Boy Prostitutes & Karma

[Dodger]

My babblings on this topic are intentionally focused on тАЬboy prostitutesтАЭ, although the context of the topic and the points I am raising apply to both male and female genders.

First, for the noviceтАжwhat is Karma?

The teachings of Buddha are inherently engrained into the Thai culture, which are adhered to by most in order to keep their karma pure. The doctrine of karma maintains that each human act carries its own merit or demerit. The Thai people believe that during their lives, they are in the process of being born again. When they die, they will either be promoted to a higher karma, or, if their soul is impure, they will be punished and reincarnated to a lower form of life where they must learn to cleanse their karma.

With every act they do, by helping someone, by showing gratefulness to their parents, they are making merit, or, in other words, they are performing actions which will purify their soul. If Thais do something which will bring dishonor or shame to themselves or their families, they will have made a "stain" on their karma and must therefore redeem themselves by performing good actions, thereby cleansing their karma once again.

Some working boys (not all) seek to gain good karma by doing work which will help their families, not to escape them. The boys feel that by showing their gratefulness to their parents for what they have been given, they not only have an opportunity to alleviate financial pressures on their family, but also as a chance to make merit and gain karma. Temporary work in the sex industry may be seen as fate or karma, not a moral flaw in the boy himself, or it may be seen as work for his family that gains him karmic merit.

Roughly speaking, we can say that there are two types of prostitutes: (1) those forced into prostitution by poverty or social deprivation and (2) those who choose to do it because they feel it is a convenient and easy way to make money. This first type of prostitute is called a harlot (vesiya) or a streetwalker (bandhak├г) in the Buddhist scriptures while the second type is called a courtesan (ganika or nagarasobhini). The intention of the first is probably just to survive and is therefore karmmically ( I just invented that word) far less negative than the second whose motive might be greed, laziness or lack of self-respect. The first is not willingly involved in wrong livelihood while the second clearly is. Having said that, both categories actually violate one of the key precepts of Buddhism which stresses the importance of тАЬright livelihoodтАЭ, although the Buddhists themselves rely on the lay people to make their own decisions regarding this and do not discriminate or look down on them - which would be the case in western culture.

Sexuality is natural and sex for sale is an ancient profession, but, again, if you really look close, it is not hard to see that the lust that motivates such an industry has negative effects on both the workers and the customers. At the very least, participation in the sex industry is dependent for profit on lust and attachment, the very causes of suffering and dissatisfaction for people.

My BF left home at age 15 and worked as a prostitute in Pattaya until age 20. He was still actively working during the first 2 years of our relationship and we have now been together for 7 years. During this 7 year period he has never shown any signs whatsoever of being ashamed or remorseful about his previous line of work, nor have I ever felt any reason for him to feel regretful or ashamed.
If it were not for his unselfish contributions to his family they would still be living in a dilapidated rice storage bin and slaving all day in the rice fields just for enough baht to survive. Now they live in a real home with electricity, fresh water supply and a roof which actually stops the water from pouring in during the rains. They also went from slaving in the heat all day as pickers and sorters тАУ to managing their own small piece of farm land which is now maintained by hired workers. His respect and sense of obligation towards his family has remained relentless, even during this most difficult time of his life while he serves a prison sentence for drug possession.

The majority of Thai working boys (or prostitutes) are no different than my BF Thep. They come from impoverished families, see prostitution as a means of making money to help their families survive and gain good karma, view the nature of their work simply as a set of required tasks, appreciate interacting with jai dee farang during their mission, and have an amazing amount of resilience when encountering customerтАЩs who lack good karma. They enter prostitution knowing that they are not being judged by their family... they know that they are taking the opportunity to make merit for their family and to purify their karma. And contrary to what many may believe, the families of the working boys know exactly what their work involves.

ThereтАЩs no concept of sexual sin in Buddhism, so thereтАЩs no idea that being a sex worker is morally wrong. It may be or it may not be, depending upon the person. For some people, being a yoga teacher or therapist or DMV worker are absolutely the wrong occupations тАФ for them. WhatтАЩs better тАФ a really conscientious sex worker or a really lousy therapist? Which one has the greater potential to cause more harm? My opinion is that sex work takes a very deep toll on a person physically and psychologically. And therefore itтАЩs probably not the best line of work to get into if you want a stable life, but there is no sin involved and it certainly is not categorically forbidden within Thai Buddhist culture.

