Thais + ambition = no good???

[cdnmatt]

Here's a question I've been pondering. Won't bother going into the story behind it, because will just get a bunch of bitchy replies along the lines of, "ohh, you post too much about your life", and blah, blah, blah...

Anyway, anyone know if being ambitious and individualistic in Issan is frowned on? And if so, why? Just a few nights ago I told Kim I was really happy because he has lots of ambition for this new thing he's working on. Instead of getting a "khawp khun kap honey" in return, he was pissed. There was a chance it was just mis-communication because I said it in Thai, but I doubt it, because I even showed him the word "ambition" in the dictionary to make sure he knew what I meant. He was quite pissed off though, and going off about how Thai people can't be like that, and blah, blah...

Anyone know anything about that? I know I don't. Best I can figure is up here, society is far more communal in nature. Most people seem to just find their comfort zone in life, where everything is sabaai-sabaai, then just live it out. Whether that's owning a small convenience store, being a veternarian,
owning a small restaurant, or whatever. Once comfortable, most people don't seem too bothered to advance themselves any. So I'm just assuming that breaking the mold, and becoming entrepreneurial and ambitious is frowned upon in these parts?

Or any insights from anyone?

Maybe they see "entrepreneurial" and "ambitious" people as just plain "greedy"?

Having known some examples personally, they may not be far off the mark.

:occasion9:

He was quite pissed off though, and going off about how Thai people can't be like that, and blah, blah...



I fear you do have a lot to learn aboout Thai society, and the process may be a painful one. To understand his reaction you need to understand Buddhism in much more detail, and I definitely don't mean the western version. In Thailand, Buddhism has been subtly modified over the last few decades to act as a tool in controlling the great uneducated masses. It is also used as a means of justifying the tributes (tea money) that are paid everywhere. In a nutshell, Thai buddhism is used to teach "you are where you are (in terms of social position, wellbeing, etc) because of what you did in previous lives, ie how much Kharma you earnt. There is nothing you can do in this life about your position, yuo cannot change it. All you can do is do good deeds to accumulate more Kharma in thye hope of being reborn to a better life next time around"

So yes, ambition would be seen as bad.

There is an excellent book that is well worth the read, but you can't buy it in this country.

...all you can do is do good deeds to accumulate more Kharma in the hope of being reborn to a better life next time around..."

Oh dear... some of our SGT members will be coming back as a cockroach in that case.


:rolling:

[cdnmatt]

Which definition of "ambition" did you show him? They do not all convey positive connotations.

My exact words were: р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╣Лр╕вр╕зр╕Щ р╕╡р╣Йр╕Ьр╕Щр╕Фр╕╡р╣� �р╕Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ар╕Юр╕� �р╕▓р╕░р╕Др╕╣р╕Ур╕бр� �╡р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Чр╕░р ╣Ар╕вр╕нр╕Чр╕░р╕вр╕▓� �╕Щр╣Ар╕Ър╣Зр╕Щр╕Щр╕▒� �╕Бр╕Шр╕╕р╕гр╕Бр╕┤р╕И

English translation: "Right now, I'm really glad because you have ambition to be a businessman"

The word for ambition I used was: р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Чр╕░р╣� �р╕вр╕нр╕Чр╕░р╕вр╕▓р╕ Щ. Maybe that's not the right word???

I mean, it's just selling shirts and shit, so nothing special. He won't shut up about it though, so I told him if he wants me to bankroll it, get me some details. Sure enough, within 48 hours he hands me a nicely written inventory, explaining exactly what he wants, how much each item will cost, etc. He's got it all planned out in his mind right now that once he gets some cashflow, he's going to get his friends on board to sell with him, and build this big, shirt-selling enterprise. Busting his ass nowadays to keep his boss happy, because he knows his boss will give him a free ride to Bangkok to pickup inventory, etc. You know, nothing special for us, but for him it's huge, and I was really happy for him.

You're right though, I should really start putting more hours into learning Thai again. Been a bit lazy about that recently.

[Dodger]

cdMatt...

You should really concentrate on gwm4asian's response, as he is absolutely spot on with his comments.

Attempting to cultivate a relationship with a Thai without understanding the basic underpinnings of Buddhism will leave you standing in the dark. Not that you will ever be totally enlightened regarding their feelings, mannerisms or motivations, but at least you will understand the basics.

An interesting observation I've made over time is that the Thais, especially those living in impoverished areas like Isaan, hold true to their Buddhist beliefs as it relates to the topic at hand,, although also exhibit tendencies to lie, cheat, steal, deceive and swindle, for their own benifit - all of which are behaviors which totally contradict the precepts of Buddhism.

