Hard up English sell part of historic Bangkok

The hard up English, are selling off the once charming gardens that formed part of the British embassy. The sold land will be used to build yet another unnecessary shopping mall. The reason the English give for destroying part of historical Bangkok and the ever diminishing green spaces is that they need the money to pay for the upkeep of their embassies around the world?

[wowpow]

Hardly historic - the British Consulate moved to new buildings on this site in the late 1920s. It became the British Embassy in 1947. During the war the Japanese boarded up the statue of Queen Victoria but a peephole was made so that she could see out. The gardens have not been used for any public events for some years due to security and so they are to be sold off. Seems pretty reasonable to me. The US Ambassador has a house just up the road. It is a small house in vast gardens - not very well tended but with a moat around the perimeter. Perhaps they would like to present this to the Thai Government for a park in this area of prime Bangkok real estate?

England is just one country that makes up Britain. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the others.

The British Embassy in Bangkok History (http://www.britishembassy.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1065714415142)

I am aware that "Britain" is a term used to cover England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? That's why I did not use it. What's your point?

Because the "English" don't use the land should not mean it should be sold off by the English to the Chinese for profit to be used to build a shopping mall? This cashing in on a property boom is both very greedy and environmentally backward. We are not talking about a "local city council" here but a government void of petty cash.

If they are so hard up that they cant afford to keep up their embassies perhaps they should sell that ugliest of all, Buckingham palace. Their queen has decided to stay at Windsor castle in any-case. It would make a very good mall. They could tart it up a bit to look more continental and the garden could be used as a car park, as the wall is so high at the moment the public will hardly miss her collection of Camellias.

The American compound would make an excellent public park, lets hope in the unlikely event the Americans need to stream-line operations for lack of maintenance cash, that in a city with one of the lowest ratio of open green spaces to population density in the world, that they make this sensible and generous offer to the people of Bangkok their hosts.

[wowpow]

Hard up English sell part of historic Bangkok - quote Cedric

Should read British sell part of historic Bangkok.

My points are that The British are not hard up but prefer to send high funds to the poorest countries on earth to prevent massive starvation ( and have involved the rest of the EU in committing to do the same. Sadly efforts to involve the US have failed) in preference to providing parks for the good citizens of Bangkok. Britain has the 5th largest economy only recently surpassed by China it was 4th. Maybe you can approach the Thai-Chinese Mandarins to provide parks?

The other point is that the Embassy garden is not historic.

Buckingham Palace is historic, though the frontage was remodelled in 1913. The Queen spends most of the week there and weekends at Windsor.

"George III bought Buckingham House in 1761 for his wife Queen Charlotte to use as a comfortable family home close to St James's Palace, where many court functions were held. Buckingham House became known as the Queen's House, and 14 of George III's 15 children were born there. In 1762 work began on remodelling the house to the King's requirements, to designs by Sir William Chambers, at a cost of ┬г73,000.

George IV, on his accession in 1820, decided to reconstruct the house into a pied-├а-terre, using it for the same purpose as his father George III. As work progressed, and as late as the end of 1826, the King had a change of heart. With the assistance of his architect, John Nash, he set about transforming the house into a palace. Parliament agreed to a budget of ┬г150,000, but the King pressed for ┬г450,000 as a more realistic figure. Nash retained the main block but doubled its size by adding a new suite of rooms on the garden side facing west. Faced with mellow Bath stone, the external style reflected the French neo-classical influence favoured by George IV.

The remodelled rooms are the State and semi-State Rooms, which remain virtually unchanged since Nash's time." more on www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page568.asp (http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page568.asp)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v27/wowpow/Artres_D2_2b_2.jpg
The former frontage to Buckingham Palace

Isn't this all fun?

England is just one country that makes up Britain. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are the others.


To be totally accurate (and anal to boot), Britain is infact made up of England, Scotland and Wales. Northern Ireland joins these other three countries as part of the United Kingdom not Great Britain.

TeePee:

While the State of California is not a nation state, it has an economy that outdistances that of England. Within a few years, the economy of Los Angeles County alone will rival that of England.

While we make fun of "breeders" - it is the failure of Western Europeans to successfully breed that makes their non-immigrants populations not fit, in Darwinian terms.

As for England's global generosity, a drop in the bucket.

[cottmann]

TeePee:

While the State of California is not a nation state, it has an economy that outdistances that of England. Within a few years, the economy of Los Angeles County alone will rival that of England.

While we make fun of "breeders" - it is the failure of Western Europeans to successfully breed that makes their non-immigrants populations not fit, in Darwinian terms.

As for England's global generosity, a drop in the bucket.

The first part is true but irrelevant - in a couple of years the US economy will be eclipsed by the Chinese, so such comparisons are essentially meaningless.

The second sentence forgets that the US's economic performance is paid for by the Chinese, Japanese and others - the US lives on borrowed money and time. The IMF and the Brookings Institute actually suggest that the combined EU economy is probably slightly larger than that of the USA with a 2005 GDP of 12,865,602 million vs. 11,734,300 million (USD figures) (using nominal US Dollar GDP). And in terms of purchasing power parity, the EU may actually be larger than the USA.

Economic growth isn't everything. In terms of the best cities in the world in which to live, using New York as the base, Honolulu is the top ranked US city - at 27th - while San Francisco is 28th. The top three are Zurich, Geneva and Vancouver. The worst - American-occupied Baghdad - http://www.mercerhr.com/pressrelease/de ... nt/1173105 (http://www.mercerhr.com/pressrelease/details.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1173105)
Moreover, in terms of Quality of Life, the Economist in 2005 ranked the US 13th, behind Australia, Singapore and 10 European countries (not in that order). see http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

As for global generosity, the world saw how generous the USA was on the occasion of the Asian tsunami - until it was shamed into giving more! On December 31, 2004, the amount the United States had pledged was eclipsed by the $96 million promised by Britain, a country with one-fifth the population, and by the $75 million vowed by Sweden, which amounted to $8.40 for each of its 9 million people. Denmark's pledge of $15.6 million amounted to roughly $2.90 per capita. And the American pledge was 12 cents per capita!

