One of many reasons not to have sympathy for Issan Thais...

[cdnmatt]

I know people love to say, "ohhh, the poor, poor Issan people -- we need to help them!". After a while of living here though, I have to say, I don't have much sympathy for them at all anymore. I don't think there's anything to feel sorry for. People love to say there's no opportunity for them up here, which is bullshit.

There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor. For one of many examples, say you're a young piss poor Thai living in Issan. At some point in life, you're going to run into 15,000 baht. You can invest that into buying shirts in bulk, and sell those shirts at the market everyday. You can make 2000 - 3000 baht per week doing this. Once you have the cashflow, you can easily expand that into 4000 - 6000 per week. It's work, and long hours, but definitely possible. From there, you save up for a year, and you have enough to buy a small Thai BBQ restaurant for 100,000 baht.

I've seen this several times now though, and the reality of what happens is, they pickup say 20,000 baht in shirts. Then sell them all, and for some inconceivable reason decide all sales money is profit. They'll piss all the money away, then end up broke with no money to buy additional inventory, then complain about how hard done by they are. So the next time someone gives you the "oh poor me from Issan" story, tell them to fuck off. They did it to themselves. If they had some discipline, they could make a good life for themselves without problem. It's long hours, and lots of work, but we all have to go through that in life, and that opportunity is here for them too.

That's why I'm glad I've been such a cunt to Kim about him selling shirts, and I know he appreciates it. He appreciates someone looking out for him like this. I invested a simple 15,000 baht into him, but under the condition he's going to give a daily expense & revenue report every day. I printed out some forms, and made him a little booklet, and he's doing excellent with it. Gotta say, I'm quite proud of him for his discipline, and I know he appreciates having someone looking out for him like this, because we both know otherwise, he'd piss it all away and end up like his friends. Give it another year or two, and I'll be able to trust him with a restaurant. :-) Or who knows, maybe he'll do that on his own.

Anyway, point it, don't feel sorry for Issan Thais. Granted, some are in poverty for unforseen reasons, but for the majority, it's their own doing. They can make a decent living for themselves if they wanted to.

[Marsilius]

...At some point in life, you're going to run into 15,000 baht....

I invested a simple 15,000 baht into [Kim]...

So how exactly might Kim, or any other "young piss poor" Isaan boy, have "run into" 15,000 baht if you had not been around?

[mahjongguy]

My b/f grew up poor in Isaan, and he would definitely agree with your every word.

But I don't. You say yourself that your b/f is succeeding due to your guidance. No doubt others would likewise succeed if they were shown the way.

That's the whole tragedy of systemic poverty. It's self-perpetuating.

But then, blaming the poor for being poor is a timeless tradition.

My b/f grew up poor in Isaan, and he would definitely agree with your every word.But I don't. You say yourself that your b/f is succeeding due to your guidance. No doubt others would likewise succeed if they were shown the way.
That's the whole tragedy of systemic poverty. It's self-perpetuating.But then, blaming the poor for being poor is a timeless tradition.

Absolutely, Matt has already pointed out in his post how he guided Kim, Kim is lucky to have him as from what we have read he would be doing exactly what the others are doing without Matts guidence. Perhaps if Matt set up a school to help youngster start up their own little business and how to manage it he might be very suprised at the outcome. One of the worlds poverty organisations runs programs in various parts of the worlds poorest regions encouraging and helping with small loans the poor, especially girls and women to start little businesses which stops them from entering the sex trade etc.. and has proved quite successful.

Not everyone has Matts education or business skills so without some guidence their poverty circle continues. One might add that a very 'few' are born with it, hence the 'rags to riches' stories that one reads and hears about now and again.

I'm still waiting to learn the source of this initial 15,000B that "any piss-poor young thai" apparently comes across...

Is it in a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow perhaps? Or under a leprechaun?

In any case, from what I have observed the 15,000B would immediately be hoovered up by the boy's mother, never to be seen again. There must be some fucking rich old Thai women about.

:laughing3:

[pudel]

I am not quite sure about the guidance, I think it must be more, the person must be willing to learn and have also some
brain :headbang: we had this 'helper syndrom' when were earlier in Sri Lanka (about 15 times) we gave 2 sons money
for opening a business in Hikkaduwa (a popular touristic place) and this was going on (the help) for about 10 years, without a success - we stopped now sending money for 2 years and they still live, but without business :laughing3: <pudel

[Beachlover]

Have you noticed outsiders tend to have MUCH more sympathy to the poorer class or minorities than the locals do? It happens in many countries. That's often because all you see is the fact they are poor but the locals see WHY they're poor and often see it as being their own fault. Both perspectives are valid.

For example in Australia, many foreigners feel sorry for how disadvantaged the Aboriginal natives are. So many of them are in jail or unemployed. Even the locals who don't know them well feel sorry for them. But if you talk to many of the locals who know the Aboriginals well and deal with them often, you find many of them have little or no sympathy for their plight. They see all the welfare funding going to waste. Millions of dollars spent constructing new housing for them and all they do is trash the houses and leave them unlivable within months...

In Malaysia, as an outsider we feel sorry for the poorer Malays who are looked down on by the Chinese population. But talk to the Chinese population and they'll often say the Malays are not so hard working, are more keen on having fun and being lazy. That's why they're poor. They have no sympathy for them.


There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor.
Unfortunately most Issan Thais probably have very little positive influence in terms of prosperity, career and success around them. Without being surrounded by these values, they would have to seek them out, which is something only a small percentage of people might do on their own accord and initiative.

So you are right, in that it's not so much about TANGIBLE obstacles like lack of opportunities. But there are LESS TANGIBLE obstacles like education, mindset, type of influences they're surrounded by, which hinder them.

My previous Thai BF in Australia was from Issan. He was a bright boy at school and finished university when he was just 20. Started an internet cafe in his village, which he then passed onto his family to manage. Went to Bangkok and found work as a journalist (traveled all over Thailand), then became a PR consultant and then event marketing.

After excelling and getting bored of three jobs in the space of two years, the impulsive maniac saw an astrologist who told him his future wasn't in Thailand, so he takes off for Australia to study and begin a new career here. So in many cases it's not "tangible" obstacles, which are stopping them from going as far as they want.


So how exactly might Kim, or any other "young piss poor" Isaan boy, have "run into" 15,000 baht if you had not been around?
You don't think it's possible? Low-skilled workers earn 5,000-7,000 baht/month. Save 1,000 baht/month for a year and a half and you have your seed money. Or take 2-3 years if need be. If that's their best opportunity to progress then accumulating the funds to resource it should be top priority.

The obstacle is not so much that it's not physically possible, but mentally, whether they set themselves on a goal and follow through on it. Drive and desire.


I am not quite sure about the guidance, I think it must be more, the person must be willing to learn and have also some
Definitely true...

But well done on Matt offering that guidance and being firm about it. The focus, discipline and business acumen you're imparting in Kim is fantastic. Sounds like it's working and the 15,000 loan may grow into something big enough to purchase a bigger business like a Thai BBQ place or something... Great!

:bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot:

My 1,500,000 boyfriends desperately want to return to their native soil. They have bought 150,000,000 shirts and are on the way to Issan now.

:bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot:

Plan A: They start a shirt business. Five questions: Where can I find 1,500,000 foreign mentors for them? Are they expensive? How can I create the purchasing power for 150,000,000 shirts? Should I send 150,000,000 tourists to Issan? Or only 15,000,000?

:bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot:

Plan B: The shirts are presents for their families. The families don't need 100 shirts and try to sell them on the market. See Plan A. Then my 1,500,000 boyfriends return to Bangkok and tell me their entertaining stories.

:bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot:

:My 1,500,000 boyfriends desperately want to return to their native soil.

Yet again another time waster with nothing better to do than post idiotic diatribe...

Agreed China's post is pretty nonsensical. But compared to most of the other posts in this thread, it's really rather intelligent.

Agreed China's post is pretty nonsensical. But compared to most of the other posts in this thread, it's really rather intelligent.

Another 'bright light' in the room!

[catawampuscat]

Agreed China's post is pretty nonsensical. But compared to most of the other posts in this thread, it's really rather intelligent.

Another 'bright light' in the room!

I have to disagree with my friend combat on this one.
China is quickly rising to 'very interesting poster' status in my jaundiced viewpoint.
I am in agreement with justinco..
The problem here is Flooding and Flooders, not a quick wit and a sagacious mind. :glasses7:

[Beachlover]

:My 1,500,000 boyfriends desperately want to return to their native soil.

Yet again another time waster with nothing better to do than post idiotic diatribe...

I agree - it's another moron following in the footsteps of "Art" and "Stop" speaking in tongues.

[cdnmatt]

But I don't. You say yourself that your b/f is succeeding due to your guidance. No doubt others would likewise succeed if they were shown the way.

That's the whole tragedy of systemic poverty. It's self-perpetuating.

Yeah, true enough, I should probably step back a little, and have more sympathy for them. It's not their fault they weren't born into an environment that's conducive to learning, and being an ambitious entrepreneur. I'm subjected to it almost every day though, so it's a bit difficult to have sympathy for them. You know, some lazy cunts will show up at my place unannounced, plunk their fat asses down on my sofa, then wait in hopes Kim will buy them food & whiskey.


I'm still waiting to learn the source of this initial 15,000B that "any piss-poor young thai" apparently comes across...

Trust me, they run into that kind of money. Out of the say 20 friends of Kim's that I know, maybe only 2 or 3 haven't run into 15,000 baht. The rest have. Maybe their mom works in Israel, maybe they won the lottery, maybe they make beautiful funeral arrangements for 4000/piece and lots of people died that month, maybe they have a farang sponsor, maybe they did a week long promotion for a large corporation, or whatever. Trust me, that money comes their way.


In any case, from what I have observed the 15,000B would immediately be hoovered up by the boy's mother, never to be seen again. There must be some fucking rich old Thai women about.

Yeah, that's another problem. When the family & friends find out you have money, they'll hover around you like fleas on shit, with hopes of getting some. Mama doesn't get any money anymore, because Kim has decided it's her own fault she borrowed too much off the mafia, so up to her.

Papa is a pain nowadays, and is aggravating me. This is actually another good reason why there's no point in feeling sympathy for them. Papa keeps complaining about how hard done by he is, so Kim set off to the village a few days ago with 2500 in his pocket for papa. Kim returned home with the kids, which pisses me off. I have no issues with the kids staying here for a couple weeks until school is back in, and actually love them being around. We go out for dinner, then goto the Lao Kratong (sp) festival, win us some teddy bears, etc. It's great! It's just we helped papa out with 2500, he responded by pawning his kids off on us, and guranteed he is now pissing my hard earned money away on beer & whiskey. His kids won't see a single baht of that. What an ass, and so very typical of the people up here.


In Malaysia, as an outsider we feel sorry for the poorer Malays who are looked down on by the Chinese population.

Ohhh, don't worry about feeling sorry for the Malays either. I've spent loads of time in KL, and my dad worked there for 3 years while being super-intendant of Exxon's offshore rigs out there. I've heard my share of stories to not feel sorry for them. There's a reason the Chinese own the economy, while the Malays own the government. It's because Malays are too stupid to run the economy on their own. If anything, they should be grateful the Chinese are there, because that's what gives their cities & country prosperity. Otherwise, Malaysia would probably be some shithole like Laos.

[Dboy]

In any case, from what I have observed the 15,000B would immediately be hoovered up by the boy's mother, never to be seen again.

Unfortunately, this is at least half (maybe more than half) of the problem. There is an unstated, but very effective caste system that prevents economic and social mobility in Thailand. There are intra-cast as well as inter-cast forces at work, and the end result is what we see. Poor people have the values of poor people, else they wouldn't be poor; this becomes a generational feedback loop. And the 2 main social groups generally don't mix well, so the thought processes that give rise to wealth don't move cross-strata. But it's not just Thailand of course. In the US, they blather on about "social values" quite a bit. But they can't really go into detail about what those social values ARE, because the different social classes have different values. Talking about them would destroy the American illusion that "everyone is middle class". In Thailand, the social separation is obvious, which is perhaps the root of the political unrest.

dboy

[Patexpat]

I think the OP hits the nail on the head. Even when given an opportunity to better themselves many are simply too lazy or unwilling to do an honest days work. In the past and much against my better judgement I have been persuaded by the guy himself, or his boyfriend to give a 'real' job to an isan guy who 'wants to better himself'. The jobs typically require enthusiasm and willingness to learn a little. So far I have been disappointed.

I have no doubt there are exceptions, I just haven't found any. In fact I am recruiting at the moment in Pattaya, so if you know of any suitable candidates for junior admin person then let me know! English is a basic requirement, the rest can be learnt.

[Beachlover]

I think the OP hits the nail on the head. Even when given an opportunity to better themselves many are simply too lazy or unwilling to do an honest days work.
This sums it up well, although there are obviously exceptions and they are not all like this.

I think a lot of farang are surprised when they find a poorer Thai not so keen to better themselves or wasting a "good" opportunity. They look at the other person's decision making from their own eyes thinking, "if I were in such a poor position I would do everything I could to get out of it", rather than putting themselves in the Thai's less ambitious mindset. It leads to a lot of frustration.


Ohhh, don't worry about feeling sorry for the Malays either. I've spent loads of time in KL, and my dad worked there for 3 years while being super-intendant of Exxon's offshore rigs out there. I've heard my share of stories to not feel sorry for them. There's a reason the Chinese own the economy, while the Malays own the government. It's because Malays are too stupid to run the economy on their own. If anything, they should be grateful the Chinese are there, because that's what gives their cities & country prosperity. Otherwise, Malaysia would probably be some shithole like Laos.
You know, one thing I've noticed...

1. Thailand - Government AND economy owned by Chinese

2. Singapore - Government AND economy owned by Chinese

3. Malaysia - Government owned by Malays, economy owned by Chinese

I wonder if anything can be deduced from this. Each scenario seems to produce varying results in terms of racial harmony, prosperity/economy, corruption, balance of wealth/status... I guess there are too many other factors involved to say, which combination is best.

What about Indonesia, Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia and other SEA countries. Anyone know enough about these countries to comment?