One night I was sitting around a small mountain of chilli peppars while Thep's mom and a half dozen other women went through the process sorting the peppars. This is always done at night under the light of a bon fire when it is cool and the normal daily chores are done. The sorting process involves inspecting each and every peppar by sqeezing it with your fingers - where the soft peppars, being those which have been infested with insects and not suitable for market get tossed into a reject pile, and the acceptable peppars (hard to the touch) in another pile. After several hours had passed I asked Thep why his mother was staying up so late as she wasn't feeling well that day. His response was that she had to stay until the sorting was completed out of fear that the others would steal her share of the rejected peppars. Understanding that the sorters get to keep the rejects - which in turn are sun-dried, crushed into chilli powder and sold at the market for twice as much money as the good peppars. Interesting that most the other women involved with the sorting process were all family relatives...Go figure!

If you are interested in learning more about Thai culture - you need to understand the Basics of Buddhism. If you are attempting to cultivate a relationship with a Thai - you also need to understand the Basics of Con-Artistry...unless you want to end up on Swindlers List.

[MiniMee]

cdMatt...
You should really concentrate on gwm4asian's response, as he is absolutely spot on with his comments.

In your humble opinion, of course. But Matt, I think you should pay equal attention to Oops's comments as he seems to know what he's talking about.


One night I was sitting around a small mountain of chilli peppars while Thep's mom and a half dozen other women went through the process sorting the peppars........ Understanding that the sorters get to keep the rejects - which in turn are sun-dried, crushed into chilli powder and sold at the market for twice as much money as the good peppars.

But yes I agree, that's the trouble with those country folk - thick as shit. You or I would just toss the whole lot in the reject pile rather than spend all that time sorting out the good ones to sell at half the price, wouldn't we?

But what is a Peppar anyway? Or are you Sweedish?

A tourist in Hawaii was watching a man catch crabs. The crabs were tossed into a bucket which was not really big enough to prevent them from crawling out and escaping. The tourist queried the fisherman about the size of the bucket and was told, "Don't worry, mister, these are Hawaiian crabs. As soon as one gets near the top of the bucket, the others pull him back down".

[Beachlover]

A tourist in Hawaii was watching a man catch crabs. The crabs were tossed into a bucket which was not really big enough to prevent them from crawling out and escaping. The tourist queried the fisherman about the size of the bucket and was told, "Don't worry, mister, these are Hawaiian crabs. As soon as one gets near the top of the bucket, the others pull him back down".

I've heard Indians say their people are "act like crabs" this way too. A lot of societies are like that.

[Dodger]

Minimee Wrote:


You or I would just toss the whole lot in the reject pile rather than spend all that time sorting out the good ones to sell at half the price, wouldn't we?

No actually WE wouldn't...you would. I would be selling them all the same as those country folk do.

[Brad the Impala]

Which definition of "ambition" did you show him? They do not all convey positive connotations.

My exact words were: р╣Ар╕Фр╕╡р╣Лр╕вр╕зр╕Щ р╕╡р╣Йр╕Ьр╕Щр╕Фр╕╡р╣� �р╕Ир╕бр╕▓р╕Бр╣Ар╕Юр╕� �р╕▓р╕░р╕Др╕╣р╕Ур╕бр� �╡р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Чр╕░р ╣Ар╕вр╕нр╕Чр╕░р╕вр╕▓� �╕Щр╣Ар╕Ър╣Зр╕Щр╕Щр╕▒� �╕Бр╕Шр╕╕р╕гр╕Бр╕┤р╕И

English translation: "Right now, I'm really glad because you have ambition to be a businessman"

The word for ambition I used was: р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Чр╕░р╣� �р╕вр╕нр╕Чр╕░р╕вр╕▓р╕ Щ. Maybe that's not the right word???



For what it's worth my BF thinks that the first problem with this statement comes in the "right now", and the implication that before this there has been no attribute to be proud of, and that a better way to phrase this would have been to say that Matt was proud of the businessman that Kim is, without the implication that he was previously less worthy.

He also thinks that "ambition" can have the negative connotation of being greedy, particularly among the less well educated.(I am guessing that this is the main problem), in which case the Thai for "enterprising" would be more positive.

I should also say that the more English that he learns, the more that he realises that many Thai English dictionaries are misleading and inaccurate, and this may be an excellent example of the missing nuances!

[MiniMee]

Minimee Wrote:


You or I would just toss the whole lot in the reject pile rather than spend all that time sorting out the good ones to sell at half the price, wouldn't we?

No actually WE wouldn't...you would. I would be selling them all the same as those country folk do.

But earlier you told us that the rejected 'peppars' sell for twice the price of the good ones and now you say that you, and they, would sell them all for the same price. Which is it?

Either way the question remains - why do those country folk spend their time separating the good ones out if there is nothing to be gained?

[Dani69]

Boring :bot:

[Dodger]

Minimee wrote:


Either way the question remains - why do those country folk spend their time separating the good ones out if there is nothing to be gained?


Minimee...so I don't leave you standing in the fog, many of the commercial crops in LOS are grown organically (without pestisides, herbisides, or growth enhancers) and require sorting to remove the insect infested (or damaged) crops from those which are going to be sold on the open market. This said, the Thais don't waste anything and use the rejected crops for things such as re-fertilization, animal feed, or in the case of rejected chilli's - sun-dried (kills the insects) for sellable chili powder.

cdMatt...sorry to go off-topic.

