How to piss off a Thai guy...

[cdnmatt]

... take his motorbike away from him. Wow! Did he ever get pissy. He went and got a hotel room, and everything. That's ok though, and I don't actually care. He can get as mad at me as he wants, and I don't particularly give a shit. I said I'd pay for the bike, and the one and only condition is he's not allowed to drive drunk. He did, so I managed to lose the key while cleaning, and don't think I'll remember where I put it for about a week.

What an ass. He even has friends who for example, only have one leg right now because they drove drunk. And he still thinks it's ok. Dip shit.

Anyway, let's make this conversational. What are some times you've had to be pricks to a Thai, but only because you cared about him? Any stories?

Good Luck Matt, but I bet you don't win...TIT mate, TIT....

[catawampuscat]

you can't win..
we try to use Western logic and it doesn't translate.. you made the first mistake when
you thought telling he can't drink and drive meant anything to him.. He is young and full
of vim and vigor and you can't change him..
you can try but you can't win..
if the drinking bugs you, it will get worse and worse and you will get lose..
cut yours loses and move on but you won't because we all do the same stupid
stuff and think we can win but we can't win..

you just have to learn how to play the game better or you will never win..
nothing personal, this is universal in these type of relationships..

I know, I have been there and no doubt will again but at least with different expectations
and realities.. :hello2:

[bucknaway]

[youtube:prp02dsa]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k1JU3zQRv8[/youtube:prp02dsa]

I said I'd pay for the bike, and the one and only condition is he's not allowed to drive drunk.
[X] A reasonable requirement. Don't give it back again. Teach him a lesson.

[X] Thai friends can be as reliable as a Swiss cashier. Quality matters.

[cdnmatt]

Good Luck Matt, but I bet you don't win...TIT mate, TIT....

Oh no, I'll win, no worries there. :-) Even if he manages to find the key, trust me, he's not going to defy me unless I give him the go ahead. There's no way he'll get back on the bike while knowing I'm hurt and pissed off. He just wouldn't do that. Worst case scenario, I stop talking to him for a couple days, which I know would absolutely crush him, and probably to the point where I'd have to fuck around in a couple different villages in Issan looking for him.

I'm a really easy going guy everything, but he is simply not allowed to drive drunk. End of story. I don't give a flying fuck about the circumstances that night, you simply can not drive drunk. No discussion allowed. And he should know this, considering he has a friend who's missing a leg right now from driving drunk.


we try to use Western logic and it doesn't translate.. you made the first mistake when
you thought telling he can't drink and drive meant anything to him.. He is young and full
of vim and vigor and you can't change him..

What the hell are you talking about? "Don't drive drunk" isn't "Western logic". And that comment of yours just made yourself to be an ignorant fool, who believes Thais are some sub-class of humans. I hate farangs who do that.

And for the record, yes, he can be changed, mainly because he wants to be changed, and is willing. For example, over the last few months he's learned a great deal of empathy. I'm sorry, but I believe most Thais simply do not have much empathy, and will do whatever is in their best interest at that time, with total disregard for their fellow human. Empathy is a learned emotion, and I can proudly say, Kim now had a good deal of empathy in him. Before he does something, he now thinks about how his actions will affect others, which is great to see.

[dab69]

wondering what John Bobbett did to piss off his wife-
hide the car keys?

Matt, just wondering. How much of an understanding of Thai Buddhism, Kharma and reincarnation do you have?

You find similar stories when trying to get Tais to always use condoms, or any other self preservation ideas

[catawampuscat]

you are in denial...
I stated it was nothing personal, I don't know you or your boyfriend and frankly
I don't want to..
Many of us can relate our experieces and I have found it useless to try to educate
other farangs as they seem to have to experience things for themselves.
You posting was highly insulting and your presumptions about this poster are completely
in error.. I think the forum will decide who is the fool and the bigot...

play your games with your bf, you will lose in the end and are doomed to keep repeating
the same behavior.... Denial is a dominant force..
I won't waste any more time on this thread as it is clear to me how strong the denial is... :evil4:

[francois]

Good Luck Matt, but I bet you don't win...TIT mate, TIT....
. Worst case scenario, I stop talking to him for a couple days, which I know would absolutely crush him, and probably to the point where I'd have to fuck around in a couple different villages in Issan looking for him.
I

That's quite funny cdnmatt! You won't talk to him and then you will go looking for him? I think he just won.

Better you let him come crawling to you if you have the courage.

[X] A storm in a teacup.

[X] Rebirth, not reincarnation.

[X] Surely his boyfriend wants the keys back even before his next rebirth happens.

[gorcum-old]

I know Thai and western cultures are different, somtimes difficult to understand.
I have learned that it is not about winning or losing, because you never win.
But you should decide what is important to you and willing to draw a line. If he crosses that line and you can not live with it than you can make that perfectly clear. It is up to him to decide what is important to him.
I for one would not like my boyfriend to drive a motor bike, after he has been drinking, no matter whet the cultural diferences are. If he could not accept that, than that is to bad. I would rather sleep alone than lay awake if he is drinking and driving.

[Beachlover]

wondering what John Bobbett did to piss off his wife-
hide the car keys?

Hehe... I'm sure Kim's not going to cut off Matt's dick for hiding the keys.

[Beachlover]

... take his motorbike away from him. Wow! Did he ever get pissy. He went and got a hotel room, and everything. That's ok though, and I don't actually care. He can get as mad at me as he wants, and I don't particularly give a shit. I said I'd pay for the bike, and the one and only condition is he's not allowed to drive drunk. He did, so I managed to lose the key while cleaning, and don't think I'll remember where I put it for about a week.

What an ass. He even has friends who for example, only have one leg right now because they drove drunk. And he still thinks it's ok. Dip shit.

