What do you do at the temples?

[cdnmatt]

I'm sure many of us here end up at a temple from time to time. I'm curious, as a farang (who I'm assuming doesn't understand Buddhism), how do you conduct yourself? Do you actually partake in the motions? Kneel down before the statue, pickup the little golden elephant, do your three bows, shake your incense, meditate for a bit, three bows again, pick the elephant again, etc... Or what do you guys do?

I find myself going to the temple two or three times a week nowadays, and generally just wander around like and idiot, while I look at the walls and ceiling as if they're absolutely fascinating. Kim loves going, but won't go by himself, mama's not around, and I want him going, so I go with him. Kim keeps prodding me to partake with him, but I don't feel comfortable doing so, as I feel it's somewhat disrespectful. You know, if I understood the underlying beliefs of Buddhism, and understood why I'm doing what I'm doing, then it'd be fine. But I don't, and don't particularly have any ambition to learn, so I just don't feel right in partaking with him.

I'm happy that he goes, feels fulfilled afterwards, and that's enough for me. I'm more than content with the Canadians beliefs and world-view I was brought up with, and have no need to learn Buddhism. I know the majority of Thais could care less if I partook with Kim's meditation, and wouldn't think anything of it, but I don't care. I'll stick with the empathetic and compassionate beliefs I was raised with. I think me participating is somewhat disrespectful to Buddhism as a whole, unless I first take the time to learn why I'm doing it.

Anyway, I strayed off there... so, what do you guys do while at a temple? Do you actually partake in meditation with your friend?

I don't cross myself when visiting a cathedral, why would I mimic Buddhist prayer when I'm in a Buddhist temple? Unless my friend asked me to -- I would do it if it meant something to him. But for me, why?

[joe552]

I sit at the back quietly (trying to sit in the correct way) until my friend is finished. I find it a useful time just to go blank, not think about anything too much. Quite relaxing really. But basically being as unobtrusive as possible without causing offence.

Pray.

Fortunately in my local temple chairs are in plentiful supply, and I am usually brought one out of sympathy by someone!

..... and what is this "little golden elephant"?

..... and why do you "want him going" if you don't know what it's about, or why?

The only time most Thais/Buddhists go to the temple to make merit or pray is in the morning, around 7.15 for an hour or so, to give food to the monks after they have done their morning rounds, particularly during Vassa (Buddhist Lent after Kao Phansa) when most do not leave the temple grounds so are reliant on the food that is brought to them. If you are going at other times, regularly, when you can feel free to "just wander around", then there would normally be some specific reason for it - there's no direct equivalent of the Stations of the Cross or anything like that in Buddhism.

[cdnmatt]

..... and what is this "little golden elephant"?

I honestly don't know, and haven't bothered asking, because well, I don't particularly care. I've only ever seen it at the huge temple that KK is famous for, and it's only at a couple of the statues, not all of them. I don't know, it's this little golden colored statue of an elephant with a handle at the top. When Kim kneels, the first thing he does is lift the elephant off the ground by about 6 inches, then puts it back. Then shakes the tube of incense, does his three bows, meditates / prays for a bit, another shake of the incense and pick-up of the elephant, three more bows, and he's done.

I have no idea what the elephant is for though.


..... and why do you "want him going" if you don't know what it's about, or why?

Because mama is extremely Buddhist, he loves going, and it's important to him. It's apparent that after going to the temple, he's much more at peace with himself, which I think is great. I have my own ways of clearing my mind, and going to the temple is his, so of course I'm going to encourage him to go.


The only time most Thais/Buddhists go to the temple to make merit or pray is in the morning, around 7.15 for an hour or so, to give food to the monks after they have done their morning rounds ... you are going at other times, regularly, when you can feel free to "just wander around", then there would normally be some specific reason for it - there's no direct equivalent of the Stations of the Cross or anything like that in Buddhism.

What??? You can go to the temple any time you feel like being with Buddha for a bit. It's not like the monk's shutdown all temples after getting their food in the morning.

[bao-bao]

Two comments you made that seemed to speak volumes:


I honestly don't know, and haven't bothered asking, because well, I don't particularly care.
and

... he loves going, and it's important to him.
Obviously not my place to judge (so I'm not), but if I've learned anything in this life it's that communication is the key to any relationship - family, professional, personal or romantic partnerships.