And the rich USA cannot afford to pay for relocating its forces from Okinawa to Guam, so the Japanese are paying 59 per cent of the costs.

All of which has nothing to do, of course, with the fact that the British wish to sell off part of their Embassy Gardens.

The US Ambassador has a house just up the road. It is a small house in vast gardens - not very well tended but with a moat around the perimeter. Perhaps they would like to present this to the Thai Government for a park in this area of prime Bangkok real estate?

Impossible, unfortunately, as that land is not owned by the US government. It is leased for a very nominal amount from the Crown.

Which benighted country has the honour of counting you amongst its citizenry, Cedric? I was under the impression your school was Slough Comprehensive, so believed you to be English yourself

Impossible, unfortunately, as that land is not owned by the US government. It is leased for a very nominal amount from the Crown.Is there any pie in which queens don't have a finger?

please pass the aspirin

Homintern I have three passports one from each parent and one from being long enough in any single country to be counted as a citizen of that country.

Bangkok is a mess of greedy development and bad planning, rather ugly to see the English join the feeding frenzy. I sometimes think Bangkok has grown up and around its citizens without any form of consultation or regard for their needs. It is truly horrible to witness. Once the most magnificent city in all of Asia reduced to a property developers shit hole.

Whilst back home, on that soggy bit of rotten bog the tiny islet called england will wage war with its self if even the tiniest bit of that putrid soil is further blemished.

[wowpow]

Percentages of the World GDP, World Bank 2004
United States 29%
Japan 11.5%
Germany 6.7%
United Kingdom 5.3%
France 5%
Italy 4.2%
China 4.1%
Spain 2.5%
Canada 2.4%
India 1.7%
Korea, South 1.7%
Mexico 1.7%
Australia 1.6%
Brazil 1.5%
Russia 1.4%
Netherlands 1.4%
Switzerland 0.9%
Belgium 0.9%
Sweden 0.9%
www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp)

There is no doubting the massive wealth of the USA. It will be many, many years before China gets anywhere near.

According to the World Handbook's www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/) latest figures

Britain (population 60 million) Overseas Development Aid was US$7.9 billion (2004)
USA (population 340 million) .. .. .. .. US$6.9 .. (1997) I wonder why no recent figures are published?

If the American Ambassador is getting the huge site of his residence for a peppercorn rent, the least he could do is to keep the garden nicely.

[wowpow]

Percentages of the World GDP, World Bank 2004
United States 29%
Japan 11.5%
Germany 6.7%
United Kingdom 5.3%
France 5%
Italy 4.2%
China 4.1%
Spain 2.5%
Canada 2.4%
India 1.7%
Korea, South 1.7%
Mexico 1.7%
Australia 1.6%
Brazil 1.5%
Russia 1.4%
Netherlands 1.4%
Switzerland 0.9%
Belgium 0.9%
Sweden 0.9%
www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/eco_gdp)

There is no doubting the massive wealth of the USA. It will be many, many years before China gets anywhere near.

According to the World Handbook's www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/) latest figures

Britain (population 60 million) Overseas Development Aid was US$7.9 billion (2004)
USA (population 340 million) .. .. .. .. US$6.9 .. (1997) I wonder why no recent figures are published?

If the American Ambassador is getting the huge site of his residence for a peppercorn rent, the least he could do is to keep the garden nicely.

I sometimes think Bangkok has grown up and around its citizens without any form of consultation or regard for their needsYou've noticed? Why are you surprised? Or does that come from being young?

Do you think places like Soi Twilight and Sunee Plaza would exist if there were such a thing as municipal planning? Come on, dear, do you want Bangkok -- or do you want London by the Chaopraya?

[RonanTheBarbarian]

Ignore Homintern Cedric, he just likes winding people up if he thinks he will get a reaction.

I am not sure if the focus on total GNP is that useful in this thread. After all, China has four times the population of the United States, so it is inevitably going to pass out the U.S when its per capita GNP hit a rate of a quarter of the U.S.

What exactly all that will signify, apart from newspaper headlines, when it happens I am not sure.

They love capitalism, but not elections
Boris Johnson

It was towards the end of my trip to China that the tall, beautiful communist-party girl turned and asked the killer question. тАШSo, Mr Boris Johnson,тАЩ she said, тАШhave you changed your mind about anything?тАЩ And I was forced to reply that, yes, I had. Darned right I had.

I had completely changed my mind about the chances of democracy in China. Before flying to Beijing I had naively presumed that the place was not just exhibiting hysterical economic growth, but was about to enter a ferment of political change. I had assumed that Tony Blair was right when, in 2005, he went there and announced that the 1.3 billion Chinese were on an тАШunstoppable marchтАЩ towards multi-party politics. I now know that he was talking twaddle, and, what is more, that his Foreign Office advisers knew it.

Like most reporters of my generation I spent a certain amount of the 1980s in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and we all remember that sense of suppressed mutiny, how easy it was to find people willing to prophesy over late-night vodka or slivovitz that one day the lid would blow off the cooker and Western-style democracy would be ushered in. Well, itтАЩs not that way in China today.

