On sex and relationships with prostitutes...

[Beachlover]

This is a long post so skip it if you don't want to read it. It relates to Dodger's "boy prostitutes & karma" topic but unsure I should clutter up his topic with something so extensive so I'll start a new thread and see where it goes.

You may or may not agree with the opinions below. Fair and friendly comments appreciated, positive or negative. I'm no expert and never claimed to be.

As a younger guy, some of my briefly-formed beliefs about the complex world of prostitution and advice to those involved are:

In terms of USING a prostitute...

1. I think it's great this service is available, whether directly or subtly. How miserable it would be not to be able to have sex or sexual companionship.

2. There's a negative conclusion that if you use prostitutes it's because you're too old/fat/ugly or unappealing to get sex with your desired type naturally. This is NOT true in all cases but it certainly is true in some. If it's true for you, you can't get away from it. Accept it.

3. I see no problem using prostitutes if you want to have sex, whether because you can't get it naturally, want a different experience or want to get it more efficiently (i.e. not taking the time/risk to find a mutually willing companion and chat them up), BUT it comes with some caveats.

4. As with all things, self awareness as to your own motives, weaknesses, emotions and the effect this will have to you is important. Of the people who regularly visit Thailand or Pattaya for sex, there are those who remain self aware (you can usually tell by their character) and there are those who don't.

5. The ones who lack self-awareness are less likely to have a satisfying experience and more likely to fall into many of the downsides, which cheap availability of prostitutes can bring. They may not bother to look after their personal appearance (body, grooming and dress) any more, now that money makes up for this. They may loose sight of planning for long-term happiness in lieu of just chasing after the next instance of immediate pleasure in an almost purposeless existence.

Worse still, these oblivious types may lose the ability or will to interact and engage in normal genuine relationships and bring pleasure to others. There's a satisfaction one gets from a genuine relationship or even a brief interaction, which can almost never be achieved with a prostitute, so this is a big loss. Be wary of it.

In terms of LONG-TERM RELATIONSHIPS with prostitutes...

6. I think both empathy and self-awareness are important here.

7. There are farang who are aware and accept they're in a relationship with a person who wouldn't be with them if it wasn't for the money. They set their expectations and the way they interact with and meet their boy's needs accordingly. Their relationship is more likely to be satisfying and more likely to "succeed". The genuine component of the relationship is more likely to grow. If it falls apart, they're less likely to be upset by this. I feel these people are more realistic, much happier and confident in themselves. I've conversed with some of them on this board and have as much respect for them as I would any good person.

8. Then there are some farang who are deluded thinking they're in a real relationship with a boy with genuine feelings both ways. This is far from the case but they don't realise or accept it because they lack self-awareness and empathy to put themselves in their "boyfriend's" shoes. Sometimes they take great pride in what is essentially a charade of a relationship. This kind of relationship is more likely to end disastrously and in many cases has left the farang extremely bitter, unhappy and lashing out for years after. Such is the plight of those with low emotional intelligence, unfortunately. It's like watching a car accident.

9. Can a relationship with a prostitute turn into a 100% or almost 100% genuine one? Yes, I believe so. But it's a very grey area to judge. The emotional intelligence attributes of self awareness and empathy are all the more critical here.

In terms of BEING a prostitute...

10. If someone chooses to be a prostitute as a way to earn a living and their personal preferences don't get in the way, that's ok. But as with all things in life, he should be self-aware of his own motivations behind it and the negative effects it will have on him. I've talked to some gogo boys and money boys who are very self-aware and grounded. But unfortunately, some money boys who let themselves slide into this trade are not self-aware and let it lead them on rather than determining what they want for themselves.

11. Sex is naturally a personal thing. So when you offer sex for cash, then aside from the physically unpleasant aspect, you may also be giving up a certain degree of your personal integrity. It's a matter of being self aware about this and understanding your motives, how it effects you and whether it's worthwhile. I don't think there's a black/white right or wrong.

12. Because it's such a personal thing, most people wouldn't sexually prostitute themselves unless they're short on options and/or the reward is relatively great for them. The more well off a person is - whether materially or mentally - the less likely they are to consider sexual prostitution an attractive option to earn a living. Naturally, this is where much of the negative connotations of being a working boy comes from. There's a general belief that if you prostitute yourself sexually, you are more likely to be a poor person of lesser means. Make of that what you will.

