The whole "saving face" thing

[cdnmatt]

I'm curious, what do you guys think of the whole "saving face" thing they have going on in Thailand? Do you think it's good, bad, maybe indifferent? Curious, intriguing, dispicable, or what?

I'm somewhat indifferent to it. It's good in a way, because it does help keep a good, peaceful balance in day-to-day society. Because of it, you're required to show a common level of respect to everyone, which does make for a nice environment. The part I don't like is when a couple Thais piss each other off, and it just turns into a gong show. God forbid you man up, admit you made a mistake, and apologize... no, no, no... much better to scream, yell, and holler like a lunatic, because you need to save face, after all. Then of course, wake up the next day, meet with each other, and pretend nothing ever happened. That's pretty much what happens...

That's one thing I've noticed with Thais. You can disagree, and have a cordial argument with someone. But once it passes a certain threshold, they go ballistic. The reason you're having a disagreement no longer matters, and you can be as sensible as you'd like, but it won't mean shit. All that matters at that point is who "wins", and who can walk away with the most respect. The actual problem doesn't matter whatsoever anymore. Once a certain threshold it crossed, they're no longer interested in the initial problem, and only care about what it takes to not lose face.

So... opinions, thoughts?

[chillnorth]

It's hard to think of a much easier way to lose face, and maybe a testicle, than by telling a pissed-off katoey to "man up".


"Saving face" is right up there with kreng-jai as a concept I find very comfortable living amidst most of the time and reminds me occasionally that I'll never really have a clue how Thai people think and I might as well keep pretending I understand since it won't matter whether or not I figure it out. Odds are without both of them a lot of us would have been fed to the ducks shortly after our arrivals. No offense intended.

[allieb]

I'm curious, what do you guys think of the whole "saving face" thing they have going on in Thailand? Do you think it's good, bad, maybe indifferent? Curious, intriguing, dispicable, or what?

I find the whole thing sickning. I have ben told so many times by Farang and Thais themselves not to let a Thai loose face. I try not to let anything get to a point where one of us has to loose face and it's sometimes like walking on eggshells.

Filipinos are just the same, I have 15 working for me. and when they get pissed they get violent. One in fact took a carving knife to another in an argument. I had to sack him and have him deported as an example in order to keep control over the others.

I have some questions for you cdnmat. Thais have their culture and we have ours I am ready to admit when I am wrong and apologise. I find that they generally always have to win.

Do you always let your boyfriend win so as to not loose face?
So many Farang always let the Thai win, why should we, don't out feeling or culture count?

Thais have a lot of good point but this face thing is one massive downside in my opinion.

[Cees-Holland]

It is a difficult thing for me, one wrong turn can have a big impact on the one you love (or the people around you).

A different angle:
I had a extremely-childish-over-reaction to some insignificant situation, long time ago, causing my BF to "lose face" to his family.
Because of that he became very insecure towards his family and the group his family belongs to. Afraid to face them, to shy to speak with them.

While I would just brush it of by saying "That was stupid of me" or "I am not proud of that" for Thai people the rumble can go on for a (very) long time. So they want to prevent at any cost.

I am trying to re-think my words first before I speak or before I act.
None the less: Cultural differences, a miss interpreted gesture or sentence can easily cause "lose face". With that, pain to who ever is on the receiving end.

An even bigger problem arises if you want to get "your right" in a shop or so.
E.g. You agree on a price and suddenly they increase it (this is the short version :8( ).
Staying friendly but still get "your right" is something I don't master yet.
"So you try to trick me, you think I am idiot. Do you lie to all your customers, like that?" ... doesn't give me the desired result. :boxing:

[Beachlover]

Unlike some of the extreme examples allieb has obviously experienced, I'm lucky I haven't had to encounter this aspect too much when spending time with Thais. Only a couple of times on minor things and generally I know if I need to point out someone has done something wrong I either do it in private or do it in a light hearted manner so they can laugh or smile their way towards fixing it.

I just accept the loss of face thing exists and work around it tactfully. Don't know how I'd deal with it in more intense situations like at work and such like allieb. But I've always been mindful of face when dealing with anyone, Asians and Westerns alike. No one likes to lose face. If someone wants to "man up" and accept they're wrong, that's a respectable act but most of the time it's best to let them take the initiative on this.

In any situation when someone might lose a lot of face because of something you're doing, you should always "build a bridge" for them to retreat across (i.e. you win the argument, but they have a respectable "out" path). - it's "Negotiation101". I suppose this principle is even MORE critical when you're dealing with a Thai.

[cdnmatt]

Filipinos are just the same, I have 15 working for me. and when they get pissed they get violent. One in fact took a carving knife to another in an argument. I had to sack him and have him deported as an example in order to keep control over the others.