Your bf may not be comfortable with all this work stuff - and got pissed off when you praised his "ambitiousness" when he knows full well that it is your ambition that's really at work here - not his. Just a thought.

Not understanding 'real buddhism' I find it scary that even amongst families, that the section relating to the boys mother not being well and refusing to go to bed because,..... feeling should be there.


The question I would ask is....would your 'mother in law' be a participant in that same logic if someone else were to leave early from the sorting of the chillies?!!! Or does she feel above the others?

I hope that makes sense!



cdMatt...

You should really concentrate on gwm4asian's response, as he is absolutely spot on with his comments.

Attempting to cultivate a relationship with a Thai without understanding the basic underpinnings of Buddhism will leave you standing in the dark. Not that you will ever be totally enlightened regarding their feelings, mannerisms or motivations, but at least you will understand the basics.

An interesting observation I've made over time is that the Thais, especially those living in impoverished areas like Isaan, hold true to their Buddhist beliefs as it relates to the topic at hand,, although also exhibit tendencies to lie, cheat, steal, deceive and swindle, for their own benifit - all of which are behaviors which totally contradict the precepts of Buddhism.

One night I was sitting around a small mountain of chilli peppars while Thep's mom and a half dozen other women went through the process sorting the peppars. This is always done at night under the light of a bon fire when it is cool and the normal daily chores are done. The sorting process involves inspecting each and every peppar by sqeezing it with your fingers - where the soft peppars, being those which have been infested with insects and not suitable for market get tossed into a reject pile, and the acceptable peppars (hard to the touch) in another pile. After several hours had passed I asked Thep why his mother was staying up so late as she wasn't feeling well that day. His response was that she had to stay until the sorting was completed out of fear that the others would steal her share of the rejected peppars. Understanding that the sorters get to keep the rejects - which in turn are sun-dried, crushed into chilli powder and sold at the market for twice as much money as the good peppars. Interesting that most the other women involved with the sorting process were all family relatives...Go figure!

If you are interested in learning more about Thai culture - you need to understand the Basics of Buddhism. If you are attempting to cultivate a relationship with a Thai - you also need to understand the Basics of Con-Artistry...unless you want to end up on Swindlers List.

Oh dear... some of our SGT members will be coming back as a cockroach


[attachment=0:14q9dblv]cockroach costume.jpg[/attachment:14q9dblv]

[allieb]

cdMatt...sorry to go off-topic.

Your bf may not be comfortable with all this work stuff - and got pissed off when you praised his "ambitiousness" when he knows full well that it is your ambition that's really at work here - not his. Just a thought.

And especially as you have funded it. He has nothing to loose if it fails, only you have

[Dodger]

Hime Wrote:


The question I would ask is....would your 'mother in law' be a participant in that same logic if someone else were to leave early from the sorting of the chillies?!!! Or does she feel above the others?

Good question.

Frankly, and as much as I dislike saying this, I think Theps mother is just as capable of being mistrusted as all the others. From what I've observed, Village life has a very tough and muddy colored under-layer. Even though villagers, including immediate family members rely on each other so much, they are all swindlers to some degree. I think the lack of education and social development accounts for a lot of this - coupled with a very distinct lack of moral judgement.

The seed planters steal from the seed bins - the pickers steal from the hauling bags - the tractor drivers steal from the pickers bags - and the sorters steal from each other, and some how the remainder of the harvest makes it to market. The same way the working boys constantly steal from each other when they're shacked up together in places like PTY and BKK...then their families rob them blind when they return home...and the cycle continues.

[cdnmatt]

The question I would ask is....would your 'mother in law' be a participant in that same logic if someone else were to leave early from the sorting of the chillies?!!! Or does she feel above the others?

I think for the most part, it's simple common sense & ethics. if you don't put in the hours to sort the chillis, then you don't get any from the "reject pile". Simple as that. Exact same concepts as the West. If you don't work, you don't get paid. Difference being, when it comes to Issan villages, the standard & underling attitude is that everyone is expected to put in their share of work. You're not allowed to just say fuck everyone, and go off doing your own thing. That's just not the way things work.

I honestly believe us farangs try to complicate things far more than needed, then try to pass it off as it's because Thais are some weird breed of humans. Keeps us intrigued and busy, I guess. Anyway, thank you for all your comments, and definitely, some were very valid. Too drunk to write anything decent right now. Will make sure to do so tomorrow, as many replies were awesome!

[MiniMee]

Minimee...so I don't leave you standing in the fog, many of the commercial crops in LOS are grown organically (without pestisides, herbisides, or growth enhancers) and require sorting to remove the insect infested (or damaged) crops from those which are going to be sold on the open market. This said, the Thais don't waste anything and use the rejected crops for things such as re-fertilization, animal feed, or in the case of rejected chilli's - sun-dried (kills the insects) for sellable chili powder.