I'm not naming anyone here and the purpose isn't to offend so please don't react with offence if you see what you think is yourself in any of the described situations above.

Personally for myself, I've been with one gogo boy who I met when I was on my first trip to Thailand alone, fairly shy about meeting people, perhaps lonely, an inexperienced traveler and horny. He was not much younger than me, very sweet, incredible in bed and we still keep in touch occasionally (he no longer works in a bar). I've no regrets.

Relating to Dodger's comments on Buddhism, I was born a Buddhist, but neither parents educated me on Buddhism so my knowledge of it is limited to some light reading and talking to close friends who have studied and embodied it in their own lives (not the more institutionalised form of Buddhism found in Thailand).

From what little I know, I suspect a big part of Buddhist teachings is oriented towards self awareness so you can better understand yourself, set your expectations and act accordingly for a happier existence. I like this. Don't have time to study it in detail now but I think one day, I will.

*Definitions for the purposes of this post...

Self-awareness is knowing your own motives, emotions, strengths and weaknesses and the effects of them and how you come off to others.

Empathy is awareness and understanding of other people's feelings, emotions, motives and genuinely putting yourself in their shoes.

Both are essential pillars in emotional intelligence.

[camperboy]

Well, the only reason I would pay for sex is that I can't find bodybuilder size guys in Singapore. Or rather very very rare.

Well, the only reason I would pay for sex is that I can't find bodybuilder size guys in Singapore. Or rather very very rare.

Really? In that case I'm booking flights to Singapore right now!

:rolling:

[zinzone]

Dear Beachlover,
I started reading your post but could not complete it. However I sure it is well considered and researched from your point of view. Important not to intellectualize these things.
A customer who goes with a prostitute should treat that relationship as the business transaction which it is. But seek pure enjoyment. A bit like going into a restaurant and paying for a decent meal and giving a nice tip at the end if the service is good.
Ain't rocket science, is it?

[francois]

BL, I started to read your post but kept gagging over your platitudes and cliches. You say you don't claim to be an expert and say you only have been with one boy/prostitute but write as if you know everything.
For a high school essay I would give an A but for a college essay a D at best.

[cdnmatt]

BL, you need to move to Thailand, and get yourself a boyfriend. Much better (and more frustrating / exhilarating) way to expend your energy. Instead of analyzing it all, jump in with both feet. You only live once! :-)

....You only live once! :-)

Not on THIS board

:sign5:

[Dodger]

Beachlover,

Thank you for a very interesting read. I think you raised some very good points on this very thought provoking topic.

Personally, I believe that "prostitution" is an unhealthy practice for both the sellers and the buyers regardless of the culture or the venue. Regardless if this act is practiced for short term pleasure or with long term romantic notions - it is always motivated by lust and attachment which are the primary sources of dissatifaction with us humans. The fact that I allow myself to engage in these pleasures in no why changes this reality.

I don't now, and I never have, looked at a prostitute as being nothing more than a "person." I judge them and their personalities the same way I judge the personalities of any other person on this planet and have never placed myself above or below them. I simply judge the quality of a person for who he is - not his line of work, the clothes he wears, or the amount of salt he uses on his eggs in the morning.

I have been having a relationship with a boy for 7 years who once worked as a prostitute, and even with all the pain and turmoil, wouldn't trade him in for anyone. The fact that he was a prostitute and I was a whore on the butterfly trail when we first met pretty much balances that scale. Would I receommend this path to anyone else...hell no!

One thing very interesting that I've observed over time is the fact that sex addicts (I mean the clinical type that you see all over the place in places like Pattaya) almsot always describe their perception of the working boys as being noting more than sex objects to them. But conversely, if you ask someone who has a healthy and more ballanced approach to sex the same question, they view the boys as simply being people. Since I consider at least 50% of the farangs who hang their hats in Pattaya as having these symptoms, I would expect that at least 50% of the people reading this will disagree.

I am happy to report that I believe myself to fall into the same 50% as Dodger.

The other 50% simply have no soul IMHO.