I think itтАЩs fair to say that most of us have seen some working boys who are nothing more than liars, thieves and scoundrels, and unfortunately, they do exist, although it has been my experience that these are the exception and the majority of Thai working boys are as honest and substantial as the day is long and perform their work for the purposes as stated above. Farangs donтАЩt get angry with working boys because they are unhappy with the service they provided - they get angry because their emotional needs are not being fulfilled, which, in most cases, would be totally impossible for the boy to deliver on.

A somewhat trivial tid-bit, but interesting (to me anyway), is the fact that the Thais themselves refer to those who work in the sex trade as being either working boys or working girls тАУ terms which were quickly adopted by us alien farang. The term тАЬprostituteтАЭ, along with all the negative connotations of the trade, are solely western inventions. If a boy works as a motorbike mechanic тАУ he is referred to as a boy who works as a motorbike mechanic. If the same boy quits his job and goes to work as a gogo dancer he is then referred to as a working boy, where the nature (or description) of his work remains transparent. The only time you will ever hear the term тАЬprostituteтАЭ is when it is coming from a farangs lips, and ironically, the only time you will hear negative connotations about the nature of their work it will be coming from the very same set of lipsтАжand thatтАЩs where bad karma comes from.

Now, why doesnтАЩt someone start a topic on тАЬFarang Sex Addicts and Karma and see where that takes usтАж555.

Mai pen rai

Dodger, that is possibly the best post i have read in 2010.

:hello2:

[Beachlover]

Dodger, a very well considered and thought through post. Your explanation is an excellent primer for sex oriented visitors to Thailand.

If I can add another point of view, in my opinion, what you say about the attitude to working boys and their profession is mostly correct. In much of Thailand, the negative connotations about the nature of this profession are either few or non-existent.

But long time visitors and expats in Thailand shouldn't be lulled into a delusion that prostitution is entirely accepted in Thai society with no taboo altogether.

There is some taboo and some negative connotations in prostitution. Less so in the poorer working class. More so in the wealthier middle and upper class society. But even where there are negative connotations existing, they aren't anywhere near as bad as they are in most Western societies.

The other dynamic to consider is that a boy is more likely to become a working boy if they come from a family, community or background, which is fairly accepting of this work than one, which isn't.

This isn't a criticism of who you choose to spend your time with. But if you spend most of your time around working boys and the poorer working class, you should keep yourself aware that not all Thais hold the same behaviours, habits, values and beliefs as the ones you are with. That would be like spending all your time around rednecks like Sarah Palin and George Bush and thinking all Americans are like them.

[Impulse]

Another great post Dodger.amazing that Thep was a working boi at only 15 years.I wonder if it affected his attitude towards you in any way.Meaning that if he was raised in the West he might have anger and mistrust issues with you.
But as you have described,him being from a poor family in a culture that is more accepting of prostitution,maybe he looks up to you as some sort of savior.


That would be like spending all your time around rednecks like Sarah Palin and George Bush and thinking all Americans are like them.

Very true,It's a shame that people will judge a country based on their leaders and the actions they impose.Bush lost the popular vote to Gore.I can't help but think how much better America would be now if the man the people voted for would have become the leader.

So basically Dodger you disagree with this statement - "Prostitution, of course, is against the teachings of the Buddha (http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html)"??

[dab69]

So basically Dodger you disagree with this statement - "Prostitution, of course, is against the teachings of the Buddha (http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html)"??

Quite a sweeping generalization/interpretation of a farang from Phoenix.

BG you old coot wherre have you BEEN?

This one even drew in the pretend asian from "Australia".

Nobody really cares.

It's a well written post Dodger, but might I ask what you have based your opinions on. I have found that older, educated Thais views on prostitution are quite different, and much on a par with other cultures around the world. There is very much of the "up to you" attitude in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that certain 'ways' are more acceptable here than in any other parts of the world. It just isn't discussed openly as much. I would agree though that sex workers do in some cases bring some hope to themselves and poorer families who might not have any other way of breaking away from their poverty trap.

On a lighter note I do remember Chatchai, a former Prime Minister of Thailand on being asked by a foreign reporter what he thought about the reports being written about Thailand being a Sex Tourists Haven replied "Isn't it nice that everyone loves the Thais" By the way his nickname with the Thai's was 'Mr. No Problem!'

[Hmmm]

Another possible reason for the Thais' slightly more relaxed attitude towards sex workers is that Thai males are quite possibly the world champions when it comes to employing their services.