I came away with an impression of a gloriously venal capitalist explosion being controlled by an unrepentant Bolshevik system, and тАФ this is the key thing тАФ with the patriotic support of almost all the intelligentsia. One night I had dinner with a charming group of young Chinese professionals, all of whom had studied in England, and who you might therefore expect to have drunk deep of our liberal political potion. I began by pointing out that I was that exotic British phenomenon, a тАШshadowтАЩ minister. Of course, I said patronisingly, you donтАЩt have an opposition, do you? тАШNo,тАЩ they smiled. тАШWell,тАЩ I said, тАШwouldnтАЩt it be a good thing?тАЩ I waved my arms at the panorama of Shanghai behind us, where illuminated pleasure boats chugged along the river, and the fangs of 300 skyscrapers probed the night, soon to be joined by 300 more.

тАШWhat if you get fed up with the people running this show? WouldnтАЩt you like to kick them out? Kick the bastards out, eh?тАЩ I stabbed my chopsticks at a passing squid.

тАШActually, no,тАЩ said Oswald, a nice guy with specs who had studied at Keble. He didnтАЩt think the British system would work in China at all. тАШI think a one-party state is good for China right now,тАЩ he said, and the squid, more elusive in death than in life, shot from my fumbling sticks and lay on the tablecloth in a metaphor of Western incomprehension.

тАШBut what about Chairman Mao?тАЩ I asked. I had been stunned, in Beijing, to find his warty visage still looming over the entrance to the Forbidden City, and to see the crowds of reverential citizens still visiting the mausoleum of a man who, in his 27-year reign, was responsible for the deaths of 70 million people and who therefore, in the evil tyrant stakes, knocks Hitler and Stalin into a cocked hat. Surely it was time to break with the legacy of Mao? This time it was a spiky-haired young lawyer called Harry who dealt gently with my misconceptions.

тАШDifferent times produce different heroes,тАЩ he said. тАШWe cannot put ourselves in the position that Mao was in.тАЩ тАШBut what if you want to get involved in politics,тАЩ I asked. тАШWhat do you do?тАЩ тАШYou must join the communist party, and work for the government,тАЩ said Lucy, a girl on my left. тАШIt is a great honour to join the communist party. You must be a very bright student.тАЩ

Before you accuse me of talking to the wrong people, let me assure you that I found the same story everywhere: not so much a defence of Chinese communism, or totalitarianism, but a patient refusal to accept my glib assumptions of the superiority of Western pluralism; because the more I harped on, the more resolute my interlocutors became in their defence not so much of the system but of China itself.

In Shanghai we went to an enormous and lavishly equipped college of journalism, and after we had all swapped business cards (which must be exchanged sacramentally, with both hands and a small kung-fu bow) there was a slide-show of all the distinguished foreigners who had been there, ranging from Ronald Reagan to Margaret Hodge, and then it was my cue to make a small speech of thanks. I explained again that I was an opposition politician, and that I believed it was important to keep up my journalism as a way of getting my message across. This dual role I chose to describe by what I thought was a happy Mao-style aphorism. тАШYou could say that I combine the functions of dog and lamp-post!тАЩ

As I spoke I could hear the British Council man on my left groan and whisper тАШno, noтАЩ, and around the table, on the faces of the tutors of Chinese journalism, there was frank mystification. Later on that evening, when I was trying to explain it to the communist-party girl, it was some time before she grasped what in Western liberal democracies constitutes the proper relationship between the journalist (dog) and the politician (lamp-post), and if you want to understand why my sally fell so thunkingly flat, there is a very simple reason.

In todayтАЩs China the dogs are still so respectful of the lamp-posts that the editor of one big paper recently admitted that he gave bonuses to reporters whose work was praised by the Ministry of Information. In many cities the journalists turn up at press conferences and are given little cash-stuffed envelopes to thank them for being there. When I asked the lecturers in journalism to name their professional heroes, they looked utterly bemused, eventually naming Edgar Snow, the American stooge and hagiographer of Mao. At the end of our session at the journalism college a pale, intense academic came up privately and said of course I was right to say that journalism should root out corruption, тАШbut we must also care about stability,тАЩ he said, and there is the nub.

It is a clich├й worth repeating that the Chinese have a colossal, 4,000-year-old respect for authority, and a deep unwillingness to be seen to do anything that is extrovert, embarrassing, satirical, flatulent, foolish, irreverent тАФ in fact, they have been wholly bypassed by the European Enlightenment. They have a different concept of the relation between the individual and society, and a distrust of any kind of seditious argument, let alone satire. ItтАЩs not so much that they would be shocked by Voltaire. They would be shocked by Aristophanes. With every group of students I tried, in a flat-footed way, to raise issues of academic and intellectual freedom, in particular the notorious restrictions on the internet.

WasnтАЩt it absurd that the state was blocking access to Wikipedia, the online encyclopaedia, particularly since it seemed to have been written by Maoists anyway? And every time the students responded that it wasnтАЩt such a problem, that there were ways round it, I was struck by their apathy, their acquiescence, their un-Tiananmen spirit, their willingness to accept the arguments for тАШstabilityтАЩ and the public good: to the point where I suddenly felt it was pointless and boorish of me to keep levelling these implicit criticisms of my hosts.

The Chinese are gluttons for gilts and bonds and calls and puts and leveraged buyouts; but they arenтАЩt very keen on the idea of elections, and instead of nipples on their billboards they would much rather have the luscious Technicolor full-frontal advertising for machine tools that greets the passenger arriving at Shanghai station. They want to do it the authoritarian way, the Chinese way, partly because the fear of disorder is so strong, and partly, frankly, because the rest of the world does not yet provide an overwhelming advertisement for democracy.