:occasion9:

[Impulse]

7. There are farang who are aware and accept they're in a relationship with a person who wouldn't be with them if it wasn't for the money. They set their expectations and the way they interact with and meet their boy's needs accordingly. Their relationship is more likely to be satisfying and more likely to "succeed". The genuine component of the relationship is more likely to grow. If it falls apart, they're less likely to be upset by this. I feel these people are more realistic, much happier and confident in themselves. I've conversed with some of them on this board and have as much respect for them as I would any good person.
I feel I fall into this category pretty much.Well,no relationship,but by the time I retire,I would choose this relationship.I'm accepting that I'm losing my looks,but I still want to have sex with a younger Thai man,than one my own age,even if it means not having a meaningful relationship.
And I hope i never lose my desire to maintain my looks the best I can,at least that in my control,like weight gain.
I thought someone like BL being young,would simply look down on anyone paying for sex with one much younger,but he has empathy for the older man's plight.Very openminded way to be.
A well thought out post.I give it an A,and my standards for young men is very high.Right up there with Dodger's great post.

[Smiles]

" ... Beachlover, Thank you for a very interesting read ... "

Sorry Dodge, but you're loosing yer cookies.
I much prefer Francois description regarding "platitudes and cliches" and simply add 'pack of'.
Walking along Hua Hin beach counting those little sand balls produced by hundreds of thousands of tiny crabs overnight would count as much more interesting.

[Hmmm]

What one man sees as self-awareness, another sees as delusion.

[Beachlover]

Important not to intellectualize these things.
A customer who goes with a prostitute should treat that relationship as the business transaction which it is. But seek pure enjoyment. A bit like going into a restaurant and paying for a decent meal and giving a nice tip at the end if the service is good.
Ain't rocket science, is it?
Thanks.

There are already a gazillion threads on the mechanics of prostitution as you describe, but not much on the moral ethics or emotional effects of sex and relationships with them. So I guess the reason I wrote it was to put out some thoughts (perhaps help me organise my own) and provoke some discussion on the ethical and emotional side of it. I didn't really plan it. Just started writing...

I think by thinking about this some will be more comfortable about what they do instead of wondering if they should feel guilty and also be more likely to avoid or minimise some of the downsides of it. And, as Dodger suggests, others will just get pissed off, offended, disagree without really rationalising it and go back to discussing off fees and bitching about imperfect boys etc.


Well, the only reason I would pay for sex is that I can't find bodybuilder size guys in Singapore. Or rather very very rare.
... and there's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. Have fun!


BL, I started to read your post but kept gagging over your platitudes and cliches.
Hehe... knew it would set you off. I wrote it just for you.


BL, you need to move to Thailand, and get yourself a boyfriend. Much better (and more frustrating / exhilarating) way to expend your energy. Instead of analyzing it all, jump in with both feet. You only live once! :-)
Nooo.... my income would drop 80% and I have too many family commitments and friends here for now so any move would need frequent trips back. Besides, I like exploring the boys and gay life in a lot of other countries outside Thailand. Thailand just happens to be a favourite. Plenty of v horny Thai students here in Sydney though!


A well thought out post.
:happy7:


I would choose this relationship.
Yeah... in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with what you say. It's a great example of self awareness. Enjoy!

Perhaps just thinking of it as an exchange of gifts. His/her youth and beauty for your cash, nothing more and nothing less. One should also keep in mind that you are dealing with another human being and treat them as such.

[Beachlover]

Personally, I believe that "prostitution" is an unhealthy practice for both the sellers and the buyers regardless of the culture or the venue. Regardless if this act is practiced for short term pleasure or with long term romantic notions - it is always motivated by lust and attachment which are the primary sources of dissatifaction with us humans. The fact that I allow myself to engage in these pleasures in no why changes this reality.
That's a very interesting point of view...

I prefer not to be so absolute about it and say it isn't necessarily unhealthy if we have the self awareness to manage our motives, emotions and decisions.

In terms of your view of it being unhealthy to act on lust and attachment, I think for most people it would be even less healthy not to allow yourself to indulge in these pleasures if desired, while maintaining self awareness and understanding how it effects you and the cost/benefit of the indulgence so you can moderate yourself on it.


I don't now, and I never have, looked at a prostitute as being nothing more than a "person." I judge them and their personalities the same way I judge the personalities of any other person on this planet and have never placed myself above or below them. I simply judge the quality of a person for who he is - not his line of work, the clothes he wears, or the amount of salt he uses on his eggs in the morning.
Totally agree... I think this is what I was trying to do in the last portion of my post addressing, "being a prostitute". However, I think their line of work is still a relevant factor in judging their character as long as you remove the prejudices and look more at the drivers behind his choices and the approach he takes to what he does.