Anyway, let's make this conversational. What are some times you've had to be pricks to a Thai, but only because you cared about him? Any stories?

Well good luck!

I think he's young and it's natural he will probe for boundaries and test them out without knowing he's doing this. If he doesn't find something solid... he'll just go nuts.

[Beachlover]

you are in denial...
I stated it was nothing personal, I don't know you or your boyfriend and frankly
I don't want to..
Many of us can relate our experieces and I have found it useless to try to educate
other farangs as they seem to have to experience things for themselves.
You posting was highly insulting and your presumptions about this poster are completely
in error.. I think the forum will decide who is the fool and the bigot...

play your games with your bf, you will lose in the end and are doomed to keep repeating
the same behavior.... Denial is a dominant force..
I won't waste any more time on this thread as it is clear to me how strong the denial is... :evil4:

I'm sure you have more experience in Thai relationships than Matt... but I also think Matt is pretty smart and emotionally intelligent relative to most. He's gotten over plenty of hurdles where other members have said, "give up" and "trust me, it won't work and you're an idiot for trying".

I think the wider population of idiots should take the "give up" advice literally... but Matt might be someone who is a bit more effective than most at getting what he wants in life... so perhaps in his mind he knows to translate "give up" to "this is something to watch out for here..." and plan accordingly.

[bao-bao]

... take his motorbike away from him. Wow! Did he ever get pissy. He went and got a hotel room, and everything. That's ok though, and I don't actually care. He can get as mad at me as he wants, and I don't particularly give a shit. I said I'd pay for the bike, and the one and only condition is he's not allowed to drive drunk. He did, so I managed to lose the key while cleaning, and don't think I'll remember where I put it for about a week.

What an ass. He even has friends who for example, only have one leg right now because they drove drunk. And he still thinks it's ok. Dip shit.

Anyway, let's make this conversational. What are some times you've had to be pricks to a Thai, but only because you cared about him? Any stories?
My reply sounds snotty, but it's really not meant to be.

The mature thing to do would have been to have sat down, reminded him that he broke the agreement and then followed through and taken the motocy away (and dealt with the inevitable fallout) rather than play the "oops, lost the keys" game, and regardless of what it cost you re: the motocy.

So much of the culture there - and dealing with it - is about "face" and he lost face, regardless of how irresponsibly he behaved. You giving the keys back sounds like a no-win situation, too, sorry to say. It's rather like allowances, Matt: once you raise the ante you can't lower it. Allowing him to become the Alpha Dog on this point will most likely come back to haunt you, and soon; the stories are common on Thai boards about this... but good luck to you!

But to join in the conversation: I haven't been a prick to a Thai, with the exception of "Voy" on my first visit there, who borrowed money and then disappeared. I got it back, but it was due to behavior I wasn't especially proud of at the time.

[Beachlover]

I know Thai and western cultures are different, somtimes difficult to understand.

I think different cultures are brought up with different risk thresholds and it just takes time to adjust and influence others to adjust to that.

In the West we're brought up with a threshold of acceptable risk where overloading boats and people riding motorbikes without helmets is just assumed to be a no go.... compared to many developing countries where they're doing this sort of stuff from when they're young... so they just go with it. On the other end of the scale, there are some Asian cultures that consider driving in the rain too dangerous to try.

While everyone agrees that driving drunk is dangerous both for yourself and innocent people around you, I personally disagree with the way you deal with the issue ie: treating him like a kid (reads "like a father treats his son")
You can't really expect the reaction of a love partner, he will give back the average son-to-father reaction. I take the bike away because you've been a bad boy. What's up with that really? If a partner treated me like that I'd slap him senseless.

In a relationship there is always someone who is tougher than the other or richer than the other or wiser than the other but this shouldn't result in a domination-submission or worse a blackmailing.
And besides, the worst thing one can do is expecting people to change. People don't change, they grow wiser for sure, they learn, but they don't change.

Generally speaking, If you need to change someone to have a better relationship, you just need to change partner. Saves pain and wasting time.

[Beachlover]

What did Kim do anyway? Go off on a night out with friends and then ride home drunk? How drunk was he?

[X] The typical conflict of roles of lovers of young boys. Father versus lover.


And besides, the worst thing one can do is expecting people to change. People don't change, they grow wiser for sure, they learn, but they don't change.
[X] His character won't change. But he needs a father to teach him a lesson, not a compliant lover.


Generally speaking, If you need to change someone to have a better relationship, you just need to change partner. Saves pain and wasting time.
[X] Exactly. That's what Gone Fishing recommended a long time ago.

Geez, I must have pissed a good few of them off....the one who locked me out of my own hotel room one night, was dispatched before breakfast next morning.
The one who attempted to steal from me went home sore and sorry.
The ones who finally got the message that I wasn't interested in them (yeah, hard call, I know!)
The ones who drank tooooooo much and were turfed out on their ear.
The list goes on, BUT, although these young men are generally sensible, they stray from the widely accepted now and again, AS WE ALL did!

He'll get over it, you'll get over it and the world will, once again, be full of beauty.

[X] The typical conflict of roles of lovers of young boys. Father versus lover.

And that is pretty much why I could hardly be in a relationship with someone much older as they usually drag you down two paths:

1) they want to live a second and eternal youth by living and exploting someone else's youth (Puer Aeternus commonly referred to as the Peter Pan syndrome)
2) they want to act some unnatural and morbid father-son fantasy (daddies but act more like mommies really)

In case 1 they tend to use a young companion to feel justified and more at ease for doing immature things a man their age isn't socially supposed to do.
In case 2 sometimes due to lack of own children, sometimes due to lack of a real own father/mother figure or turbulent childhood, they will reverse on someone else what (they think) they unjustly didn't receive while growing up. Sometimes they also enact on the partner punishments they were given while growing up, resulting sometimes in abusive relationships.

