute, as many do, and neither my employees/partners
nor my clients are in Thailand, and my business is not based in Thailand
then no permit is required. If your business is profiting from being
physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they
rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave
away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need
a permit in Thailand.

Hi,

You can produce as many documents as you like in Thailand, it does not matter. If you end up on their radar and they want something from you, any and all arguments will be rebuffed and documentation will be discarded and/or ignored.

Always better to come to an accommodation with them where everyone is happy, especially them, be it having your work permit organised by an offshoot company or friend of the Immigration officer or by some other means.

The very last thing you want to be doing with Immigaration, and this applies to everybody, is to quote law or turn up with a lawyer and get their back up. It doesn't matter to them what regulations appear on websites or in some press release from Bangkok.

They are a law unto themselves and always have been.

..I could slave
away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need
a permit in Thailand.

Surely you can only work at sex chat for a few hours at a time before either laryngitis or white-finger syndrome sets in?

:sign5:

The very last thing you want to be doing with Immigaration, and this applies to everybody, is to quote law or turn up with a lawyer and get their back up. It doesn't matter to them what regulations appear on websites or in some press release from Bangkok.

I have always been to immigration with my lawyer and he has been excellent at smoothing the path.
He knows many of the officials, knows the procedures, fills in the forms for me, jumps the queue, translates the official documents, hands over the money and gets the job done in one tenth of the time it would take me on my own.
I just sit there and he does what he's paid for. I would never consider going to immigration without the lawyer.

The very last thing you want to be doing with Immigaration, and this applies to everybody, is to quote law or turn up with a lawyer and get their back up. It doesn't matter to them what regulations appear on websites or in some press release from Bangkok.

I have always been to immigration with my lawyer and he has been excellent at smoothing the path.
He knows many of the officials, knows the procedures, fills in the forms for me, jumps the queue, translates the official documents, hands over the money and gets the job done in one tenth of the time it would take me on my own.
I just sit there and he does what he's paid for. I would never consider going to immigration without the lawyer.


OK then,

I was actually referring to people who had an issue or a problem thinking they could march down with a lawyer, not unusual in democratic Countries, and get their legal rights or resolve a problem created for them by Immigration by showing law books or quoting rules and regulations.

For example, attempting to challenge them, as some do, just because you have right on your side. The main problem is the sweeping and wide ranging powers they have, which are cloaked in ambiguity.

I wan't referring to ' run of the mill ' stuff, if I didn't make that point clear.

[thonglor55]

I wasn't referring to ' run of the mill ' stuff, if I didn't make that point clear.It was abundantly clear to me but there's always someone who wants to quote their own experience and run off at the mouth as if what they're saying is germane to what you're writing about. My reading of the article was that if they wish the Immigration authorities will apply a very broad brush - if you are working and you are in Thailand then you need a work permit. There is no nexus required between the work being done, the location of the customer, and being in Thailand. You just have to be in Thailand, and you have to be actively (ie. working, not through investments) producing an income. What those who spout about "I'd just go to Immigration with my lawyer and he'd sort them out" macho approach don't realise is that the rule of law doesn't apply in Thailand as a matter of course. It's how the particular official decides on the day (based on who knows what - his indigestion maybe or whether his wife or girlfriend put out the night before, or his xenophobia about foreigners, or the clothes you're wearing or whether your bribe (sorry, tea money) is big enough, or whether he's being bloody minded just for the hell of it), whether the rules apply, how they apply, and when they apply. If you don't "get" that then you simply don't understand Thailand.

Moreover, the article confirms, if you pursue an activity in Thailand that could be deemed to be working even though you receive no money or other benefit, you must have a permit. This includes activities as varied as helping out at an AIDS hospice, teaching English to street kids, playing the piano for a singalong in the bar, or throwing on a frock and appearing on stage. Given the hostility or envy of some people towards others, always assume that some kind soul will bring your activities to the notice of the Immigration Department.

[Beachlover]

But when I telecommute, as many do, and neither my employees/partners nor my clients are in Thailand, and my business is not based in Thailand then no permit is required. If your business is profiting from being physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need a permit in Thailand.
That's awesome. Thanks for confirming this, Netrix... nice to have it from someone who's looked into it more.


You can produce as many documents as you like in Thailand, it does not matter. If you end up on their radar and they want something from you, any and all arguments will be rebuffed and documentation will be discarded and/or ignored... They are a law unto themselves and always have been.
Yes, as is the case in many developing countries with uncertain legal frameworks - if you piss off the wrong people or someone's having a bad day it can work against you.