Another reason is that up-country is now full of Thai women living in big houses with their farang husbands, having met them while working in a 'restaurant' in Bangkok. Hence many families are pragmatically less likely to be worried about their sons and daughters working in 'restaurants'.

[Brad the Impala]

On a lighter note I do remember Chatchai, a former Prime Minister of Thailand on being asked by a foreign reporter what he thought about the reports being written about Thailand being a Sex Tourists Haven replied "Isn't it nice that everyone loves the Thais" By the way his nickname with the Thai's was 'Mr. No Problem!'

I think that the Prime Minister in question was much earlier and was the erudite and gay Kukrit Pramoj, and his response to the question about sex tourists coming to Thailand was, with a wry smile, "I am glad that the rest of the world find us so attractive!"

Hard to think of Chatchai responding in this way.

[Beachlover]

Another possible reason for the Thais' slightly more relaxed attitude towards sex workers is that Thai males are quite possibly the world champions when it comes to employing their services.
True... sex industry catering to locals is huge.


Very true,It's a shame that people will judge a country based on their leaders and the actions they impose.Bush lost the popular vote to Gore.I can't help but think how much better America would be now if the man the people voted for would have become the leader.
Exactly, not all Americans are like Bush and Palin... my point is not to judge all Thai people by characteristics and attitudes of the lower working class and "working boys" who they spend all their time with. Not all Thais have that attitude towards the sex industry. There is still some taboo about it.


I have found that older, educated Thais views on prostitution are quite different, and much on a par with other cultures around the world. There is very much of the "up to you" attitude in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that certain 'ways' are more acceptable here than in any other parts of the world. It just isn't discussed openly as much.
Totally agree. Not just older and educated Thais, but more educated Thais in general.


On a lighter note I do remember Chatchai, a former Prime Minister of Thailand on being asked by a foreign reporter what he thought about the reports being written about Thailand being a Sex Tourists Haven replied "Isn't it nice that everyone loves the Thais" By the way his nickname with the Thai's was 'Mr. No Problem!'
Heh... charming, that's such a Thai answer.

[Dodger]

Beachlover,

Thank you for your response.

You Wrote:


There is some taboo and some negative connotations in prostitution. Less so in the poorer working class. More so in the wealthier middle and upper class society.

I think there will always be negative connotations about prostitution...in any society or culture, although I have not seen a significant difference between the connotations (or taboos) between the poorer working classes and upper class society in Thailand as you suggest.

My first two years in Thailand were spent working for a major fortune 100 company operating in Rayong Thailand. Serving as the Thai/U.S. counterpart in this joint venture I was hosted to many late night dinners and private parties at the homes of what one would refer to as the "upper-class." During this two year period I can recall at least a dozen times where I was taken to late night entertainment venues - mostly in and around Bangkok - many of which were sexually oriented with prostitutes for all tastes, e.g., age, gender, sexual orientation, etc. My Thai hosts were almost all married with children - showed no signs of reluctance when engaing with the prostitutes - showed no signs of their actions as being connected to any taboo, just paid a hell of a lot more for the services than the the lower classes would (or could) afford.

The Thais, like any other culture or socieity, have a social hierarchy where the upper-class view those in lower hierarchial positions in the downward position - and those in the poorer classes look up....such is life. But when it comes to the topic of prostitution, it is my feeling that they all view this on a level playing field. Understand that I am basing my opinion on the fact that one can not indulge himself in anything in life - until he has first accepted what it is that he is indulging in. He may choose to look down on this after the deed is done - but he will only see a reflection of himself in a mirror - because both the "customer" and the "prostitute" have already revealed their acceptance of each other, and ultimatley, their decisions to interact and co-exist on the same exact level.

Curious Wrote:


So basically Dodger you disagree with this statement - "Prostitution, of course, is against the teachings of the Buddha"??

No, basically I am not disagreeing with anything.

I believe I already stated in this thread that prostituion violates a precept of Buddhist which defines "right livlihood."

Things like compassion, understanding and the acknowledgement that all people are imperfect, are also key components of Buddhism, thus the reason for the high level of acceptance you experience all around you in Thailand. Buddhism is a lifestyle more than it is a religion. There are no rules to be broken. You can't do anything that's categorically "against Buddhism." Everythiong that you do in life is either "for" or "against yourself".

[fedssocr]

do you think that your boyfriend's drug addiction has anything to do with his becoming a "working boy" at 15?

