The Nation: It's time for Thailand to end state homophobia

[Hmmm]

Excerpt from:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/11 ... 42726.html (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2010/11/20/opinion/Its-time-for-Thailand-to-end-state-homophobia-30142726.html)

"State homophobia, as expressed by high-ranking politicians like Mr Trairong, creates an atmosphere in which local governments and non-state actors feel that oppression against LGBTs is acceptable. In 2008, when protesters shut down the Chiang Mai Gay Pride parade and threatened marchers with violence, the government failed to take action against government offices whose opposition to the event was used by protesters to justify violence. Now Chiang Mai's local authority feels so brazen as to arbitrarily ban transgenders from the processions during important government-sponsored festivities.

Internationally, Thailand has fared miserably in respect of LGBT rights. Hinting at appeasement of the Muslim world, Thailand in 2008 chose not to endorse a statement affirming the human rights principle of universality and non-discrimination regardless of sexual orientation and gender identity at the United Nations General Assembly, the UN's most important body. This week, when 79 countries voted to remove a reference to sexual orientation as a ground of protection in a UN resolution condemning extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions, Thailand again chose to sit on its hands rather than joining the 70 countries that opposed such a homophobic initiative. This is the only UN resolution with an explicit reference to sexual orientation. "

I believe if this takes off the worldwide gay community might call for a boycott of Thailand. There is a HUGE amount of power in the "pink dollar". That could have a massive impact on the politicians who won't stand up to support gay issues.

[Thai Dyed]

I believe if this takes off the worldwide gay community might call for a boycott of Thailand..

Oh sure... threaten the Thais. I am sure that will go over in a big way! And anyway, how many gays are going to boycott one of the few places left that they can pick up gorgeous young boys, day and night, for what amounts to pocket change?

[attachment=0:2sorsl3i]Thai reaction to gay boycott.jpg[/attachment:2sorsl3i]

The article from a day or two ago finally explains to me where shocking comments I hear that Thailand is no longer a gay friendly paradise come from. I can't say I agree with it. But was IS interesting, err, maybe scary, is that this isn't coming from exactly where I thought. Hmmm.

[Beachlover]

Sounds bad. However, Thai society is still one of the most openly accepting of gays. That's what counts the most.

I may be wrong, but whilst Thailand is fantastic for gays relative to other countries right now, it doesn't feel like gay rights have made much progress at all in decades. Maybe there still needs t be move movement to take it to the next level with anti-discrimination laws and such.


I believe if this takes off the worldwide gay community might call for a boycott of Thailand. There is a HUGE amount of power in the "pink dollar".
Not going to stop me going to Thailand when I want... and I don't think politicians will give a toss either.

[bkkguy]

The article from a day or two ago finally explains to me where shocking comments I hear that Thailand is no longer a gay friendly paradise come from. I can't say I agree with it.

Thailand has never been a "gay friendly paradise" - just ask most gay Thai people - but then many gay westerners are all too ready to class any country that has a ready supply of young male sex workers as "paradise", in which case the above article is fairly irrelevant as it relates to real life for Thai gays not sex workers and sex tourists!

bkkguy

[bkkguy]

Thailand is fantastic for gays relative to other countries right now

in what ways and compared to what countries?

bkkguy

Thailand has never been a "gay friendly paradise" - just ask most gay Thai people - but then many gay westerners are all too ready to class any country that has a ready supply of young male sex workers as "paradise", in which case the above article is fairly irrelevant as it relates to real life for Thai gays not sex workers and sex tourists!bkkguy

I think bkkguy writes some truth here. How many posters actually stray from the tourist path where Go-Go Bars and boys are in abundance and readily available. The tourist and Ex Pat is also inclined to throw all caution to wind and think he is in a gay paradise as he is so much more relaxed being who he is and doing what he has always wanted to do without the fears that he might of had back home worrying that someone might see or learn about his sexual preferences.

Over the years I have known quite a few middle and upper class Thais who were terrified that their familys might find out about their sexuality, much the same as their counterparts in the West or other countries.

One needs to make a distinction between the Thai people and their Government. Thai Government ministers have long railed against gay people, but most Thai people couldn't care less if people are gay or not. Exceptions to this are Thai Chinese and parts of the Bangkok middle class (from which groups most Government Ministers are drawn). Homophobic verbal and physical abuse is very rare in Thailand, and almost unknown in Isaan. They are both still quite common in Western countries, despite all the progressive laws.

[cdnmatt]

Homophobic verbal and physical abuse is very rare in Thailand, and almost unknown in Isaan.