In order to have a healthy balanced relationship we must fall in love and take the person for who they are not for something they represent be it age, race, body type, endowement, money etc
The latter are just various "dressings" that only add to the flavour of the salad - which will always be a salad.


Although I do think what I wrote in the previous post with regards to the motorbike affair, this second post is just a general opinion that doens't specifically refer to Matt!

[Thai Dyed]

The wages of love is misery.

I moved to Thailand exactly because there is absolutely no need to keep a live-in alter-ego around. There are so few long term arrangements that work out well that it is pointless to vainly hope that your own situation is the exception which is nothing more than willful ignorance in almost all cases.

There is an amazing amount of self-deception, self-victimization and illusion involved in what people call "love" which has never been defined to my satisfaction unless it was Paul Valery's comment "Love is being stupid together." If the truth be told, I think what most call "love" belongs in the category of psychopathology.

Suffer, Matt... suffer baby. The last chapter of your folly has yet to be written.

And for the record, yes, he can be changed, mainly because he wants to be changed, and is willing. For example, over the last few months he's learned a great deal of empathy. I'm sorry, but I believe most Thais simply do not have much empathy, and will do whatever is in their best interest at that time, with total disregard for their fellow human. Empathy is a learned emotion, and I can proudly say, Kim now had a good deal of empathy in him. Before he does something, he now thinks about how his actions will affect others, which is great to see.


where wasthe empathy while driving?

"While everyone agrees that driving drunk is dangerous both for yourself and innocent people around you, I personally disagree with the way you deal with the issue ie: treating him like a kid (reads "like a father treats his son")
You can't really expect the reaction of a love partner, he will give back the average son-to-father reaction. I take the bike away because you've been a bad boy. What's up with that really? If a partner treated me like that I'd slap him senseless.

In a relationship there is always someone who is tougher than the other or richer than the other or wiser than the other but this shouldn't result in a domination-submission or worse a blackmailing.
And besides, the worst thing one can do is expecting people to change. People don't change, they grow wiser for sure, they learn, but they don't change.

Generally speaking, If you need to change someone to have a better relationship, you just need to change partner. Saves pain and wasting time."

I agree 100%. It sounds like you have a naughty child, not a boyfriend / lover. If that's what you're into, great, no problem; But don't complain when he acts like a willful spoiled child, YOU allowed and helped create that dynamic in your relationship. You'll get tired of raising him one day when he disappoints you one time too often and do the smart thing, find a relationship with an adult. Most relationship break apart when one person tries to control the other. You should each be whole and complete adult people in an of yourselves, You shouldn't need anyone to complete you, you should be partners in the relationship... if you want to control some thing, buy a puppy.

ajarntrade

It sounds like you have a naughty child, not a boyfriend / lover. If that's what you're into, great, no problem; But don't complain when he acts like a willful spoiled child, YOU allowed and helped create that dynamic in your relationship. You'll get tired of raising him one day when he disappoints you one time too often and do the smart thing, find a relationship with an adult. Most relationship break apart when one person tries to control the other. You should each be whole and complete adult people in an of yourselves, You shouldn't need anyone to complete you, you should be partners in the relationship... if you want to control some thing, buy a puppy.ajarntrade

Quite a bit of sense there, just how old are you two Matt, are you both in your twenties or is there a big age difference? Or is it just an educated westerner verses your average educated village Thai boy who has grown up around people who don't really think about tomorrow?

Generally speaking, If you need to change someone to have a better relationship, you just need to change partner.

For a second I thought you were going to say 'change yourself' but this is more amusing.

I've read enough of these stories to know that his reaction was standard. Disappear and come back however many days later, pretending that nothing happened. If you don't press the issue then it probably wouldn't even get discussed. Two Thais in a relationship can behave the same way. This is a case where finding out what is normal in a Thai relationship (when they have arguments) might be helpful.


like a father treats his son

How is this going to be avoidable if you're not dating a Thai at your social level (something that isn't likely)? Every social interaction is class conscious there.

This isn't an area that I have any experience but from the books I've read, I think the expectation of a peer relationship is a bit lofty if you have the typical relationship (where you are paying for everything). It's probably best just to learn how to be a 'good' parent. Can't say that I envy the situation cdnmatt is in but conflict occurs in all relationships, the Thai just do things different.

[Beachlover]

I'm sorry, but I believe most Thais simply do not have much empathy, and will do whatever is in their best interest at that time, with total disregard for their fellow human. Empathy is a learned emotion

Oh, I think that's either wrong or just very bad generalising. Thais can be very empathetic. I've been impressed by their empathy and considerate nature so many times... It's one of the things that attracts me to Thais.

I mean, I'm sure we've all being with Thais who were a bit clueless... but the same could be said for their farang counterparts. How many incidents and minor things have you seen happen with blundering farang?

Kim might lack empathy because he's young and hasn't grown up in the most loving and stable of surroundings.

It's all over now.

You've demonstrated that you do not see him as an equal partner in the relationship -- but as subservient. You have scolded him as a father would scold a son.

It won't last much longer, sorry to say. I don't care how much money you shower on him.

[Aunty]

After reading this thread, I feel like Madame Defarge, waiting for the axe to fall.

Partially agree Mlomker but there are correct and wrong ways to say and to do things. And there are fair and unfair strategies to achieve results.

More or less everyone has dated, casually or seriously, someone less wealthy but they way some wealthier people sometimes treat less wealthy people is simply disgusting.

A gift is a gift. Period. A gift SHOULD be a liberality that comes with no conditions attached. And "paid companionships" are not to be mistaken with a love relationship.



How is this going to be avoidable if you're not dating a Thai at your social level (something that isn't likely)? Every social interaction is class conscious there.