[Dodger]

Fedssorc Wrote:


do you think that your boyfriend's drug addiction has anything to do with his becoming a "working boy" at 15?

Absolutely!

Quite a sweeping generalization/interpretation of a farang from Phoenix.I was quoting from the article by Tavivat Puntarigvivay, who is professor in the Humanities Department at Mahidol University in Thailand, if you had bothered to scroll down past the first line of the post!

[Hmmm]

So basically Dodger you disagree with this statement - "Prostitution, of course, is against the teachings of the Buddha (http://www.sexwork.com/Thailand/buddhism.html)"??

The site linked to by Curious is actually a very interesting read. It presents viewpoints both consistent and contrary to that suggested by Dodger. The contrary views come from the abovementioned Thai academic (with a PhD in religion from a US university ... take that to mean what you will) and a gay Australian academic, whose full article is more about homosexuality and Buddhism, and is here:
http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Ar ... ckson.html (http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/J/Jackson/homoBuddhaJackson.html)

One of his main points is that Buddhism is essentially 'anti-sex' (thus placing it in league with most religions).

I think that Dodger's assertion that 'thereтАЩs no concept of sexual sin in Buddhism' would be challenged by those with a better knowledge of the religion that me.

In any case, I reckon that the poor communities from which most Thai sex workers come are unlikely to have come to their own conclusions as to what Buddhism may or may not 'really' say about such matters. They will have been taught the Buddhist 'party line' on sex by the local monks, which they are likely to take as 'gospel'. I think it is unlikely that they will have re-interpreted such teachings to suit their own ends. Rather they will simply have come to their own pragmatic conclusions on how to live their lives. This will presumably be influenced by the belief that their current life is to some extent predestined by their previous lives. How that screws with the notion of being in control on one's own destiny is anyone's guess.

I'd be as much inclined to believe an Italian peasant woman's "take" on why the Catholic church is opposed to artificial methods of contraception as I would a Thai peasant boy's "take" on Buddhist attitudes to prostitution. :hiding:

I think that the Prime Minister in question was much earlier and was the erudite and gay Kukrit Pramoj, and his response to the question about sex tourists coming to Thailand was, with a wry smile, "I am glad that the rest of the world find us so attractive!"

Hard to think of Chatitchai responding in this way.

Sorry Brad It was most definitely Chatitchai "Mr. No Problem" 1990 time who said it, it was just one of the many quotes he was famous or infamous for. And it had nothing to do with gays it was a general question about Tourists being reported in the foreign media as coming to Thailand for sex.

You can read about it here Brad, just scan down to the bottom article about the Coup:

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/tag/evening-standard/

The posted story was:

"Actually I have found Chatitchai quite an amiable rogue, although perhaps not very politically correct in western eyes.

When he was once asked wasnтАЩt it a national disgrace that the country was known as a destination for sex tourists he replied:

тАЬWell , Thai girls are beautiful are they not?тАЭ

from which most Thai sex workers come are unlikely to have come to their own conclusions as to what Buddhism may or may not 'really' say about such matters.

'Really' say? or Really 'say' '?

It's hard to argue in all this topic, which I guess here has become 'Prostitution and Buddhism' as opposed to Dodger's well reasoned essay on Karma and prostitution. There are the good guys and the bad guys (and I put Hmmm in the good guys) but the problem is that the PREMISES behind much of the discussion held to by both the good guys and the bad guys is WRONG. Western religions have SAY because their leaders SAY that they speak for a supreme being who SAYS what is right and what is wrong (and it really is only that YOU THINK that 'religion' has this 'say', isn't it?). One ONLY has to consider that the terrorist who SAYS he acted in the name of a god is WRONG to see how absurd that premise is. But anyway, Buddhism in non-theistic, therefore is not god-faith based, and therefore does not say, at least in terms of a fearful divine being. A lot is up to you ;-). Buddhism does not share a concept of 'sin' with the western religions. And indeed is not a religion, certainly not in the western sense of what a religion is. We westerners just assume since it is their religion then it should have a definitive 'say', particularly on the topic of sex, and IMHO that reflects more our western infatuation with the subject (of sex), than anything else.

[Brad the Impala]

I think that the Prime Minister in question was much earlier and was the erudite and gay Kukrit Pramoj, and his response to the question about sex tourists coming to Thailand was, with a wry smile, "I am glad that the rest of the world find us so attractive!"

Hard to think of Chatitchai responding in this way.