[thrillbill]

Quite true how one can feel sorry for the "minorities/ poor" in various countries as tourists until you live there and see the whole picture. First, the Isaan Thai does have a lot of odds against him... poor education in the schools, lack of "thinking out of the box" (due to environment, Chinese-Thai prejudice against the Isaan people, the government's failure to make opportunities more equal to every citiaen in Thailand, and sometimes lack of a strong family community. But I have noticed many Isaan do not want to work a full 12 hour day...and will many times quit a job before finding another. I know one Isaan fellow who has a university degree to be in business but decided to be a tour guide for Russians. He learned the language and had the opportunity to work his arse off. He didn't like working everyday. Now he is selling Isaan food at some night market. Many want the easy way out by hooking onto a farang and live happily for ever (as long as there is income). I have Isaan friends, some are hard workers, while others do not want to hold on to a full time job.

Every country has particular ethnic groups that are more motivated, ambitious than others. True, this is generalizing; however, it seems to be a fact of life whereever you go. I have lived in Malaysia and Indonesia..and who are the successful business people? The Chinese. I have lived in the Middle East and who are the successful business people there? The Lebanese

[mj_87-old]

I know people love to say, "ohhh, the poor, poor Issan people -- we need to help them!". After a while of living here though, I have to say, I don't have much sympathy for them at all anymore. I don't think there's anything to feel sorry for. People love to say there's no opportunity for them up here, which is bullshit.

There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor. For one of many examples, say you're a young piss poor Thai living in Issan. At some point in life, you're going to run into 15,000 baht. You can invest that into buying shirts in bulk, and sell those shirts at the market everyday. You can make 2000 - 3000 baht per week doing this. Once you have the cashflow, you can easily expand that into 4000 - 6000 per week. It's work, and long hours, but definitely possible. From there, you save up for a year, and you have enough to buy a small Thai BBQ restaurant for 100,000 baht.

I've seen this several times now though, and the reality of what happens is, they pickup say 20,000 baht in shirts. Then sell them all, and for some inconceivable reason decide all sales money is profit. They'll piss all the money away, then end up broke with no money to buy additional inventory, then complain about how hard done by they are. So the next time someone gives you the "oh poor me from Issan" story, tell them to fuck off. They did it to themselves. If they had some discipline, they could make a good life for themselves without problem. It's long hours, and lots of work, but we all have to go through that in life, and that opportunity is here for them too.

That's why I'm glad I've been such a cunt to Kim about him selling shirts, and I know he appreciates it. He appreciates someone looking out for him like this. I invested a simple 15,000 baht into him, but under the condition he's going to give a daily expense & revenue report every day. I printed out some forms, and made him a little booklet, and he's doing excellent with it. Gotta say, I'm quite proud of him for his discipline, and I know he appreciates having someone looking out for him like this, because we both know otherwise, he'd piss it all away and end up like his friends. Give it another year or two, and I'll be able to trust him with a restaurant. :-) Or who knows, maybe he'll do that on his own.

Anyway, point it, don't feel sorry for Issan Thais. Granted, some are in poverty for unforseen reasons, but for the majority, it's their own doing. They can make a decent living for themselves if they wanted to.

It sounds to me like you are using Kim as your special mind fuck projects...and not treating him as a boyfriend. Do you have control issues? Just curious.

As for the general worthlessness of the peasant population of Issan I have no knowledge as I have not been there in years...but the majority of the comments in this thread seem to be based on the idea that people (all people) should be out striving for material gain and that material wealth is a reflection of the worth of individuals....A very Calvinistic mind set...maybe the Issan Thais are happy to do fuck all and that seems to me a noble thing in and of itself....being happy and not doing much.

[elephantspike]

As for the general worthlessness of the peasant population of Issan I have no knowledge as I have not been there in years...but the majority of the comments in this thread seem to be based on the idea that people (all people) should be out striving for material gain and that material wealth is a reflection of the worth of individuals....A very Calvinistic mind set...maybe the Issan Thais are happy do fuck all and that seems to me a noble thing in and of itself....being happy and not doing much.

Here, here, MJ! how many billions will Warren Buffett be able to take with him when his number is up? And did he even make all those millions by hard work or was it just given to him when he was born?

How about all the hard working honest Americans who lost all their savings in the latest Bankster swindle?

What is the point of working for a company?

Are you sure that the Isaan folks are so dumb sitting on their land content to enjoy their lives? They have their land and their families after all. Can you say the same?

When push comes to shove, land and family will be what matters.

[pudel]

After reading all these threads I agree with Elephantspike's philosophy but the greed of the world is here and will unfortunately stay :8(
greetings from Switzerland!

[elephantspike]

Chester See explains it better than I can:

[youtube:3qdxb6db]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HR5b-ENfnI[/youtube:3qdxb6db]

[cdnmatt]

It sounds to me like you are using Kim as your special mind fuck projects...and not treating him as a boyfriend. Do you have control issues? Just curious.

What are you talking about? He was the one constantly moaning and complaining every day for weeks that he wants to sell shirts, because he was bored of just hanging out with his friends and drinking whiskey everyday. Had nothing to do with me. It's just I've seen several of his friends do the same before, and every single one of them fucked it up. I didn't want the same fate for Kim, so I gave him the money under the condition he's going to learn how to do balance sheets.

I don't understand how that makes me a control freak. He has absolutely no idea about these things, and he's looking towards me for guidance. It'd be pretty cruel (and stupid) for me to just to hand over 15,000 and say, "Ok, fuck off, you're on your own with it. Figure it out for yourself.", don't you think? He wants to make a good life for himself, but doesn't even know the basics, and he's expecting me to help guide him. Trust me, I'm FAR FAR less controlling than many of the farangs I see around.


As for the general worthlessness of the peasant population of Issan I have no knowledge as I have not been there in years...but the majority of the comments in this thread seem to be based on the idea that people (all people) should be out striving for material gain and that material wealth is a reflection of the worth of individuals....A very Calvinistic mind set...maybe the Issan Thais are happy to do fuck all and that seems to me a noble thing in and of itself....being happy and not doing much.

That's totally fine with me. If someone is happy being poor, then by all means, go for it. But don't come to my house, and complain because you don't have any money, and continuously try to borrow off Kim, and try to get free food & whiskey off him. Piss off, get a job, and go make your own money. I know quite a few who think 500 baht is a good amount of money though, and gotta say, they don't seem very happy to me.


Here, here, MJ! how many billions will Warren Buffett be able to take with him when his number is up? And did he even make all those millions by hard work or was it just given to him when he was born?

Warren Buffet is probably the single worst person in the world you could have used as an example. He grew up poor, but was intelligent & hard working, made his own fortune, and is one of the most (if not the most) generous filthy rich people in the world. He still lives in the same very modest house, likes to goto the local pub for a couple beers & karaoke, and just recently gave charities some unreal amount like 70% of his fortune. I know I'm wrong on the 70%, but it was alot.

[elephantspike]

Here, here, MJ! how many billions will Warren Buffett be able to take with him when his number is up? And did he even make all those millions by hard work or was it just given to him when he was born?


Warren Buffet is probably the single worst person in the world you could have used as an example. He grew up poor, but was intelligent & hard working, made his own fortune, and is one of the most (if not the most) generous filthy rich people in the world. He still lives in the same very modest house, likes to goto the local pub for a couple beers & karaoke, and just recently gave charities some unreal amount like 70% of his fortune. I know I'm wrong on the 70%, but it was alot.

Well, personally I think these "charities" are in fact global genocide organizations, but, yeah, I should have said David Rockefeller instead. I do agree with this part though:


Warren Buffet is probably the single worst person in the world

[cdnmatt]

I do agree with this part though:


Warren Buffet is probably the single worst person in the world

I'm curious, why's that?

[elephantspike]

Because all that money that he so "generously" donated is going to fund the forced sterilization of all the women of certain tribes in Africa. That is in effect, genocide. As soon as the current generation dies, the tribe dies.

Don't think it will stop there, either. It will all escalate incrementally like the frog in the slowly boiling water analogy. North America and Western Europe will be not far behind. Southeast Asia will fall victim long before that. Soon there will be nothing left but Elites like Buffett, his dedicated slaves, and and a few scattered remnants of true humanity, hopefully including some of these Chao Isaan you so denigrate, who may survive because they have land and family and true human values.

[cdnmatt]

Because all that money that he so "generously" donated is going to fund the forced sterilization of all the women of certain tribes in Africa. That is in effect, genocide. As soon as the current generation dies, the tribe dies.

Ok, so then I'm curious, what's your solution to the problems in Africa? You're obviously quite opposed to sterilization, so you must have put some thought into a better solution. I'm curious as to what that is? I'll admit it's a shitty situation, but what would you prefer? Sterilized women who can't have kids, or millions of 6 year olds dieing of hunger, malnutrition, malaria, AIDS, etc.? Or should Western countries continue spending money they don't have on Africa? Or what? I'll admit, I don't have a solution whatsoever, as I've never been to Africa.

And let me guess, you're leaving out an important detail like, 70% of people in those tribes have HIV, or something. I'm sure there's a decent reason behind the decision.


Don't think it will stop there, either. It will all escalate incrementally like the frog in the slowly boiling water analogy. North America and Western Europe will be not far behind. Southeast Asia will fall victim long before that. Soon there will be nothing left but Elites like Buffett, his dedicated slaves, and and a few scattered remnants of true humanity, hopefully including some of these Chao Isaan you so denigrate, who may survive because they have land and family and true human values.

Yeah, yeah... same as the FEMA camps we're all going to get rounded up into like cattle later on.

In my opinion it is all in the teaching.

Anyone who wants to truly understand the depth of despair felt by people in Issan (and elsewhere in rural Thailand) should spend some time listening to the teachings given in the schools and in the wats.

Much has already been written about the poor quality of education, and to listen to the message from the monks that "You are where you are because of past lives, and there is NOTHING you can do in this life to change it. Just get on and die"

Any wonder then that people just sit around and drink themselves into oblivion?

Matt himself has the answer in a previous thread he started about ambition



Just a few nights ago I told Kim I was really happy because he has lots of ambition for this new thing he's working on. Instead of getting a "khawp khun kap honey" in return, he was pissed. There was a chance it was just mis-communication because I said it in Thai, but I doubt it, because I even showed him the word "ambition" in the dictionary to make sure he knew what I meant. He was quite pissed off though, and going off about how Thai people can't be like that, and blah, blah...

....

Any wonder then that people just sit around and drink themselves into oblivion?....

Are we still talking about the Issan Thais - or have we moved on to a critique of the ex-pat population of Pattaya?


:occasion9:

[thonglor55]

Much has already been written about the poor quality of education, and to listen to the message from the monks that "You are where you are because of past lives, and there is NOTHING you can do in this life to change it. Just get on and die".HMTK's Sufficiency Economy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Localism_in_Thailand) theory teaches us all to get by with what we've got and not to go lusting after the consumer goods that are peddled by those glitzy shopping malls ... which are, quite coincidentally, owned by HMTK's Crown Property Bureau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Property_Bureau).

:bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot: :bot:


... but the majority of the comments in this thread seem to be based on the idea that people (all people) should be out striving for material gain and that material wealth is a reflection of the worth of individuals....A very Calvinistic mind set...maybe the Issan Thais are happy to do fuck all and that seems to me a noble thing in and of itself....being happy and not doing much.
Thailand is so popular precisely because of the positive aspects of the Thai mentality. Protestants who suffer from its negative aspects but prefer Asians shouldn't despair but move to Vietnam (population: 85,847,000), China (1,338,613,000) or Japan (127,360,000). Compromise: A modest collection of Sino-Thai boyfriends.




http://kadmusarts.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/DolceFarNiente.jpg
Amor fati is the embrace of the world that is as it isтАФeternally BecomingтАФnot as it тАЬshouldтАЭ be, for there is no тАЬshould,тАЭ no imperative that it be, or be transformed into, something other than it is.тАЭ

тАЬTo indicate the place of fatalism in the lives of these villagers, I shall review some of their terms for fatalism; note some relationships with beliefs in karma; describe a few forms of divination with which they try to ascertain their fate; analyze some of their beliefs and practices as they respond to predictions of their fate; speculate on some differences in their ideal and real orientations toward fatalism; and suggest a cultural ecological interpretation of Thai village fatalism.тАЭ

тАЬAny action performed with greed тАФ born of greed, caused by greed, originating from greed: wherever one's selfhood turns up, there that action will ripen. Where that action ripens, there one will experience its fruit, either in this very life that has arisen or further along in the sequence.тАЭ Nidana Sutta: Causes, AN 3.33

'The Thai way of life is an elegant sort of life, surrounded by a benevolent and exuberantly plentiful nature, with adaptable morals and a serene detachment to the more serious problems of life тАж to a Thai, life itself is a long relaxation.' Kukrit Pramoj

тАЬReports indicate that the Sino-Thais control 85-90% of the business interests in the country.тАЭ

тАЬEven the widely acknowledged greater prosperity of the Chinese did not seem cause for ethnic friction. Indeed, the Thai almost universally attributed such differences to Chinese patterns of тАЬhard work, enthusiasm, perseverance, and goal-orientationтАЭ, in contrast to what many informants claimed was a Thai tendency to тАЬearn 20 baht and spend 25тАЭ, or to тАЬlive hand-to-mouthтАЭ in an тАЬeasy-going, unenthusiastic, and lazyтАЭ manner.тАЬ

тАЬMy formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal itтАФall idealism is mendaciousness in the face of what is necessaryтАФbut love it.

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[Beachlover]

the majority of the comments in this thread seem to be based on the idea that people (all people) should be out striving for material gain and that material wealth is a reflection of the worth of individuals....A very Calvinistic mind set...maybe the Issan Thais are happy to do fuck all and that seems to me a noble thing in and of itself...
True. Material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth but it's far from the only one. The problem is people sometimes focus ONLY on material wealth as a measure of worth because it's the easiest thing to measure.


Here, here, MJ! how many billions will Warren Buffett be able to take with him when his number is up? And did he even make all those millions by hard work or was it just given to him when he was born?
cdnmatt is right. You couldn't have picked a worse example to use for your message:

1. Buffet is one man who made his own money.

2. He sure as hell didn't do it to fly around in private jets and live lavishly. He is renowned for living an extraordinarily humble lifestyle relative to his wealth. Drives an ordinary car. Lives in the same ordinary house. Eats in fast food restaurants.