This isn't an area that I have any experience but from the books I've read, I think the expectation of a peer relationship is a bit lofty if you have the typical relationship (where you are paying for everything). It's probably best just to learn how to be a 'good' parent. Can't say that I envy the situation cdnmatt is in but conflict occurs in all relationships, the Thai just do things different.

[cdnmatt]

Why are people dragging culture and relgion into this? "Don't drive drunk, because I love you, and don't want to visit you in the ICU at the hospital" has absolutely nothing to do with Thai culture or Buddhism.


The mature thing to do would have been to have sat down, reminded him that he broke the agreement and then followed through and taken the motocy away (and dealt with the inevitable fallout) rather than play the "oops, lost the keys" game, and regardless of what it cost you re: the motocy.

You are right, that's what I should have done. Conversation should have been had while I took the keys, not after. Will try to remember for next time. Thanks!


So much of the culture there - and dealing with it - is about "face" and he lost face

Ohhh no, he didn't lose face. Don't worry, I'm quite sensitive to that. It's an unspoken rule that we never argue in public or in front of company. We always save the bitch fests for at home, in private. :-) You're right though, zero chance he'll tell his friends, "my farang BF took my keys away". Not sure what he told them today, but he just sat around and sulked. Good, and hope he remembers it for next time.


It's all over now.

You've demonstrated that you do not see him as an equal partner in the relationship -- but as subservient. You have scolded him as a father would scold a son.

I know what you mean, but you're wrong. I treat him like a king, and we both know it. That's why I'm allowed to put my foot down every once in a while like this, with basically no reprecussions on my end. And believe it or not, although he bitches about it, he wants boundaries like this. You have to remember his background. Parents divorced at 9, and sent off working out of town since he was 10, so he's never really had much in the way of boundaries. He actually craves this. Besides, you don't think husband & wives in the West don't go through the same motions?

I guess I was just pretty stupid and naive when I first entered this relationship, thinking it would be mutual. Now it's at the point where's it split as to whether I'm a big brother for him, or a lover. I'm sure many farangs on this board can empathize with that. He is a great guy though, has a huge heart, and great intellect.


Thais can be very empathetic. I've been impressed by their empathy and considerate nature so many times... It's one of the things that attracts me to Thais.

You talking about kindness or empathy? Two totally different things. I'll stick with what I said that, in general, Thais do not have empathy. They're not capable of putting themselves into someone else's shoes enough, to the point where it affects their decision making process. Empathy is a learned emotion, and in general, they're simply not taught it as children. As for kindness, then yeah, they have almost every country beat, hands down.


Generally speaking, If you need to change someone to have a better relationship, you just need to change partner. Saves pain and wasting time.

Zero chance of me leaving him. If I left him, how would I ever be able to sleep with myself at night? Again, he's an amazing guy, and there's zero chance we'll ever break up anytime soon. Granted, the thought of having my bachelor freedom back has tempted me at times, but there's no way I'd actually do that. I'm in this for the long haul.


Love is being stupid together

heh, you know? I actually agree with that. Depends on how you perceive life though, I guess. Life is about the journey, not the destination, right? Right now, I'm more than happy with the journey, although many may perceive it as stupid. :-)

[Bob]

I'll stick with what I said that, in general, Thais do not have empathy. They're not capable of putting themselves into someone else's shoes enough, to the point where it affects their decision making process. Empathy is a learned emotion, and in general, they're simply not taught it as children.

And where did you learn this? From extensive contacts with Thai bar boys?

Your attempt to somehow suggest that acts of kindness have nothing to do with empathy (the ability to understand the feelings or emotional state of another) is rather off the mark given those acts of kindness often stem from their ability to empathize in the first place. Empathy is a state of mind whereas kindness is action of some kind.

I've known (and know) several Thais who are quite empathetic and I see no rational basis to say Thais are in general are any more or less empathetic than other nationalities.

In the western world the only one, other than a parent, who takes away the car from a drunken driver is a cop not a partner/husband/wife etc

So what is gonna happen next? Kick him to the curb because he cooked some traditional smelly Thai dish in the kitchen of the house where you actually asked him to live with you?

To me the bottom line is..try to be honest with yourself and choose one of the two options:

1) your relationship with him is a "PAID COMPANIONSHIP": you pay, you demand. he obeys. nothing more nothing less. rules are clear and if not respected... NEXT
2) your relationship with him is a "real relationship": even though you have more money, you pay the bills and you buy him gifts you 2 are equal and your opinions are worth the same. and you don't take things away to get your decisions across.

[yedo111]

Not all thai boys drives around drunk on their bikes, maybe you just choose the wrong boy ?

Maybe you met him in a bar and his life is based on drinking , fast bikes and easy money.

The wages of love is misery.

I moved to Thailand exactly because there is absolutely no need to keep a live-in alter-ego around. There are so few long term arrangements that work out well that it is pointless to vainly hope that your own situation is the exception which is nothing more than willful ignorance in almost all cases.

There is an amazing amount of self-deception, self-victimization and illusion involved in what people call "love" which has never been defined to my satisfaction unless it was Paul Valery's comment "Love is being stupid together." If the truth be told, I think what most call "love" belongs in the category of psychopathology.
[X] Spot on!

TotalNewbie, setting limits is important, and no partner can be allowed to gamble away the assets of the other by drunk driving or shooting. Pacta sunt servanda.

You are tempted to import coconuts to Thailand? Don't even try to inform us on the connection between sex, love and money. Because we are the experts.

[X] Moralizing simpletons should consult Balzac's "Cousine Bette".

http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/6/3/2/3700173219236.jpg
A much more difficult case. Japan 2000, 217 minutes.