What are you waffling about now? The process of sorting the good from the bad, and making some use of everything is hardly unique to Thailand is it? My question was concerning the economic motivation for doing so, given the relative values you mentioned in your little story. Surely even an uneducated management consultant could understand that.

Your initial assertion was that the rejected 'peppars' had twice the value of the selected fruit and could be retained by the graders FOC. When challenged, you amended your story to say that both reject and prime 'peppars' had the same market value.

So getting back to the point: why would the villagers bother to grade the crop if those placed in the reject pile gave a higher or equal return?

[cdnmatt]

So getting back to the point: why would the villagers bother to grade the crop if those placed in the reject pile gave a higher or equal return?

It's quite simple... supply & demand... Guaranteed far more kilos of chillis are sold vs. chilli powder. If everyone started crushing every chilli into powder, there'd probably be a fuck of alot of chilli powder in the markets that nobody can sell, but no chillis in sight.

[Dodger]

Minimee,

Let me try to make this as clearly as I can.

ALL chillies which are harvested have a value attached to them.

The acceptable chillies (hard to the touch) get bagged and sold on the market.

The infested chillies (soft to the touch) are sorted out - sun-dried - ground - jarred - and sold on the market as chilli powder.

If a farmer delivers a load of chillies which contain the infested chillies to entire load is rejected.

The sorters are paid peanuts for their work, although get to keep the rejects as a small bonus.

In the hostory of our planet - the earliest signs of planned agriculture have been traced back to Siam soil, so if there was a better way to do this believe me the Thais would have already figured it out.

cdMatt,

The Thais are wonderful people so please don't get me wrong, but they take no prisoners when it comes to taking all they can get, thus the reason why half of the rejected chillies are not soft.

Who introduced chilli's to Thailand as they are not a native crop?

Who introduced chilli's to Thailand as they are not a native crop?

Mr. Wong from Guangdong

[Beachlover]

thus the reason why half of the rejected chillies are not soft.

Hahaha... That sucks for the grower. And by doing this the Thais lower the value of their labour. (i.e. not willing to pay as much for these workers as opposed to a more honest/reliable type).


My question was concerning the economic motivation for doing so, given the relative values you mentioned in your little story. Surely even an uneducated management consultant could understand that.?

The uneducated management consultant would also realise their time is probably worth little enough to make sorting chillis a viable process.

[cdnmatt]

He also thinks that "ambition" can have the negative connotation of being greedy, particularly among the less well educated.(I am guessing that this is the main problem), in which case the Thai for "enterprising" would be more positive.

Yep, that's exactly what it was. Looked up the Thai word for "greed" last night, and sure enough, that's what he thought I meant. Doesn't matter any, but I was just a little intrigued as to why he'd be offended.


The Thais are wonderful people so please don't get me wrong, but they take no prisoners when it comes to taking all they can get

Yeah, been learning that one quite quickly. At one time, we had four people who proclaimed themselves our cleaning lady, and wanted to come by once a week to clean and get their 200 - 300 baht. They'd just show up at our house whenever they felt like working. We just need one, thanks. Thankfully, Kim is the opposite, and is intelligent enough not to be like that. Mama on the other hand... she's tried a couple stunts before, but didn't work.

[Beachlover]

I think I understand what Minemee is saying, and your answer still doesn't explain why the grower wouldn't decide to turn the whole batch into chilly powder, which would be more money for him.

Doesn't that involve more labour/processing?

[MiniMee]

It's quite simple... supply & demand... Guaranteed far more kilos of chillis are sold vs. chilli powder. If everyone started crushing every chilli into powder, there'd probably be a fuck of alot of chilli powder in the markets that nobody can sell, but no chillis in sight.

Almost - but the obvious corollary is that the price paid for the chilli powder would fall to a value that the market allows, which is contrary to DodgerтАЩs assertions. If it remained high, everyone would be into that game.


Let me try to make this as clearly as I can....

MattтАЩs wrestling with it and Homesoon understands, but you have still failed to address the (only) question concerning the economics.

But here's another startling little known fact that you bring to us:

In the hostory of our planet - the earliest signs of planned agriculture have been traced back to Siam soil.

Not according to anything I've ever read! Popular theories usually point to the Levant or the banks of the Nile. Can you substantiate your claim?

Doesn't that involve more labour/processing?There's a large premium that can be charged for hand-made Cuban cigars, and those created by rolling the tobacco against the thighs of female Cuban virgins commands the highest price. Maybe there's a luxury market for hand-crafted chilli powder, perhaps broken down under the foreskins of Thai boys while masturbating?

[MiniMee]

I think I understand what Minemee is saying, and your answer still doesn't explain why the grower wouldn't decide to turn the whole batch into chilly powder, which would be more money for him.

Doesn't that involve more labour/processing?

Yes, but Dodger tells us that the villagers get to keep the rejected fruit FOC and can sell the crushed chilli powder for twice the price of the prime crop.