3. He is also renowned for speaking out against corporate lavishness and greed. He sets an example with his own company operating with relatively modest overheads. Look at how humble their website is: http://www.berkshirehathaway.com/

4. Didn't he announce he was giving it all or most of it away? Isn't he on a big campaign right now to encourage wealthy people to give away their wealth to good causes? Him and Gates just held a big event in China to encourage wealthy Chinese to consider charity (that will be a very hard nut to crack).


What is the point of working for a company?
To earn a living, you sell your services. Same as if you worked for yourself.


Are you sure that the Isaan folks are so dumb sitting on their land content to enjoy their lives? They have their land and their families after all. Can you say the same? When push comes to shove, land and family will be what matters.
Being happy doing nothing and living hand to mouth sounds all lovely when explained simply. But what about one's responsibility to provide for your family, community and future needs?

Who comes to the rescue when something goes wrong? Who pays when someone has an illness or accident and needs medical treatment? Where does the money come from when a kid has an opportunity to go to university but needs funding? What happens when someone is in dire straights and can't provide a roof for their family and kids?

Being happy and content to be poor might sound lovely on a day to day basis but there's nothing glamorous about it in the long run. On one side of my family I've observed the difference between those who have done well and look after others when the need arises and some who have not done so well and barely look after themselves.

I have a family member who is very ill. One family member has volunteered to cover all the medical costs associated with treating the person. They've come up with $150k out of their own pocket over the last two years and there is more to come. A second family member with lesser means is paying for a full time nurse to assist - about $1,000/month, but still a significant cost burden none the less.

A third family member isn't so financially capable but provides a dedicated room and en suit in their home to care for the ill person, which is admirable. The rest of the family are barely capable of looking after themselves let alone a close family member who needs help... it looks pathetic, but that's life, I suppose.

There's nothing glamorous about this sitting around being content to do nothing... When you or someone you love is in the shit, who's going to fix it?

I'm one of the younger members in my family but I've given financial help to older family members in dire straits before. I can honestly say they really would have been in the shit if I hadn't had the means to help them when the calls suddenly came. I work hard, not just to give myself a good lifestyle, but also because I want to provide a good life and freedom of choice for my family in the future and one day I'll probably need to look after my parents as they get older too... I value having the means to do this.

You have to think ahead about this stuff. You have to think about OTHERS around you too - whether it's family, close friends or relatives. Unfortunately, the Issan culture isn't great with this aspect of life. They're renowned for being poor and lazy and crowding around to scrooge off anyone with money... Lovely people and lots of fun, but they have their weaknesses like anyone else.

Anyway, Spike, nice to see you back in forum, even if most of it doesn't interest you.


In my opinion it is all in the teaching.Anyone who wants to truly understand the depth of despair felt by people in Issan (and elsewhere in rural Thailand) should spend some time listening to the teachings given in the schools and in the wats.

Much has already been written about the poor quality of education, and to listen to the message from the monks that "You are where you are because of past lives, and there is NOTHING you can do in this life to change it. Just get on and die"
I wonder about that. Is this message more greatly emphasised in Thailand than it is in Buddhism elsewhere? Because Buddhism is quite prevalent elsewhere but I haven't heard this message emphasised and interpreted in such a way so heavily before... That is, the idea that "you are where you are because of your past lives" and that you should accept your position and not try to better it etc. It's such a destructive mentality... Terrible stuff.

I wonder about that. Is this message more greatly emphasised in Thailand than it is in Buddhism elsewhere? Because Buddhism is quite prevalent elsewhere but I haven't heard this message emphasised and interpreted in such a way so heavily before... That is, the idea that "you are where you are because of your past lives" and that you should accept your position and not try to better it etc. It's such a destructive mentality... Terrible stuff.

Indeed it is much more greatly emphasised in Thai Buddhism. So much so that you could say Thai version of Buddhism has become greatly corrupted.


Those of us with a Christian background will be familiar with the concepts of "doing good" and "giving alms" in the various guises. However, in Thailand I have heard teaching that basically says:

When you do good works or give alms Dhamma (or Kharma) is transferred from the receiver to you. Do you think a beggar has much Dhamma to give you? How much more Dhamma will you receive if you give alms to someone above you.

That philosophy explains the never ending progression of money up the social network, either by voluntary means or involuntary (such as tea money).

One can draw very good parallels with the Roman Catholic Church at the time Johann Tetzel was selling indulgences to raise money to rebuild St Peter's basilica in Rome in 1517

There is an excellent book for background reading, but it is banned in this country.

There is some very good background reading in a book that is banned in this country.

[Beachlover]

Indeed it is much more greatly emphasised in Thai Buddhism. So much so that you could say Thai version of Buddhism has become greatly corrupted.

Hmmm... That's an interesting observation. I guess Buddhism has become quite institutionalised in Thailand. That must be why some people really dislike it. In the process of becoming more developed, people have stretched the interpretation of its teachings and reached certain conclusions, which are not good. Sounds similar to Christianity, which is full of ceremonies, institutions, rules, which cover the teachings in their raw form.

I'm kind of drawn to the way buddhism is practiced here in Australia and in some other Asian countries. I'm a bit put off by it in Thailand though.

[cdnmatt]

When you do good works or give alms Dhamma (or Kharma) is transferred from the receiver to you. Do you think a beggar has much Dhamma to give you? How much more Dhamma will you receive if you give alms to someone above you.

That philosophy explains the never ending progression of money up the social network

That might be what they teach, but they don't seem to practice it, or at least I haven't noticed. If anything, I've only noticed the opposite. If you have more, you're expected to share the wealth to the less fortunate. If anything, I'd say that's the biggest reason many of them work hard, but remain poor. They give, give, give... because it's expected of them.

That's why there's so many moochers around, who don't seem to have any issues with it, and don't understand they're being rude. For example, when Thais get together for dinner at someone's house, nobody ever gets their own individual portion / plate of food, like we do in the West. All the food gets thrown in the middle of the table, generally with a large bowl of rice, and everyone takes what they want, a spoonful or two at a time.

This way if there's someone at the house who doesn't have money for food, they're not going to go hungry. Same goes with whiskey. Someone buys a bottle, it goes into the middle of the table, and everyone drinks from it. The concept of BYOB (bring your own booze) is completely foreign here, and would simply be unacceptable in society.

PS... if that's actually true, I'm going to start wandering around, asking for tea money when people come to my house. "You want some karma? Hand over the cash!" heh, don't think that'd go over very well :-)

One of the problems with being wealthy seems to be the guilt it induces - hence the desperate need to 'prove' that the poor deserve all they get (or rather don't get). It also causes other forms of absurd behaviour, like refusing to give money to beggars on the grounds that they probably have a Rolls Royce parked round the corner. If wealth causes you such dire mental problems, perhaps you'd be better off poor.

[Rene]

Amor fati is the embrace of the world that is as it isтАФeternally BecomingтАФnot as it тАЬshouldтАЭ be, for there is no тАЬshould,тАЭ no imperative that it be, or be transformed into, something other than it is.тАЭ

тАЬMy formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal itтАФall idealism is mendaciousness in the face of what is necessaryтАФbut love it."


Fantastic quote China!

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Amor fati is a Latin phrase coined by Nietzsche loosely translating to "love of fate" or "love of one's fate". It is used to describe an attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering and loss, as good. Moreover, it is characterized by an acceptance of the events or situations that occur in one's life.

The phrase is used repeatedly in Nietzsche's writings and is representative of the general outlook on life he articulates in section 276 of The Gay Science, which reads,

I want to learn more and more to see as beautiful what is necessary in things; then I shall be one of those who make things beautiful. Amor fati: let that be my love henceforth! I do not want to wage war against what is ugly. I do not want to accuse; I do not even want to accuse those who accuse. Looking away shall be my only negation. And all in all and on the whole: some day I wish to be only a Yes-sayer.

Quote from "Why I Am So Clever" in Ecce Homo, section 10[1]:

My formula for greatness in a human being is amor fati: that one wants nothing to be different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely bear what is necessary, still less conceal itтАФall idealism is mendaciousness in the face of what is necessaryтАФbut love it.

тАЬThais, he saw, were too docile in their acceptance of fate, or karma. This was the downside of non-desire, and it was a dangerous vulnerability of Thai society. To address this, Bhumibol had to modify the moral code that guided Thais, to advance a profoundly modern shift in dhammic interpretation. He introduced as a moral concept the idea of hard work, beyond duty. This was a radical addition to the catalogue of generally fatalistic Theravada Buddhist virtues, for it tied successful unity to diligence and perseverance, not just karma and good intentions. This was a radical idea, because hard work suggested having goals and making concentrated efforts to achieve them тАУ that is, desire for success and achievement, which was at odds with key principles of Theravada Buddhism.

Under B.'s interpretation hard work had merit in itself. Combined with pure intentions, in brought one closer to happiness, to nirvana, not so much as an individual but as a part of the Thai nation. It even had a karmic value of protecting one from evil and suffering, from communist terrorists and bureaucratic persecution.

The message of hard work began appearing in B.'s speeches in the late 1960s, directed at both educated urbanities, whom he considered generally selfish, and peasants, whom he thought lazy. Sounding more Swiss Calvinist than Siamese dhammaraja, he told them that they would advance if they worked hard, and t they could protect themselves if they were more self-reliant.тАЭ Jean Cauvin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin

http://www.lausanne.ch/Tools/GetImage.asp?id=151622&RetDesc=N&Type=DocObj
The Thai Pavillon in Lausanne, a city on the shores of Lake Geneva (French: Lac L├йman) in
Romandy, the French-speaking part of Switzerland, where Bhumibol spent 17 years of his life.

Open to the public since September 29th, 2007, the royal house is located in the north-eastern part of the park of Denantou, near the Olympic Museum and the Elysee Museum. The building can be visited during the day and in the evening, it is illuminated until 11 pm. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthrea ... 8&t=893994 (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?s=4bbc0b8756bdbb51a21ddcb072e0d6f8&t=893994)

тАЬBhumibol was born at the Mount Auburn Hospital in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in the United States on 5 December 1927. He was the younger son of HRH Prince Mahidol Adulyadej and Mom Sangwal (later HRH Princess Srinagarindra, the Princess Mother: Somdej Phra Sri Nakarindhara Boromaratchachonnani). His name, Bhumibol Adulyadej, means "Strength of the Land, Incomparable Power".

Bhumibol came to Thailand in 1928, after Prince Mahidol obtained a certificate in the Public Health programme at Harvard University. He briefly attended Mater Dei school in Bangkok but in 1933 his mother took the family to Switzerland, where he continued his education at the Ecole Nouvelle de la Suisse Romande in Lausanne. He received the baccalaur├йat des lettres (high-school diploma with major in French literature, Latin, and Greek) from the Gymnase Classique Cantonal of Lausanne, and by 1945 had begun studying science at the University of Lausanne.тАЭ

http://213.3.43.113/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=CIF&compression=50&color=1&clock=1&date=1&text=0

[mj_87-old]

That's why I'm glad I've been such a cunt to Kim about him selling shirts, and I know he appreciates it. He appreciates someone looking out for him like this. I invested a simple 15,000 baht into him, but under the condition he's going to give a daily expense & revenue report every day.

Papa is a pain nowadays, and is aggravating me. This is actually another good reason why there's no point in feeling sympathy for them. Papa keeps complaining about how hard done by he is, so Kim set off to the village a few days ago with 2500 in his pocket for papa. Kim returned home with the kids, which pisses me off. I have no issues with the kids staying here for a couple weeks until school is back in, and actually love them being around. We go out for dinner, then goto the Lao Kratong (sp) festival, win us some teddy bears, etc. It's great! It's just we helped papa out with 2500, he responded by pawning his kids off on us, and guranteed he is now pissing my hard earned money away on beer & whiskey. His kids won't see a single baht of that. What an ass, and so very typical of the people up here.

That's totally fine with me. If someone is happy being poor, then by all means, go for it. But don't come to my house, and complain because you don't have any money, and continuously try to borrow off Kim, and try to get free food & whiskey off him. Piss off, get a job, and go make your own money. I know quite a few who think 500 baht is a good amount of money though, and gotta say, they don't seem very happy to me.

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The above quotes IMHO sound like someone who wants to control the behavior or another.

No help unless the daily expense and revenue sheets are filled in on time!
Fuck off to the father and don't help your family!
Fuck your friends...You can not give them money or booze as I disapprove!
I am paraphrasing of course but that sounds like someone who wants to change the behavior of someone else and exercise a bit of control.
Ah..now the response is probably..well I am just trying to look out after my partner and make sure they succeed and are not taken advantage of by other people...Fair enough..I would say...but you are still trying to change the behavior of another human being to meet your needs...Classic control behavior.

[mj_87-old]

Here, here, MJ! how many billions will Warren Buffett be able to take with him when his number is up? And did he even make all those millions by hard work or was it just given to him when he was born?


Warren Buffet is probably the single worst person in the world you could have used as an example. He grew up poor, but was intelligent & hard working, made his own fortune, and is one of the most (if not the most) generous filthy rich people in the world. He still lives in the same very modest house, likes to goto the local pub for a couple beers & karaoke, and just recently gave charities some unreal amount like 70% of his fortune. I know I'm wrong on the 70%, but it was alot.

Well, personally I think these "charities" are in fact global genocide organizations, but, yeah, I should have said David Rockefeller instead. I do agree with this part though:


Warren Buffet is probably the single worst person in the world

Elephantspike - I appreciate the support but if you actually believe that Warren Buffet (who is giving his money to the Gates charitites) and Bill and Melinda Gates are secretly funding eugenics projects...well you are a nutter.

[mj_87-old]

True. Material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth but it's far from the only one. The problem is people sometimes focus ONLY on material wealth as a measure of worth because it's the easiest thing to measure.

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Beachlover I have to respectfully disagree with your statement..you might accuse me a splitting hairs but I do not believe that material weath is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth....If that were true then almost everyone in a western industrialized nation would be a more valuable person than someone who is living else where...

I believe the worth of a person is their nature and character. Do they strive and struggle to be decent human beings...that has nothing to do with material wealth.