If the Chinese want to prove to themselves that elections lead to chaos and kleptocracy, they need only look at Russia. If they want to reassure themselves that Blair and the neocons are wrong, and that democracy is not one of those sow-anywhere plants, they only have to look at the disaster of Iraq. In fact, the more people like me insist on rabbiting on about democracy, the more the Chinese must inwardly resolve to vindicate their own specialness and their own solution, complete with prison camps, mass capital punishment, and getting fired if you have more than one baby; not least since the present Chinese formula seems to be such a roaring success.

They have averaged growth of 9 per cent over the last 25 years; they are creating the fastest bullet train in the world as well as 30 nuclear reactors, and hundreds of millions of peasants are still moving to the cities to stand in plimsolls and suits on girders hundreds of feet up in the cause of the most enormous boom in construction and industrialisation the world has ever seen. Even in my own area of special interest, higher education, the Chinese story is astonishing: there are now 1,800 state universities (there are about 90 in the UK) as well as 1,300 technical colleges, and the Chinese donтАЩt have any of the British addiction to state funding.

This may be technically a communist country, but in some universities 50 per cent of total funds are fees paid by the students, their families and even their neighbours (whereas top-up fees will contribute about 2 per cent of CambridgeтАЩs budget). Oh, and just to freeze your marrow further, the Chinese turn out millions of highly qualified scientists and mathematicians, at a time when 30 per cent of British university physics departments have closed in the last eight years. You cannot hope to pass the gaokao, the fearsome Chinese university entrance exam which is sat by eight million 18-year-olds a year (and failed by three million of them), unless you have the equivalent of a B or better at maths A-level.

The longer you spend in the new China, watching the oxyacetylene lamps on the building sites at 3 a.m., the clearer it is that Francis Fukuyama was wrong when, in 1989, he pronounced that the fall of Soviet communism meant the end of history. Systematically, methodically, and with the connivance of their entire political establishment and their growing bourgeoisie, the Chinese are making a mockery of the claim that free-market capitalism and democracy must go hand-in-hand. Which is why, finally, I do not altogether go along with those who have suggested that the next century will belong to China, or that China will somehow rule the planet.

It is true that the new China is a wonderful place, and certainly a lot better than the old communist China, and with the growing international renown of their economic performance the Chinese are gaining in confidence and spiritual hope. It is also true that Chinese competition is a huge challenge for us in Western Europe, and certainly a useful hobgoblin for those of us who think that Gordon BrownтАЩs Labour party is eroding our competitive edge.

But with Chinese per capita GDP still only $1,000 per year, and with all the corruption and inefficiency still generated by a one-party state, I am not yet convinced that we need to force all our children to learn Mandarin. If China is really to rule the world, she will need two things that America now has in superabundance: hard power and soft power.

As a military power, China is still relatively insignificant (her defence spending is smaller than that of the UK); and as for soft power тАФ cultural projection abroad тАФ what can China boast, apart from the occasional arrival in London of the state ballet or the Beijing PeopleтАЩs Circus? It is a tragic fact that every year thousands of Chinese undergo surgery to make their features more Western. To see how remote is the day of Chinese cultural dominance, ask yourselves how many Westerners would have surgery to make themselves look more Chinese.

Soft power тАФ cultural influence тАФ is ultimately impossible without an appealing international brand, and for the foreseeable future ChinaтАЩs international brand will be vitiated by her domestic political arrangements. China will never rule the world as long as the Forbidden City is adorned with the face of the biggest mass murderer in history. In the words of John Lennon, тАШIf you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao/ You ainтАЩt gonna make it with anyone anyhow.тАЩ

Boris JohnsonтАЩs report on ChinaтАЩs universities will be screened on BBC2тАЩs Newsnight on 9 May.

Ignore Homintern Cedric, he just likes winding people up if he thinks he will get a reaction.You're quite wrong there. I enjoy winding people up, full stop. Or as Jane Austen says, "Follies and ... inconsistencies ..." etc. - you can read it below. It's not there for decoration

[cottmann]

Percentages of the World GDP, World Bank 2004xxxxx

There is no doubting the massive wealth of the USA. It will be many, many years before China gets anywhere near.

According to the World Handbook's www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/) latest figures

Britain (population 60 million) Overseas Development Aid was US$7.9 billion (2004)
USA (population 340 million) .. .. .. .. US$6.9 .. (1997) I wonder why no recent figures are published?
xxxx

Ariel wrote about the Californian economy being among the world's biggest if the state were an independent nation. Comparing the consolidated USA with consolidated Europe, in the EU, the picture is somewhat different. Wikipedia cites 2005 figures for GDP from the IMF, the World Bank and the CIA. Of the three sources, only the US one - the CIA - puts the US GDP as higher than that of the EU. All put the GDP of China as significantly higher than do the Nationmaster figures -
IMF (2005): United States 12,277,583 and People's Republic of China 9,412,361
World Bank (2004): United States 11,651,110 People's Republic of China 7,642,283
CIA (2006): United States 12,410,000 People's Republic of China 8,182,000

For comparison, the figures for the EU are IMF 12,427,413, World Bank 12,020,939 and CIA 12,180,000.

The US is already only the world's second biggest economy!

Much of the US GDP is derived from its military expenditure so if the US military expenditure is removed, the US GDP falls by $518.1 billion (CIA 2005 estimate) compared with only $81.480 bn for the PRC.

Hominterns proviso "follies & Nonsense, whims and inconsistencies...." describes themselves very well, if it were not for this unashamed honesty I would have put them on ignore a long time ago.

It makes me smile however to see them trying to save face. If the english say they are hard up who are we to disagree. But for them and other guests in Thailand to add to the destruction of Bangkok is worthy of condemnation of the highest order, what ever there cash flow problems might be. No one really gives a toss if the english are hard up or not, they have been penny pinching ever since the days of food rationing after Mr H blitzed their precious lump of slime and the Americans came to their rescue.
Habitual creatures that they are it has become something of a national hobby seeing how far a penny can stretch. It seems not very far without excruciating discomfort.

