Oh God, when the protest going to be over ?

I want to go to Bangkok since April but can not do so because of the protestor, I will be trying to go again in July and hope that everything will be normal once again. How most of you in Bangkok doing so far ? Hope you guy have a good time there.

[Beachlover]

Hard to say. In the meantime, just stick to using your hand LOL (sorry... bad one I know).

You could use the time to build muscle!





[attachment=0:1fajd2mq]how-to-spot-a-single-guy.jpg[/attachment:1fajd2mq]

[cdnmatt]

I propose to get the US military involved. Get PHYOPS (sp) in there, and within a week all the peaceful protesters should be gone (women, children, etc.). From there, just arrest the rest of the blood thirsty hard core guys military style. I used to sympathize with the red shirts plight, but at this point, fuck 'em. They've proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that they don't care one iota about democracy, civil liberties, freedom of speech, their fellow human, nothing.

So fuck 'em. Get the peaceful out of there, and take care of the rest with force. If they decide it's a good idea to setup blockades, search vehicles, and storm hospitals, then don't bitch when they themselves get stormed. Treat people how you want to be treated.

[Beachlover]

You have either been drinking or are really pissed off aren't you? lol.

You could say the same thing about the yellow shirt protesters after what they did with the airports last year. I don't know, which side is worse. I'm sure from their own perspectives, though, they each think they have a compelling enough reason to cause this much havoc. To them... it's like a do or die thing... they believe they have to make this happen no matter what.

Really, it's ridiculous this country doesn't have a stable and democratically elected government.

I'm curious and haven't been following this all closely so...

- Who exactly are the "no shirt" protesters? Are they just general citizens of Bangkok who don't support either side but are sick of all the protests?

- How is Abhisit able to get away with or justify not calling a democratic election? How does he justify delaying it for 9 months or whatever he wants it to be?

[cdnmatt]

You have either been drinking or are really pissed off aren't you? lol.

Nah, it's just that it's starting to be a little concerning now. The red shirts seem to be doing whatever the hell they please, with almost no reprecussions, because the current government doesn't seem capable of enforcing the law. Abhisit will usually show up on TV every day or two, apologize for the red shirts latest stunt, and say the government is working on it. That's it though, and no actual action.

You know, private citizens can't just go around the country setting up checkpoints along roads, searching & seizing vehicles as they see fit, storming TV networks and hospitals, lobbing some grenades every once in a while, etc. Scary part is, they're allowed to get away with it all.

For example, a few days ago, a leader with an opposing view point flew into Khon Kaen, and what happened? Red shirts setup a checkpoint on the exit road of the airport, and began searching every vehicle. The other guy turned around, and went straight back to Bangkok. No mention of police coming out to stop private citizens from setting up a checkpoint or anything, and they were just allowed to go ahead with it.

Or they go storm a hospital, which you simply don't do. Even during war times, both sides generally leave the others' hospitals alone. But oh no, not the red shirts. Then they have the gall to go on stage, and preach about how peaceful they are, and how they "just want democracy". Fuck that, they hardly "just want democracy".

You have to remember, it was only a simple 35 years ago that Pol Pot was in power a few hundred kms down the road, and we all know how that turned out. Pol Pot is a major (the largest?) factor as to why Cambodia is still currently an economic shit hole. He was just a poor villager battling against the elitists too, and unfortunately, the red shirts have given some strong indications that they wouldn't mind having authoritarian rule as well. I don't know, time will tell. Let's hope the current government can get their act together, and begin enforcing the laws.


Who exactly are the "no shirt" protesters? Are they just general citizens of Bangkok who don't support either side but are sick of all the protests?

Yep. Just people who are pissed off. No allegiance to either, Abhisit or Thaksin. They just want to live their lives in peace, and the red shirts are fucking that up for them, so they're pissed off.


How is Abhisit able to get away with or justify not calling a democratic election? How does he justify delaying it for 9 months or whatever he wants it to be?

Legally, according to the current constitution, Abhisit is allowed to remain in power until Dec 2011. He tried to compromised with the red shirts, and said he's willing to bring the election time frame down to 9 months. That wasn't good enough for the red shirts though, because they want elections within 15 days, damnit! Idiots...

That wasn't good enough for the red shirts though, because they want elections within 15 days, damnit! Idiots...

You can't select candidates, have debates, and have the populace vote in that sort of timeframe. 9 months didn't seem that unreasonable to me.

I don't know enough about politics to take a side but you don't have to to know that this demand is logistically impossible.

[Beachlover]

Ah, thanks for the explanation cdnmatt. I'm sure it ain't perfect but it's helpful.