Sorry Brad It was most definitely Chatitchai "Mr. No Problem" 1990 time who said it, it was just one of the many quotes he was famous or infamous for. And it had nothing to do with gays it was a general question about Tourists being reported in the foreign media as coming to Thailand for sex.

You can read about it here Brad, just scan down to the bottom article about the Coup:

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/tag/evening-standard/

The posted story was:

"Actually I have found Chatitchai quite an amiable rogue, although perhaps not very politically correct in western eyes.

When he was once asked wasnтАЩt it a national disgrace that the country was known as a destination for sex tourists he replied:

тАЬWell , Thai girls are beautiful are they not?тАЭ

Well substantiated...................However I have a memory of being back in the UK, seeing Kukrit being interviewed as Prime Minister, on a BBC news programme, and making these comments. That would have been some fifteen years earlier.......................but it was a long time ago!

[Dodger]

ArNoLD Wrote:


Buddhism does not share a concept of 'sin' with the western religions. And indeed is not a religion, certainly not in the western sense of what a religion is

Well stated.

There is no" God" mentioned or included in the teachings of Buddha, nor did Buddha himself pretend to be a God.
(Curious...that outta keep you busy for a while...you can start with the Pali Cannon)

The word "sin" is fascinating. A word invented by Man for the purpose of defining an evil act, or an act which violates which ever God a person has decided to believe in...or should I say fear. Buddhism does talk about evil acts - and the consequences of those acts as they effect a persons soul (karma) and transformation to the next life, although, there is no mention of the word "sin", nor is there any reference to a negative effect a person may realize if he were to violate the holy word of a God...because, again, there is no reference to any God in Buddhism.

One of the many things I appreciate about Buddhism is the fact that you don't have to be a scholar to comprehend it Most of the poor farm boys handle it pretty well in my book.

[brlumpet-old]

Now, why doesnтАЩt someone start a topic on тАЬFarang Sex Addicts and Karma and see where that takes usтАж555.

Mai pen rai

Hi,

I think that the karmic return of sex and prostitution depend of the attitude and the degree of respect we show to our partner. That is true for boy prostitute as well as for the customer.

Sex and even prostitution as a such is neutral. It does not contain the seed of bad or good karma. It can rather be the result of past karma. For the customer the way to realise some hold desire which was never fulfilled. In the case of sex addict, he is looking for something he believe he could find paying for it, but he usually never find the kind of fusional relationship he unconsciously look for and he continue again and again to have superficial sex.

The result for future karma depend the way he treats the prostitute. If he is respectful and correct I guess (but who knows :dontknow: ) that the result should not be to hard.

It is the same rule that for all the actions we perform, not only in which concern sex.

Happy new year to everybody

One of the many things I appreciate about Buddhism is the fact that you don't have to be a scholar to comprehend it Most of the poor farm boys handle it pretty well in my book.All the Thais I've ever met were Animists through and through, with a very thin veneer of "Buddhism". You only have to look at practices like spirit houses (but hey, no, they don't believe in higher beings, do they, so it can't be a religious practice) or liberating caged birds or fish at temples to gain "merit" to understand that even in the narrow definition (much loved by those who run to popular dictionaries to understand the meaning of life) of a religion equals belief in higher beings what's practised in Thailand by those calling themselves Buddhists is a religion. It's a completely different question as to whether what was taught by Gautama was a religion, but since no-one practices what he preached, the question is entirely a theoretical one. However much the narrow definition of religion ("belief in the supernatural") may suit the dictionary lovers it is not generally accepted in more educated circles. See the Wikipedia article on religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion) as a good starting point.

[cdnmatt]

Nice post Dodger!

There's definitely something within Thai culture that makes sexual activity (and age disparancy) much less of a taboo than in the West. Nice explanation on Buddhism & karma, but honestly, from my experience most Thais follow the teachings of Buddha about as much as most Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. In other words, almost not at all.

I've met a couple people who maybe keep their kamaric value in the back of their minds, but for the most part, none seem to care much at all. And I mean nobody -- poor ladyboys, business account managers at KBank, engineers, loving housewives, bitchy girlfriends, cashiers, etc. I see these people getting piss drunk then cheating on their wives, or backstabbing friends, or stealing, lieing, etc. They don't seem to care about karma much at all.

For example, take a look at the red shirts. These guys are supposed to be the Buddhists of the Buddhists, and they're out throwing bombs around Bangkok. That can't be very good for your karma. Or how about the widespread corruption & exploitation at every level of government?