Surely that makes a little processing worthwhile.

[Dodger]

Homesoon Wrote:


I think I understand what Minemee is saying, and your answer still doesn't explain why the grower wouldn't decide to turn the whole batch into chilly powder, which would be more money for him.

Processing chillie power is too labor intensive without having modern equipment to do the work. It's common for the older women (the grandmothers) to perform these long and laboreous tasks using a mortar and pestal. It takes them hours, but keeps them busy and makes them feel like they're making a contribution. There are companies who import chillies for the sole purpose of processing them into various types chilli powders - but the processing is done in modern factories with automatic equipment where production is measured by the tonnage...not a grandmother sitting on a straw mat with a mortar and pestal.

[Beachlover]

I think I understand what Minemee is saying, and your answer still doesn't explain why the grower wouldn't decide to turn the whole batch into chilly powder, which would be more money for him.

Doesn't that involve more labour/processing?

Yes, but Dodger tells us that the villagers get to keep the rejected fruit FOC and can sell the crushed chilli powder for twice the price of the prime crop.

Surely that makes a little processing worthwhile.

My point is that the "doubling" of value doesn't happen automatically.

[Beachlover]

It takes them hours, but keeps them busy and makes them feel like they're making a contribution.

Exactly... Being happy to spend long hours doing something, which ultimately doesn't make them much... is probably why they are relatively poor.


Yes, but Dodger tells us that the villagers get to keep the rejected fruit FOC and can sell the crushed chilli powder for twice the price of the prime crop.

Surely that makes a little processing worthwhile.

My point is that the "doubling" of value doesn't happen automatically. Hence, why the growers don't process it into powder and 'sell it for double' themselves.

[Dodger]

Beachlover Wrote:


Exactly... Being happy to spend long hours doing something, which ultimately doesn't make them much... is probably why they are relatively poor.

Yes...but not doing it at all would render them with less.

Thai farmers are not poor because they enjoy doing things that don't make them much - they are poor because they don't have the money to do things the way they would like to. Compared to the average farmer in the U.S. who is equiped with a good tractor, combine, baler and automatic water sprinkler system, the Thais do pretty good. Yes, I'm sure they would rather be driving a shaded John Deere tractor with a glass of lemonade in one hand versus sloshing through the mud behind a lame water buffalo, but they do the best they can.

By-the-way, if you ever spent an afternoon watching a young Thai boy sloshing through the mud with his water buffalo - exerting the primary function of the gluteus maximus to the maximus - you would know where those perfectly sculpted asses came from.

[MiniMee]

Thai farmers are not poor because they enjoy doing things that don't make them much - they are poor because they don't have the money to do things the way they would like to.

Yes, you heard it here first folks - the answer to one of lifeтАЩs mysteries: The poor are poor because they donтАЩt have enough money!

Profound. Spoken like a true management consultant (uneducated or otherwise). When shall we expect your invoice?

[Beachlover]

Thai farmers are not poor because they enjoy doing things that don't make them much - they are poor because they don't have the money to do things the way they would like to.

Yes, you heard it here first folks - the answer to one of lifeтАЩs mysteries: The poor are poor because they donтАЩt have enough money!

Profound. Spoken like a true management consultant (uneducated or otherwise). When shall we expect your invoice?

You obviously have another agenda here.

[Dodger]

Beachlover Wrote:


You obviously have another agenda here

Beachlover,

Minimouse is just a troll, and yes he has another agenda here - but he'll have a tough time maintaining it...(as he always has).

[Beachlover]

and without the right equipment the poor stay poor.

Go deeper to the cause and say... Without planning and developing a strategy to acquire the right equipment the poor stay poor.

This is why micro-lending is such a game changer in countries, which are even worse off than Thailand/Isaan...

[bkkguy]

and without the right equipment the poor stay poor.
This is why micro-lending is such a game changer in countries, which are even worse off than Thailand/Isaan...

yet most of the funds from the village scheme in Thailand where squandered on mobiles phones and other consumer items or debt repayment and the debt was just run up again fairly quickly - perhaps they didn't have enough "ambition" to use the money to better their long term position compared to micro-lending recipients in other countries!

bkkguy

[Beachlover]

Totally right... No planning or rational thought put into decisions.

I think this goes back to values. In China, wealth, prosperity, accumulation, sacrifice (for future good), astute decision making are ingrained in the culture. Sensible stuff.

[Dodger]

Beachlover Wrote:


I think this goes back to values. In China, wealth, prosperity, accumulation, sacrifice (for future good), astute decision making are ingrained in the culture. Sensible stuff.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here.

The Chinese, supported by very agressive and astute decision making, are busy mass producing other countries products with absolutely no regard for copywrite infringement and doing so at the sacrifice of adequate environmental controls which are intended to protect their people. The Chinese have no values whatsoever and would sell their mothers to make a buck. The Three Rivers Gorge project which has been dubbed (by the Chinese of course) the 8th wonder of the world - just displaced and destroyed the lives of over 2 million Chinese citizens without the dictators who run the country even blinking an eye. I agree that wealth, prosperity, and accumulation were all components of this decision making process, but for the future good of the wealthy dictators - not the people. Is this what you call sensible stuff?