[cdnmatt]

No help unless the daily expense and revenue sheets are filled in on time!

Oh christ, quit trying to make it into something it isn't. Kim's even admitted himself he'd fuck this up if it wasn't for the booklet. He doesn't want to be like his friends, who sell 1500 baht of shirts in one day, then decide they have 1500 for karaoke that night. He wants to learn, because later on he wants to own a restaurant, but knows he needs to learn all these basics first.

If I was a control freak, first off, Kim would have left long ago. That, and I would be doing the same as many farangs I see do. Trying to dictate where he should get supply from, where he should sell, who he should sell with, how much, etc. I could care less about any of that. Go out, make your mistakes, and learn from them. Just learn how to balance the books, and keep that balance in your business wallet. I don't want to fork over 15,000 baht every month, because you're too lazy too balance the books. Again though, he's great with it.


Fuck off to the father and don't help your family!

Shouldn't talk when you don't know what you're talking about. There's a couple kids living here right now, who come basically from the mud, now have nice air-conditioned room, loads of good food, new clothes, get to go out and have fun all the time, are well looked after, etc. We help out the family just fine, thank you.

As for papa, how would you like me to react? I sit by myself in this room behind the computer everyday working to provide for us. He complains about how poor he is and is having a rough time to provide for the kids. We help him out, and he proceeds to pawn the kids off on us, and parties with his new found money. What would you like me to do? Say, "Ohhh, no worries, you're out of whiskey? No problem, here's another 3000 baht. Have fun, while we look after your kids for you!"? Really...


Fuck your friends...You can not give them money or booze as I disapprove!

You're taking that out of context as well, and Kim agrees with me on this too. If we let it happen, there'd be 15 people here all day everyday, sitting around waiting for free food, beer & whiskey. It'd cost me 5000 baht a day, just so they can afford to be lazy cunts. Why would I let that happen?


Classic control behavior.

Come live in Issan for 6 months, make sure to put yourself out there, then tell me I'm a control freak. For example, does it make me a control freak that I spent three days talking with Kim, and finally managed to convince him to take his 15yo sister who has a boyfriend to the doctor, and get her some birth control? Guaranteed nobody else is going to do it, because nobody wants to admit shes going to have sex regardless of how angry anyone gets, and she doesn't need to have a kid at 15 or 16. So does that make me a control freak? I don't personally think so, and they don't seem to either. They seem very grateful & appreciative for everything.

[Cees-Holland]

To be honest my situation is a bit like cndmatt (help boyfriend run very small business, same amount:15k baht, he earns now ~6k/month ).
And I agree that (some) Thai need help to make their business successful.
Maybe its considered wrong to impose the "capitalistic model" to your boyfriend but I think it will be better for him in the long run.

Making him understand that his "business-wallet" is not the same as his "food-wallet" was an important step. Maybe if I didn't "control him" he would have used his "business-wallet" for helping his mother or brother.. killing his company in the process.

You can call it control-freak, but my goal is that he can support himself (and later others too) giving him a better future with more choice (with or without me).

[Beachlover]

If anything, I've only noticed the opposite. If you have more, you're expected to share the wealth to the less fortunate. If anything, I'd say that's the biggest reason many of them work hard, but remain poor. They give, give, give... because it's expected of them.
Matt, this "pressure" you talk about might be just a case of poor people putting pressure on YOU or Kim to share the wealth (i.e. RECIPIENT influence). It sounds like a different force to what gwm4asian talks about in terms of people wanting to help those with higher status, rather than lower status (i.e. GIVER influence).


For example, when Thais get together for dinner at someone's house, nobody ever gets their own individual portion / plate of food, like we do in the West. All the food gets thrown in the middle of the table, generally with a large bowl of rice, and everyone takes what they want, a spoonful or two at a time.
Actually, that's the way most (if not all) Asians eat in general - rich or poor. This is the way I've eaten my whole life - individual bowls of rice with common meat/vegetable dishes in the middle with serving spoons. It's not about making sure everyone - including broke people - has food. We just find it's a nicer way to eat.

I don't know about the non BYO thing. I suspect this might just be when a meal is at your place (wealthy farang - no need to bring anything) or for special event where the host is expected to provide everything, but I could be wrong so forgive me if I am. Every walk of life has its moochers...


One of the problems with being wealthy seems to be the guilt it induces - hence the desperate need to 'prove' that the poor deserve all they get (or rather don't get). It also causes other forms of absurd behaviour, like refusing to give money to beggars on the grounds that they probably have a Rolls Royce parked round the corner. If wealth causes you such dire mental problems, perhaps you'd be better off poor.
WTF are you talking about? How does a wealthy person wanting to funnel their money to worthy causes indicate they have a mental problem?

Wealthy people often refuse beggars because they're intelligent to realise it isn't constructive to reward those who add no value and they are savvy enough to know many beggars (perhaps not all) could make a living in more constructive ways if they chose to.


The above quotes IMHO sound like someone who wants to control the behavior or another.
I think you're speculating based on too few details.

As far as "controlling" goes, I think Matt draws the line on a few things but this is quite reasonable. Do you really think doing the opposite to what Matt does would be constructive? That is, giving Kim and the family as much money as he wants, giving him, his family and friends complete free reign of the house and unlimited food/drink... He'd be a mini welfare state. Everyone has to draw the line somewhere.



Ah..now the response is probably..well I am just trying to look out after my partner and make sure they succeed and are not taken advantage of by other people...Fair enough..I would say...but you are still trying to change the behavior of another human being to meet your needs...Classic control behavior.
For the most part, it sounds like he is trying to change someone's behaviour for the better by influencing, rather than controlling. There's nothing wrong with this when it's done sensitively and with good intent.

It also sounds like Matt's taken some leadership to meet their needs as a couple, not just himself. He doesn't need the 6,000 baht/month Kim makes. He just knows Kim will be a more fulfilled and happy individual if he learns how to better support himself and earn a good living.


Elephantspike - I appreciate the support but if you actually believe that Warren Buffet (who is giving his money to the Gates charitites) and Bill and Melinda Gates are secretly funding eugenics projects...well you are a nutter.
That, I agree with.


I do not believe that material weath is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth....If that were true then almost everyone in a western industrialized nation would be a more valuable person than someone who is living else where...

I believe the worth of a person is their nature and character. Do they strive and struggle to be decent human beings...that has nothing to do with material wealth.

So are you saying "nature and character" are the only measures of a person's worth? Part of good nature and character is developing the motivation and means to look after yourself and others around you right?

I still believe material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth - though certainly not the only measure - but you raise a couple of good points:

1. Personally, I would exclude anyone who has made their own wealth.

2. I think it does need to take into account different environments and individual material wealth should be partly measured relative to their country/economy. For example, there are plenty working hard/smart and adding greater value in Asia who don't earn as much, dollar for dollar, as their equivalents Europe or North America.

Other than this, I don't think it's so objectionable to say material wealth is a significant measure. Just don't make it an "absolute" statement by saying it's the ONLY measure or the MOST significant factor alone.


Oh christ, quit trying to make it into something it isn't.
I don't think you need to justify yourself to people who are putting their own spin and speculation based on a few facts. It sounds like your intentions are good. Your means/method may not be right 100% of the time, but you seem to be on the right track and trialling/correcting as you go.

Good on you! In the space of a year, you've managed to establish yourself and carve out a living in Isaan and get your shit together to contribute to Kim's family and the community in various ways (not just monetarily)... That's no mean feat.


Maybe its considered wrong to impose the "capitalistic model" to your boyfriend but I think it will be better for him in the long run.
I agree... It's a life skill Matt is teaching him. The "capitalistic model" is how the world works. You contribute, you add value, it comes back to you. You build capital, take risks, find ways to add more value (e.g. education) and improve your lifestyle and means... It's hard to imagine anyone being successful without understanding this most basic of concepts, which Kim is picking up now.

Wealthy people often refuse beggars because they're intelligent to realise it isn't constructive to reward those who add no value.

A very revealing statement.

[Beachlover]

I can say the same about your ambiguous and absurdly irrational statements.

Do you give to every beggar you come across? Are you deliberately staying poor to avoid the mental problems you believe come with wealth?

[elephantspike]

Elephantspike - I appreciate the support but if you actually believe that Warren Buffet (who is giving his money to the Gates charitites) and Bill and Melinda Gates are secretly funding eugenics projects...well you are a nutter.

Secretly? Global depopulation is the stated purpose of the organization.

[giggsy]

Secretly? Global depopulation is the stated purpose of the organization.

Yep and one of the ways to depopulate is promoting homosexuality :hello1:
Some interesting reading on the subject can be seen at http://www.rense.com/general64/pordc.htm

[elephantspike]

That's fine but forced sterilization is eugenics (i.e. Nazism). The fact that many Westerners rationalize it because it is being done to poor brown people in countries they have never been to does not make it any less so. Like the Catholics in 1940s Germany, by the time they come for you it will be too late to speak-out against it.

[mj_87-old]

That's fine but forced sterilization is eugenics (i.e. Nazism). The fact that many Westerners rationalize it because it is being done to poor brown people in countries they have never been to does not make it any less so. Like the Catholics in 1940s Germany, by the time they come for you it will be too late to speak-out against it.

Crackpot dribble on the internet claiming a eugenics plan is a pretty low standard of proof.
Go to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation website and read their mission statement. It is exactly the opposite of a eugenics screed.

Sorry -- Nutter is still my opinion if you beleive the world elite are trying to wipe out their lessers through forced sterilization...China is another matter and a discussion for another day.

[mj_87-old]

The above quotes IMHO sound like someone who wants to control the behavior or another.
I think you're speculating based on too few details.

I do not believe that material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth....If that were true then almost everyone in a western industrialized nation would be a more valuable person than someone who is living else where...
I believe the worth of a person is their nature and character. Do they strive and struggle to be decent human beings...that has nothing to do with material wealth.
So are you saying "nature and character" are the only measures of a person's worth? Part of good nature and character is developing the motivation and means to look after yourself and others around you right?
I still believe material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth - though certainly not the only measure - but you raise a couple of good points:
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Short answer - I believe a personтАЩs worth is independent of their material wealth.

As for cdnmatt тАУ I donтАЩt know him and will probably never meetтАжwhat he does with his bf is his business. My comments were observations rooted in my belief that most people try to control their surrounding including the people around themselves. Cdnmatt strikes me as a complainer who wants the world to be more like he thinks it should be. Not giving money and not whining about it is also an option for cdnmatt..just a thought.

We have much less drama in our lives (complaining about others) and much more comedy (seeing the humor in our situation) when we stop trying to change the world around us and enjoy the world for all its absurd glory.

[elephantspike]

Crackpot dribble on the internet claiming a eugenics plan is a pretty low standard of proof.
Go to the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation website and read their mission statement. It is exactly the opposite of a eugenics screed.


Wait, if its on the internet its "crackpot dribble" except if it is on Bill Gates' website? :rolling:

Sorry to take this thread off topic, guys (And I take full responsibility) Everything I am saying in this thread is strictly IMHO. I'm gonna leave it alone here because this thread is supposed to be about Isaan and the expat farang perception of the Isaan people.

Feel free to post threads in the Global Forum challenging my "nutter" ideas about the NWO. :blackeye:

Back on topic.....

[Beachlover]

As for cdnmatt тАУ I donтАЩt know him and will probably never meetтАжwhat he does with his bf is his business. My comments were observations rooted in my belief that most people try to control their surrounding including the people around themselves. Cdnmatt strikes me as a complainer who wants the world to be more like he thinks it should be. Not giving money and not whining about it is also an option for cdnmatt..just a thought.

We have much less drama in our lives (complaining about others) and much more comedy (seeing the humor in our situation) when we stop trying to change the world around us and enjoy the world for all its absurd glory.
Well, I suppose our disagreement goes deeper than is worth discussing then... Personally, I see no issue with influencing our surroundings to suit us to a certain extent. It's what humans have done for millions of years. Matt seems to be "doing" more than just complaining.

As for "depopulation" and the "New World Order" of elite... These nutter conspiracy theories are all very exciting but they have always existed and meant very little in reality.

[cdnmatt]

As for cdnmatt тАУ I donтАЩt know him and will probably never meetтАжwhat he does with his bf is his business. My comments were observations rooted in my belief that most people try to control their surrounding including the people around themselves. Cdnmatt strikes me as a complainer who wants the world to be more like he thinks it should be. Not giving money and not whining about it is also an option for cdnmatt..just a thought.

We have much less drama in our lives (complaining about others) and much more comedy (seeing the humor in our situation) when we stop trying to change the world around us and enjoy the world for all its absurd glory.

I'm assuming you're retired, and live alone? I'm guessing you no longer work, have no responsibility, no one you're responsible for taking care of, and are free to do whatever you'd like, whenever you'd like? Because although your logic may sound nice, it doesn't work in reality.

For example, how about when I tell the kids if they want to feed their dog fried rice, by all means go for it, but don't leave the rice sitting on the floor for 4 or 5 days. I that controlling them? No, that's teaching them to keep a clean house, so we don't have to deal with a maggot infestation.

How about when I'm playing badminton outside with the little guy, then 10:30pm rolls around, and I say we should go inside so we don't wake up the neighbors. Is that controlling him? No, that's being a responsible adult.

There's 6 people living here right now, and the kitchen turns into a filthy shithole overflowing with dishes every single day, and I barely ever make any of them. Should I just clean that up everyday without complaint, because telling them to do their own dishes would be controlling them?

And Kim didn't have to take that 15,000 baht. That was up to him. If he didn't want to do balance sheets, he could have got a job at a restaurant, saved up for a couple months, and he would have had his 15,000. But if I'm going to fork over 15,000 baht of my hard earned money, he can learn how not to fuck it up, plus learn a skill that's going to help him out in life.

With what you're saying, I should just let everyone walk all over me all the time, do whatever they want, never bother cleaning, and I should just freely hand out my hard earned dollars to whoever asks, for whatever reason, with no strings attached. I'd be flat broke, and probably in a hospital with a couple kinky diseases within two months if I did that.

Wow, this sure is a lively topic.

I would be interested in how the experiment pans out. Please keep updated cdnmatt.