[thonglor55]

But when I telecommute, as many do, and neither my employees/partners nor my clients are in Thailand, and my business is not based in Thailand then no permit is required. If your business is profiting from being physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need a permit in Thailand.That's awesome. Thanks for confirming this, Netrix... nice to have it from someone who's looked into it more. And doesn't know what they're talking about - but that's never stopped Beachlover either.

I wasn't referring to ' run of the mill ' stuff, if I didn't make that point clear.It was abundantly clear to me but there's always someone who wants to quote their own experience and run off at the mouth as if what they're saying is germane to what you're writing about. My reading of the article was that if they wish the Immigration authorities will apply a very broad brush - if you are working and you are in Thailand then you need a work permit. There is no nexus required between the work being done, the location of the customer, and being in Thailand. You just have to be in Thailand, and you have to be actively (ie. working, not through investments) producing an income. What those who spout about "I'd just go to Immigration with my lawyer and he'd sort them out" macho approach don't realise is that the rule of law doesn't apply in Thailand as a matter of course. It's how the particular official decides on the day (based on who knows what - his indigestion maybe or whether his wife or girlfriend put out the night before, or his xenophobia about foreigners, or the clothes you're wearing or whether your bribe (sorry, tea money) is big enough, or whether he's being bloody minded just for the hell of it), whether the rules apply, how they apply, and when they apply. If you don't "get" that then you simply don't understand Thailand.

Moreover, the article confirms, if you pursue an activity in Thailand that could be deemed to be working even though you receive no money or other benefit, you must have a permit. This includes activities as varied as helping out at an AIDS hospice, teaching English to street kids, playing the piano for a singalong in the bar, or throwing on a frock and appearing on stage. Given the hostility or envy of some people towards others, always assume that some kind soul will bring your activities to the notice of the Immigration Department.

Hi,


Absolutely spot on what I was trying to get across.

[Hmmm]

Where is the line drawn?

The line is drawn at their radar. So stay off it and you're fine. That way you don't have to rely on some official's interpretation of the law.

There are people who run one-man internet based businesses from Thailand, or telecommute for international companies who don't care where their employees are physically based, without a work permit. But the clever ones don't work from somewhere that looks like an office, they don't employ anyone in Thailand, they don't do any business banking in Thailand, they don't send / receive shipments of commercial goods, and they don't tell anyone what they're doing.

If you're really worried that someone might be snooping on your email / web activities in Thailand (as authorities do), use VPN, Tor, etc.

[thonglor55]

.... and they don't tell anyone what they're doing.Forget that at your peril!

[netrix]

.... and they don't tell anyone what they're doing.Forget that at your peril!

by the way, i'm not doing anything. i was, um... just kidding.

[thonglor55]

.... and they don't tell anyone what they're doing.Forget that at your peril!By the way, i'm not doing anything. i was, um... just kidding.Looking at your childish avatar that is not hard to believe.

One of the most basic rules is never post anything that could identify you and/or be used against you on SGT or any other forum.

In their personal efforts to escape harassment/prosecution/imprisonment/deportation, you'd be amazed how co-operative certain individuals can be with the "authorities".

:occasion9:

[netrix]

Looking at your childish avatar that is not hard to believe.

have you seen your avatar? sheesh. :tongue3:

One of the most basic rules is never post anything that could identify you and/or be used against you on SGT or any other forum.

In their personal efforts to escape harassment/prosecution/imprisonment/deportation, you'd be amazed how co-operative certain individuals can be with the "authorities".

:occasion9:


Scotty,

It's the only Country and set of people I know that run and tell the authorities when there is no reward or gain, except the fact they have made another persons life a misery. That includes the Foreigners and ex pats in Thailand.

However, there are certain individuals who instead of having to hand over bribes and cash, prefer to hand over a fellow national (by giving the BIB information) when they know that their prey may have been slightly misbehaving, allowing the Police to extort from the victim as opposed to asking them for funds.

The rule of thumb being, there's always new punters and spenders coming through the ranks, so letting one go to the sharks is just the way it works in their murky world.

However, there are certain individuals who instead of having to hand over bribes and cash, prefer to hand over a fellow national (by giving the BIB information) when they know that their prey may have been slightly misbehaving, allowing the Police to extort from the victim as opposed to asking them for funds.

A recent example reported here:

http://pattayatoday.net/news/news-from-around-pattaya/farang-spy-busts-farang/

However, there are certain individuals who instead of having to hand over bribes and cash, prefer to hand over a fellow national (by giving the BIB information) when they know that their prey may have been slightly misbehaving, allowing the Police to extort from the victim as opposed to asking them for funds.

A recent example reported here:

http://pattayatoday.net/news/news-from-around-pattaya/farang-spy-busts-farang/


Exactly!!!.................My God, just shows you doesn't it!! ..... :evil4:

[thonglor55]

Looking at your childish avatar that is not hard to believe.have you seen your avatar? sheesh.I use the default one supplied which changes from time to time if I don't choose one for myself. Drawing attention to myself via an avatar I had selected would be extremely vulgar.