[Beachlover]

Totally right... No planning or rational thought put into decisions.

I think this goes back to values. In China, wealth, prosperity, accumulation, sacrifice (for future good), astute decision making are ingrained in the culture. Sensible stuff.

Singapore is not all Chinese.

Are your Malay and Indian countrymen any less annoying than your Chinese ones?

True, but the leadership is largely Chinese.

Singapore (upon independence) was led by a group of young, dynamic Chinese leaders who took charge with strong vision and foresight and got it to where it is today - the second wealthiest per capita country in South-East Asia after resource-rich Brunei.

There's plenty of downsides to Singapore but its achievement of economic/financial success and political stability against all odds can't be questioned. Isn't that why you've made a base for yourself there?

[Beachlover]

I suppose "sensible stuff" weren't the right words to use.


The Chinese have no values whatsoever and would sell their mothers to make a buck.

Just because you don't relate to their mix of values doesn't mean they're not values... every culture has values, good or bad.

Like any culture, the people are not completely consistent in following their values. How often do we see Thais contradicting what we think are values they are supposed to have?


The Chinese, supported by very agressive and astute decision making, are busy mass producing other countries products with absolutely no regard for copywrite infringement

Why would they care about copyright infringement? The Chinese don't have a reputation for being honest. If they can get away with lying to make a buck, many (but not all) of them will do it.


doing so at the sacrifice of adequate environmental controls which are intended to protect their people.

This is just one of the sacrifices made when you have a huge country and a massive amount of economic catching up to do. There's no way they can afford to spend two years doing an environmental impact assessment every time a factory is to be built.

Environmental protection and sustainability are gradually featuring more in their government policy... But economic gain still takes priority.


The Three Rivers Gorge project which has been dubbed (by the Chinese of course) the 8th wonder of the world - just displaced and destroyed the lives of over 2 million Chinese citizens without the dictators who run the country even blinking an eye.

Two million... that's less than 1% of the population.

But what's your point there? I think the logic behind it was utilitarian... they believed the greatest good for the greatest number of people was more important.


I agree that wealth, prosperity, and accumulation were all components of this decision making process, but for the future good of the wealthy dictators - not the people. Is this what you call sensible stuff?

In my experience, the Chinese tend to look after themselves and their own family more than anything. They couldn't give a toss about anyone else.

-----

Anyway... My comments were simply to provoke discussion into why the Chinese are so economically successful in the various countries they populate. I'm really not for one race or another. I'm from a mix of Asian races myself but mostly Western in thinking.

I just find it interesting to learn about the values and beliefs different cultures have and where this leads them.

[Beachlover]

But Singaporean Chinese are way annoying in a way that the Taiwanese, Malaysian-Chinese, Chinese-Americans, etc. are not. It's more than just being "Chinese".

Annoying in what way? Which "annoying" aspect you're referring to? They have many.

Are the Malay-Singaporeans, Indian-Singaporeans etc. annoying in the same way?

Perhaps it's got something to do with them knowing they are more successful than their counterparts in other countries... like the Malaysian-Chinese for example... a little arrogance. I don't know...


As for political stability, perhaps the ruling party's ruthless crushing of any opposition voice has something to do with it.

Yes... but business people who find a haven there need not worry themselves with that. They just need to know the place is safe and stable.

[krobbie]

The fact remains that there is a percentage of population in most countries, whether they be Western or Asia, that are poor. They constantly struggle to survive and will do most any work to to meet their needs. Each country have jobs that rely on these people to do that very work.

China for all that has million's more in this class, which is why they are the one's working in the factories and "small jobs" making any old thing the "West" requires. Without the so called, lower class worker, who would do all the shitty jobs? If everyone was on top of the heap then what? Now of course, China being the mega giant it is, does more of this production work and for a lesser margin, so now there is less manufacturing in Indonesia, Taiwan, Thailand and India for the workers there that have depended on it for an age.

The poser now, is how to distribute this work so all of these countries get a slice of the poorly paid work instead of a little or none? Unfortunately I don't have the answer because personally I will buy the best product for the least price and carry this to its end. What to do?

Just my opinion. But this is a really good and thought provoking thread.

krobbie

[Beachlover]

No, the Malay-Singaporeans and Indian-Singaporeans are not nearly as annoying. It's a Chinese thing, and it's mostly arrogance. The HK Chinese have a lot of the same arrogance, and it is on the rise in the PRC, too. Luckily, the Taiwanese have mostly avoided it. They are the friendliest, least arrogant, and most laid back people in the Chinese diaspora -- and their economic miracle exceeds even Singapore's.

Arrogance. That sounds about right. But having spent many years looking up to Westerners, they're quite proud to be out-performing them on many fronts.

I agree Taiwanese are really nice people...