The fact that he was a prostitute and I was a whore on the butterfly trail when we first met pretty much balances that scale.
I think it's your self-awareness posters respect most...


One thing very interesting that I've observed over time is the fact that sex addicts (I mean the clinical type that you see all over the place in places like Pattaya) almsot always describe their perception of the working boys as being noting more than sex objects to them. But conversely, if you ask someone who has a healthy and more ballanced approach to sex the same question, they view the boys as simply being people. Since I consider at least 50% of the farangs who hang their hats in Pattaya as having these symptoms, I would expect that at least 50% of the people reading this will disagree.
Totally agree.

[Beachlover]

Perhaps just thinking of it as an exchange of gifts. His/her youth and beauty for your cash, nothing more and nothing less. One should also keep in mind that you are dealing with another human being and treat them as such.
That has its merits. But I think it gets more complicated than that for those who get into a habit of it and then plunge into serious relationships and such... There's so much bitching on these boards about problematic relationships with "boyfriends" who are essentially working boys. And we know a certain segment of the population, which Dodger describes, has issues and is common in Thailand's expat/sexpat community...

That has its merits. But I think it gets more complicated than that for those who get into a habit of it and then plunge into serious relationships and such... There's so much bitching on these boards about problematic relationships with "boyfriends" who are essentially working boys. And we know a certain segment of the population, which Dodger describes, has issues and is common in Thailand's expat/sexpat community...

I agree Beach, one needs to keep it all in perspective, but human nature being what it is, it is easy for a punter who might have lived alone for a number of years to confuse his feelings for love or think that he is being loved in turn by the younger bar boy/girl. Of course it happens, but in many cases situations like that always end up badly. I think that those who put down working boys and girls, and treat them as sex objects are those that have formed what they thought was a loving relationship only to have been hurt and taken to the cleaners.

[dab69]

OP- overly wordy dissertation on the obvious and pretending it's profound

DUH

[Beachlover]

I agree Beach, one needs to keep it all in perspective, but human nature being what it is, it is easy for a punter who might have lived alone for a number of years to confuse his feelings for love or think that he is being loved in turn by the younger bar boy/girl.
That's exactly why I think self-awareness and empathy are important. Totally agree perspective is important too.


I think that those who put down working boys and girls, and treat them as sex objects are those that have formed what they thought was a loving relationship only to have been hurt and taken to the cleaners.
True. One of the marks of a man is his ability to assess (what happened), adapt (be wiser), move on and persist, proactively, rather than responding reactively and obliviously to it.

I know this is a bold opinion and I couldn't care less if people hate me for it, but I think almost all the bitching about Thai prostitutes and relationships you see by long timers on these boards comes down to this and this thread. But human nature being what it is, it's easier to dismiss it all and carry on bitching and indulging in the sex object thing.

[francois]

I know this is a bold opinion and I couldn't care less if people hate me for it, but I think almost all the bitching about Thai prostitutes and relationships you see by long timers on these boards comes down to this and this thread. But human nature being what it is, it's easier to dismiss it all and carry on bitching and indulging in the sex object thing.

Beachlover, you are truly wise beyond your years. Why would anyone hate you for what you write?

Beachlover, you are truly wise beyond your years. Why would anyone hate you for what you write?

I love him :love4: and Scotty too :love4:

Beachlover, you are truly wise beyond your years. Why would anyone hate you for what you write?

lol. I must say, this BL seems like an entirely different person compared to a few years ago. Use to argue with everyone about everything...

[Wesley]

BL, I started to read your post but kept gagging over your platitudes and cliches. You say you don't claim to be an expert and say you only have been with one boy/prostitute but write as if you know everything.
For a high school essay I would give an A but for a college essay a D at best.

i THOUGHT HE DID A A ON ALL, YOUR JEALOUS OF HIS AGE

[netrix]

" ... Beachlover, Thank you for a very interesting read ... "

Sorry Dodge, but you're loosing yer cookies.
I much prefer Francois description regarding "platitudes and cliches" and simply add 'pack of'.
Walking along Hua Hin beach counting those little sand balls produced by hundreds of thousands of tiny crabs overnight would count as much more interesting.

agreed. *yawn*

[Beachlover]

agreed. *yawn*
Wow... that's not quite as stupid and unoriginal as the Facebook "like" graphics you post sometimes... well done on dropping those.