The only time you will ever hear the term тАЬprostituteтАЭ is when it is coming from a farangs lips, and ironically, the only time you will hear negative connotations about the nature of their work it will be coming from the very same set of lips

I'd have to disagree. For example, loads of working boys will never tell their parents what they truly do for work. Prostitues aren't exactly respected members of society, but granted, are very much tolerated. Not sure why that it. My best guess would be two-fold. One, a large percentage of the population uses them, and has for thousands of years, so it's the accepted norm. You've been out to the country side before, and just look at all the short-time rooms around. Those aren't all for farangs.

And second, the Buddhism & society thing. Everyone is supposed to know their place in society (this gets quite irritating after a while). If you're a prostitue in this life, it's not because of your actions in this life, but because you fucked up in a previous life. So you get some leeway there, because it's not quite your fault. It's the faults of your previous life. This is why so many Thais are very lazy and complacent. There's no reason for ambition, because this is your current reincarnation, and what you're stuck with this life.


There is no" God" mentioned or included in the teachings of Buddha, nor did Buddha himself pretend to be a God.

I don't know the answer to this one, but then why does everyone pray to Buddha? When we goto the temple, I'll even ask Kim, "so what did you ask Buddha for". And he'll tell me, "ohhh, for this & this". Oh, alright then.

Then Kim also blesses my office every few days (I think it's his way of telling me to make more money. :-)). I have nice pictures of Buddha and HM on the wall, and below them a small table with a couple vases of flowers, a metal pot with some small flowers & amulets in, plus another smaller vase / pot in the middle filled with rice for the incense sticks. Every few days he'll bring some new flowers in, light some incense, give Buddha a bottle of fanta or something (Budda never drinks it thoguh), do his thing, and off he goes with his life.

[springco]

There is no" God" mentioned or included in the teachings of Buddha, nor did Buddha himself pretend to be a God.

I don't know the answer to this one, but then why does everyone pray to Buddha? When we goto the temple, I'll even ask Kim, "so what did you ask Buddha for". And he'll tell me, "ohhh, for this & this". Oh, alright then.


Buddhism does not prohibit things. Because of this almost anything is possible and is the reason that its trappings take on many different appearances in various places. The heart of Buddhism is "meditation".

Further, the person most refer to when they speak of "The Buddha" was a man named Siddhartha Gautama. He is the founder of what is in reality a philosophy. There have been untold numbers of Buddhas. Buddhism has no rituals and the term "monk" is misleading. Those we call "monks" are in fact Bhikkhus and should be thought of as teachers. Bhikkhus have no powers other than what other humans possess. There is no one to pray to in Buddhism nor is there anyone to hear or answer your prayers. It has no gods. Siddhartha Gautama encouraged his listeners to achieve their enlightenment on their own and through their own efforts and not through any "faith" or "belief" in what others have told them. Consider what you take on "faith" or through "belief" to be worthless.

If you spend some time talking with a Buddhist scholar, you will come away with some very different ideas than what you pick up by observing social customs that vary greatly from place to place and have been grafted onto Buddhist philosophy.

To repeat, the very heart of Buddhism is meditation. One might say that it is a process of emptying one's thoughts, not filling them. Finally, words fail since they are an illusion in themselves. The "ego" which is a personal identity, which so many cling to, also turns out to be no more than a fantasy.

These are words. Don't expect much from them other than a nudge, if that.

[Dodger]

Some very good points have been raised about Buddhism in general, especially as related to things like symbolism and the superstitious elements which you can see all around you in Thailand.

My feelings have always been that if there is the "right motivation" and "right thinking" behind these gestures than they are in fact consistent with (and aligned with) the beliefs all Buddhists carry in life. For example "spirit houses." These are intended to display a person (or families) belief in the existence of an evil spirit in the world - and the person (or families) desire to keep this evil spirit seperate from their lives. Through western eyes this is viewed as being nothing more than a meaningless superstitious act, although to a Buddhist, even the highly educated scholars within the Thai buddhist community, this pratice holds significant meaning. Symbolic meaning yes, but meaning none-the-less. The same holds true for the freeing of a bird from its gage - or garnishing a Buddha statue with incense and orange juice. These gestures are intended to be an expression of acknowledgement and gratitude for life as they (the Buddhist's) see life.

When a Buddhist appears to be praying to a God (through western eyes) he in fact is not. He is simply attempting to touch his inner-self - not any God, and certainly not any Buddha.