I do agree that some people don't have that entrepreneurial mindset and nothing one can do will change that. The guy is lucky to have the guidance of the op. Surely his self esteem will grow if he makes a sucess of his venture. His choices in life will be much greater and the ability to do the Thai thing & support his family will be possible.

The poster never said anything about how Kim should spend his wealth, he was just making sure that he understood what profit actually is which isn't the amount of money he has, just a percentage of it. That is not the actions of a control freak, just someone who understands business and is offering to teach his partner the skills to enable him to be sucessful.

I personally do not understand why one would not want to be able to earn money and improve their lifestyle but that is just my view.

The Issan part of the debate is a red herring, these types of people exist all around the world, the Uk benefit culture embraced is by some of the community, some Rednecks would rather get drunk than put food on their table, some aboriginies would do the same etc etc but when someone expresses the desire to improve their lot I think they should be given as much assistance as possible, isn't that what the op is trying to do ?

[Beachlover]

I'm assuming you're retired, and live alone? I'm guessing you no longer work, have no responsibility, no one you're responsible for taking care of, and are free to do whatever you'd like, whenever you'd like? Because although your logic may sound nice, it doesn't work in reality.
Well put. Mj_87 sounds like (not saying for sure that he is) he's coming from a position where he has absolutely NO responsibility for anything or anyone around him.

I mean, WTF. I suppose he thinks I'm a control freak for implementing quarterly reviews for all staff in my business and laying out benchmarks for how I want things done. Maybe, instead of acting rationally, I should do what he thinks is right - hire anyone, let them turn up to work anytime they want and treat clients in whatever way is convenient to them.


There's 6 people living here right now
Shit... no wonder you're going nuts about people mooching off you LOL. How'd you end up with six?

Did Papa ask you if you would be ok looking after the kids for a while before pawning them off to you? Because that's pretty rude if he didn't. I mean, you don't just lump someone with two kids and expect them to cloth and feed and look after them. I think you're going to need to draw a strong line there... Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to get a house with so many spare bedrooms.


I personally do not understand why one would not want to be able to earn money and improve their lifestyle but that is just my view.
True - I guess the thing is how much effort one wants to go through to improve their lifestyle... But some people just don't want to do anything at all. They're happy living hand to mouth and not giving a toss about the future or the welfare of anyone around them.

[mj_87-old]

As for cdnmatt тАУ I donтАЩt know him and will probably never meetтАжwhat he does with his bf is his business. My comments were observations rooted in my belief that most people try to control their surrounding including the people around themselves. Cdnmatt strikes me as a complainer who wants the world to be more like he thinks it should be. Not giving money and not whining about it is also an option for cdnmatt..just a thought.

We have much less drama in our lives (complaining about others) and much more comedy (seeing the humor in our situation) when we stop trying to change the world around us and enjoy the world for all its absurd glory.

I'm assuming you're retired, and live alone? I'm guessing you no longer work, have no responsibility, no one you're responsible for taking care of, and are free to do whatever you'd like, whenever you'd like? Because although your logic may sound nice, it doesn't work in reality.

You have pretty much confirmed my statement that you are a complainer...
I do not live alone. I am not retired as I am 50 and still very happy with my job. I have the responsibilities that go with owning property and managing people in a real job.

[mj_87-old]

I know people love to say, "ohhh, the poor, poor Issan people -- we need to help them!". After a while of living here though, I have to say, I don't have much sympathy for them at all anymore. I don't think there's anything to feel sorry for. People love to say there's no opportunity for them up here, which is bullshit.
There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's they're poor.
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Material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth but it's far from the only one. The problem is people sometimes focus ONLY on material wealth as a measure of worth because it's the easiest thing to measure.
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I find the above statements alarming. 1st. the implication that most people in Issan are too lazy stupid and complacent to bother with opportunity, takes an entire region of a country and demonizes them as being not up to the posters standards of behavior.
2nd..equating material wealth with an individual's intrinsic worth as a human being debases all humans and implies that only those individuals with material possessions deserve the full measure of dignity and respect from other human beings. Holy Mother Teresa that is messed up.
Sorry gents but both of you are putting forward some pretty ugly sentiments.

[cdnmatt]

You have pretty much confirmed my statement that you are a complainer...

*scratches head*

Ummm, you were the one complaining because I'm a control freak... I was just defending myself.


and managing people in a real job.

A "real" job, eh? Yeah, I've heard about those, and don't want one. You have a boss dictating what you do, how much you get paid, etc. No thanks. I know people, mainly older, like to think I just "play" behind the computer. Don't worry, I may not work from a high-rise office building in Toronto, but my job carries responsibility too. Me dropping the ball equates to real-life consequences for quite a few people too (ie. can't feed their kids, can't pay mortgage), the same as your job. It's just you have a boss who tells you what to do, and I don't. :P

[thonglor55]

There's 6 people living here right nowOne up his ass, one in each hand, he's got his cock up the fourth, and each of his two faces is sucking off #5 and #6 :occasion9:

[Beachlover]

1st. the implication that most people in Issan are too lazy stupid and complacent to bother with opportunity, takes an entire region of a country and demonizes them as being not up to the posters standards of behavior.
When you make an observation as an outsider, you make it from your perspective, relative to your values and beliefs.

Matt's calling out a common weakness he's observed in Issan people. There's nothing wrong with that. He's committed himself to an Issan BF so I'm sure they have common traits he loves too.

I don't get your point about him being a "complainer". You seem to be complaining a lot here yourself.


equating material wealth with an individual's intrinsic worth as a human being debases all humans and implies that only those individuals with material possessions deserve the full measure of dignity and respect from other human beings. Holy Mother Teresa that is messed up.
Sorry gents but both of you are putting forward some pretty ugly sentiments.
Again, no one is saying an individual's material wealth is equal to their intrinsic worth. That's what you're spinning it into.

I'm simply saying material worth is ONE of the factors, which measures their contribution to the community as a whole. There are many other factors. Part of "being a decent human being" (as you say), is your ability to look after yourself and others around you. Material wealth is an significant factor in this.

From your position, it might be easy for you to say, people shouldn't all pursue material wealth and all. Come back to reality where there are people around you to feed and look after and you'll see it differently.

[mj_87-old]

[quote=mj_87]You have pretty much confirmed my statement that you are a complainer...

*scratches head*

Ummm, you were the one complaining because I'm a control freak... I was just defending myself.


and managing people in a real job.

A "real" job, eh? Yeah, I've heard about those, and don't want one. You have a boss dictating what you do, how much you get paid, etc. No thanks. I know people, mainly older, like to think I just "play" behind the computer. Don't worry, I may not work from a high-rise office building in Toronto, but my job carries responsibility too. Me dropping the ball equates to real-life consequences for quite a few people too (ie. can't feed their kids, can't pay mortgage), the same as your job. It's just you have a boss who tells you what to do, and I don't. :P[/quote:2mc95a8m]

mj scratches his head in return (hopefully not head lice) as I did not use the term control freak..sorry got that wrong..I observed that you are a complainer...the tone and volume of your posts confirms my observation.

[mj_87-old]

Matt's calling out a common weakness he's observed in Issan people. There's nothing wrong with that.
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When a person calls virtually everyone in an area lazy that is way past observing a "common weakness"...(ps it may be a common virtue...it always depends on your perspective)...and the complaining indicates that the poster beleives that his perspective and values are superior to vitually everyone in Issan...I am sure the good folks up there will be glad to hear it...Maybe they will elect him emperor to suss things out up there.
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I think it is clear that in your earlier statement you were equating material wealth with an individual's intrinsic worth. Glad to see that you are backing away from what is really a repugnant view that only those who have material wealth are worthy individuals...

And no you did not say that material worth is ONE of the factors... Your quote as posted below is that material worth is one of the most significant measures of an individuals worth. I would again say that regardless of wealth every individual is deserving of being treated with respect and dignity...maybe you think that only those with money have earned the right to be treated with respect and dignity as they are not inherent rights but rights aquired through the acquisition of money and material goods.

"Material wealth is one of the most significant measures of an individual's worth but it's far from the only one. The problem is people sometimes focus ONLY on material wealth as a measure of worth because it's the easiest thing to measure."

[Beachlover]

indicates that the poster beleives that his perspective and values are superior to vitually everyone in Issan
When it comes to commercial sense it certainly is. And by the sounds of it, his work ethic and responsibility for others is superior to what his BF's family has displayed too. It's natural to be frustrated by this. This doesn't mean he doesn't think they're human beings who deserve dignity and respect.


I think it is clear that in your earlier statement you were equating material wealth with an individual's intrinsic worth. Glad to see that you are backing away from what is really a repugnant view that only those who have material wealth are worthy individuals...
Nope. This is the problem. You're miss interpreting what I said. Read it again. I never equated material wealth alone with an individual's intrinsic worth. I said it was one of the factors. I said it was a significant factor. I did not say it is the ONLY factor. I've repeated this point to you several times. I even pointed out that it's a problem when people believe MW is the "only" measure of a person's worth.

And whether it's a significant measure or not, I never said those with money are the only ones with the right to be treated with dignity and respect. That's you putting a spin on it AGAIN.

What you've also done is belittled a guy who's doing his best to help their BF succeed in business with guidance and funding and working hard to look after people around him and allocate scarce resources, which would otherwise likely be pissed away... Do you really think it's fair to call all this his "mind fuck project" or call him a "complainer"?

Perhaps mj_87 could enlighten us with a post about what he has done to help improve the lives of those around him. And what the end product was and is.

[cdnmatt]

I would again say that regardless of wealth every individual is deserving of being treated with respect and dignity...maybe you think that only those with money have earned the right to be treated with respect and dignity as they are not inherent rights but rights aquired through the acquisition of money and material goods.

I think everyone here would agree that every human should be treated with dignity and respect, but to think wealth doesn't matter simply isn't realistic. Like it or not, this is the world we live in, and you do get treated with more respect if you're wealthy & successful. Hey, I didn't signup to get born into this world either, and it just happened. From my experience though, people don't care about the fact you're wealthy, but the fact that you're a person who's capable & dedicated enough to make themselves wealthy. That's what they care about, and that's why they give you additional respect. Not because you have a big bank account, but because you're capable of making a big bank account.


and the complaining indicates that the poster beleives that his perspective and values are superior to vitually everyone in Issan

Not at all, and people can live however they see fit. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Just don't try to garner sympathy off me simply because I'm Canadian and you're Thai, while you've more than proven yourself to be lazy, incompetent, and unwilling to learn. It's not my fault you decided to lay around watching TV & drinking whiskey all week. I've have more than enough of my own problems, than to worry about every lazy cunt who shows up at my house.


mj scratches his head in return (hopefully not head lice) as I did not use the term control freak..sorry got that wrong..I observed that you are a complainer...the tone and volume of your posts confirms my observation.

You said you think I'm playing sick mind fuck games with Kim, asked if I had control issues, and said I like to control my environment. *scratches head*

PS. You're right, I've been complaining more than I should in the past little while. Bit of a stressful week, that's all, and this board is a good place to vent.

[mj_87-old]

And whether it's a significant measure or not, I never said those with money are the only ones with the right to be treated with dignity and respect. That's you putting a spin on it AGAIN.

What you've also done is belittled a guy who's doing his best to help their BF succeed in business with guidance and funding and working hard to look after people around him and allocate scarce resources, which would otherwise likely be pissed away... Do you really think it's fair to call all this his "mind fuck project" or call him a "complainer"?[/quote]
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No I have read your words and you clearly stated that material weath was one of the most important factors in a persons worth...I read that to be you value money and material wealth and those who have it are more important than those who do not have it. We can go for sophmoric examples...the mentally challenged person working a menial job is of less worth than the rich person because they produce fewer consumable goods for the economy. The pastor, minister, or monk who has nothing is obviously of less importance than a billionaire because they pursue something other than material gain...etc.. What is the rank order of material wealth in your calculation of a person's worth? You said it was one of the most important things? Top 2 factors in determining a person's worth? Give me a number? or a formula? that would be interesting.

The other poster belittled most of Issan people by claiming in Issan "There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it." Clearly all of Issan is not lazy, stupid and complacent? or do you share the same opinion?

[mj_87-old]

Perhaps mj_87 could enlighten us with a post about what he has done to help improve the lives of those around him. And what the end product was and is.

I set up a charitable giving scheme when I am in thailand on my regular visits..It consists of giving to the disadvantaged bar boys money and the wisdom of my years.

[mj_87-old]

From my experience though, people don't care about the fact you're wealthy, but the fact that you're a person who's capable & dedicated enough to make themselves wealthy. That's what they care about, and that's why they give you additional respect. Not because you have a big bank account, but because you're capable of making a big bank account.

You said you think I'm playing sick mind fuck games with Kim, asked if I had control issues, and said I like to control my environment. *scratches head*

PS. You're right, I've been complaining more than I should in the past little while. Bit of a stressful week, that's all, and this board is a good place to vent.----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From my experience people are interested in each other for company and companionship. We have a very different view of why people associate with each other. I don't think all people only care about the ability of other people to have big bank accounts.

No I did not say you were playing sick mind games..go back to my posts..Sorry...wrong.

Finally, you come accross to me as a complainer....if you want to complain at least tell an interesting funny story versus a whiny bitch session.

I set up a charitable giving scheme when I am in thailand on my regular visits..It consists of giving to the disadvantaged bar boys money and the wisdom of my years.

Then Thailand can at last sleep safely at night knowing there are such generous benefactors around who have the well being of their disadvantaged youth in mind.

I set up a charitable giving scheme when I am in thailand on my regular visits..It consists of giving to the disadvantaged bar boys money and the wisdom of my years.

Then Thailand can at last sleep safely at night knowing there are such generous benefactors around who have the well being of their disadvantaged youth in mind.

These selfless punters, sharing the knowledge accumulated from years of sex tourism, clearly help each boy to widen his circle.

I doff my cap to them.

:occasion9:

[Beachlover]

I set up a charitable giving scheme when I am in thailand on my regular visits..It consists of giving to the disadvantaged bar boys money and the wisdom of my years.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this sounds awfully close to saying, "I off lots of boys when I am in Thailand on my regular visits... it consists of me screwing the disadvantaged bar boys and giving them money and the benefit of my mouth around their cock."