Personally, I believe that "prostitution" is an unhealthy practice for both the sellers and the buyers regardless of the culture or the venue. Regardless if this act is practiced for short term pleasure or with long term romantic notions - it is always motivated by lust and attachment which are the primary sources of dissatifaction with us humans. The fact that I allow myself to engage in these pleasures in no why changes this reality.
That's a very interesting point of view...

I prefer not to be so absolute about it and say it isn't necessarily unhealthy if we have the self awareness to manage our motives, emotions and decisions.

In terms of your view of it being unhealthy to act on lust and attachment, I think for most people it would be even less healthy not to allow yourself to indulge in these pleasures if desired, while maintaining self awareness and understanding how it effects you and the cost/benefit of the indulgence so you can moderate yourself on it.


I'm not an expert on Buddhism, but my understanding of it is that the base drives (hunger, sexual drive etc), are not considered as attachments, nor is satisfying those drives. Fixating on one particular dish, and demanding that the world provide only that dish for you in future might be considered an attachment. One suffers if the dish is not available, or is no longer of the quality you have come to expect. n.b. Dish can have more than one meaning!

Incidentally I'm talking about a Western understanding of Buddhism. To Thais, Buddhism mostly seems to be about splashing water about the place and burning incense.

I'm not an expert on Buddhism.

To Thais, Buddhism mostly seems to be about splashing water about the place and burning incense.

Could you enlighten us all to how someone who is "not an expert on Buddhism" can conclude that to "Thai's Buddhism seems to be about splashing water about the place and burning incense?" Obviously you have spent many years studying the Buddhist population of Thailand over a number of years to have come to that astounding conclusion, or is your hypothesis based on a few visits to Pattaya during Songkran?

Could you enlighten us all to how someone who is "not an expert on Buddhism" can conclude that to "Thai's Buddhism seems to be about splashing water about the place and burning incense?" Obviously you have spent many years studying the Buddhist population of Thailand over a number of years to have come to that astounding conclusion, or is your hypothesis based on a few visits to Pattaya during Songkran?

You'll have to forgive me, for I am only a Beginner. My conclusions are based on my limited observation of what appears to be people following superstitious rituals. I ask why and I'm told it is for 'For Buddha bring Good Luck'. I don't mean to single Thais out in this regard - I'd say the same of most Christians in the West and followers of most religions. Often the religious are well practised in the superstitious rituals, but lack understanding of the tenets of the religion.

Often the religious are well practised in the superstitious rituals, but lack understanding of the tenets of the religion.

You might be a beginner but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head for the majority of Thais.

[Smiles]

Often the religious are well practised in the superstitious rituals, but lack understanding of the tenets of the religion.
You might be a beginner but you've pretty much hit the nail on the head for the majority of Thais.
Yes ... only this very morning, all sleepy-eyed, my dearest ~ outta the blue ~ announced that this year, 2011, will be full of bad luck, inauspicious, a black hole of heart ache and suffering. Why? Because the year number ended with a '1' ... an odd number.

Confronted with the observation that the Thai year, 2554, ended with an even number and that "what do you think of that?" he replied: " ... not sure. I have a headache ... " then rolled over and when back to sleep.
As he lay half-sleeping, I also added, annoyingly, that this January (the first month of the odd-numbered western year) had been his best ever in terms of business ~ so much so that I've hardly seen the man for days on end. No answer, asleep.

[Beachlover]

I'm not an expert on Buddhism, but my understanding of it is that the base drives (hunger, sexual drive etc), are not considered as attachments, nor is satisfying those drives. Fixating on one particular dish, and demanding that the world provide only that dish for you in future might be considered an attachment. One suffers if the dish is not available, or is no longer of the quality you have come to expect. n.b. Dish can have more than one meaning!.
That makes sense to me... if it's true, I like it!



To Thais, Buddhism mostly seems to be about splashing water about the place and burning incense.
Could you enlighten us all to how someone who is "not an expert on Buddhism" can conclude that to "Thai's Buddhism seems to be about splashing water about the place and burning incense?" Obviously you have spent many years studying the Buddhist population of Thailand over a number of years to have come to that astounding conclusion, or is your hypothesis based on a few visits to Pattaya during Songkran?
I suspect he is trying to express that he thinks Buddhism in Thailand is more institutionalised and ritualised from its basic raw form.