Ok, maybe me living in Issan is why this article left me scratching my head.

I don't know, but I have yet to witness a single hint of homophobia, and have yet to meet a single person who's gay, and is shy about letting that fact be known. Of course, nobody prances around & shows off, but I have yet to meet someone who is the least bit worried because they're gay. Definitely haven't seen any prejudice against anyone, or someone yelling out "fucken fag!", or anything.

We're in a nice, middle class neighborhood, and the neighbors don't seem to care at all that Kim and myself are gay, and live together. Either they're excellent actors, or it actually doesn't bother them in the slightest. We go out to these small, little shit hole karaoke bars on the out-skirts of town, where the typical construction worker or police officer goes to party. None of them seem to care in the slightest either, as I've only ever gotten polite nods & smiles.

Parents don't care, younger siblings don't care, extended family doesn't care, friends don't care, strangers don't seem to care, etc. The only thing I have noticed is, there's a pretty large difference between picking up giks (one-night stands), and having a stable, long-term relationship. Once they know you enough to know you're with ONE guy only, and don't have 10 boyfriends going at the same time, their attitude towards you will change. Before that, they'll be a little cautious with you, in general.

I don't know, maybe Issan is just different from the rest of Thailand. If that's the case, I'm staying right here. :) I like being referred to as "a friend of mine", instead of, "a gay friend of mine". It's much nicer, because nobody seems to take your sexual orientation into account when judging your character.

[Brad the Impala]

I don't know, maybe Issan is just different from the rest of Thailand. If that's the case, I'm staying right here. :) I like being referred to as "a friend of mine", instead of, "a gay friend of mine". It's much nicer, because nobody seems to take your sexual orientation into account when judging your character.

It isn't different from the rest of Thailand, everywhere in thailand is the same.

My thai boyfriend invited some thai friends in Hungary to join us for the Gay parade in Budapest. It was entirely beyond any of their expectation that anywhere in the world would anyone be firebombed or physically attacked in anyway because of being gay. We were, they know better now, and appreciate the freedom from danger that they have in Thailand.

Which isn't to say that there isn't prejudice against poofs in Thailand, particularly amongst Chinese Thais, but it ain't nowhere near as threatening as it can be in the "civilized" west.

[Beachlover]

the above article is fairly irrelevant as it relates to real life for Thai gays not sex workers and sex tourists!
It's relevant for me. I take an interest in the gogo bars and such but otherwise don't engage in paid sex there. I like Thailand because there are some awesome gay venues/clubs/amenities, people are far more accepting of gays and Thai boys are cute, charming and lots of fun to be around by character.


in what ways and compared to what countries?
Good question. In my mind, I compare it with surrounding countries in Asia - Malaysia, Cambodia, Singapore, Vietnam, China, Taiwan (apparently it's quite good there) etc. in the region.

The main things, which come to mind for me are (1) availability of services and (2) people's attitudes.

Availability of Services: Putting aside the commercial sex scene - which is still a significant part of the gay scene there - Thailand has lots of great venues, services, amenities, nightlife, restaurants, accommodation and entertainment, which are very accommodating or specifically catering towards ordinary gay people.

I'm never worried whether the hotel where I'm staying will have an issue with two gay guys checking in and asking for a double bed, or me bringing a male guest home for the night. There are never any issues and more importantly, I have never had a disapproving or scandalous look from any hotel or restaurant staff. There are so many gay guys out in Thailand, it's almost a moot point for them.

If I want to get a professional massage by a male therapist that's always available (and more often than not, the therapist will be cute or handsome and often gay). If I want a more sex-oriented massage that's easy to find too. There are gay saunas and other gay-oriented businesses everywhere. It's fantastic.

In Cambodia and Vietnam there are few gay businesses, though this is gradually growing. In China, almost none, to my knowledge. Malaysia has quite a few but primarily in the capital, KL. Singapore has quite a few but no where near as many as in Thailand. In Thailand finding amenities like a male-oriented massage or a sauna is effortless, while elsewhere you often need to plan ahead and look around.

People's attitudes: It's true not all Thais are accepting of gays but the vast number of Thais you'll meet on a day to day basis are. They're a well recognised part of society. They may be discriminated against here and there (in some ways significantly) but for the most part most gay Thais seem to be out and comfortable with it.

It's not so nice in other countries. In China and Vietnam most of the population is completely ignorant about homosexuality. I feel that in Cambodia, Malaysia and Singapore, people are gradually opening up but in many or most sections of the society there is still quite a lot of taboo associated with it. This is just coming from my own experiences where I've spoken with and gotten to know lots of ordinary locals in most of these countries.