[netrix]

Looking at your childish avatar that is not hard to believe.have you seen your avatar? sheesh.I use the default one supplied which changes from time to time if I don't choose one for myself. Drawing attention to myself via an avatar I had selected would be extremely vulgar.

well, on the post you made about my avatar being "childish" -- yours was a pacifier.
that's beyond childish, it's infantile. and if you're accusing me of being vulgar for
having an avatar of my own choice then i guess i'm in good company, or bad company
as it were. vulgar? really?? have you read this forum??? sheesh again.

"To people who accuse me of being vulgar, I say Screw You!"

Mel Brooks

[thonglor55]

well, on the post you made about my avatar being "childish" -- yours was a pacifier. that's beyond childish, it's infantile. and if you're accusing me of being vulgar for having an avatar of my own choice then i guess i'm in good company, or bad company as it were. vulgar? really?? have you read this forum??? sheesh again.Oh dear - have I touched a tender point? I must remember that. :idea:

[Dboy]

If your business is profiting from being
physically in Thailand and/or your revenue comes from Thailand, they
rightfully want you to have permits, pay taxes, etc. I could slave
away on the computer and phone 24 hours a day and would not need
a permit in Thailand.

Thanks very much! I have looked into this, and reached a similar conclusion, but thanks for stating clearly. I think this is correct. Kevin is ALSO right of course, it ultimately doesn't really matter what the law says.

Dboy

[cdnmatt]

The law states, "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits", which pretty much covers everyone and everything. Did you login to Edward Jones to check your stock portfolio from Thailand? Technically, breaking the law!

I think they write laws this vague to simply give police power to do as they wish.

[thonglor55]

I think they write laws this vague to simply give police power to do as they wish.You don't say!

[Beachlover]

Apparently the regulations for work permits and foreigners working in Thailand are being relaxed...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/eco ... egulations (http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/economics/255161/working-rules-relaxed-by-change-in-regulations)

Working rules relaxed by change in regulations
Published: 6/09/2011 at 12:00 AM

In the past, only foreigners who were employed by a Thai company could apply for work permits. However, on June 13 this year the regulations for obtaining work permits changed and the following conditions apply:

- A foreigner who is employed by an offshore company can obtain a work permit in Thailand under the offshore company's name, subject to certain conditions. (Note that this may create a corporate tax problem for the offshore company creating a "permanent establishment" and subjecting it to Thai corporate income tax.)

- A foreigner who is self-employed or is an independent service provider can obtain a work permit in Thailand, subject to conditions.

- A foreigner will be able to personally obtain an urgent work permit from the Department of Labour at Suvarnabhumi Airport 24 hours, seven days a week before starting work or attending a meeting or seminar in Thailand.

- A foreigner who is employed by a Thai company can obtain a work permit from the Department of Labour in the area in which the company is located.

- There will no longer be pre-approval for work permits for foreigners who have not yet entered Thailand; the Department of Labour will issue a document acknowledging receipt of a request for pre-approval for a work permit so that a non-immigrant category "B" business visa can be obtained from the Royal Thai Embassy.

Although the Alien Working Act has been revised to make it easier for foreigners to work in Thailand, the immigration law still has not been amended and the foreigner still faces the challenge of extending the visa in order to reside long-term in Thailand...

Read the whole thing: http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/eco ... egulations (http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/economics/255161/working-rules-relaxed-by-change-in-regulations)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[cameroncat]

I can't think of any other country that requires a Work Permit to do Volunteer Work. How stupid. There are probably a bunch of expats that are bored silly and would do some volunteer work if they didn't have to worry about bothering with a "work permit".

[cdnmatt]

I can't think of any other country that requires a Work Permit to do Volunteer Work. How stupid.

I can think of a couple reasons. One being when I see Mormons wandering around the street markets offering "free English lessons" in a society where about 99.97% of the people are Buddhist. Gotta say, that type of thing pisses me off, and is the height of arrogance. Those people should be denied their volunteer work permits.

Anyway, sounds like Thailand is getting caught up with the times, which is good. There's a huge class of people in Thailand probably almost as big, if not as big as the retirees who are remotely or self-employed. And many of them probably spend more money than many retirees too. We're actively working, make more than a 35,000/month pension, and we're younger so we're taking more trips, and spending more carelessly. We're going to be here anyway, so might aswell make it easier and more streamlined for us to stay, instead of making us screw around registering a Thai company we have no use for, or enrolling in school then paying off the teachers to not report our absence, or the dozens of other ways people jump through the hoops.