Adding to the dependancy of the poorest in the world is hardly generous or worthy of gloat, it is as they so well put it, hard up, given the true price. Given the very nature of the beast it is no wonder that it is near impossible to get them thinking "out of the box" when it comes to interests beyond their own disputable border.

[wowpow]

Ah now the resort to vile invective when no rational arguement exists.

"Adding to the dependancy of the poorest in the world is hardly generous or worthy of gloat, it is as they so well put it, hard up and has a price. Given the very nature of the beast it is no wonder that it is near impossible to get them thinking "out of the box" when it comes to interests beyond their own disputable border." quote Cedric

This rant reads like 'follies and nonsense'. Does it mean something?

... is that Cedric is a self-confessed "traveller under a passport of convenience" (like a Panamanian-registered ship). To which country (or perhaps in his case cuntry) does he belong? Whichever of his three passports he happens to have on him at the time? It means that any place (even one of the cuntries whose passport he carries) is "nothing to do with me". It's the new NIMBYism I guess of the truly international person (I don't dare say "man" - I'm sure that would be terribly incorrect)

Oh, and before I'm accused of passport envy, I too have multiple passports

Teepee pardon me for upsetting your sensibilities, but I thought pretty much tame for this site? You will notice "vile invective" are how "the rational argument is being described", I have no regrets.
I also don't feel the need to explain with yet more "vile invective" the english concept of a united kingdom, it can be assumed.

You old romantic Homintern, like a "Panamanian ship" my back-yard is indeed larger than most and I love ships the more ships the better, who ever invented the jet engine should be shot. Can I assume you are more or less American using words like nimbyism?

[cottmann]

... my back-yard is indeed larger than most ...

Can I play in your backyard?

To which country (or perhaps in his case cuntry) does he belong? Whichever of his three passports he happens to have on him at the time?

I suspect that this avowed Anglophobe's passport is either Belgian or French or both. Perhaps he is in a state of terminal guilt after the condition that lot left the Congo in. Perhaps he should go live there rather than domicile himself in former British Colony as he does. To blame the English for the Amazing state of Bangkok or Thailand is bizarre in the extreme. Even we Scots wouldn't do that.

Boygeenjus you let yourself down badly. Do you really believe London is well planned???? Paris perhaps New-York most definitely but London? It can take three hours drive from Kensington to the West-end a distance of about four kilometres.
The kind of planning I am talking about for the citizens of Bangkok are simply put, some green lungs and less useless construction that they have no part of, that just serves to blot the landscape of all the gems they themselves built and hold dear.

I agree it is a bit late in the day to wake up to what has happened to Bangkok but its never too late to halt the destruction.

[cottmann]

... I am not yet convinced that we need to force all our children to learn Mandarin...

Reminds me of a saying from my youth: "The optimists will teach their children Russian, and the pessimists will teach their children Chinese."

It can take three hours drive from Kensington to the West-end a distance of about four kilometres.

Stuff and non-sense.

It certainly could take three hours to get to the West-end from Kensington,not necessarily the norm but it could. Three hours of rush hour traffic especially if there was something on at Olympia or just any old damned day. I dont know what its like these days,since they have some sort of city toll but a couple of years ago blah blah. Any-way my point is that London is horribly planned, its one big jam. I find even Barcelona or Rome easier to drive through,there is a pattern though its not exactly the grid system.

Northstar I like you even more that I learn you are Scottish I have some much admired relatives who are the same. None of my passports are Belgian. I am not an anglophobe just not much of an anglophile either. Its not about me but about Thailand any-way. It might sound strange to some but us children dont consider ourselves belonging to any country in particular just guests of the countries we find ourselves in, I dont even hold a passport of the country where I was born, it would be pretty useless any-way.

I suspect that this avowed Anglophobe's passport is either Belgian or French or bothWhatever it is, he claims to have read Evelyn Waugh at school, where dusty bound volumes of the Literary Review (I think it was) adorned the Library shelves

The plot sickens! Frog? If I am part frog its none of my doing.

... it's the thick plottens?

I drove round London a lot in the '70s and during the last 10 years. In the '70s I often transitted Kensington to get to the LSE from Wimbledon, regularly driving past the dreadful Quentin Crisp on his morning perambulation round "World's End". Happily he was not as naked as his autobiography suggested but could be spotted from a great distance due to his lack of style and flamboyant costume.

The trick of driving round London is in knowing where the fast trunk roads are and hitting into the centre at the appropriate points. Getting bogged down at Olympia would only ever happen during a Plumber's Exhibition.

Ken's congestion charge has done nothing other than persuade me onto my bike when the weather permits, like today. There has been little planning of London as with most great cities, unless you count the Nash Terraces. Whether planned or not, London has more lungs than any city of similar size and many smaller. This was not planned but an accident of the history of the social structure that caused the "commons" to be preserved. Well done the English for that one. Why the British should give a hoot about who builds on land theForeign Office have presumably purchased* in what turned into Bangkok's CBD is a mystery to me.

*if this is not the case, how the hell can they be selling it?

Plumbers convention horse of the year, crufts, cat shows? We never had to search for appropriate entry points into the centre of London, we lived in Kensington so had no choice. Of course it also depends on the time of day, but if you are like me and not very english you won't plan your visit to the West End three weeks in advance and have amongst others Olympia timetables in your glove compartment and six entry points mapped out and a runner to cheque the all clear.
If you are coming of the infamous ring road that has never functioned properly you are in a jam before you even find your entry point, unless you choose Potters Bar in which case plan on a days travel.
From my own personal experience of driving in many large cities in the world consider London the worst planned and most irrational. And second is Hong-kong which the english also planned. But this is not about central planning this is about the quality of life future generations should rightly expect to enjoy in their city.