Thailand's the first place where I felt entirely comfortable with being gay and free to be myself.

In addition to all this, the availability and accessibility of Thai boys (I refer to non-commercial encounters) is second to none. They are so easy to meet and to get to know. There are lots of places where you can meet them. They are always so friendly and keen to strike up a conversation with you if they see you are receptive. When you get to know them, they make you feel so welcome in their group of friends. When I chat up a boy I like, I don't just chat to him, I try to get to know his friends and be as friendly and charming as I can with them too. They like that.

Other than Bangkok, I don't know any other city where I can go out to a disco on any night of the week and be 90%+ certain I'll meet and successfully chat up a cute boy I like, get to know him and his friends, have heaps of fun with them and end up having an awesome night with him, just a random person I just met, out of the blue. That degree of certainty blows me away. When I go out alone in other nearby Asian cities like Singapore, KL and Phnom Penh, I think I might get lucky tonight, or I might not. Some nights go great. Others are a bit disappointing.

[Beachlover]

I think bkkguy writes some truth here. How many posters actually stray from the tourist path where Go-Go Bars and boys are in abundance and readily available. The tourist and Ex Pat is also inclined to throw all caution to wind and think he is in a gay paradise as he is so much more relaxed being who he is and doing what he has always wanted to do without the fears that he might of had back home worrying that someone might see or learn about his sexual preferences.
Yeah and look, I've nothing against the paid sex scene, but you're right. A lot of visitors and expats never stray from it and think it's completely normal and accepted. Thais are very subtle in projecting their opinions and some of these farang have no self-awareness at all so they'll do this stuff or talk about it in public like it's the most normal thing in the world. It's not. Most Thais look down on the farangs who do nothing but lurch from bar to bar having sex with boy after boy after boy.

I'm not saying don't do it. If it makes you happy, then great, go nuts. I know in your shoes I probably would. But a little self awareness goes a long way... Some of the expats posting on one of the other forums (GBT) just seem to be so far gone from reality that they have no idea what it is to engage, interact and have relationships with normal society.


Over the years I have known quite a few middle and upper class Thais who were terrified that their familys might find out about their sexuality, much the same as their counterparts in the West or other countries.
Yeah, I think the middle-class Thai-Chis are less tolerant of gays and I've met some like that. But I've also met quite a few who's families had no issue with it at all. Sons of doctors, lawyers, business owners etc. I reckon there'd be far less Chinese who are intolerant to gays in Thailand than in other countries.


but most Thai people couldn't care less if people are gay or not.
Yeah, totally true. And that's what counts.

[Beachlover]

Ok, maybe me living in Issan is why this article left me scratching my head.

I don't know, but I have yet to witness a single hint of homophobia...
Yeah and that's fantastic. It really is wonderful. But don't forget that's what you would expect in Isaan right? It's also what you'd expect in Pattaya with the type of boys you were hanging around there. If these are the only Thais you've had exposure to then it's totally understandable to be scratching your head wondering where the homophobia is.

I think if you went to Bangkok and interacted with some of the middle-class Thais or went to Chiang Mai and did the same, you'd probably find the scene (in terms of attitude towards gays) is different in middle and upper class Thai society. It's not entirely intolerant... it's just a bit less tolerant and care free than the Isaan folks are.


It was entirely beyond any of their expectation that anywhere in the world would anyone be firebombed or physically attacked in anyway because of being gay. We were, they know better now, and appreciate the freedom from danger that they have in Thailand.
It's great they got this exposure, Brad, so they can see what they take for granted in Thailand isn't something that exists in every country.

[Wesley]

I believe if this takes off the worldwide gay community might call for a boycott of Thailand. There is a HUGE amount of power in the "pink dollar". That could have a massive impact on the politicians who won't stand up to support gay issues.

I dont know , but I am sure that bar owners shudder at the thought of a world wide Boycott of Thailand in response to this. most would loose all they have before the issue was ever settled. Also those that want to go any way despite the politics likely will go any way. It is not I don't agree something should be done, but until you hvae a formidable format to make the statement come alive is just another post on SGT. God forbid it should actually happen.

[cdnmatt]

My thai boyfriend invited some thai friends in Hungary to join us for the Gay parade in Budapest. It was entirely beyond any of their expectation that anywhere in the world would anyone be firebombed or physically attacked in anyway because of being gay. We were, they know better now, and appreciate the freedom from danger that they have in Thailand.