Still, it's all comparable with some of the shite we put up with from Westerners on occasion so it goes both ways.

[Beachlover]

Without the so called, lower class worker, who would do all the shitty jobs?

Well, in Singapore, you notice they import workers from India, Indonesia and the Philippines etc. to do all the low-skilled jobs... maids, cleaners, construction, repairmen... even a lot of nursing positions are taken up by foreigners, leaving more of the local Singaporean work force free to upskill to more challenging roles like, doctors/surgeons.

The workers from economically less developed countries get to earn more money and send it back to their familes... Local Singaporeans get to focus on up-skilling and increasing their value (as a work force) to the world. Everyone wins, except of course, you're a local who's too lazy to upskill and would prefer to remain a cleaner/builder.


China for all that has million's more in this class, which is why they are the one's working in the factories and "small jobs" making any old thing the "West" requires.

At some point, the tide will start turning... There's actually a labour shortage in certain areas of China now.


The poser now, is how to distribute this work so all of these countries get a slice of the poorly paid work instead of a little or none? Unfortunately I don't have the answer because personally I will buy the best product for the least price and carry this to its end. What to do?

That's exactly the point. You're just doing what you're supposed to do... Let the market work it out.

It's not about making sure all these countries get a slice of the poorly paid work... It's about countries competing to become more innovative and productive so the whole world benefits (if unevenly)... their incentive (to be more productive) is to get ahead so they're not doing the shitty work!

Whatever the various merits of Singapore and the Singaporeans, after a couple of days there, you start to notice the Stepford quality of the place and how mind numbingly dull it really is.

[Beachlover]

That may be the case going there as a tourist, expecting to find what you might find in Vietnam, Thailand or Malaysia... but a lot of people find it a fantastic place to live and work, depending on preferences. Service is terrific, transport and amenities are first class, food and eateries (both casual dining takeaway and fine dining) are second to none, nightlife is great, and it's all pretty cheap, considering they live by Western standards (i.e. it's not a developing nation)...

Beachlover - You clearly did not get the point of my post so let me spell it out for you.

Stepford - used to criticize any person, male or female, who submits meekly to authority and/or abuse; or even to describe someone who lives in a robotic, conformist manner without giving offense to anyone. The word "Stepford" can also be used as an adjective denoting servility or blind conformity, ("He's a real Stepford employee"), or a noun ("My home town is a Stepford")

I would in fact argue that all the things you rate so highly, service, transport, amenities, food, eateries, nightlife, all reinforce the Stepford quality of the place. All carefully crafted and constructed to be a clean, modern, efficient, organized city but completely lacking in soul or spontaneity.

As for cheap, I do disagree. Last time I was there and had to pay SD 11 for a cocktail disabused any notion of value for money.

[Beachlover]

Stepford - used to criticize any person, male or female, who submits meekly to authority and/or abuse; or even to describe someone who lives in a robotic, conformist manner without giving offense to anyone. The word "Stepford" can also be used as an adjective denoting servility or blind conformity, ("He's a real Stepford employee"), or a noun ("My home town is a Stepford")

Yep... I missed the Stepford bit.

It's true... Singaporeans love rules and logic and will follow anything, which sounds rational to them.

You have to spend a bit of time there and get to know locals to get to the heart of Singaporeans and understand why they are the way they are. The thing about Singapore is even the dirt poor working class have a pretty decent standard of living compared to the poor in other Asian countries.

But I do agree you will NOT get the spontaneity, fascinating cultural stuff or charm you get with other Asian countries. Singapore's selling point is it's a super-convenient and comfortable place to pass through, shop, work and do business... with plenty of Western style entertainment and amenities.

It's not a place for backpackers and poor foreigners.


As for cheap, I do disagree. Last time I was there and had to pay SD 11 for a cocktail disabused any notion of value for money.

I said cheap compared to Western standards... not Asian standards. Costs and value for money actually varies from item to item quite a bit.

Alcohol tax is high so $11 for a cocktail is nothing... last time I was there I paying SGD$19 for cocktails, which is on par with Western countries.

Food and basic cost of living is generally cheap. Transport and taxis are cheap. But property, rent and accommodation are as expensive as many Western countries. You can pay as much as USD$1 million for a 1-bedroom apartment. But cheap government subsidised housing is available for poorer locals or young couples starting out.

Which western countries typically charge the equivalent of SD 19 for a cocktail? Certainly none I've been too.

[Dodger]

Beachlover Wrote:


There's actually a labour shortage in certain areas of China now

From what I've seen there are a lot of short laborers over there - but not a labor shortage.

The Chinese rulers view their people as being nothing more than a replaceable commodity which underscores their true vision of "value." You are right about one thing, every country (and culture) has its own set of perceived "values". It's when the "values" of the common people are totally meaningless and fall on deaf ears is when it starts to become interesting. Speaking in general terms, this is the way the Chinese government is viewed from a western perspective.