May I ask how you separate the "British" Foreign office from the "British" are they an independent little state of brainless tosspots, or one and the same? And why should they not give a hoot about what Bangkok's CBD turns into as land owning guests in that country,other than being brainless tosspots. Not in my back yard and all that? I have to say I gave a hoot about London's green spots when I lived there.

The reputation of the mercenary nature of the english is not without reason,having simply had no access to the readies for such a long time. It is something of an enduring national trait. Its no wonder their labour prime minister leapt into the arms of Americas republican Mr Bush.

It doesn't take much to raise a laugh in me these days, so the notion that a city that has been continuously inhabited for 2000 years is one where much large-scale planning is even possible was particularly risible. Given however that its author's main "intellectual" recreation is watching "reality TV" perhaps I should have expected the laughs. Is it too much to suggest that Young Master Cedric's interests have inspired Hedda to return to this Board? http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... php?t=7688 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7688)

Homintern and Northstar seem to have an obsession with town planning this is not the issue. However London's medieval past burnt down in what must have been the party of the century. Most European cities still have wondrous medieval city centres that are still better planned than modern London.

Homintern and Northstar seem to have an obsession with town planningI've said nothing about any interest in town-planning. I'm here for the laughs, and you're certainly giving me plenty of opportunities. We may well find Young Master Cedric featuring in Hedda's Blog one day soon - or so I've been told - http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... g.php?w=21 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/weblog.php?w=21)

Dont do blogs, not that I am not interested in the minutiae of posters lives but at the same time just not that bored. Must be particularly good for you to have to advertise?

Dont do blogs, not that I am not interested in the minutiae of posters lives but at the same time just not that bored. Must be particularly good for you to have to advertise?I'm sure Hedda doesn't need your presence in order for the rest of us to have a good laugh at your expense

Laugh all you want, its good for you,I should think for you in particular. I believe elephantspike wrote off the idea of asking for a bloggers fee as the blogs were in the main ignored. As Smiles pointed out "Hedda" had a grand total of one comment to its posting.
Still laughing on your own is better than nothing. :cheers:

However London's medieval past burnt down in what must have been the party of the century.

I'm not sure that I can share Homintern's amusement at someone who finds the Blitz and activities of Adolf Hitler amusing.

As to getting round London by car, I was not referrinng to the North and South circulars, you dolt, but rather the Embankment, Earls Court Road, Westway and Marylebone Highstreet, Kingsway. If you can't find the places where traffic keeps moving don't call in the Luftwaffe to burn down the city.

I have driven round Hong Kong as much as London and I can only say that my experience differs from yours markedly. And no, the British Foreign office has no, absolutely no responsibility for the "development" of any part of Thailand. You are obviously blinded by a hatred of the English even greater than that of my younger brother. Perhaps you should avail yourself of the fine medical services available in the former British Colony in which you live. How strange that you fail to recognise how many of the blessings you currently enjoy came about because of the British custodianship. Have a nice May 555.

As Smiles pointed out "Hedda" had a grand total of one comment to its postingAh, what it is to be young (dumb and full of cum). You are mistaking Smiles' comments about the Blog known as Hedda's Blog but in fact hijacked by her research assistant Jane Marple some months ago, and hosted by Blogspot, with Hedda's Blog as written by the one, genuine, true and only Hedda hosted by Sawatdee Gay Thailand. Hedda tells me that there will shortly be a report of an encounter between the two of you in the gardens of the British Embassy in Bangkok reported on Hedda's True Blog

Hedda tells me that there will shortly be a report of an encounter between the two of you in the gardens of the British Embassy in Bangkok reported on Hedda's True Blog

No wonder he's anxious that the hallowed ground isn't redeveloped into a multistorey Prada outlet. Maybe he can tell us if Hedda is a true hydra with many actual physical heads or merely the virtual variety as I suspect.

[wowpow]

"Central wins bid for most valuable land
PITSINEE JITPLEECHEEP & KRISSANA PARNSOONTHORN

Central Retail Corporation (CRC), the country's largest retail chain, has won the bid for the British Embassy land, which has been touted as the most valuable plot in Thailand. An industry source said CRC beat Land & Houses Plc in the final round of bidding with an offer of more than 900,000 baht per square wah, or three billion baht, for the prime nine-rai plot on the corner of Wireless and Phloen Chit roads, while the latter proposed 880,000 baht.

In the first round, LH offered more than CRC at 830,000 baht per square wah with a proposal to build accommodation for embassy staff and compensate for its relocation over the next two years. Executives at CRC declined to disclose details, saying the embassy would officially announce the outcome. However, an informed source at the Central Group of Companies said there were plans to turn the plot into a first-class commercial project, with a shopping area, serviced apartments or hotel and an entertainment anchor. ''With the tough retail competition, Central Chidlom needs to expand and if it can do this, it will be able to satisfy growing consumer requirements. Central Chidlom and the new development will become a one-stop shopping destination in Phloen Chit,'' he said. At present, Central Chidlom has limited space to stage marketing events and a long list of retail tenants who want to open outlets there. entral Chidlom leases a one-rai plot from the Kamol Sukosol Group for parking space, which would be in jeopardy if the lease cannot be renewed......"

Bangkok Post 27th April

To blame the English for the Amazing state of Bangkok or Thailand is bizarre in the extreme.

But we CAN blame the British for letting their FILTH run amuck in pre-1997 Hongkers, can't we?

Whatever it is, he claims to have read Evelyn Waugh at school, where dusty bound volumes of the Literary Review (I think it was) adorned the Library shelves

Now that's a Scoop, homi!