Yeah, doesn't surprise me that happened in Budapest. That place is such a shit hole of a city, isn't it? Everything's gray & run-down, nobody smiles, homeless people are as common as pigeons, the "new" subway cars they buy are the pieces of junk places like Frankfurt are throwing away, the cops are corrupt cunts, and the list goes on. I know the Thai cops are corrupt too, but at least it's corruption with a friendly smile and relaxed attitude. Budapest cops would prefer to stomp your head into the ground, over giving you a smile.

I absolutely hate that city. Was stuck living there for about a year in our "home turned into porn studio". Was depressed as hell. I remember being thrilled when I got out of there, as the train was rolling into Prague. I had a permanent smile on my face for about a week probably, because Prague is an absolutely beautiful city. I'll have to take Kim there some day.


Yeah and that's fantastic. It really is wonderful. But don't forget that's what you would expect in Isaan right?

Why would I expect that in Issan? People have this misconception that Issan is this poor, impoverished region, and it's not. Before coming here, that's actually what I thought too. I was expecting a Thai version of Bucharest or Serbia, where everything's rundown, everyone is poor & struggling, nobody seems happy, etc. I was completely wrong. It's actually quite nice up here, and within city limits at least, I definitely wouldn't classify it as a poor & impoverished region. Just wander the streets, or even better go for a night out at the clubs, and watch how much money people are throwing around.

Lot's to read here, not much time, but I'll thank Beach Lover for responding to bkkguy's demands for a list and note that it seems to me that the poster in more need of coming up with lists is the one demanding them.

The proximity of my response to comments about sex workers should not imply reliance of my assumptions on that phenomena except that the phenomena indicates tolerant attitudes which will be number one on my list when I get some time to put it together.

[Beachlover]

Was stuck living there for about a year in our "home turned into porn studio".
I'm sorry, Matt, but you're going to have to elaborate on that. Porn studio? You made porn? Details please. :happy7:


Why would I expect that in Issan? People have this misconception that Issan is this poor, impoverished region, and it's not. Before coming here, that's actually what I thought too. I was expecting a Thai version of Bucharest or Serbia, where everything's rundown, everyone is poor & struggling, nobody seems happy, etc. I was completely wrong. It's actually quite nice up here, and within city limits at least, I definitely wouldn't classify it as a poor & impoverished region. Just wander the streets, or even better go for a night out at the clubs, and watch how much money people are throwing around.
Why? Because Isaan is known for being more tolerant towards gays and less conservative than the more Chinese-oriented part of Thai culture.

Granted, Isaan isn't entirely impoverished, but it is overall, far poorer than the rest of Thailand. You live in one of the main urban centres and are far less likely to see poverty there, just like visitors to Cambodia are far less likely to see great poverty in the urban centres like Phnom Penh and Siem Reap. I bet you'd see some poverty and people living uncertain lives if you traveled out into the more remote countryside. The other factor to consider is many of the poor may be fine most of the time, but when some great disaster comes along, like illness or injury requiring medical treatment, a death in the family, a natural disaster or some kind of loss, they are the most susceptible.

The characteristics you describe living amongst a lot of Isaan folks aren't consistent throughout Thailand. I reckon if you had a more Chi-Thai type boyfriend and lived in Bangkok with the more earnest working class or better off middle class you wouldn't have any of the issues you describe with kids being pawed off to be looked after and Mum and Dad demanding money to piss away all the time... It's just like back home in Canada and Australia, you have different types of people.

My sense is that western countries have a lot of anti-discrimination laws, because there is a lot of homophobic discrimination. Thailand doesn't have an outcry for these laws by-and-large because it doesn't need them. It would be like enacting laws to protect left-handed people in the Europe - why would you bother?

The one thing that would be a step forward would be civil-partnership legislation. Given the gay-friendly environment and the prevalence of katoeys, I can't see it would be too controversial.

The one thing that would be a step forward would be civil-partnership legislation. Given the gay-friendly environment and the prevalence of katoeys, I can't see it would be too controversial.

I agree with what you are saying, but a Civil Partnership in Thailand wouldn't really give you any more rights than those you already have as a single Farang. You still wouldn't be able to own land etc., and depending what age you are the visa wouldn't be much different either. Nothing to stop you having a 'marriage ceremony' of sorts carried out by a monk as a some gays do, not that that has any real legal meaning other than maybe making you feel better about your relationship.

I agree with what you are saying, but a Civil Partnership in Thailand wouldn't really give you any more rights than those you already have as a single Farang.

Understood. I was thinking more about Thai-Thai relationships when I wrote this. I'm not really a big fan of marriage/CP for myself, but concerned that everyone should enjoy equal rights.