Isn't Singapore the place where they toss you in the slammer for dropping a piece of gum on the sidewalk? Not for me.

[Beachlover]

SGD$19 is about AUD$15-$17 right?

Don't know about UK and US but cocktails are usually anywhere between $12 to $20 here in Australia depending on where you are.

One thing I found about Singapore is the base price for drinks is pretty high... but the increment you pay for a better drink isn't much. i.e. there might only be a $1-$2 difference between an ordinary cocktail and a Long Island Ice Tea... Similarly, sometimes there's not much of a difference between getting a beer and a cocktail.

[Beachlover]

From what I've seen there are a lot of short laborers over there - but not a labor shortage.

I said there was a shortage in certain sectors. It's no disaster. It just means good labour isn't as easy to find as it used to be in some areas of the economy. Demand is finally catching up to supply.. more power to the workers.


The Chinese rulers view their people as being nothing more than a replaceable commodity which underscores their true vision of "value." You are right about one thing, every country (and culture) has its own set of perceived "values". It's when the "values" of the common people are totally meaningless and fall on deaf ears is when it starts to become interesting. Speaking in general terms, this is the way the Chinese government is viewed from a western perspective.

The Chinese Government is far from perfect. I think some of the things they've done are pretty despicable too.

But do you have a better way to govern that country and a viable road map to reach it? It's a massive country... lots of people... messy.. lack of organised resources. The government does at least have a certain degree of vision and foresight...


Isn't Singapore the place where they toss you in the slammer for dropping a piece of gum on the sidewalk? Not for me.

Not jail. Just a fine. Which is perfectly alright by me. I don't get how anyone could think it's ok to toss their litter out on the street as they please.

Same goes for hanging drug traffickers...

Nothing wrong with discipline, and lets face it Singapore has got where it is as a thriving multicultural Island State against all the odds through the foresight of Lee Kwan Yew and his rather Authoritarian regime back in the 1960's when going it as part of Malaysia proved a no - no (that's how the 'sia' came about in Malaysia's name after independence) which didn't do the people any harm at all. Rather better than America which began its early history by killing off it's indigenous peoples.

[Beachlover]

That might come down to personal taste... I enjoy Singaporean/Malaysian food a lot more than Thai, Vietnamese and other Asian food... But I am starting to enjoy Thai food more and more.

[Aunty]

I think this goes back to values. In China, wealth, prosperity, accumulation, sacrifice (for future good), astute decision making are ingrained in the culture. Sensible stuff.

Yes I couldn't agree more. And we see the pinnacle of these ingrained values, the wealth, the prosperity, the astute decision making, the Chinese way if you like, in the glorious efforts of the Great Helmsman himself, Chairman Mao, and the Great Leap Backwards! Doh! No Forwards, no, it was backwards. Wasn't it? Oh shit, no wonder they had a cultural revolution? Little Red Book anybody?

[youtube:167fg8fm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1os_wge8yME[/youtube:167fg8fm]

[youtube:167fg8fm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acdYi8d_Kvc[/youtube:167fg8fm]

[Aunty]

Thai farmers are not poor because they enjoy doing things that don't make them much - they are poor because they don't have the money to do things the way they would like to. Compared to the average farmer in the U.S. who is equiped with a good tractor, combine, baler and automatic water sprinkler system, the Thais do pretty good. Yes, I'm sure they would rather be driving a shaded John Deere tractor with a glass of lemonade in one hand versus sloshing through the mud behind a lame water buffalo, but they do the best they can.


Hmmmmm. Subsidies paid to the US Farmer by the US Government to grow things people don't want. >$1,000,000,000. Subsidies paid to European Farmers by the EU to grow things people don't want. >$1,000,000,000s.

Subsidies paid to the Thai farmer by the Thai Government, 0.

So who's the genius now?

There's a good reason why there are a gazillion Thai restaurants around the world, while in the entire United States you could probably count the Malay and Singaporean/Peranakan/Nonya restaurants on one hand: it's because Thai food is so so so much better.

Oops is quite right there, and what better way to sample the delights of Thai cuisine then being adventurous and letting a Thai introduce you to the delights whilst you are in LOS.

[Beachlover]

Actually that's exactly what did it LOL.

[Dodger]

Yes, Thai food is without a doubt the best.

Chinks, Japs, Singaporeans, Malay, Thaiwanese,and Koreans all have flat faces...flat asses... small dicks... and their food sucks...so the Thais win on all counts.

Yes, Thai food is without a doubt the best. Chinks, Japs, Singaporeans, Malay, Thaiwanese,and Koreans all have flat faces...flat asses... small dicks... and their food sucks...so the Thais win on all counts.

Thats sounds very racist Dodger, it's a bit like saying all Yanks have big houses, big cars, and big mouths!

[Dodger]

combat Wrote:


Thats sounds very racist Dodger, it's a bit like saying all Yanks have big houses, big cars, and big mouths

You're right combat...that was a very poor attempt at being humorous and I apologize to anyone I may have offended by my remarks.