Ouch, that sounds fairly harsh, but definitely believable. Yeah, I don't think I could ever actually do business in a place like Thailand. It'd be more of a headache than it's worth.


Thais have their culture and we have ours I am ready to admit when I am wrong and apologise. I find that they generally always have to win.

Yeah, true. Once an argument crosses a certain threshold, the actual problem becomes irrelevant. All that matters at that point is who's going to "win". Fuck rationality and common sense, at this point, they just want to "win".


Do you always let your boyfriend win so as to not loose face?

He knows not to do it with me. He's never done it in public, and used to do it in private, but doesn't anymore. He's learned that throwing some stupid, childish tantrum doesn't get him far with me, so he doesn't bother. During the times he did in the past, I'd just throw my phone on the table so he couldn't call, leave, and come back piss drunk at 4am with 5000 baht less in the wallet. He's great now though. If he's pissed off at me for whatever reason, he knows it's best to leave while he calms down, than later on sit down, and talk it out like normal adults. He's figured out that throwing a childish fit doesn't help.

He still does it with his friends though, then comes home to me bitching and complaining about how hurt he is, but he bitched his friend out really good, and blah, blah... Then even when it's blatantly obvious he's in the wrong, god forbid I suggest he apologize. He'll just get all flustered, and scream out, "What?!? You want me to apoligize?!?! No! Never!!!". Well, whatever then, your life so up to you. :-) If you want to throw away a good friendship because you're being a fucken idiot, up to you.


An even bigger problem arises if you want to get "your right" in a shop or so.
E.g. You agree on a price and suddenly they increase it (this is the short version :8( ).
Staying friendly but still get "your right" is something I don't master yet.

Yeah, it takes a bit of getting used to. For example, say Kim and myself get a haircut together, it'll be 60 baht each. If I go by myself though, that can go up to 170 baht. You can't actually complain, because that won't get you anywhere. You have to joke around with them (in Thai), and once they figure out you're not a tourist, and decide you're a good guy, then they'll drop the price for you.

That's actually one of the good things about the "saving face" thing. If there's ever a problem with the check-bin or something, it'll be handled FAR more cordially and respectfully than in the West. I'm sure we've all see some loud-mouthed lady before, bitching to the waiter infront of the whole restaurant, because her burger wasn't cooked to her specific liking. That type of thing never happens in Thailand.

[pong]

as such it it not specific Thai-it is all over Asia-or at least the rice-eating part of it. The Koreans are, I think, the very worst at it. They have really toes that measure 2 mtrs to get stepped upon. I have more experience with Indonesia, and yes, there is also a culture of dont say/dont look etc. there. But they have more refined ways of remanding you if you (even inadvertently) made a faux-pas.
In fact, comparatetively, in Thailnd it is less worse as elsewhere. If you hit that fighting stage, dear Canuckmatt, then you must realise you really have gone too far. (IMHO-as all things, of course).

I'm curious, what do you guys think of the whole "saving face" thing they have going on in Thailand? Do you think it's good, bad, maybe indifferent? Curious, intriguing, dispicable, or what?

I think it is a real problem for Thais themselves. Writ large, it creates problems when there are political differences and the parties involved cannot negotiate and compromise to reach an agreed resolution.

I don't have a developed theory on it (just yet!), but I think of it as a character trait that is missing in many Thais, rather than an immutable aspect of the culture. In the west, somewhere along the line (most) children learn to take responsibility for their mistakes, to apologize when in the wrong, and to make amends to repair a relationship. This may cause some short-term discomfort, but has a longer-term payoff. The Thais maybe value the short-term comfort, but pay for it with longer term resentment.

In the west, you might observe this kind of 'face saving' behaviour in a dysfunctional corporation - it has its roots in maintaining appearance, avoiding blame, and maintaining a calm working environment. It also creates a lot of passive-aggressive behaviour from the pent-up resentment.

To finish on a positive note, I think this kind of thing can be learnt. Ironically I think meditation and relaxation of ego-identity are the steps towards it.

[DamienZ]

Hey Matt great topic and I wrote this really nice informative reply last night only to have it deleted when I tried to submit.
Oh well.
Let's see if I can remember...hmm oh yea!
I lived for many years with a man from Shanghai (sounds like a good opener for a song!). It was in this relationship, in an all chinese building, with all chinese tenants, in an all chinsese part of town that I learned how important it is to either allow someone who follows this cutom to "save face" or not to "loose face".
Not a custom I would choose to violate when dealing with anyone of asian persuasion (hehe)-it's just good maners. Besides it's usually the westerners who are loosing it! I'm sure it It must be a combination of amusment and embarresment both at the same time to see farang go crazy. From what I understand a lot of asian's have their own issues with the tradition, for it yields some serious cultural drawbacks.