[Dodger]

Buddhism & Science: Superstition

Quotes taken from "The Buddist Discipline" written by the venerable P.A. Payutto:

They do not get carried away by superstition; they believe in deeds, aspiring to results from their own deeds through their own effort in a rational way; they are not excited by wildly rumored superstition, talismans or lucky charms; they do not aspire to results from praying for miracles."
From Anguttara Nikaya III 206, Pali Tipitaka

it can be seen that such an attitude to superstition, particularly towards the petitionary and protective varieties often seen here in Thailand, is grounded in traditional teachings attributed to the Buddha. Praying to gods, angels, and nature spirits to help one out of difficulties or to gain some advantage over others is simply not in the down-to-earth spirit of the Buddha's teachings; something that most meditating Buddhists would probably agree with. Few people in this beautiful country actually practice meditation or mindfulness, however, preferring to concentrate on 'making merit' to gain some advantage for their future lives, or procuring 'magic' talismans or potions to protect them from harm. Monks are often asked to supply lottery numbers in the belief that they have some sort of predictive powers to enrich their followers - something the late, great Ajahn Chah, amongst other forest monks, refused to do.

Of course, in the Buddhist scriptures there can be found ample descriptions of supernatural beings, places, and phenomena, apparently inherited from the Hindu culture in which Buddhism originally developed. And, again, here in Thailand the existence of gods, spirits, demons, ghosts, and a host of other irrational beliefs are taken for granted by the majority of the populace. And, yet, those that seem most dedicated to walking the Eightfold Path also seem to be the least superstitious. Is it that investigating experience with mindfulness reveals reality, and that that reality lacks such unscientific entities as angels, demons, and dragons?

An important point here is not to go overboard in criticizing Asian countries in particular for their more superstitious beliefs, for if they had not kept alive the Buddha's teachings for the last two-and-a-half millennia, there'd be no living Buddhism to learn from. For this alone, we Western Buddhists should be deeply grateful. However, it is not only occidental Buddhists that can be detached from superstition - many, many orientals do the same. Think of the many wonderful Buddhist teachers to spread the teachings to the West - how many of them presented it in a rational manner, with little or no mention of fantastic beings or places?

Perhaps it's time to fuse the heart of Buddhism - the Noble Eightfold Path - with modern scientific discoveries, which are based on facts rather than opinion or tradition. The interconnectedness of all life that Buddhists have taught about for so long is now being independently confirmed by modern science, as is the efficacy of mindfulness & meditation to develop peaceful, happier people. What do you think, - is it time to ditch the supernatural in favor of the natural? Or is belief in the supernatural an integral part of the Path?

[Beachlover]

I think there will always be negative connotations about prostitution...in any society or culture, although I have not seen a significant difference between the connotations (or taboos) between the poorer working classes and upper class society in Thailand as you suggest.
Thanks for your insight. I think there's no hard and fast rule so we may both be right in what we say. But I believe the difference in the level of taboo between classes with prostitution lies more in being a prostitute than using a prostitute (though taboo does exist there too). Still no where near as high as in the West though.

Another interesting thing is higher acceptance of using prostitutes exists in many Asian countries, not just Thailand.

And don't forget that in some Thai marriages it is quite the norm for the man to have a second wife, normally refered to as the 'minor wife'.

[Beachlover]

Buddhism does not prohibit things. Because of this almost anything is possible and is the reason that its trappings take on many different appearances in various places. The heart of Buddhism is "meditation".

Further, the person most refer to when they speak of "The Buddha" was a man named Siddhartha Gautama. He is the founder of what is in reality a philosophy.
Thanks for dispelling some of the myths around Buddhism.

I was born a Buddhist but parents never educated me on it so my knowledge is limited to some light reading and conversations with close friends who've studied Buddhism closely (not the more institutionalised sort found in Thailand).

I may be wrong, but I suspect, Buddhism is more a philosophy and framework of teachings on living your life than a framework of rules to follow and made up deterrences to wavering from these rules as Christianity is.

I also suspect, Buddhism is oriented towards achieving greater self-awareness and understanding of yourself, your emotions, motives and needs. This is so you can set your expectations, make decisions and act accordingly for a happier and more fulfilling life. It's not about worshiping a higher being or complying with his/her wishes. It's about yourself. If this is the case (maybe it isn't), I like it.

Anyone wants to correct or add to this, please...