No I have read your words and you clearly stated that material weath was one of the most important factors in a persons worth...I read that to be you value money and material wealth and those who have it are more important than those who do not have it.
Nope. That's you spinning it into a speculative conclusion again. I don't value people using a single axis. But yes, I think material wealth that one has built is an important measure. In a capitalist society, it is a significant measure of how much value one has added to the economy and the community. But this doesn't mean it can't be out done or excluded by other measures and factors.


I think everyone here would agree that every human should be treated with dignity and respect, but to think wealth doesn't matter simply isn't realistic. Like it or not, this is the world we live in, and you do get treated with more respect if you're wealthy & successful.
Well said. There's nothing wrong with it. And being wealthy/successful are obviously NOT the only reasons for people to be treated with more respect. But for some reason some people are entirely against wealth/success being a measure at all... never mind that they may have gotten wealthy through medical research or inventing better energy sources.


The other poster belittled most of Issan people by claiming in Issan "There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it." Clearly all of Issan is not lazy, stupid and complacent? or do you share the same opinion?
He made an observation in an attempt to explain why Issan is the poorest region in Thailand. Are you so politically correct that this is an unacceptable opinion to voice? Some people believe corruption is a key reason Thailand hasn't gotten as far as it could as a country. Are you going to jump on that and say that's belittling Thai people and calling all of them corrupt?


From my experience people are interested in each other for company and companionship. We have a very different view of why people associate with each other. I don't think all people only care about the ability of other people to have big bank accounts.
I don't believe all people associate with others for money. But you must be incredibly naive to think nobody out there does this. Matt's observed this amongst some of the people he's run into since living there. It's human nature.


No I did not say you were playing sick mind games..go back to my posts.
You said words to that effect - "sounds to me like you are using Kim as your special mind fuck projects."


Finally, you come accross to me as a complainer....if you want to complain at least tell an interesting funny story versus a whiny bitch session.

He did tell a story. He's told lots of stories. Some of them quite funny. Plenty of members found this one interesting but you've complained the most about it. You're a complete hypocrite.

You still haven't justified criticising him for trying to help his BF grow a successful business through funding and guidance. Or for working hard to allocate scarce resources to look after the people around him. All you seem to want to do is bitch about him being a "complainer" and wanting to control other people.

[cdnmatt]

From my experience people are interested in each other for company and companionship. We have a very different view of why people associate with each other. I don't think all people only care about the ability of other people to have big bank accounts.

Wasn't talking about friends, but just general respect from people you constantly encounter in everyday life. For example, take the two lazy ladyboys who are constantly sleeping here, and the hard-working, successful engineer living beside me. Who do you think I have more respect for? And like it or not, he bought that respect with his wealth, because that proves he has what it takes to make it in this life.


Finally, you come accross to me as a complainer....if you want to complain at least tell an interesting funny story versus a whiny bitch session.

I don't know, I just write about my life & experiences. Sometimes life is relaxing, care-free, and great. Other times it's hard, stressful, and full of problems. Usually it's somewhere in the middle. Welcome to reality.

[mj_87-old]

[quote=mj_87]From my experience people are interested in each other for company and companionship. We have a very different view of why people associate with each other. I don't think all people only care about the ability of other people to have big bank accounts.
Wasn't talking about friends, but just general respect from people you constantly encounter in everyday life. For example, take the two lazy ladyboys who are constantly sleeping here, and the hard-working, successful engineer living beside me. Who do you think I have more respect for? And like it or not, he bought that respect with his wealth, because that proves he has what it takes to make it in this life.

Finally, you come accross to me as a complainer....if you want to complain at least tell an interesting funny story versus a whiny bitch session.
I don't know, I just write about my life & experiences. Sometimes life is relaxing, care-free, and great. Other times it's hard, stressful, and full of problems. Usually it's somewhere in the middle. Welcome to reality.[/quote:xiau1vtv]

I suspect that we have a vastly different view of the world. I do not intereact with the world soley with the hope of finding someone who will increase my bank account size.

You do write about your life and I perceive that mostly your comments are complaints. What started this thread was your complaint that "There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor." I perceive that you have very negative attitudes and views toward thais (and maybe the world)...I find that boring. Beachlover will of course come to your rescue with a FLOOD of insightful replies ..are you guys the same poster?

[Smiles]

" ... I find that boring. Beachlover will of course come to your rescue with a FLOOD of insightful replies ..are you guys the same poster? ... "
That possibility has been a minor mull of mine for awhile now. No proof available of course (that being the main reason why flooders flood and trollers troll on the internet), but a delicious concept nonetheless.

[Beachlover]

I perceive that you have very negative attitudes and views toward thais (and maybe the world)...
I'd call it realistic and balanced, given it comes from someone who is surrounded by poorer Thai people who have become a big part of his life day in day out.

You sound like you're comfortably setup (financially) with little responsibility for others and not much real life interaction with poorer Asians... so your dainty rose tinted view of poorer Thais and Asians in general is understandable but very naive.


That possibility has been a minor mull of mine for awhile now. No proof available of course (that being the main reason why flooders flood and trollers troll on the internet), but a delicious concept nonetheless.
Keep mulling over it if it occupies your grandiose mind, Smiles... I've never been to Canada or Khon Kaen. Only similarities between cdnmatt and I are we're both in our 20s, gay and run our own business.

[mj_87-old]

...

[mj_87-old]

I perceive that you have very negative attitudes and views toward thais (and maybe the world)...
I'd call it realistic and balanced, given it comes from someone who is surrounded by poorer Thai people who have become a big part of his life day in day out.

You sound like you're comfortably setup (financially) with little responsibility for others and not much real life interaction with poorer Asians... so your dainty rose tinted view of poorer Thais and Asians in general is understandable but very naive.

That possibility has been a minor mull of mine for awhile now. No proof available of course (that being the main reason why flooders flood and trollers troll on the internet), but a delicious concept nonetheless.
Keep mulling over it if it occupies your grandiose mind, Smiles... I've never been to Canada or Khon Kaen. Only similarities between cdnmatt and I are we're both in our 20s, gay and run our own business.

Go back to the original post...
"There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor."

Calling virtually everyone in Issan lazy stupid and complacent is not a realistic and balanced view....negative and condesending is a better descritption. If the original poster wants to say..."Gee in Issan I interact with nothing but low life thais who try to suck the life and money out of me and I am getting bitter and angry as a result" then fine he would be describing his specific experiences...fine...no problems. He would still come accross as negative but it would be more about his specific experiences.

I am comfortable financially..and I would rather be wearing rose tinted glasses than the glasses that give you such a dark and negative view of the world (just my observation based on your comments)

[Beachlover]

I agree calling EVERY Issan person poor and lazy isn't right. But you can't deny it is the poorest region of Thailand and its people do have a reputation for being not so hard working. Matt's simply trying to explain this. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule - one of my ex BFs was from Issan, finished university at 19 or 20, started his own business and worked in good jobs before coming out to Australia off his own back - but Matt's simply looking to explain what he sees. And I think he's right. It's not mostly for lack of opportunity. It's the culture and values they're brought up with.

Your views of how many people (not all) in the poorer parts of Asia behave is rose tinted. I'd love to see you live where Matt's living and not come away with a more realistic view of them. I don't think he's turning bitter - just adapting to the reality and doing his best to react positively and constructively while looking after the people around him.

[mj_87-old]

I agree calling EVERY Issan person poor and lazy isn't right. But you can't deny it is the poorest region of Thailand and its people do have a reputation for being not so hard working. Matt's simply trying to explain this. There are plenty of exceptions to the rule - one of my ex BFs was from Issan, finished university at 19 or 20, started his own business and worked in good jobs before coming out to Australia off his own back - but Matt's simply looking to explain what he sees. And I think he's right. It's not mostly for lack of opportunity. It's the culture and values they're brought up with.
Your views of how many people (not all) in the poorer parts of Asia behave is rose tinted. I'd love to see you live where Matt's living and not come away with a more realistic view of them. I don't think he's turning bitter - just adapting to the reality and doing his best to react positively and constructively while looking after the people around him.
----------------------------------------
Unless you and the other poster are the same person he needs to post and tell us what he means...I don't need you interpreting his words for me. As for my views of poor parts of Asia..you don't know what my views are except that in contrast to you (apparently) I believe that all people should be treated with a certain amount of respect even if they are poor (and worthless lazy fucks according to some posters).

[cdnmatt]

Go back to the original post...
"There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor."

Calling virtually everyone in Issan lazy stupid and complacent is not a realistic and balanced view....negative and condesending is a better descritption. If the original poster wants to say..."Gee in Issan I interact with nothing but low life thais who try to suck the life and money out of me and I am getting bitter and angry as a result" then fine he would be describing his specific experiences...fine...no problems. He would still come accross as negative but it would be more about his specific experiences.

Go read the original post again, because you're distorting it. I didn't say every last person in Issan is lazy & stupid. What I did say is after my experience living here, that "oh poor me from Issan" story doesn't hold much water. Again, there's loads of opportunity here, and tons of people have decided to work hard, and have setup a good, comfortable, financially worry free life for themselves. So the next time you're in a bar in Pattaya, chatting up a cute Issan guy, and he gives you the "poor me from Issan" story, I wouldn't worry about feeling too much sympathy for him. If anything that's counter-productive, because it just re-enforces their victimization mindset.


I am comfortable financially..and I would rather be wearing rose tinted glasses than the glasses that give you such a dark and negative view of the world (just my observation based on your comments)

But you have the luxury of wearing rose tinted glasses, because you're on the outside. Living in the middle of it, and having it affect your day-to-day life is a bit different, wouldn't you say? How about Kim's papa, who shows up at our house like clockwork looking for money, and for the past several months we gave around 6000/month. With that, he couldn't even be bothered to buy his own son a single shirt, because he was too busy spending that money on alcohol. We had to buy the kids clothes, as they wore Kim's the entire time they were here, because they don't have any.

Would you have sympathy for him, and keep freely handing him money? Now he gets about 2000/month, and the knowledge that anything he ever needs for himself or the kids, it's taken care of; clothes, cooking utensils, fans, lights, mattresses, toilet, whatever. Just let us know, we'll all goto the market together, and pick it up, free of charge. So far he hasn't asked for anything -- he just wants money.

[Diec]

Sounds like little Kim and his family found themselves a nice little sucker. I'm sure glad I don't have to put up with people in and out of my house at all times of the day, leaving it filthy because they are too stupid or lazy to throw egg shells in the trash 2 feet away, giving the entire family money. Sounds like an awful lot of your life to give up for true love. I'm sure Beachbore will jump to your defense and explain it all for us simple folk.

[Beachlover]

I believe that all people should be treated with a certain amount of respect even if they are poor (and worthless lazy fucks according to some posters).
Has Matt done anything to suggest he hasn't treated everyone around him with a decent amount of respect? Have I suggested otherwise? I think someone who works hard to provide for those around them should be given more respect. I didn't say someone who fails shouldn't still be given a decent level of respect humans deserve.

What you conveniently ignore is that you can't justify your original posts... (1) belittling Matt for giving his BF guidance and financial support in his business and (2) calling him a control freak for working hard to look after those around him by allocating scarce resources, which would otherwise be pissed away... with any rationale or reasoning.


What I did say is after my experience living here, that "oh poor me from Issan" story doesn't hold much water.
Totally agree. There is enough opportunity up there. But most people are heavily influenced by their surroundings. "Person + Environment = degree of success achieved". Unfortunately, no matter how bright or motivated many of these people are, they won't have the benefit of being surrounded by good role models and positive and ambitious mindsets on a day to day basis... a sad fact.


But you have the luxury of wearing rose tinted glasses, because you're on the outside. Living in the middle of it, and having it affect your day-to-day life is a bit different, wouldn't you say?
This is question MJ_87 can't answer, what he would do in your shoes. All he's able to do is criticise without offering a solution or superior alternative.

That is a bit shit his Papa has turned into a leech for you. He's found an easy way to derive cash and have the kids' overheads covered. It's like he's struck the lottery.

If you feel he is taking advantage of it and pushing the generosity, I would consider winding back the cash "benefits". Take them out for a meal every now and then but don't hand over cash. If he is shameless enough to ask, tell him you are short on cash that month or that you've spent the money looking after the kids. The alternative is to let Kim take care of the parent welfare payments - a good idea now that you've helped him develop the means to make an income and take care of that.

I imagine it's tough with the kids there because you don't want the kids to suffer, so perhaps look after them to a certain extent, but limit the cash you hand over to Papa.

I guess you have now found the driver behind Kim's history of working in a bunch of crappy bottom of the barrel jobs and then going off to Pattaya to be a bar boy. It sounds like the parents, or maybe just the Dad, have no sense of responsibility or the desire to earn a worthy livelyhood to provide their kids a safe and stable environment.

[cdnmatt]

If you feel he is taking advantage of it and pushing the generosity, I would consider winding back the cash "benefits".

Already done. :-) I had no problem helping out the family, until I realized none of it's going to the kids. So now papa gets a little bit, we'll take care of the kids when they come over (gone now), and we'll make sure papa knows if he ever needs anything, just let us know, and it's covered. Clothes, maybe a heating lantern for the cold season that's just started, or whatever. We can all goto the market, they can choose what they want, and Kim and myself will pickup the bill. Up to him.

The way I see it, regardless of how much we give at any given time, only 500 will go to the kids (food, toiletries, etc.), and the rest will goto alcohol. Doesn't matter if we give 1000 or 3000, probably only 500 will get to the kids, so there's no point in giving cash.


I guess you have now found the driver behind Kim's history of working in a bunch of crappy bottom of the barrel jobs and then going off to Pattaya to be a bar boy. It sounds like the parents, or maybe just the Dad, have no sense of responsibility or the desire to earn a worthy livelyhood to provide their kids a safe and stable environment.

Exactly. I'm pretty certain that's why Kim's such a rude cunt to his parents. I could never imagine treating my parents like that. For example, kids were staying here two weeks already, sister comes into our room and lets us know papa is on the way. Kim just shrugs his shoulders, and says, "well, I'm off to work!". Heads out, papa shows up around 11am, and Kim doesn't get home until around 10pm, whereas he's usually home around 7pm. I was busy that day too, so didn't get home myself until 9pm.