It would seem that an understanding of a person's spiritual thinking and preferences is equally as important as an understanding of the nuances of their food, music or sexual preferences, if not more so. For example, saying to someone "I don't understand how you can stand curry that spicy" might not cause much of a ripple, but saying "all that bowing and scraping you do in the temple is ridiculous" can often do lasting damage on a deeper level.

Again, I'm not accusing you of being emotionally abusive to this person you speak of as the beginnings of a real relationship, but I'd suggest you make an attempt to understand this part of his life a little better. Who knows, you might gain something from it. Goodness knows Western religions have done far more than their share of emotional, physical and financial damage to the world.

Hopefully you were just making a small joke?

[cdnmatt]

Geez, people on this forum nitpick alot, and generally about the smallest shit. So what? Because I don't understand the underlying meaning of the little golden elephant, that somehow means I'm not empathetic towards him, his beliefs, and his values? I don't know, but for me, it'd be a good stretch of the imagination to come to that conclusion.

[Beachlover]

I find myself going to the temple two or three times a week nowadays, and generally just wander around like and idiot, while I look at the walls and ceiling as if they're absolutely fascinating. Kim loves going, but won't go by himself, mama's not around, and I want him going, so I go with him. Kim keeps prodding me to partake with him, but I don't feel comfortable doing so, as I feel it's somewhat disrespectful. You know, if I understood the underlying beliefs of Buddhism, and understood why I'm doing what I'm doing, then it'd be fine. But I don't, and don't particularly have any ambition to learn, so I just don't feel right in partaking with him.

Two to three times a week? It's lovely that he is spiritual... but that's a lot of time spent at the temple. I wonder if he was always like this... or if he just feels very thankful for the farang who's dragged him out of poverty into a life that's... well, nice.

Anyway... like you said, just show him you support and are happy for his praying, but have your own beliefs.

It's nice that he doesn't like going places without you and wants you with him all the time. Might seem annoying at first, but this thing he unconsciously does probably leads to a stronger relationship.


I don't cross myself when visiting a cathedral, why would I mimic Buddhist prayer when I'm in a Buddhist temple? Unless my friend asked me to -- I would do it if it meant something to him. But for me, why?

Totally agree....

[Beachlover]

Two comments you made that seemed to speak volumes:


I honestly don't know, and haven't bothered asking, because well, I don't particularly care.
and

... he loves going, and it's important to him.
Obviously not my place to judge (so I'm not), but if I've learned anything in this life it's that communication is the key to any relationship - family, professional, personal or romantic partnerships.

It would seem that an understanding of a person's spiritual thinking and preferences is equally as important as an understanding of the nuances of their food, music or sexual preferences, if not more so. For example, saying to someone "I don't understand how you can stand curry that spicy" might not cause much of a ripple, but saying "all that bowing and scraping you do in the temple is ridiculous" can often do lasting damage on a deeper level.

Again, I'm not accusing you of being emotionally abusive to this person you speak of as the beginnings of a real relationship, but I'd suggest you make an attempt to understand this part of his life a little better. Who knows, you might gain something from it. Goodness knows Western religions have done far more than their share of emotional, physical and financial damage to the world.

Hopefully you were just making a small joke?

I agree but I think it's taking one step at a time.

Everyone nitpicks and says "why haven't you done this?" and "you should do this" and says it in a way that implies you're being neglectful, incompetent (i.e. GF does this a lot) or abusive if you don't... but as with any venture... there's lots of little steps, which you take one at a time (hopefully in order of importance).

[Thai Dyed]

Geez, people on this forum nitpick alot, and generally about the smallest shit. So what? Because I don't understand the underlying meaning of [anything] I don't know, but for me, it'd be a good stretch of the imagination to come to that conclusion.

The smallest shit for you consists of being blackmailed, getting death threats, pulling up stakes escaping to the Boondocks where you have told us your devoted boyfriend would castrate you if he caught you going with another boy. All the while starting off this erstwhile Pattaya barboy with monetary gifts of р╕┐30,000 per month, while now simply giving him an ATM card on your account which you don't bother tracking withdrawals, so much so that you are totally clueless as to how much money you spend each month.