[wowpow]

The Bangkok Post - Tuesday 16th May 2006

British embassy completes sale of nine-rai plot to Central
The British government yesterday completed the sale of part of its Bangkok embassy compound on Phloen Chit Road to the Central Group, the country's largest retail operator.

The price of the prized nine-rai plot to Central affiliate Tiang Chirathivat Real Estate Co was not disclosed but industry experts estimated it at three billion baht.

Central edged Land & Houses Plc, the country's largest residential developer, in the contest to acquire the site. The company wants to turn the plot into a shopping area, serviced apartments or a hotel and entertainment anchor to complement its nearby Central Chidlom store.

Intense competition in the retail business in Bangkok's central business district has driven Central to seek ways to build on its existing businesses, which are now constrained by limited space, according to industry analysts.

Central executives declined to comment on the deal, but the British Embassy said yesterday it was the largest-ever property sale by the Foreign Office. The historic residence, the embassy and the "green character" of the compound would be preserved, it said.

About 11 million (770 million baht) of the proceeds will fund redevelopment of the remainder of the compound, including new staff accommodation, recreational facilities, remodelling of the embassy offices and security work.

The embassy said that the 32.3-rai compound, purchased in 1922, was larger than needed. It said the land sold was the most polluted and noisiest part of the compound, next to the six-lane Phloen Chit Road and the BTS skytrain.

The War Memorial and statue of Queen Victoria would be moved to appropriate sites near the residence, officials said.

================================================== ==================================================

The Nation Tuesday 16th May 2006

Central buys 'priciest plot' from UK Embassy

The sale of part of the British embassy compound in Bangkok to the Central Group was completed yesterday in a historic deal reportedly worth about ฃ50 million - Bt3.5 billion.

Property market sources said the value of the deal, whose details were jealously guarded by both the seller and buyer, was around Bt950,000 per square wah for the 8.870 rai property put on sale by the Britain's Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) in one of Thailand's largest property sales ever.

The FCO declined to give a figure for the property sale, indicating only that it had completed the transaction with Tiang Chirathivat Real Estate, part of the Central Group, which owns a neighbouring flagship retail property.

The embassy compound is located in Bangkok's prime business district, at the intersection of Wireless and Ploenchit roads.

"This is the largest ever property sale by the Foreign Office. The historic residence, the embassy and the 'green character' of the compound will, however, be preserved," said a statement from the embassy.

The embassy originally occupied about 31 rai of land that had been purchased in 1922 from Phya Pakdi Noraset (Nai Lert). There had been talk of the sale of part of the property for over a decade, but it was not until late last year that bidding was opened on about one-third of the block.

"About ฃ11 million of the proceeds will fund redevelopment of the remainder of the compound, including new staff accommodation, recreational facilities, remodelling of the embassy offices and security works.

"The balance will pay for vital investment elsewhere on the FCO's worldwide estate," the embassy said.

There were several bidders interested in acquiring the property such as Charoen Sirivadhanabhakdi, of Chang Beer fame, Land & Houses Group, Hong Kong Land and Central Group. Richard Ellis was appointed as broker.

Land & Houses, Hong Kong Land and Central Group were short-listed for the final bidding. Land & Houses was reported to have made a bid of around Bt700,000 per square wah. Later it withdrew its bid altogether.

Central Group won the bid with its offer of about Bt950,000 per sq wah. Property sources said Central plans to use the plot to build a five-star hotel, a luxury retail complex and an office building.

The two main residences on the embassy compound have already been demolished to make way for the sale. The War Memorial Statue of Queen Victoria, in the middle of the compound, will be moved to an appropriate place within the compound.

================================================== ================================================== =========

"The historic residence, the embassy and the 'green character' of the compound will, however, be preserved," said a statement from the embassy." Hummmm?

That should keep the English floating for a couple of days. Lets hope they don't drop queen victoria when they move it, I am sure we will all be heartbroken should it fall.

Hard up English sell part of historic Bangkok - quote Cedric

Should read British sell part of historic Bangkok.

My points are that The British are not hard up but prefer to send high funds to the poorest countries on earth to prevent massive starvation ( and have involved the rest of the EU in committing to do the same. Sadly efforts to involve the US have failed)

That is because 80% of Americans including Dubbya have no idea that anywhere outside of the USA exisits.

are supposed to love it when you blame everything on the English, but really they can't be blamed for the Thai predeliction for air-conditioned shoppping centres and hotels ...but look at the mess the Dutch left in Indonesia ... Krakatoa, Merapi, ... need I say more?

:happy1:

BTW Cedric, were you at Pride Afloat off Lantau on Sunday (200 HK queens on a dozen junks out of the Queen's pier). The BF said he spoke to someone that sounded a bit like you.

Bangkok admires London town planning

Bangkok Governor Apirak Kosayodhin on Tuesday met visiting Lord Mayor of The City of London, Alderman David Brewer, discussing town planning that might be used to modify the City of Bangkok.

Mr. Apirak said he wanted to improve Bangkok's town planning and adopt international standards by emulating the City of London.http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=97131

Let's remember that the Lord Mayor of the City of London only "looks after" one square mile. Given the rates that Square Mile generates they are more custodians than planners.

If you run into him, tell him we need joined up cycle lanes free from maniacs in white vans, especially at the Barts/Barbican roundabout.

Northstar thank-you for the short history of Dutch colonisation, but what has this to do with the price of herring or hits-pot ? The poor English are so hard up the only reason they keep their tired monarchy is because they are a tacky yet lucrative tourist attraction.

I missed the queens in a junk, I was out of town. I am not a queen any-way so would hardly have joined in. Though now that you mention the Dutch, I have gone down the Brouwers in a barge on their queens birthday.