They were stuck sitting there by themselves all day, and Kim didn't care in the slightest. He brought loads of food home, cooked up a huge meal and everything, but nonetheless. I was always dumbfounded by that behavior, but think I understand it now. I think it's just his polite way of saying, "you divorced when I was 9 because you were a violent drunk, I've been working away from home since I was 10, you never cared for or supported me, so fuck you", type of thing. He'll never admit to that, but I'm pretty certain it's what goes through his mind.

[Beachlover]

Well, good on you for looking after the kids.

Your parents can do some pretty bad things and there can still be an underlying draw to love them. It's strange.

Regardless of Kim's mixed feelings for his parents, I think it's likely he will derive a lot of pride and satisfaction from looking after his little Brothers and Sisters. Whatever he's done in the past, it should make him happy to provide and care for his siblings.


Kim just shrugs his shoulders, and says, "well, I'm off to work!".

That's great... So he's into a healthy, working routine now and probably feeling good about earning a good living and proud about what he's accomplished for himself.

[mj_87-old]

I believe that all people should be treated with a certain amount of respect even if they are poor (and worthless lazy fucks according to some posters).
Has Matt done anything to suggest he hasn't treated everyone around him with a decent amount of respect? Have I suggested otherwise? I think someone who works hard to provide for those around them should be given more respect. I didn't say someone who fails shouldn't still be given a decent level of respect humans deserve.
What you conveniently ignore is that you can't justify your original posts... (1) belittling Matt for giving his BF guidance and financial support in his business and (2) calling him a control freak for working hard to look after those around him by allocating scarce resources, which would otherwise be pissed away... with any rationale or reasoning.
Am I talking to cdnmatt or beachlover? they seem to overlap...Go back to the quote in the original post.
"There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor." That statement is loaded with disrespect toward the people around him.
If he wants to relate to his experiences fine..Let me give you an example...I am a hard working guy who works harder than anyone in the household. I have a thai boyfriend who was a worthless piece of shite who had values that were common in Issan..However, I have successfully trained him in the capitalist mind set so that he is a proper little worker bee and makes a contribution to society by working at a job. I approve the change he has made in himself (with my guidance) and he is a better person for changing.

I have had the sob story put on me plenty of times and I tell the boy sorry it is not my problem...That is what I would do if I was in cdnmatt's place. I would not get on a gay website and tell everyone what a big pile of shit my boyfriend, his family and everyone else in Issan is compared to how I want them to be.

[cdnmatt]

Am I talking to cdnmatt or beachlover? they seem to overlap...Go back to the quote in the original post.
"There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor." That statement is loaded with disrespect toward the people around him.

I bet you're one of those guys who watches FOX News, and actually believes they're "fair & balanced", aren't you? Don't worry about the actual content or context of a message, but just pick out a single sentence to validate your personal prejudice. That's always a much better way foward...

Other than that, fuck off, up to you, and believe what you want...

[mj_87-old]

Am I talking to cdnmatt or beachlover? they seem to overlap...Go back to the quote in the original post.
"There's loads of opportunity here, but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor." That statement is loaded with disrespect toward the people around him.
I bet you're one of those guys who watches FOX News, and actually believes they're "fair & balanced", aren't you? Don't worry about the actual content or context of a message, but just pick out a single sentence to validate your personal prejudice. That's always a much better way foward...
Other than that, fuck off, up to you, and believe what you want...

Registered independent who believes fox news is shit. I also belonged to the American Civil Liberties Union at one point.sorry I am a pretty hard core liberal..so what is your point exactly? My point is that if you want to talk about your experiences then talk about your experiences but try not to bore the crap out of me by complaining about how everyone around you is worthless and by extension you are the only person in all of Issan who has the Calvanist work ethic that makes people such valuable human beings...oh..sorry was that beachlover...I get confused.

[Beachlover]

Other than that, fuck off,
That's the spirit! Nice to see the ball sack I delivered yesterday works. :blackeye:


My point is that
Wasn't your point (which you made from your comfortable and financially secure throne with no dependents) that he had an issue with wanting to control other people?


if you want to talk about your experiences then talk about your experiences but try not to bore the crap out of me by complaining
Mate, you've made 19 posts in this thread. Being "bored" has nothing to do with your original points. You're just looking for a bridge to retreat across because you can't justify any of the criticism you've made.

[mj_87-old]

[quote=cdnmatt]Other than that, fuck off,
That's the spirit! Nice to see the ball sack I delivered yesterday works. :blackeye:


My point is that
Wasn't your point (which you made from your comfortable and financially secure throne with no dependents) that he had an issue with wanting to control other people?


if you want to talk about your experiences then talk about your experiences but try not to bore the crap out of me by complaining
Mate, you've made 19 posts in this thread. Being "bored" has nothing to do with your original points. You're just looking for a bridge to retreat across because you can't justify any of the criticism you've made.[/quote:1irshuma]
Sorry Mate..my comments are that cdnmatt is complaining about his life and I find it boring...and refer to another thread on post counting...I hear you are prolific at posting. Though I generally follow the rule of not reading your posts because I generally find them boring as well..(I know I can be cruel..don't cry).

[Beachlover]

You criticise his actions but can't justify what you say or offer any better solution: Complainer

You complain about him being a complainer: Hypocrite

You complain about him boring you when you've made 19 replies: Lier - If you were bored you would have skipped the thread. You stopped and made 19 comments because you found something interesting and had something to say.

[mj_87-old]

You criticise his actions but can't justify what you say or offer any better solution: Complainer
You complain about him being a complainer: Hypocrite
You complain about him boring you when you've made 19 replies: Lier - If you were bored you would have skipped the thread. You stopped and made 19 comments because you found something interesting and had something to say.

I think you might be saying I am a liar not a lier? Not sure.
I critisize his postings..they are complaining and self serving...boring.
I also find it offensive when an individuals describes an entire group of people as (wait for it...you know it is coming!) "but people are simply too lazy, stupid, and complacent to bother with it. That's why they're poor."
You are getting a bit testy beachlover...am I starting to get a bit under your skin? Oh my sorry to be a bother.
I enjoy seeing you being cdnmatts apologist...one reason I post...the cdnmatts posts themselves are boring.

[cdnmatt]

Sorry Mate..my comments are that cdnmatt is complaining about his life and I find it boring...

If my life is boring, then your life must be exceptionally boring if you find the time to complain about how boring you think my life is.

Once again, piss off... you've already proven yourself incapable of having a rational discussion, so there's not much point in trying to have civil discourse with you.

[mj_87-old]

Sorry Mate..my comments are that cdnmatt is complaining about his life and I find it boring...
If my life is boring, then your life must be exceptionally boring if you find the time to complain about how boring you think my life is.
Once again, piss off... you've already proven yourself incapable of having a rational discussion, so there's not much point in trying to have civil discourse with you.
True..my life is very boring.Just the other day I wiped my ass with 7 sheets of toilet paper and wrote a blog entry describing my experience.

We were having a civil discourse until you told me to fuck off and piss off.
I have been pointing out to you in a very civil way that your posts are basically complaints about how fucked up everyone in your life is with the major exception to that being yourself. I also pointed out in a very civil way that you basically said everyone up in Issan is a lazy fuck and again the major exception to that observation is yourself....All very civil..mate.

[Beachlover]

Sorry Mate..my comments are that cdnmatt is complaining about his life and I find it boring...
you've already proven yourself incapable of having a rational discussion

Sums it up well. MJ_87 made a number of points he couldn't rationally justify.

Conveniently, he still can't justify (1) belittling you for giving Kim guidance and financial support in his business and (2) calling you a control freak for working hard to look after those around you by allocating scarce resources. He goes on to say his entire point altogether is that you are boring.

What a completely unintelligent moron. He even had the idea that "changing the behaviour of another human being to meet your needs" in any way is wrong. I wonder, when one of hiss staff didn't deliver on time did he say to them, "that's ok, I'll still pay you, you just go have a lie down"? When his property agent couldn't find a new tenant for a month did he just say, "no worries, I'll keep paying the mortgage out of my own pocket, you just find a tenant whenever you feel like it"? Because if he has ever done otherwise then he's a complete hypocrite.


your posts are basically complaints
Nope. Complaints form a very small part of his posts. He makes observations and reasoned opinions. He posts about challenges and what he's doing to overcome them. He doesn't sit here bitching that someone else is posting something he could easily skip/ignore instead of reading.

You're the ONLY poster who does nothing but complain in this thread... Probably too thick to realise that.

[mj_87-old]

[quote=mj_87]Sorry Mate..my comments are that cdnmatt is complaining about his life and I find it boring...
you've already proven yourself incapable of having a rational discussion
Sums it up well. MJ_87 made a number of points he couldn't rationally justify.
Conveniently, he still can't justify (1) belittling you for giving Kim guidance and financial support in his business and (2) calling you a control freak for working hard to look after those around you by allocating scarce resources. He goes on to say his entire point altogether is that you are boring.
What a completely unintelligent moron. He even had the idea that "changing the behaviour of another human being to meet your needs" in any way is wrong. I wonder, when one of hiss staff didn't deliver on time did he say to them, "that's ok, I'll still pay you, you just go have a lie down"? When his property agent couldn't find a new tenant for a month did he just say, "no worries, I'll keep paying the mortgage out of my own pocket, you just find a tenant whenever you feel like it"? Because if he has ever done otherwise then he's a complete hypocrite.

your posts are basically complaints
Nope. Complaints form a very small part of his posts. He makes observations and reasoned opinions. He posts about challenges and what he's doing to overcome them. He doesn't sit here bitching that someone else is posting somethinboring he could easily skip/ignore instead of reading.
You're the ONLY poster who does nothing but complain in this thread... Probably too thick to realise that.[/quote:9ayxf3a6]
Beachlover..you are an apologist for cdnmat..how cute. No the majority of his posts are complaints..boring..and now you are getting insulting..a sure sign I am getting a bit under your skin. Sorry go back and check my posts..did not use the term control freak. I think you used the term. Liar..

and my comment was "Ah..now the response is probably..well I am just trying to look out after my partner and make sure they succeed and are not taken advantage of by other people...Fair enough..I would say...but you are still trying to change the behavior of another human being to meet your needs...Classic control behavior." a very insightful observation I think...but certainly not a statement which you claim I made that the behavior is wrong..sorry you are wroing again...you need more nuance in your thinking beachlover.

[Beachlover]

You told him he had control problems for needing to "control" people around him. Pretty much calling him a control freak. You still can't justify it. You can't call his posts boring for complaining when the last 20 posts you've made are nothing but complaints about one poster's posts, which you're under no obligation to read but choose to.

You also have an incredibly naive and ignorant view of how poorer Asians in Thailand and many South-East Asian countries think and behave and you use this to deliver the most ridiculous, irrational and non-constructive criticism. I doubt your experience with poorer Asians goes past stepping into Pattaya gogo bars and offing money boys. You're probably dumb enough to believe gogo boys have no choice in taking that bar job. Worse, you criticise his actions harshly without offering any sort of solution or superior alternative because you're comfortably setup with no dependents or family to provide for and too thick to put yourself in his shoes and think about what this might entail.

[Brad the Impala]

Sorry Mate..my comments are that cdnmatt is complaining about his life and I find it boring

So you decided to respond by seeing if you could be even more boring yourself, again and again and..........................

[cdnmatt]

and my comment was "Ah..now the response is probably..well I am just trying to look out after my partner and make sure they succeed and are not taken advantage of by other people...Fair enough..I would say...but you are still trying to change the behavior of another human being to meet your needs...Classic control behavior." a very insightful observation I think...but certainly not a statement which you claim I made that the behavior is wrong..sorry you are wroing again...you need more nuance in your thinking beachlover.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Rizzor/beatingadeadhorse.gif

and my comment was "Ah..now the response is probably..well I am just trying to look out after my partner and make sure they succeed and are not taken advantage of by other people...Fair enough..I would say...but you are still trying to change the behavior of another human being to meet your needs...Classic control behavior." a very insightful observation I think...but certainly not a statement which you claim I made that the behavior is wrong..sorry you are wroing again...you need more nuance in your thinking beachlover.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Rizzor/beatingadeadhorse.gif

Good one Matt

[mj_87-old]

and my comment was "Ah..now the response is probably..well I am just trying to look out after my partner and make sure they succeed and are not taken advantage of by other people...Fair enough..I would say...but you are still trying to change the behavior of another human being to meet your needs...Classic control behavior." a very insightful observation I think...but certainly not a statement which you claim I made that the behavior is wrong..sorry you are wroing again...you need more nuance in your thinking beachlover.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Rizzor/beatingadeadhorse.gif

Good one Matt
Good one indead...sometimes dead horses need to be beaten..
I suggest if you are going to turn that lazy Issaner (Issanite, Issanese? hmm...what is the proper term?) Kim into a good little capitalist make sure he has a proper grounding in economic theory...make him read Hayek (fredrick not selma) and Milton Friedman.

Hi,

I think your post may be a little harsh or generalistic on Isaarn people.

I know many that are not at all lazy including all Tam's working brothers who support families and are landscape gardeners,separated from family to bring in the bread,by working in Bangkok,as people want everything doing for free in their native towns in Isaarn. They are not thick or stupid,they just find it hard to say No to people from their village.

My b/f of 15 years is Isaarn people and can struggle when he is in sole charge of funds and responds a whole lot better when I am controlling the purse strings.

I also think that they can use you or me,or should I say bounce off us, when they speak to their families or peers and state they must report back the monies taken,ingoings,outgoings to us thus removing the constant pressures,and they are real and constant pressures,of friends,fair weather friends and family members who always all of a sudden have URGENT problems that require monies immediately.

You and I know these problems are imaginary or downright lies,but again its peer pressure.They also get barraged and accused of forgetting those in need now that their doing well etc etc.

I used to have a wife that could be trusted to cashier my takings in the UK nightclubs,on many occasions totalling thousands and thousands,without error or mistake on an evening but got in a mess with her personal finances and credit cards every month!

I had to get out of my hometown in the UK to make any money in the bar/nightclub industry as everyone wanted the beer for free,free entrance and a bloody taxi home as well if they thought they could get away with it.