"Simply put, Eureka is a film not so much about dealing with trauma and the aftermath of tragedy, but rather about the re-discovery of life. That the film itself combines many genres (drama, slice-of-life comedy, road movie and thriller) is very appropriate for a piece whose central theme is the multi-faceted nature of life.

Add to this the beautiful visuals (the tinted black and white images are gorgeous in themselves but are greatly enhanced by wonderful composition and editing) and great performances by the entire cast, and you get a film that even at three and a half hours plus drags for not a minute. Eureka is a sterling piece of human cinema."

[kittyboy]

Why are people dragging culture and relgion into this? "Don't drive drunk, because I love you, and don't want to visit you in the ICU at the hospital" has absolutely nothing to do with Thai culture or Buddhism.

You talking about kindness or empathy? Two totally different things. I'll stick with what I said that, in general, Thais do not have empathy. They're not capable of putting themselves into someone else's shoes enough, to the point where it affects their decision making process. Empathy is a learned emotion, and in general, they're simply not taught it as children. As for kindness, then yeah, they have almost every country beat, hands down.


Zero chance of me leaving him. If I left him, how would I ever be able to sleep with myself at night? Again, he's an amazing guy, and there's zero chance we'll ever break up anytime soon. Granted, the thought of having my bachelor freedom back has tempted me at times, but there's no way I'd actually do that. I'm in this for the long haul.

heh, you know? I actually agree with that. Depends on how you perceive life though, I guess. Life is about the journey, not the destination, right? Right now, I'm more than happy with the journey, although many may perceive it as stupid. :-)

The distinction between sympathy and empathy: To call forth a concept, a word is needed.By Wisp├й, Lauren
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Vol 50(2), Feb 1986, 314-321.
Abstract
Discusses the ways in which the terms sympathy and empathy have been used in psychology and suggests that these terms (a) have different historical roots, (b) have been utilized in different research paradigms, and (c) have been involved in different kinds of theorizing. It is suggested that sympathy refers to the heightened awareness of another's plight as something to be alleviated, whereas empathy refers to the attempt of one self-aware self to understand the subjective experiences of another. It is argued that these are different psychological processes and that the differences between them should not be obfuscated. (98 ref) (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2009 APA, all rights reserved)

Abstract
Empathy is a topic of growing concern in a variety of disciplines. Although considerable empathy research is reported, often single dimensions of a multidimensional and multiphasic construct are actually being studied. Empathy is a unitary construct involving biopsychosocial components and is particularly well suited for nursing study because of its theoretical congruence with nursing philosophy and concerns. Empathy's importance goes beyond the usual emphasis on helper empathy. Although commonly associated with prosocial behavior, empathy involves underlying processes which may be used for either positive or negative social purposes. Recent technological improvements in research methodology, concerns regarding social violence, and conceptual shifts have led to greatly increased interest in the phenomenon of empathy and an expanded research thrust. One major recent change in empathy research is the tendency to view the phenomenon as multidimensional and consequently to include a variety of measures to capture different elements of the construct. This paper reviews the major approaches to measurement of empathy and classifies these approaches according to the dimensions of empathy that they measure. Physiological change in association with empathy is less frequently measured, but because empathy is commonly assumed to include an emotional response to another, concomitant physiological changes should accompany the emotional aspect of empathy and indicators of physiological response may be appropriate measures to include in nursing studies of empathy. A conceptualization of empathy is presented that considers empathy to be a multidimensional phenomenon, with emotional, cognitive, communicative, and relational components. Because empirical approaches can only examine the most easily measured aspects of empathy, phenomenological approaches are also needed to begin to capture the total construct.

Academics study everthing including empathy and sympathy.
Read the 2 abstracts I posted above and look up the articles themselves if you are interested.
You may not appreciate how a thai person experiences or reacts to their own empathy but to state that they have none is certainly wrong as empathy appear to be an innate trait that probably serves some evolutionary purpose.

[francois]

Did anyone understand all the double talk in that abstract? Bullshit would be a more accurate description.

[kittyboy]

Did anyone understand all the double talk in that abstract? Bullshit would be a more accurate description.

I found it very understandable. I guess that is why I am an acdemic or just academic.
Your understanding something is not the standard by which merit is judged.

I will interpret for those challenged by the language. The short story is that empathy is a multi-dimensional thing. It has sides and depth. It is probably both innate and a social construct.

So to say that someone or some particular culture lacks empathy is wrong as there is an innate portion to empathy.
Is that any better?

It's not really a matter of moralization. It's just my opinion and it's just a matter of consistency and awareness.

Coconuts were not invented in Thailand you know? As a famous beautiful song goes "same script, different cast". Thailand is just less expensive.
As I said before I studied and lived few years in Toronto. I've been casually dating 2 Canadian guys who starred porn movies and worked for what was back then the biggest porn website in the world which was based in downtorn Toronto. I met a huge share of Americans mainly but also people from all over the world who would fly to Toronto to meet the "models" most of which were gay-for-pay escorts.

And it was back then I realized that all too frequently, men are just too gullable. Straight, gay, no difference. A bit of pussy, an inch of cock and they will be hypnotized like a cobra. They will fool themselves into thinking there's love or a special friendship losing the grip with reality. Meanwhile, the other person in this relationship thinks "it's business".

So all I think is these paid companionships are and should stay an exchange for a service against cash, where you do set rigid rules because "customer is always right" and as I pointed in previous posts one should avoid these father-son affairs as well as being falsely generous.

If you are an expert you should agree one should be somewhat aloof and cynical but still without offending human dignity.






[X] Spot on!

TotalNewbie, setting limits is important, and no partner can be allowed to gamble away the assets of the other by drunk driving or shooting. Pacta sunt servanda.