You see, you keep making the same mistake, Her Majesty is not just the Queen of England, but of the United Kingdom and places as significant as Canada and Baruda too.
This excellent site (http://www.eonline.com/On/Royalty/Profiles/queen.html) gives you the full title.

Now do tell us - what is the terrible thing the English did to you, apart from helping the Scots develop the infrastructure of the former colony you presumably choose to live in. Were you at school with too many of them?

[cottmann]

You see, you keep making the same mistake, Her Majesty is not just the Queen of England, but of the United Kingdom and places as significant as Canada and Baruda too.
This excellent site (http://www.eonline.com/On/Royalty/Profiles/queen.html) gives you the full title.

Now do tell us - what is the terrible thing the English did to you, apart from helping the Scots develop the infrastructure of the former colony you presumably choose to live in. Were you at school with too many of them?

Baruda is where? Bermuda, Barbados, Barbuda (part of Antigua and Barbuda)?

Perhaps the English practised to much of the "English vice" at the school Cedric went to - or perhaps not enough?

Baruda est Barbuda en Francais.

I fear it's the below-stairs upbringing that Hedda told us about - http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/fo ... g.php?w=21 (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/weblog.php?w=21)

Brenda only wishes. Please northernlights, I understand your and our notion of a united kingdom, I don't have to accept it though do I or even recognise it.
The English have done nothing to me personally, other than just piss me off by being English, like their sister nationals the French do.

Oh this is tiresome. Just put it down to rebellious youth wont you. Do you really need my pedigree so badly? Next you will force me onto the settee disclosing the infamous family jewels. I am just leaving for a late dinner as it is.

...how right you are young Cedric. But consider this. If you are going to position yourself as being above identifying with a particular nationality (having there passports n'all) you really should not strike out at people purely on the grounds of the nationality they have the guts to identify with, warts and all.

This was not a nationalistic issue. This was about keeping the last few remaining green spots in Bangkok green. It was the English themselves who made the statement to the effect that they had no money to keep up their embassies and consulates. But I suspect even though this is true, its more a case of a large dollop of pure unashamed greed.
How merry must have been the empire, when they could afford to put their best foot forward. Now its nothing more than a fungal sweaty sock.

The plot was only 9 rai, or around 3.5 acres. Not exactly what could be called the "green lung of Bangkok", and hardly enough to get one's panties in a twist over.

PS: Lumpinee Park is 140 acres.

Yes and I live on 50 hectars, what has that got to do with it? Bangkok has one of the lowest ratios of green spaces to population on the globe.

The English also made the statement to the effect that they didn't consider the land worthy (only in hard cash though) because it was close to a major road and full of car fumes. So OK the English are lacking in little grey cells, but is a shopping centre going to help this particular situation for the people of Bangkok. I really couldn't give a toss if the English ambassador chokes on carbon monoxide it will be their just deserts. But I do care enough about the citizens of Bangkok to consider the English selfish greedy and backward.

All through Bangkok I see open green spaces being turned into car parks or being built on. Especially on larger properties where the old or historical buildings have been spared demolition. They end up looking like white elephants (yes not a good comparison but one we understand) void of context, just take a look at the monstrosity the "Blue Elephant" restaurant has become, it looks like a drive by Mc Donald's with less shrubbery, or a rather flashy petrol station.

Bangkok is a city rapidly loosing its charm, not to mention the quality of life its citizens should be able to expect.

[cottmann]

.... Bangkok has one of the lowest ratios of green spaces to population on the globe

Would you quote the source for this information or is it simply personal opinion? The BMA has opened many new parks in the past 15 years, including Benjasiri on Sukhumvit, several parks commemorating the king's reign, and so on. There are actually three parks on Rattanakosin Island alone, as well as many smaller parks - like the one near Victory Monument - where the local inhabitants walk, jog, etc. I know, because it was my local one when I lived on Rajavithi.


....Bangkok is a city rapidly loosing its charm, not to mention the quality of life its citizens should be able to expect.

Then I suggest that you did not know Bangkok BEFORE the Skytrain and the subway went in - when the air was blue with exhaust from car engines and travelling any distance took hours.

With regard to "the quality of life its citizens should be able to expect," surely that is something for the Thai Government to consider, not the British. It would be inconceivably arrogant for the British Government to interfere in the affairs of the BMA on such a matter.

The British government owned an asset that was no longer needed, so they sold it. BFD. They're not responsible for what Bangkok has become.

Cottman just google it, I think it was one of the guides, maybe insight.
I can't believe the responses I have heard from this tiny forum community. Its "not the British" it's the Thai government blah blah blah. Just let em close down Soi Cowboy and hear the harpies scream to life. Then again perhapse it is the Prada mega store you have all been waiting for?
Those tacky Hom underpants getting a bit tight up the crack are they?

[cottmann]

Cottman just google it, I think it was one of the guides, maybe insight.
I can't believe the responses I have heard from this tiny forum community. Its "not the British" it's the Thai government blah blah blah. Just let em close down Soi Cowboy and hear the harpies scream to life. Then again perhapse it is the Prada mega store you have all been waiting for?
Those tacky Hom underpants getting a bit tight up the crack are they?

I googled "Bangkok Green Spaces" and got a list of parks etc. I did find the Insight guide reference but would be interested in more authoritative sources.

I have no interest in either Soi Cowboy or Prada mega-stores, and most certainly do not wear Hom underwear - tacky or otherwise.

"Insight Guides"

555 555 555 - statistical authority on nothing, except perhaps quality restaurant telephone numbers.

My ex held a very senior position with that circle of lotus eating photographers both in their early days and later under the big German publishing company.

555 555 555 555

...sorry, it's just too funny, for anyone to put statistical credibility on what are essentially beautifully produced coffee table restaurant and hotel lists.