Only the intellectually lazy would suspect rather than investigate something before making your presumptions.
It only takes a few moments to google and read the basic tenants of Buddhism.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism1.htm

[Dodger]

Beachlover Wrote:


I may be wrong, but I suspect, Buddhism is more a philosophy and framework of teachings on living your life than a framework of rules to follow and made up deterrences to wavering from these rules as Christianity is.

I also suspect, Buddhism is oriented towards achieving greater self-awareness and understanding of yourself, your emotions, motives and needs. This is so you can set your expectations, make decisions and act accordingly for a happier and more fulfilling life. It's not about worshiping a higher being or complying with his/her wishes. It's about yourself. If this is the case (maybe it isn't), I like it.

Anyone wants to correct or add to this, please...

Impossible to correct or add anything to what you have just stated. Excellent points, and I couldn't agree more.

[Hmmm]

Sure sounds like another religion with a set of rules to me ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Precepts
Buddhism's core beliefs
http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism1.htm
"The Five Precepts:
These are rules to live by. They are somewhat analogous to the second half of the Ten Commandments in Judaism and Christianity -- that part of the Decalogue which describes behaviors to avoid. However, they are recommendations, not commandments. Believers are expected to use their own intelligence in deciding exactly how to apply these rules.
1. Do not kill. This is sometimes translated as "not harming" or an absence of violence.
2. Do not steal. This is generally interpreted as including the avoidance of fraud and economic exploitation.
3. Do not lie. This is sometimes interpreted as including name calling, gossip, etc.
4. Do not misuse sex. For monks and nuns, this means any departure from complete celibacy. For the laity, adultery is forbidden, along with any sexual harassment or exploitation, including that within marriage. The Buddha did not discuss consensual premarital sex within a committed relationship; Thus, Buddhist traditions differ on this. Most Buddhists, probably influenced by their local cultures, condemn same-sex sexual activity regardless of the nature of the relationship between the people involved.
5. Do not consume alcohol or other drugs. The main concern here is that intoxicants cloud the mind. Some have included as a drug other methods of divorcing ourselves from reality -- e.g. movies, television, the Internet. 1"

[Beachlover]

describes behaviors to avoid. However, they are recommendations, not commandments. Believers are expected to use their own intelligence in deciding exactly how to apply these rules.
I like this bit...

I've a close mate to who spent time as a monk (not in Thailand), which is funny since on the outside he's the most ruthless, non-monk like person I know (on the inside, he's actually very balanced)... I asked him how this marries up with the kind of character he's known as and his fairly strong stance against religion.

He told me the way Buddhism was taught to him (which I'm sure varies from place to place) is as a framework of teachings by which to live your life. You don't have to abide by them to the word. You learn about them. You carry them with you for life. And you use them when you see fit. He sees the teachings as a framework of "tools" which you can use to live your life.

I think I might do the monk thing myself sometime... Sounds useful.

If Budhism is not a religion what are all the Thais doing at Erawan shrine?

If Budhism is not a religion what are all the Thais doing at Erawan shrine?

I think the Erawan shrine is more categorized as a Hindu shrine. Brahman Hinduism is the official something-or-other of the royals. All those four sided 'spirit-house' looking shrines carefully placed outside shopping centers with some sort of figure in them that girls pray to for husbands on Thursday nights (I was told) are Brahman shrines, as well.

So Thais are Hindus? I thought they are Budhists?

[netrix]

thais are buddhist, but much of their folklore and traditions/customs
stem from hinduism. it's common knowledge that thais are terrified
of ghosts, for example. this obsessive "fear" of spirits stems from
animism/hindu tenets, not buddhism.

[youtube:1xgx89nz]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV07hWObhww[/youtube:1xgx89nz]

[i]"The Five Precepts:
These are rules to live by. They are somewhat analogous to the second half of the Ten Commandments in Judaism and Christianity -- that part of the Decalogue which describes behaviors to avoid. However, they are recommendations, not commandments.

My understanding of the difference is that a Christian must obey the Ten commandments because they are moral laws. It is immoral not to obey a commandment. It makes one deserving of punishment and maybe damnation.

A Buddhist follows the rules in the same way a sick man might follow his doctor's instructions to stay in bed and take some medicine. It is not moral advice - rather it is good advice intended to create the conditions that allow the suffering man to recover. But in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter whether he takes the advice or not. There is also the possibility that the man might recover even if he entirely ignores the advice.

In summary Thais say they are are Budhists but not really they have a little bit of this and that and actually have some sort of mongrel religion??? What does that mean when we read the OP??????