You are tempted to import coconuts to Thailand? Don't even try to inform us on the connection between sex, love and money. Because we are the experts.[/quote]

[RichLB]

I've been with my bf now for 11 years and have put my foot down for the same reason - no driving while drunk! Like, Matt, I tried retaliation, pouting, and anger - all to no avail. What did work, once I stifled my disappointment with his "breaking the rules", was to sit down with him, explain why I felt as I did, and ask him for a solution. You can imagine how we waded through all the hackneyed denials (I was not that drunk, I know how to drive safe if I drink, you think too much, etc.). We finally arrived at the following solution. We agreed that if he had been drinking too much, he was NOT come home. He would leave his car where it was and either stay with friends (going by baht bus or motorcycle taxi) or get a hotel. I put 1000 baht in his wallet and explained that was only to be used for those times when he had been drinking (yes, I know, a risky thing to do, but he has not abused it) and to pay for a hotel. Initially I got him to promise he would phone me to let me know he was not returning, but that was a long time ago and that part of the agreement no longer applies. At first I would "check up" to make sure the car was where he said it was. Luckily, it always was and I gave up being a spy.

Anyway, that worked for us. I think the reason was that it was developed as a mutual solution and not imposed from "on high". By the way, that 1000 baht is still tucked into a compartment in his wallet.

[RichLB]

Did anyone understand all the double talk in that abstract? Bullshit would be a more accurate description.
Laughing. I taught in the field of Human Relations before retiring and I sure didn't understand it. I think an easier to understand distinction is:
Sympathy is the ability to understand and accept the feelings of another. (An intellectual exercise)
Emapthy is the ability to experience another's feelings as if they were your own. (An emotional exercise)

And, I disagree that Thais do not experience empathy. They may cloak their expression of their inner life (and therefore their feelings) different from those of us in the West, but this does not mean they don't have the same feelings.

[Beachlover]

I found it very understandable. I guess that is why I am an acdemic or just academic.

I can't be arsed to understand it and think it should be summarised... which you have now done.


Your understanding something is not the standard by which merit is judged.

No, but articulating it concisely is important.

[Beachlover]

Sympathy is the ability to understand and accept the feelings of another. (An intellectual exercise)
Emapthy is the ability to experience another's feelings as if they were your own. (An emotional exercise)

That's a more practical definition.

To me, empathy is simply being aware and intuitive of other people's feelings, motivations, fears and concerns when you're dealing with them.

Part of it is feeling out what their priorities and mood (e.g. happy... worried... pissed off) are right now .... The other part is predicting in advance what someone is likely to be looking for or concerned about.

Being aware of this allows you to better uplift them, satisfy them, avoid things that might lead to negative feelings with them and generally influence and get along with them better.

[kittyboy]

I found it very understandable. I guess that is why I am an acdemic or just academic.

I can't be arsed to understand it and think it should be summarised... which you have now done.


Your understanding something is not the standard by which merit is judged.

No, but articulating it concisely is important.

Very true. I do tend to have my head in the clouds.
The original point I was trying to make was that to state that thai people or any other culture has less empathy is a silly notion.

Back to the original posters point..He may be having trouble with his boyfriend and not understand why the bf acts in a particular way...that sounds like a plain old misunderstanding rooted in differences in culture and age. IMHO

But see my opinion on opinions.

[Beachlover]

Yeah, I agree. I think it might be a case of individuals being deficient in empathy... not the entire culture of Thai people.

As they saying goes "No two people think alike"

[Beachlover]

No but there's a cluster of handles on this board who think and write remarkably alike... bunch of inbreds... lol

[Thai Dyed]

Some philosophical advice might be useful for our poor perpetually beleaguered Matt:

"I see it all perfectly; there are two possible situations - one can either do this or that. My honest opinion and my friendly advice is this: do it or do not do it - you will regret both." - S├╕ren Kierkegaard

No but there's a cluster of handles on this board who think and write remarkably alike... bunch of inbreds... lol

Big difference with those you are refering to Beachlover is that they don't have the ability to 'think' and one in particular can not write either!

[cdnmatt]

4:30am right now, he went out with some friends earlier, and haven't seen or heard from him. Now I'm at the worried stage. Cell is off. Called the local hospitals, and although my Thai is far from good, if I comprehended everything correctly, he hasn't been admitted. Hopefully he's just cheating on me, or better yet, sleeping off a drunken stupor at a friend's place. This is very unlike him though.

And as my mom would play, while one of us kids were being jackasses back in the day, which we were well known for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFp2WRjYC1M

What an ass, making me worry like this. Next time I see him he's either getting a huge hug, or a kick in the head, all depending on the circumstances. I hope he's ok though. I don't know what else to do, except wait. No chance of me sleeping tonight though, that's for sure.

http://www.headinjurytheater.com/McDowell%20Bunny%20low%20qual.jpg
Kim: "What an ass, making me worry like this!"

[catawampuscat]

A picture says a thousand words..
Of course, not my original thought, but stop has added a new dimension to the forum..

I think a lesson that can be taken from this thread is not to open up with your private affairs on the world wide web unless you have very thick skin..
:happy7:

[X] I have not the slightest doubt that cdnmatt knows very well how much we ENJOY his everlasting SAGA.

[Beachlover]

Yes, it's as riveting as watching the protests lol.

It's the gay version of Jerry Springer hehe.

Ok well seriously, I hope Kim comes home and is ok.

You may be worried sick over it but I think he just needs his freedom and space... Doesn't want to be told what he can and can't do like a kid. So he is testing the boundaries looking for them on purpose.

"Can't sleep, waiting for him to re-appear" ... sounds familiar to me as I have been through similar relationships with Thai boys during the past 12 years. Recently met my first ex-bf for the first time since we parted six years ago. He has matured to the point where he is now the type of serious, reliable, goal- oriented person I was looking for long ago. Too late for us to re-start, but it does convince me that trying to re-make, re-form a boy around 20 yo is a fruitless endeavor. Just have to leave him or be willing to stay with him for five more years and then see how/if he develops.