If that's your reality Matt, we hardly need to add anything whatsoever to stretch our own imaginations.

We also don't need Karnak the Great to predict your future.
[attachment=0:1652vu2q]Predicting Matts Future.jpg[/attachment:1652vu2q]

Everyone nitpicks and says "why haven't you done this?" and "you should do this" and says it in a way that implies you're being neglectful, incompetent (i.e. GF does this a lot) or abusive if you don't

On the contrary, BL. I have never asked "why haven't you done this?" or advised that "you should do this" or done anything to imply that Matt is being "neglectful ... or abusive" if he doesn't do as I advise. I have given Matt details by PM on specifics such as where exactly to go locally for adult education, what was available, etc, which he (and anyone else here) seemed unaware of - what he did with that information I left entirely up to him. "Incompetent" ... yes, but I could hardly have made that clearer and I have certainly not implied it! I have also been very clear, from Matt's first posting to the last, that as long as they are both happy with the relationship then that is all that matters and all that should matter.

You said that "as with any venture... there's lots of little steps, which you take one at a time (hopefully in order of importance)" and bao-bao described this as "the beginnings of a real relationship". I agree 100%. Little steps ... the beginnings. That is my constant criticism of Matt and why I think that if the relationship is to progress (or even last), and Matt is not to get badly hurt (and I mean physically as well as emotionally) he needs to take a step back and take a long, hard look at himself and his relationship, whatever it is.

His constant banging on about "he loves me ... he really loves me ... its not about the money ... its true love, etc, etc" ad nauseam from when they had known each other for literally only a few days, when they were totally unable to communicate verbally, and his insistence that death threats, violence and knives, physically hiding from being attacked, and some of Kim's irrational behaviour, is perfectly normal is so out of touch with reality that it is dangerous. I am not criticizing him - I am warning him from personal experience (which I have already described and see no point in going over again).

If he doesn't want to heed that warning that is his choice; there are plenty of others here all too ready to nit-pick for its own sake, so if he feels that that is all I am doing then I will quite happily leave them to carry on without my input.

Matt,

my question about the elephant was made out of simple curiousity, nothing more. I have never seen anything like this before in a Thai or Buddhist temple so I wondered what the particular significance of it was; personally, I enjoy finding out about things like this, particularly if it is part of local culture or if it means something to people who mean something to me. If you are not interested, well ... "so what?"

... and of course he or anyone else can go to the temple anytime they want to find peace, clear their mind, or for any other reason. I am simply telling you what is "normal", and going 2 or 3 times a week, every week, when it is not to make merit or to listen to the monks, is not normal. It's not wrong, under any circumstances, just not normal and not a sign of being "very thankful for the farang who's dragged him out of poverty into a life that's... well, nice ", "spiritual", or "extremely Buddhist". Thai men who are "spiritual" or "extremely Buddhist" or who want to make particular merit and are able to do so normally become monks for 90 days, not for the minimum 7. Not nit-picking, just pointing out what is normal. Make of that what you will.

Although my boyfriend seems fairly serious about his Buddhist beliefs he doesn't actually visit the temple very often. If I'm with him he is even more cursory about visiting and rarely spends long and expects me to go off and do something else. He's always having his fortune told which is sometimes automated with slot machines.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c156/Jons_photos/Thailand_2005_28.jpg

You put a coin in the slot machine for the day of the week you were born. The first time this happened he told me to put a coin in the correct machine and was staggered when I said I didn't know which day to choose. It was almost beyond his comprehension that someone could not know what day of the week they were born. I had to explain that it wasn't treated as important where I came from. I guessed at Thursday but discovered later I got it wrong. He finds my lack of religious belief or any form worship puzzling and I think it's why he doesn't try and involve me at the temple.

[Beachlover]

On the contrary, BL. I have never asked "why haven't you done this?" or advised that "you should do this" or done anything to imply that Matt is being "neglectful ... or abusive" if he doesn't do as I advise.

The statement wasn't aimed at just you (in case you didn't notice). Only the word before the brackets is.