Hopefully the immigration law gets modified shortly as well, so self-employed people have an easy process like retirees. You know, "here's my incorporation certificate from Hong Kong, proof I'm not taking work away from Thais, proof of good income none of which is from inside Thailand, and a criminal background check. Thank you!".

[Smiles]

" ... I think they write laws this vague to simply give police power to do as they wish ... "
Well duhhh. That is the idea, after all.

And regarding that English dude Hoskins: Kevin is probably most correct that there are farangs willing to backstab another farang for very small peanuts and/or satisfaction indeed. But this guy is an utter idiot.

" ... Hoskin said he had retired to Thailand from the UK and set up the business to keep him busy in his old age. He added that he had no idea what he was doing was illegal. Nevertheless, he was charged with breaking Thai decency laws (yes, they actually exist) and further charged with working without a permit."

Although it is regarded as quite acceptable to use a Thai lawyer (in most cases legit companies have one on their books anyway) to renew yearly visas and work permits. To try to get around immigration laws using one will as has been noted, upset rather than help the said matter with the immigration officials involved.

[Beachlover]

when I see Mormons wandering around the street markets offering "free English lessons" in a society where about 99.97% of the people are Buddhist... that type of thing pisses me off
You get the free English lesson mormons there too? I get these fucksticks trying to hand me their flyer for English lessons at least once a week in Sydney!

Matt, you should tell them to piss off out of Thailand!


There's a huge class of people in Thailand probably almost as big, if not as big as the retirees who are remotely or self-employed. And many of them probably spend more money than many retirees too. We're actively working, make more than a 35,000/month pension, and we're younger so we're taking more trips, and spending more carelessly. We're going to be here anyway, so might aswell make it easier and more streamlined for us to stay, instead of making us screw around registering a Thai company we have no use for, or enrolling in school then paying off the teachers to not report our absence, or the dozens of other ways people jump through the hoops.

Hopefully the immigration law gets modified shortly as well, so self-employed people have an easy process like retirees. You know, "here's my incorporation certificate from Hong Kong, proof I'm not taking work away from Thais, proof of good income none of which is from inside Thailand, and a criminal background check. Thank you!".
Totally agree... countries like Thailand are great for working remotely. They should try to attract more of your type. It'd do a LOT more for their image than the idle, retired Pattaya sexpat type...

Although it is regarded as quite acceptable to use a Thai lawyer (in most cases legit companies have one on their books anyway) to renew yearly visas and work permits. To try to get around immigration laws using one will as has been noted, upset rather than help the said matter with the immigration officials involved.


Hi Combat,

Absolutely right, Immigration also like you to use their agents and people and it is up to you to ask them who they would recommend!

Taking lawyers usually ruffles their feathers as they think you are being ' clever ' or even worse ' undermining their authority '

Absolutely right, Immigration also like you to use their agents and people and it is up to you to ask them who they would recommend!
Taking lawyers usually ruffles their feathers as they think you are being ' clever ' or even worse ' undermining their authority '

You are quite correct Kevin. most International companies have Thai lawyers on their books who are well know in most fields, these guys are competent in handling the visa's, and work permits knowing most of the relevant Thai officials etc., as well as submitting all tax returns due each month.

Its easy with these Morons they always work in pairs so you point at the ugly one and say You can tell me about the book of Moron and your cute friend can suck me off they run a mile!!!!!!!

[Beachlover]

Taking lawyers usually ruffles their feathers as they think you are being ' clever ' or even worse ' undermining their authority '
I wonder if Thai lawyers are attuned to this and develop their approach accordingly.

This dynamic sounds totally different from Western countries where people expect lawyers to clearly put forward their contentions on where they're right and wrong and propose appropriate remedies... without worrying about who might lose face etc.

I guess it might lead to a situation where a farang gets frustrated at his Thai lawyer for pussy footing around, while the Thai lawyer is simply practicing a more sensible approach for dealing with government officials...

Taking lawyers usually ruffles their feathers as they think you are being ' clever ' or even worse ' undermining their authority '
I wonder if Thai lawyers are attuned to this and develop their approach accordingly.

This dynamic sounds totally different from Western countries where people expect lawyers to clearly put forward their contentions on where they're right and wrong and propose appropriate remedies... without worrying about who might lose face etc.

I guess it might lead to a situation where a farang gets frustrated at his Thai lawyer for pussy footing around, while the Thai lawyer is simply practicing a more sensible approach for dealing with government officials...


Hi,

just to give you an idea, I once mentioned to an Immigration official, my lawyers interpretation of the Thai law on a certain immigration matter.

Answer: Yes, but your lawyer is not an immigration policeman, is he? ................end of conversation!