Choke dee, Matt. Hope you'll have better luck than I did dealing with a boy like Kim.

[catawampuscat]

keep your expectations low and you won't be disappointed.. :headbang:

you can have the times of your life and more fun, sex, and joy that you ever imagined
but to believe the boy loves you and that Thais find men older than their grandfathers
to be sexy men, is just a pipe dream..(an opium pipe/yaabaa pipe dream)

No money, no honey as the T-shirts say..

ahhhhh at last some honesty and awareness!
thank you!


keep your expectations low and you won't be disappointed.. :headbang:

you can have the times of your life and more fun, sex, and joy that you ever imagined
but to believe the boy loves you and that Thais find men older than their grandfathers
to be sexy men, is just a pipe dream..(an opium pipe/yaabaa pipe dream)

No money, no honey as the T-shirts say..

and that Thais find men older than their grandfathers
to be sexy men, is just a pipe dream..(an opium pipe/yaabaa pipe dream)
[X] GRANDFATHERS? There are definitely THAIS of both sexes who find men attractive who are older than their FATHERS.

...trust me, he's not going to defy me unless I give him the go ahead.
He already has, by doing what you told him not to. As usual, you're in denial - nothing's changed.

[giggsy]

ahhhhh at last some honesty and awareness!
thank you!


keep your expectations low and you won't be disappointed.. :headbang:

you can have the times of your life and more fun, sex, and joy that you ever imagined
but to believe the boy loves you and that Thais find men older than their grandfathers
to be sexy men, is just a pipe dream..(an opium pipe/yaabaa pipe dream)

No money, no honey as the T-shirts say..

I think 95% of the posters are fully aware of what cat says is true but it is so obvious we don't post it.
Matt when Kim finally comes back try to keep him busy with, can I suggest sending him down to the laundrette with some washing. That way it will not be only you he is taking to the cleaners.

[chillnorth]

The continuing saga of Matt and Kim are currently ahead of the tales of Leo and Mr. Rice Queen Diary in my book, but I confess that I check for updates on each of them before reading the political news of the day. They certainly beat anything on television.

[Thai Dyed]

The continuing saga of Matt and Kim are currently ahead of the tales of Leo and Mr. Rice Queen Diary in my book, but I confess that I check for updates on each of them before reading the political news of the day. They certainly beat anything on television.

Hey, RQ just had a cool day at the amusement park with Leo and Princess while Matt has been poking around all the morgues. I think the rides at the park beat the rides with Kim drunk on his motocy hands down!
[attachment=0:1ae5g22i]Matt checking at the morgue.jpg[/attachment:1ae5g22i]

[catawampuscat]

silly boy, we are all rice queens... :love4:
Leo has made clear he enjoys variety, including Arabs.
After seeing the 'Cadinot' films of younger Arabs, I can
see why Morocco and Tunisia were so popular..

Also, I believe we are crossing the line with Matt and
have reached the point of overkill.. :idea:

"We are all rice queens"???

Speak for yourself.

[catawampuscat]

I think a poll is in order..

Are you a rice queen?
Just give me potatoes?
I like dark meat?
Only blowjobs in Bang Na toilets by old farangs?

Oh, I am sure someone clever can put together a poll.. It would be a nice diversion
from the all too serious state of things in Thailand at the moment.. :bounce:

I'm an omnivore. As long as it's handsome.

i have no idea what a rice queen is *blush*

[Bob]

i have no idea what a rice queen is *blush*

You're living up to your moniker. Okay, have you ever heard of "google?"

if these are your conversation skills what do u answer when someone asks for directions? ever heard of google maps?!!



i have no idea what a rice queen is *blush*

You're living up to your moniker. Okay, have you ever heard of "google?"

[bao-bao]

Total Newbie -- Some from where I grew up, anyway...
Undoubtedly with multiple regional interpretations and variations:
Rice Queen = Gays primarily attracted to Asians
Sticky Rice = Gay Asians primarily attracted to other Asians
Potato Queen = Gays primarily attracted to Caucasians
Bean Queen = Gays primarily attracted to Latino/Hispanic
Dairy Queen/Snow Queen = Gay African-Americans primarily attracted to Caucasians/lighter skinned
Chocolate Queen = Gay Caucasians primarily attracted to African-Americans
Size Queen = 98% of all of the above combined :cheers:

Thanks bao-bao
so the accent isn't necessarily on the word "queen" but more on the ethnicity?

I guess I'm missing from the list.. let's make it up: Burqa Queen: Gay caucasian who are primarily attracted to Arabs



Total Newbie -- Some from where I grew up, anyway...
Undoubtedly with multiple regional interpretations and variations:
Rice Queen = Gays primarily attracted to Asians
Sticky Rice = Gay Asians primarily attracted to other Asians
Potato Queen = Gays primarily attracted to Caucasians
Bean Queen = Gays primarily attracted to Latino/Hispanic
Dairy Queen/Snow Queen = Gay African-Americans primarily attracted to Caucasians/lighter skinned
Chocolate Queen = Gay Caucasians primarily attracted to African-Americans

[catawampuscat]

I was thinking maybe
1- sand queen
2-desert queen
3-camel queen

Kapsa Queen

Kapsa being a popular Arabic rice dish

lol or Sphynxter Queen


I was thinking maybe
1- sand queen
2-desert queen
3-camel queen

"Sphynxter Queen"

Yours or theirs?? LOL

[chillnorth]

Have to go with Burqa Queen...."Have it your way."