But what I wanted to point out was the many other customs or social mores if you could call it that, which are far more fascinating and interesting and could fall in the same topic thread here. Among them is my favorite.. "Guang Xi". Which is translatable in many different asian languages but basically is a system of meticulously cultivated networks holding personal spheres of influence. The original Facebook! I'm sure the many board members who have business dealings in Asia are familiar with this system. It is how things get done, through the back door, and off the wire.
I had a Thai aquantance who was quite affluent and had worked very hard at accumulating and cultivating much "Guang Xi" as a part of his job. It seemed he spent as much time doing this as anything. After marrying and leaving the country, he would make regular "maintneance visits" to keep his lines clean as he put it. And they are still open and clean today from what I understand.
Asian and Thai culture is fascinating in all it's intricacies and antiquated mores and customs which are, in fact the underpinnings of their society. I think as westerners we could still learn quite a bit form the aesthetics of it.

DZ
:glasses7:

[Beachlover]

Hey Matt great topic and I wrote this really nice informative reply last night only to have it deleted when I tried to submit.
When that happens, just hit the "back" button. Works for me.

If it happens often, copy the text (select all text and hit CTR + C key) before you hit submit so if it goes blank and you can still paste the text into another window.

[cdnmatt]

In the west, somewhere along the line (most) children learn to take responsibility for their mistakes, to apologize when in the wrong, and to make amends to repair a relationship. This may cause some short-term discomfort, but has a longer-term payoff. The Thais maybe value the short-term comfort, but pay for it with longer term resentment.

Yeah, I definitely think you're onto something there. I could be wrong as I don't spend much time with kids, but I'm pretty sure Thai kids don't hear their parents yelling, "you get over there and apologize to little Surachai right now!" very often, which I'm assuming all of us heard while we were kids.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think many of them are taught basic coping skills. From my experience at least, many (most?) don't seem capable of coping with anger & frustration very well. For example, every few days in our nice while-collar neighborhood, there's some idiot screaming at the top of his lungs about god knows what. When they get angry, they just don't seem to know what to do, so they scream & holler like a lunatic.

Kim's another good example. He still doesn't know how to cope with anger very well, although is getting there. Nowadays when he gets angry at me, he'll generally just scream for a few seconds, maybe slam a door or two, then go downstairs. I'll give it 30 mins for him to calm down, then go cuddle him, talk a bit, and all is well. Works great so far! You can tell though, when he gets angry (at least with me), it's obvious he's not really sure how to act. He knows I don't give a flying fuck about who can puff their chest out the most, or who can yell the loudest, so he doesn't bother trying that. He just gets all flustered, and leaves.

Anyway, I'm off to sleep! Long day.

[Cees-Holland]

Anyway, I'm off to sleep! Long day.

It's 9 in the morning. The new day started 3 hours ago :)

[Beachlover]

In the west, somewhere along the line (most) children learn to take responsibility for their mistakes, to apologize when in the wrong, and to make amends to repair a relationship. This may cause some short-term discomfort, but has a longer-term payoff. The Thais maybe value the short-term comfort, but pay for it with longer term resentment.
Yeah, I definitely think you're onto something there. I could be wrong as I don't spend much time with kids, but I'm pretty sure Thai kids don't hear their parents yelling, "you get over there and apologize to little Surachai right now!" very often, which I'm assuming all of us heard while we were kids.
Yeah, it's possible BM might be onto something there. I definitely didn't learn that sort of thing from my Asian parents. Rather, I learnt it growing up amongst Westerners in a Western school etc. Don't know, never gave it much thought. But I know Thais are notorious for being this way, maybe more so than other Asian nationalities.


Anyway, I'm off to sleep! Long day.
Man, must be a bitch living in Asia an servicing clients in North America. I've had to coordinate phone meetings with co-suppliers in Canada before. It can be a pain.


Kim's another good example.... he'll generally just scream for a few seconds, maybe slam a door or two, then go downstairs....You can tell though, when he gets angry (at least with me), it's obvious he's not really sure how to act.... He just gets all flustered, and leaves.
Heh... cute.

[cdnmatt]

Anyway, I'm off to sleep! Long day.

It's 9 in the morning. The new day started 3 hours ago :)

You tell that to everyone in the West, who pay your bills, and put food on your table. :) Besides, I like working in the middle of the night. No Kim bugging me about this & that, no neighbors showing up to the house wanting to drink beer, no nothing. It's nice, and quiet. :)