Yep, storming the hospital was an incredibly bad moment of judgement and one they are paying dearly for. An article today compared them to the Japanese occupiers saying, even the Japanese left the hospital alone.


the current government doesn't seem capable of enforcing the law. Abhisit will usually show up on TV every day or two, apologize for the red shirts latest stunt, and say the government is working on it. That's it though, and no actual action.

There might be a reason for this... Consider their options:

If the government "does something" it's probably going to lead to loss of life or even something many times worse. Who knows what it would take for it to escalate into all out civil war, rebellion and insurgency? In the end, this is probably better for the reds.

But if the government makes a strategic decision to hold fire, it leaves the reds in a precarious situation.

For every day they inconvenience everyone with their antics, sympathy and tolerance for them drops lower and lower. Eventually, it may not even take the government to get rid of the reds. Others may be pissed off enough to do it themselves. And if the government does decide to go in then it will be much easier as public tolerance for casualties and violence will be much higher... Just look how pissed off you're getting at the reds yourself.

I think one reason the reds want an election in 15 days is if they accept a promise to hold elections in 9 months... they have to "demobilise" their mob now... and if that promise is then broken... it will be a pain in the arse to re-mobilise the red mob and the government will be better prepared.

[Hmmm]

Geez, I thought you guys read more widely than those guys over at that personal blog masquerading as a forum, where anything in the Nation, the Bangkok Post or on TV is assumed to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

I'm not saying that I'm a red shirt supporter, but there are two sides to these stories, one of which will never see the light of day in Thailand.

Try ....
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandal ... red-germs/ (http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/05/03/thongchai-winichakul-on-the-red-germs/)
http://www.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-pundit-blog


The red shirts seem to be doing whatever the hell they please, with almost no reprecussions, because the current government doesn't seem capable of enforcing the law.

That's most likely because it's the army / police who have to enforce the law, and considerable numbers of them side with the red shirts.



You know, private citizens can't just go around the country setting up checkpoints along roads, searching & seizing vehicles as they see fit, storming TV networks and hospitals, lobbing some grenades every once in a while, etc. Scary part is, they're allowed to get away with it all.


As opposed to 'democratic' governments, who control free speech by shutting down TV and radio stations, web sites, and throw people in jail for 18 years for making obtuse references to HMK, etc.



Or they go storm a hospital, which you simply don't do. Even during war times, both sides generally leave the others' hospitals alone. But oh no, not the red shirts. Then they have the gall to go on stage, and preach about how peaceful they are, and how they "just want democracy". Fuck that, they hardly "just want democracy".


Firstly, I have heard almost a dozen different versions of what actually happened. And the red shirts did admit this was a mistake, by rogue elements.

And it's not just any hospital. The hospital where doctors refused to treat police and soldiers injured in clashes with the PAD yellow shirts. The hospital with a doctor amongst prominent yellow shirt spokesmen. The hospital from whose 5th floor some witnesses reported the grenades fired at Sala Daeng to have come.

Strategically, Chula is exactly where you'd hide troops.



You have to remember, it was only a simple 35 years ago that Pol Pot was in power a few hundred kms down the road, and we all know how that turned out.


Now you've really lost it.




Who exactly are the "no shirt" protesters? Are they just general citizens of Bangkok who don't support either side but are sick of all the protests?

Yep. Just people who are pissed off. No allegiance to either, Abhisit or Thaksin. They just want to live their lives in peace, and the red shirts are fucking that up for them, so they're pissed off.


Most likely they're yellow shirts. They're certainly as well organized as the red shirts. Notice how they all wave the same identical Thai flag ?


How is Abhisit able to get away with or justify not calling a democratic election? How does he justify delaying it for 9 months or whatever he wants it to be?

Because he knows he'd lose - after all he didn't win one to get into power. And probably because he's been told he's not 'allowed' to have an election.

[Beachlover]

Thanks for the insight/opinion Hmmm.

I know it's a complex situation... I know a little about it on the surface but can't be arsed digging deeper to learn more about it. More fun seeing cdnmatt get worked up here :blackeye:

Ah well... I just hope this particular blow up ends in a sustainable state (i.e. not like the last time where we all knew it was going to blow up again at some point)... or at the very least, calms down enough to make Bangkok peaceful and trouble-free again.

The hospital from whose 5th floor some witnesses reported the grenades fired at Sala Daeng to have come.