Just another point of view,


Kevin.

[Beachlover]

I think there are hard working Isaan people about. And for those that do well, they do have this dilemma of being surrounded by family, friends and acquaintances who are not doing so well and constantly need help in some form or another. So do you help them and drag yourself down or do you do the pragmatic (but heartless) thing and say no? That's life.

My philosophy is, if you're doing well, help out, but not to the extent that it completely drags down your own plans.

I think Isaan culture is far more collective (less individualistic) and this makes it harder for them to say "no" than it would be for your typical Westerner.

I think there are hard working Isaan people about. And for those that do well, they do have this dilemma of being surrounded by family, friends and acquaintances who are not doing so well and constantly need help in some form or another. So do you help them and drag yourself down or do you do the pragmatic (but heartless) thing and say no? That's life.

My philosophy is, if you're doing well, help out, but not to the extent that it completely drags down your own plans.

I think Isaan culture is far more collective (less individualistic) and this makes it harder for them to say "no" than it would be for your typical Westerner.

Hi,

I find that quite fair,I've spent quite a lot of time up there and agree with you.

The educartion standards aren't great,that's why many originally descended on BKK and Pattaya etc. to better themselves.

The lure of the lights made many forget about home and responsibilities as it does in many big western cities for youngsters.

It is true some of the parents just sit and gamble money away sent to them from their children or drink it

.My b/f mother neither gambles,drinks or smokes. never has

I think there are hard working Isaan people about. And for those that do well, they do have this dilemma of being surrounded by family, friends and acquaintances who are not doing so well and constantly need help in some form or another. So do you help them and drag yourself down or do you do the pragmatic (but heartless) thing and say no? That's life.

I think this is a very important point. It explains why it is difficult (and maybe irrational) to save and invest in poorer circumstances.

In western personal finance, people are advised to do is to have a 'rainy day fund' of maybe 3 or 6 month salary. One should make sacrafices to build this fund, so goes the advice. This is rational, because if one faces an emergency like losing a job or facing a sudden medical bill, one can afford it without having to take drastic measures, like selling a kidney or going into crippling debt. However, if you're surrounded by friends and family who don't have their own rainy day funds, but do have emergencies (and some are real), you'll end up spending your rainy day fund on someone else. Your could lie, but then you'd have the knowledge that you have the means to come to the aid of someone you love, but didn't. The rational thing therefore (assuming the selfish individual), is not to make sacrafices to build a rainy day fund, and rely on the collective when you yourself have an emergency.

The same applies for saving to start a business, or whether to use your businesses money to buy new stock or fix someone elses emergency. There is always that pressure to spend your seed money on the day to day, and this leads to self-perpetuating poverty.

[danny99]

I know people love to say, "ohhh, the poor, poor Issan people -- we need to help them!". After a while of living here though, I have to say, I don't have much sympathy for them at all anymore. I don't think there's anything to feel sorry for. People love to say there's no opportunity for them up here, which is bullshit.

They can make a decent living for themselves if they wanted to.

What about the thousands of Isaan boys driving taxis [almost every all nighter in Bangkok] working as waiters/barmen [even though they may be able to earn much more as go-go or massage, etc]...do you think they are lazy too. Sounds a bit like 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' attitude?

I do not think places such as The Balcony on Soi 4 could even exist if it wasn't for their Isaan workers?

I doubt if there is a city in any country of the world where a percentage of the young [and old] are too lazy to help themselves but don't categorise the majority by the minority.

Hi,

I agree with your above post.

In UK they are now introducing tough proposals to get families off state benefit where they are on their third generation of zero employment because they received more on benefits than in paid work.Something wrong with that kind of system,for sure.

A bit of an eye opener if you haven't been in the UK for quite a while, like me!

[Beachlover]

if you're surrounded by friends and family who don't have their own rainy day funds, but do have emergencies (and some are real), you'll end up spending your rainy day fund on someone else.
they are real and constant pressures,of friends,fair weather friends and family members who always all of a sudden have URGENT problems that require monies immediately.
True, that's a problem when you live amongst people who don't think and plan ahead or think beyond their OWN needs.

There's two kinds of people; (1) people who don't think and plan beyond their own needs and (2) people who think beyond themselves and ensure they're able to look after people around them. I think in Isaan you probably get more of the former...


They also get barraged and accused of forgetting those in need now that their doing well etc etc.
My parents had to put up with a lot of this when I was growing up. At some point they had to draw the line or have their own finances dragged under but unfortunately some people in Asian cultures get nasty with jealousy and feel they're entitled to something because you're doing a little better than them.

A lot of Asians (not just Isaan) have this "help the weakest" mentality and often have little shame with taking or accepting handouts from those better off than they are. It's like that amongst my family members. I've lent out over $40k in the last year alone helping family out in "emergencies".

Collective or not, the poorer guys who end up doing better or are working/saving towards it need to draw a line some where. You have to be able to help yourself before you help others. Best thing they can do for themselves and those around them.

A lot of Chinese-related families and parents seem to have a different mentality. They try to give as much to their offspring as they can and try to take as little as possible because they want to see their offspring prosper. If I take my Dad to an expensive restaurant he tries to order the cheaper dishes. My Mum complained to no end recently because I forked out to get her business class seats for a few flights (no way am I putting her in economy - she's in her 50s).


The rational thing therefore (assuming the selfish individual), is not to make sacrafices to build a rainy day fund, and rely on the collective when you yourself have an emergency... this leads to self-perpetuating poverty.
I think it's the logical thing for a selfish individual who's not thinking too far ahead, but yeah, definitely not the rational thing to do.

Unfortunately, all those hard working Isaan workers Danny99 talks about?... Most of them are getting dragged down by their families back home who always have their hands out for more cash. I get the idea of helping and supporting your parents but what about the stupidity of lazy parents dragging down their children's chances of building a prosperous future for themselves and their family?

Firstly Kevin - the proposals are not targetted at third-generation unemployed - they are aimed at every Benefit Claimant irrespective if 1st/2nd/3rd/10th generation.

Secondly - the unemployment benefit payable to a single person over 25 is around ┬г65 per week and under 25 it's ┬г52 - which works out at ┬г1.62 and ┬г1.30 an hour respectively (based on 40hr week). If that hourly rate is really more than one can get by working then I would suggest prosecution of those employers who are paying less than those sums as they are less that one third of the minimum wage - but of course it's simply a load of crap isn't it.

The truth of the matter is that a tiny minority of large families claiming multiple benefits may have a large income from that. However it is complete nonsense to say that they would earn less by working because you have absolutely no idea what they might be paid in work. The comparison is totally meaningless and relies on an assumption that they pay rate would be minimum wage. However it sounds good and appeals to the Daily Mail readers who are anti-everything except their own selfish interests

Thirdly, it's a bit rich that the very Party that, as a matter of political ideology, threw millions on to the scrap-heap in the Eighties are the ones now bemoaning the consequences. Industrial wastelands were created and nothing put in their place - the only help given was advice to "get on your bike".

Fourthly, it simply won't work - never has, never will. Every Govt for 50yrs has promised to cut the Welfare bill and none has achieved any reduction whatsoever.

Depressingly it's the same old Tory party - kick the poor and give extra to their rich pals (over half the Cabinet are themselves millionaires) - aided and abetted this time by those shameless political prostitutes known as the Liberal Democrats (for whom no principle is too great to set aside in order to get their snouts in the trough)

If we must have benefit crackdowns- how about a crackdown on UK Ex Pats around the world who convenienty forget to tell the UK Govt to stop paying Disability Benefits and other residence-based benefits into their UK Bank Accounts?

And let's not forget that Benefit fraud of whatever type pales into insignificance compared to the Tax evasion and avoidance carried out every day on a systematic basis by the richest individuals and corporations in the land.

Scottishguy,

I bow to your better knowledge as I am way out of my comfort zone on this.

I don't know at all what is going on in the UK. I only know it isn't home for me anymore. It's fantastic being with my Mam,family and my two boys,but by God,its taking me some adjusting.I don't like the place and it seems rules and regulations for anything.

Maybe, the came in slowly for people resident in the UK,but I feel its all alien to me.

So, no offence intended,as I say I am out of my depth and just listening to TV and newspapers(not always a good thing eh?)

[Beachlover]

I bow to your better knowledge as I am way out of my comfort zone on this.
First you want to duck while Scottish swings his axe like a maniac...

I bow to your better knowledge as I am way out of my comfort zone on this.
First you want to duck while Scottish swings his axe like a maniac...


Wait till I flash my bum at you.

:occasion9:

I don't think the lazy Malay boy needs any of your sympathy.
The Malay boy gets on quite well with his life, despite having little material needs and achieves the perfect balance between work and pleasure.
Just like the Issan boys, the Malay boys are a lovable people who deserve all the kisses and hugs for what they are . They tread the world lightly, causing little damage to their surrounding environment. They never have that compulsive need to keep boasting on how hard they work and how much they contribute to the GNP of the country. They instinctively know the damage done by unbridled greed to the psyche and the environment that is driven by the Calvinist-Confucian work ethic which in turn caused so much harm to Mother earth. To them, misdirected hard work is the culprit that ruins much of the environment. What is big deal about having to sell two hundred shirts and barely getting by in the process? They simply don't understand greed and the need to accumulate and compound wealth incessantly.
Is it any wonder that the seas around Malaysia are still rich in fish and the jungles are still extensive? Thanks to such lazy Malays who thought it horrendous to be too industrious as to scrape the earth bare and desertify the seas of its bounty.

[Beachlover]

First you want to duck while Scottish swings his axe like a maniac...
Wait till I flash my bum at you.

That's eye rape. :crybaby:

I asked a few pages back how this experiment had worked out but it seems it was not about a Issan boy making good with guidance but s slagging match.

So is this boy Kim on his way to his 1st million with your guidance?????

Or was it a total failure throwing cold water on your reasons not to have sympathy for poor Issan people ?

I did wonder if every youngster from Issan brought all those T shirts wouldnt the market be somewhat flooded driving down the selling price meanong very little money to be made.

Or as I assume he still lives off you ?

I am not sure this post was really about a poor Issan but rather a post to tell us how wonderful you are supporting a boy and his family. Where the real truth is you are paying for sex just like a lot of other men in Thailand. Try giving up work and passing no money to this 'lover' and I suspect like every other Issan person they would be searching for a new ATM.


I suspect you ignored my original post because it it had nothing to do with your real agenda.

axact perhaps you might call it an exchange of gifts. One's loyalty, wealth and experience for the others youth, beauty and companionship. Love doesn't always happen, but that is not to say it will not happen or hasn't happened already...

[Alaan]

This part of the thread is already far enough off topic,so i wont reply to every point made, but these points need a reply.


Firstly Kevin - the proposals are not targetted at third-generation unemployed - they are aimed at every Benefit Claimant irrespective if 1st/2nd/3rd/10th generation.
Firstly scottish-guy they are aimed at preventing the NOW 1st and 2nd generation of scroungers from BECOMING 3rd/4th etc...generation scroungers.......


Secondly - the unemployment benefit payable to a single person over 25 is around ┬г65 per week and under 25 it's ┬г52 - which works out at ┬г1.62 and ┬г1.30 an hour respectively (based on 40hr week). If that hourly rate is really more than one can get by working then I would suggest prosecution of those employers who are paying less than those sums as they are less that one third of the minimum wage - but of course it's simply a load of crap isn't it.

The truth of the matter is that a tiny minority of large families claiming multiple benefits may have a large income from that. However it is complete nonsense to say that they would earn less by working because you have absolutely no idea what they might be paid in work. The comparison is totally meaningless and relies on an assumption that they pay rate would be minimum wage. However it sounds good

Secondly lets just call your calculations and claims niave, most/many scroungers on unemployment benefit are normally on a SCREED of other state benefits such as housing benefits, child support, this support, that support etc etc etc which ADDED TOGETHER make them 'better off' being unemployed than employed...it isn't just "a tiny minority". The "tiny minority" would be those who dont have a basis for claiming multiple benefits, they go hand in hand with being unemployed for gods sake.


However it is complete nonsense to say that they would earn less by working
Now this is a load of crap, just try asking many long term unemployed just WHY they dont work and they will TELL you themselves it is because they are better off not working or that they would not be better off in nett terms by working.


Fourthly, it simply won't work - never has, never will. Every Govt for 50yrs has promised to cut the Welfare bill and none has achieved any reduction whatsoever
There has NEVER really been any real impetus over the last umpteen years to MAKE it work thats why..... because a) Labour would upset a vast number of their potential voters as well as the Unions if they had ever forced any 'back to work' schemes, and so when in government have never really had any real desire to see it through....and b) over the last few years Britian has been a rich, well off, financially vibrant society and its easy just to let things go on when it "seems" there is enough money to cover it. BUT it has all changed since the World financial crises hasn't it? There now is NO money to hand out to lazy scroungers, so there IS a reason for it to work because it HAS to.

My mother is a life long labour supporter but always felt it was an area Labour were just far too lenient. Why should she,an eighty year old widow, have to pay a second tax on her pension built up from years of hard work and already paying huge taxes/NIC etc.. only to have the money taken from HER pension to be handed out to some fucking claims-savvy, lazy, wasters. My mother lives in an area where most homes are owned, and she is surrounded by scores of young people who NEVER work, and who reside is nice homes paid for by people like my mother as part of their unemployment package of state hand-outs as mentioned above. There IS work for them...they simply CHOOSE not to and there are no realistic, workable measures in place to MAKE them, simple as that!

The only fear i have with this scheme however, is that the genuine unemployed, e.g. those who DO want to work, but are not given the opportunity, are fished-up in the net and penalised because of years of generations of scroungers who are so used to scrounging they now feel it is their right not to HAVE to work, or their right to refuse to work. I certainly dont agree with all the proposals of the coalition gov, but if there is any other way of plugging the benefits drain i'd be keen to hear about it.

[Beachlover]

Try giving up work and passing no money to this 'lover'...
I think many or most relationships, gay or straight would break up or at least be under strain if one partner did this without mutual agreement and resulted in unnviable finances.


I suspect you ignored my original post because it it had nothing to do with your real agenda.
You didn't really ask a specific question in your original post...