Understood. I was thinking more about Thai-Thai relationships when I wrote this. I'm not really a big fan of marriage/CP for myself, but concerned that everyone should enjoy equal rights.

Definitely agree whole heartedly with that one BeginnersMind

[Beachlover]

Yeah, I agree! I hope it's legalised here in Australia by the time I need it.

It looks like one of the two major parties is FINALLY stepping up to push this issue in Australia now, which is fantastic. Just wish it was the liberal party, rather than the labour party, which stepped up first. Ironically, this is the ONE issue, which would make me consider voting labour.

It looks like one of the two major parties is FINALLY stepping up to push this issue in Australia now, which is fantastic. Just wish it was the liberal party, rather than the labour party, which stepped up first. Ironically, this is the ONE issue, which would make me consider voting labour.

Likewise it was the Labour Party that brought it in in the UK too, along with equalising the age of consent from 18 (for gays) to 16 putting it on a par with the straight age of consent. I still wouldn't vote for them though.

[cdnmatt]

Now that everyone's talking about same-sex marriage, here's a speech on it that I've always enjoyed. Was given by Paul Martin, who was the prime minister of Canada while the law was passed.

http://www.yawningbread.org/apdx_2005/imp-176.htm

I was pretty impressed with him over this. He stood up, rejected civil unions, and went for full marriage. We got the law passed too. :) I was already married when it passed, because British Columbia allowed same-sex marriages, but without that law, I doubt my ex-husband would have gotten permanent residency status to Canada (which ironically, he's now going to throw away).

Here's a couple good snippets:


I rise today in support of Bill C-38, the Civil Marriage Act. I rise in support of a Canada in which liberties are safeguarded, rights are protected and the people of this land are treated as equals under the law.

This is an important day. The attention of our nation is focused on this chamber, in which John Diefenbaker introduced the Bill of Rights, in which Pierre Trudeau fought to establish the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Our deliberations will be not merely about a piece of legislation or sections of legal text - more deeply, they will be about the kind of nation we are today, and the nation we want to be.

.....

The second argument ventured by opponents of the bill is that government ought to hold a national referendum on this issue. I reject this - not out of a disregard for the view of the people, but because it offends the very purpose of the Charter.

The Charter was enshrined to ensure that the rights of minorities are not subjected, are never subjected, to the will of the majority. The rights of Canadians who belong to a minority group must always be protected by virtue of their status as citizens, regardless of their numbers. These rights must never be left vulnerable to the impulses of the majority.

We embrace freedom and equality in theory, Mr. Speaker. We must also embrace them in fact.

Third, some have counseled the government to extend to gays and lesbians the right to "civil union." This would give same-sex couples many of the rights of a wedded couple, but their relationships would not legally be considered marriage. In other words, they would be equal, but not quite as equal as the rest of Canadians.

Mr. Speaker, the courts have clearly and consistently ruled that this option would offend the equality provisions of the Charter. For instance, the British Columbia Court of Appeal stated that, and I quote "Marriage is the only road to true equality for same-sex couples. Any other form of recognition of same-sex relationships ...falls short of true equality."

Put simply, we must always remember that "separate but equal" is not equal.

.....

Ultimately Mr. Speaker, there is only one issue before this House in this debate. For most Canadians, in most parts of our country, same-sex marriage is already the law of the land. Thus, the issue is not whether rights are to be granted. The issue is whether rights that have been granted are to be taken away.

.....

The notwithstanding clause is part of the Charter of Rights. But there's a reason that no prime minister has ever used it. For a prime minister to use the powers of his office to explicitly deny rather than affirm a right enshrined under the Charter would serve as a signal to all minorities that no longer can they look to the nation's leader and to the nation's Constitution for protection, for security, for the guarantee of their freedoms. We would risk becoming a country in which the defence of rights is weighed, calculated and debated based on electoral or other considerations.

That would set us back decades as a nation. It would be wrong for the minorities of this country. It would be wrong for Canada.

The Charter is a living document, the heartbeat of our Constitution. It is also a proclamation. It declares that as Canadians, we live under a progressive and inclusive set of fundamental beliefs about the value of the individual. It declares that we all are lessened when any one of us is denied a fundamental right.

.....

When we as a nation protect minority rights, we are protecting our multicultural nature. We are reinforcing the Canada we value. We are saying, proudly and unflinchingly, that defending rights - not just those that happen to apply to us, not just that everyone approves of, but all fundamental rights - is at the very soul of what it means to be a Canadian.

This is a vital aspect of the values we hold dear and strive to pass on to others in the world who are embattled, who endure tyranny, whose freedoms are curtailed, whose rights are violated.