Whether the Sala Daeng station grenades came from military officers hiding behind the Rama 6 statue, the fifth floor of Chula hospital, the higher buildings surrounding the station, or a red shirt running along one of the pedestrian overpasses, nothing like the bombings would have happened if the red shirts didn't occupy Lumpini Park in their illegal "peaceful" protest of civil disruption including their threat to extend to Silom what they did at Rajaprasong. If you can't control your demonstrators then you really shouldn't be having a demonstration, don't you think?. This one hits home to Thais much more than the airport takeover. Thousands are out of work. Traffic and transportation are disrupted. Schools and hospitals are disrupted. Innocent sky train patrons died or were injured. Businesses throughout Thailand are hurting due to the tourist downturn. Thai Red Shirt leader's "nothing to lose" gamble to force early elections is wrong, would exacerbate a volatile situation, and is causing a lot of trouble. Thais/police are basically non-confrontational, often backing away, the government is tied up in having to do everything "by the book". No one wants to deny their right to peaceful protest but purposeful civil disruption is not peaceful protest. It endangers both Thais and foreigners and the effect is worldwide, not just against a bunch of luxury shopping malls in Bangkok. If it is not illegal then it has to be made illegal, as international terrorism.

Abbisit's government is legitimate coming from normal parliamentary procedures. Most constitutions have provisions for transfer of government authority under various conditions. Elections are already deemed for 2011. Abissit the opportunist? Who else involved in Thai politics is known as an opportunist? The Red Shirt leader should have accepted Abbisit's offer of nine months at his weakest moment that first Sunday night, but he got an SMS from "the boss" telling him not to. Now he's thought about how bad an idea that any early dissolution is. They want too much and it's time to back off.

George Bush cheated on both his elections. Does anyone deny his presidency was not legitimate?

[TrongpaiExpat]

George Bush cheated on both his elections. Does anyone deny his presidency was not legitimate?

A better example might be Gerald Ford who became the president but was never elected as the president or vice president. He came to office on a set of unusual circumstances and was empowered by the Constitution. Things in Thailand have been quite unusual since 1932.

[cdnmatt]

As opposed to 'democratic' governments, who control free speech by shutting down TV and radio stations, web sites, and throw people in jail for 18 years for making obtuse references to HMK, etc.

That's because they broke the law, by inciting violence via their TV station while Bangkok was under a state of emergency. That's what happens when you decide storming parliament is a good idea.


Firstly, I have heard almost a dozen different versions of what actually happened. And the red shirts did admit this was a mistake, by rogue elements.

And it's not just any hospital. The hospital where doctors refused to treat police and soldiers injured in clashes with the PAD yellow shirts. The hospital with a doctor amongst prominent yellow shirt spokesmen. The hospital from whose 5th floor some witnesses reported the grenades fired at Sala Daeng to have come.

Strategically, Chula is exactly where you'd hide troops.

It's not like five of them just went in to peacefully look around. They stormed a hospital, and there's no excuse for that. Pretty simple and straight forward.





You have to remember, it was only a simple 35 years ago that Pol Pot was in power a few hundred kms down the road, and we all know how that turned out.


Now you've really lost it.[/quote]

Probably, but you never know. Their the ones who have proven with their actions they believe they're above the law, are more than willing to use fear & intimidation to control, and will happily squelsh and opposing view points. That doesn't sound like people I want running the country.


Most likely they're yellow shirts. They're certainly as well organized as the red shirts. Notice how they all wave the same identical Thai flag ?

Yes, they're waving a Thai flag because their Thai, and it's the same size & style because they come cheap when you buy in bulk from sweat shops.


Because he knows he'd lose - after all he didn't win one to get into power. And probably because he's been told he's not 'allowed' to have an election.

He's now publicly called an election on Nov 14th, which is more than reasonable, and I'd say a pretty large olive branch offered by Abhisit. Let's see if the red shirt leaders accept. I bet there's a chance they won't though, because there's no amnesty for the leaders in the deal. If they accept the deal, they'll be arrested & prosecuted. Time will tell.

[ceejay]

That doesn't sound like people I want running the country.
I think one of the few things all Thais of whatever political persuasion are probably agreed on is that they do not give a toss for what any foreigner thinks about who should be running their country.


He was just a poor villager battling against the elitists too,
Actually, Pol Pot came from a quite wealthy Chinese/Khmer family, with links to the Khmer Royal Family. He was educated (unsuccessfully) in France. Never trust a member of the relatively privileged middle class who mans the barricades on behalf of the proles - Lenin and Robespierre spring to mind.

[Beachlover]

Pol Pot came from a quite wealthy Chinese/Khmer family

I can't believe after that he did, he was still able to die peacefully and naturally in quiet surroundings...

Maybe the best thing to do is to pray for their safety that this kind protest will soon be going to be over.

As opposed to 'democratic' governments, who control free speech by shutting down TV and radio stations, web sites, and throw people in jail for 18 years for making obtuse references to HMK, etc.

That's because they broke the law, by inciting violence via their TV station while Bangkok was under a state of emergency. That's what happens when you decide storming parliament is a good idea.


Firstly, I have heard almost a dozen different versions of what actually happened. And the red shirts did admit this was a mistake, by rogue elements.