I personally have made a life list and checked it thrice. Have never fucked a penguin (not Catholic, so I don't mean that kind; a priest is another story but we were both of age so no allegations to be made), but have covered the waterfront on every other continent. I have a special seat at the United Nations... with a very soft cushion. Still prefer to "listen to the wind when the rice blows off the water".

HOWEVER, my intention was neither to hijack the thread from Matt nor to show anything but real interest in how things are going. I'm fascinated by the progress of two Thai-farang relationships with somewhat different contrasts in ages and how they evolve.

Come on, Matt. Not everyone is reading this to make fun of you. I didn't mean the thread to change its name to "How to piss off a Canadian guy..."

When did he come home? What happened next?

Pita Poofter.

[Beachlover]

Did he get his motorbike back?

[chillnorth]

Sigh. Guess we'll never know. Maybe they went to high ground or underground. I'd like to think they got the Lisbon plane, leaving behind only a cute little statue with the number 17 on his whities, a set of motorcycle keys, and a crushed note scribbled hurriedly in Thai.

You can tell this curfew thing is getting to me. No offense intended, Matt. Hope you both stayed out of harm's way, whether together or separately. Love sucks, at least if you arange it properly.

[Thai Dyed]

Sigh. Guess we'll never know. Maybe they went to high ground or underground. I'd like to think they got the Lisbon plane, leaving behind only a cute little statue with the number 17 on his whities, a set of motorcycle keys, and a crushed note scribbled hurriedly in Thai.
...No offense intended, Matt. Hope you both stayed out of harm's way, whether together or separately. Love sucks, at least if you arange it properly.

Matt would have done well to settle for the cute little statue with the number 17 on his whities.
But Matt has already told us that his boy friend Kim was very temperamental and even went so far as to suggest he might castrate him, or worse, if he ever thought Matt was getting too familiar with another boy. Who knows what kind of frenzy he might be driven to over losing his motocy?
The case for a cute statue gets stronger by the minute!
[attachment=0:xotz2gus]New love for Matt.jpg[/attachment:xotz2gus]

[Beachlover]

You're one of those farangs who's completely lost touch with social norms, courtesy and decency aren't you, Thai Dyed?

[Thai Dyed]

You're one of those farangs who's completely lost touch with social norms, courtesy and decency aren't you, Thai Dyed?

If the truth be told Beachlover, I think those qualities more aptly describe Matt's boyfriend Kim.

[attachment=0:1x28jcnt]inflatable-turkey.jpg[/attachment:1x28jcnt]

........I personally have never fucked a penguin (not Catholic, so I don't mean that kind; a priest is another story but we were both of age so no allegations to be made...


Let me get this straight - you fucked a Priest out of CHOICE?

Abuse would be bad enough but doing it out of choice is something far more perverse.

:laughing3: :laughing3:

[Thai Dyed]

........I personally have never fucked a penguin (not Catholic, so I don't mean that kind; a priest is another story but we were both of age so no allegations to be made...


Let me get this straight - you fucked a Priest out of CHOICE?

Abuse would be bad enough but doing it out of choice is something far more perverse.


тАЬA perverse sexual act can liberate the visionary self in even the dullest soulтАЭ J. G. Ballard, 2001

Spencer says: The disdain with which the Marquis acted towards society puts him in a rather interesting class of figure a kin to Voltaire. He wrought his satire upon the world in action, resorting to literature out of desperation. He is not pioneer of perversion, more than he was itтАЩs mouth piece. If the Revolution was the climax of the age of reason, the bloody birthing of modernity, the Marquis is the unflinching eye with which that babe gazes upon the venal mark of the world in which it is brought. He should be neither demonized, nor celebrated, remembered yes, but his life can not be likened to that of a man who enjoys the perversions he indulges. If he had any virtue to speak of it was that he did not create the world, only recorded it.

http://t.douban.com/lpic/s1993261.jpg
"... completely lost touch with social norms ..."

lola says: he is sick, true but dammit! he is fucking fascinating. That is what happens when you dig deeper and deeper into the twisted minds (yes, you know its true) of man. Ever heard of curiosity killed the cat? He certainly hadnтАЩt. You have to be lying if you are not disgusted yet so fascinated by his dark twisted writings and way of life. i have to say he had such guts to live out all his fantasies cause at the end of the day, we all have something dark, twisted fantasies inside of us. He just had the wealth, time and guts to live it out. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade

[X] Gilles De Rais beats the Maquis De Sade into a cocked hat anyway.

:evil4:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Members_of_the_Maquis_in_La_Tresorerie.jpg
[X] Maquis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_%28World_War_II%29

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/Members_of_the_Maquis_in_La_Tresorerie.jpg
[X] Maquis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquis_%28World_War_II%29



[X]"leesten verry carefullee - I will say thees only wance....."

[chillnorth]

Let me get this straight - you fucked a Priest out of CHOICE?

Abuse would be bad enough but doing it out of choice is something far more perverse.

:laughing3: :laughing3:

This particular priest was in his twenties trying to find himself at one of those Seventies (non-religious) "spiritual retreats" where everyone was screwing someone when they weren't sneaking hits on a bong. I didn't know his profession (vocation?) until after the deed; he was out of costume and dressed a lot like our cute little friend # 17 when we met, although his whities did come off, rather quickly. As I recall, he didn't stay a priest very long afterwards, though I surely wasn't that good. I just assume it was God's will.

.... As I recall, he didn't stay a priest very long afterwards, though I surely wasn't that good..

OMG he didn't become a NUN did he?

:occasion9:

[chillnorth]

[

OMG he didn't become a NUN did he?

:occasion9:

Not unless he made the final cut. I last spotted him at Telephone discussing a deal to buy into a bar beer somewhere in Pattaya. He was past his shelf date and I was approaching mine, so I just moved on to my massage appt with eyes averted.

If you read this, Matt, thanks for the memories.

"Not with a bang but a whimper."