And it's not just any hospital. The hospital where doctors refused to treat police and soldiers injured in clashes with the PAD yellow shirts. The hospital with a doctor amongst prominent yellow shirt spokesmen. The hospital from whose 5th floor some witnesses reported the grenades fired at Sala Daeng to have come.

Strategically, Chula is exactly where you'd hide troops.

It's not like five of them just went in to peacefully look around. They stormed a hospital, and there's no excuse for that. Pretty simple and straight forward.





You have to remember, it was only a simple 35 years ago that Pol Pot was in power a few hundred kms down the road, and we all know how that turned out.


Now you've really lost it.

Probably, but you never know. Their the ones who have proven with their actions they believe they're above the law, are more than willing to use fear & intimidation to control, and will happily squelsh and opposing view points. That doesn't sound like people I want running the country.


Most likely they're yellow shirts. They're certainly as well organized as the red shirts. Notice how they all wave the same identical Thai flag ?

Yes, they're waving a Thai flag because their Thai, and it's the same size & style because they come cheap when you buy in bulk from sweat shops.


Because he knows he'd lose - after all he didn't win one to get into power. And probably because he's been told he's not 'allowed' to have an election.

He's now publicly called an election on Nov 14th, which is more than reasonable, and I'd say a pretty large olive branch offered by Abhisit. Let's see if the red shirt leaders accept. I bet there's a chance they won't though, because there's no amnesty for the leaders in the deal. If they accept the deal, they'll be arrested & prosecuted. Time will tell.[/quote]

Interesting that they have said they don't want an amnesty.

[cdnmatt]

Interesting that they have said they don't want an amnesty.

Yeah, I was a bit taken back by that myself. Not sure, time will tell. My best guess is, they believe this is far from over, and the speeches tonight were just smoke & mirrors. Some of these guys are facing maximum 20 year prison sentences, so I have a hard time believing they'll just give themselves up, especially considering none of their stated or non-stated goals have been met. Not to mention, the reasons for not accepting the government's proposal were pretty stupid. Besides, if they accepted, what would all the peaceful, unarmed red shirt protesters do with the tons of weapons currently stashed at the protest site?

It's made the government look harder at the problem of social & economic inequality, which is great, but they still didn't reach their goals. Who knows, I (obviously) like my current affairs though, so time will tell.

[krobbie]

I arrive in BKK Friday May 7 and am heartened by reports that the Red Shirts (now wearing mufti) will probably accept the Road Map which PM Abhisit put forward yesterday offering full elections in November (14).

I feel that after the debacle of last Thursday with the invasion of the hospital many Reds where just looking for a reason to go home. I think many of the Red Shirts were disillusioned with their "leaders" and the "leaders" now recognize it is time to take stock and take the PM's offer as things are just not going to get any better for them.

Let us hope that this is an end to the now unlawful siege and the vendors and small businesses can get back to making a few baht.

I hope they get the top of Silom intersection cleaned, cleared and squared away by Sunday, as I have a dinner date with a fellow poster to attend.

Cheers
Krobbie

[thrillbill]

A couple comments First, the department of education needs to teach the future voters of Thailand about how their government is set up -- a civic class teaching them about their responsbility as voters (that freedome of speech is more than "taking bribes" when voting or taking over airports and business centers.

Next, what the Yellow Party did was wrong also..but they were protesting to get rid of the crook, "Mr. T" and I do not recall any one being killed in the protests or as much violence.

[Beachlover]

Interesting that they have said they don't want an amnesty.

Yeah, I was a bit taken back by that myself. Not sure, time will tell. My best guess is, they believe this is far from over, and the speeches tonight were just smoke & mirrors. Some of these guys are facing maximum 20 year prison sentences, so I have a hard time believing they'll just give themselves up, especially considering none of their stated or non-stated goals have been met. Not to mention, the reasons for not accepting the government's proposal were pretty stupid. Besides, if they accepted, what would all the peaceful, unarmed red shirt protesters do with the tons of weapons currently stashed at the protest site?

It's made the government look harder at the problem of social & economic inequality, which is great, but they still didn't reach their goals. Who knows, I (obviously) like my current affairs though, so time will tell.

http://www.news.com.au/world/two-dead-i ... 5863997829 (http://www.news.com.au/world/two-dead-in-bangkok-protests/story-e6frfl00-1225863997829)

Maybe they (red shirt leaders) are still looking after themselves afterall...

http://www.news.com.au/world/two-dead-i ... 5863997829 (http://www.news.com.au/world/two-dead-in-bangkok-protests/story-e6frfl00-1225863997829)

-----

"Two policemen have been killed in these incidents. I think that someone doesn't want the protests to end,'' said police operations centre spokesman Major General Prawut Thavornsiri.

------

Maybe the red shirt leaders feigned to one side (agreeing to Abhisit's plan and giving up the protest) to carry out their other intentions (the ones we really expect them to have) in a less direct way...