"Incompetent" ... yes, but I could hardly have made that clearer and I have certainly not implied it! [b]

Your point being?


he needs to take a step back and take a long, hard look at himself and his relationship, whatever it is.

What a vague. grand and generalising belittlement. You basically assume he's a brainless moron who can't do anything right. You think he isn't continually assessing his relationship and making corrections, direction changes and actions to better it as he sees fit.


I am not criticizing him

Right. So what does, "you need a nanny" and "No idea what you eat, and now no idea what you spend. How old are you?" mean to you?

Not that criticism is a bad thing. It's the way you put it. Like a dickhead who needs to nitpick someone else's situation to death for no constructive reason at all other than to make himself feel important.

[Beachlover]

He's always having his fortune told which is sometimes automated with slot machines.

Wow... I haven't seen one of these before. LOL... they're getting machines to replace astrologists now. Great.

Hey, does the label at the top of the machine say, "Risk merit making"?

[Diec]

Beachbore has taken over this thread!! When I go to temple with my love, I practice the procedures of what others do and have never had anything said back to me.

[Dodger]

cdnmatt...

From the sounds of it - you're doing just fine.

I've observed some strange sights over the years including a drunk farang who staggered into the temple (still wearing his muddy shoes), slipped and almost fell on his ass getting into the kneeling positon in from of a table of monks, and then started slurring the words to the lords prayer with an Arkansas accent. The monks never flinched - but the lords prayer part had me rolling...555.

[Smiles]

" ... I think me participating is somewhat disrespectful to Buddhism as a whole, unless I first take the time to learn why I'm doing it.
... Anyway, I strayed off there... so, what do you guys do while at a temple? Do you actually partake in meditation with your friend? ... "
I don't think you can 'partake' of meditation with anyone: it's a solitary process almost be definition.
So forget all the Buddhist stuff (which you seem to already have discarded any use for anyway) and just go and 'meditate' yourself. Find a dark and quiet corner of the temple, one that's not too hot, preferably with a breeze blowing through and take any position which turns your crank and just clear the mind. You seem to be a congenital navel-gazer anyway, so find such a place and consider, er, 'nothing'. Kind of like Seinfeld.

There was a fairly small temple on a hill somewhere around Loei that we found once and it was perfect for such solitude: I'm not all that frantic about the concept of meditation really, but this particular place I found was very peaceful, and for a half hour I was off in emptiness. As we were staying over for three nights, I went back two more times and did the same ... getting the same out of it each time. Nothing to do with Buddhism, but the 'place'.

"Incompetent" ... yes, but I could hardly have made that clearer and I have certainly not implied it! [b]Your point being?

That you said that I (amongst others) had implied it, which was untrue.



he needs to take a step back and take a long, hard look at himself and his relationship, whatever it is.

What a vague. grand and generalising belittlement. You basically assume he's a brainless moron who can't do anything right. You think he isn't continually assessing his relationship and making corrections, direction changes and actions to better it as he sees fit.

No, you assume that is what I mean. What I actually mean is what I actually say - that he is a nice, well-meaning guy who is incredibly naive and who is likely to get badly hurt as he has no idea what is happening around him.



I am not criticizing himRight. So what does, "you need a nanny" and "No idea what you eat, and now no idea what you spend. How old are you?" mean to you?

It means that he has no idea what he eats or what he spends (or of much else, apparently) and that he needs to take a step back, etc ......

I'm
I find myself going to the temple two or three times a week nowadays, and generally just wander around like and idiot, while I look at the walls and ceiling as if they're absolutely fascinating. You know, if I understood the underlying beliefs of Buddhism, and understood why I'm doing what I'm doing, then it'd be fine.

Maybe you should try and learn something. It might surprise you to learn that buddhism in Thailand hase deviated a long long way from "standard" Buddhism. There are several books you can read that explain this, but the best of them are banned in Thailand.

Buddhism in Thailand has become a means of keeping the masses in their place, stopping social development, and facilitating the transfer of money. Remember why Luther nailed his thoughts to the cathedral door? Same same here.

Many westerners who study buddhism study the "real" version, and therefore don't realise the corruption that has spread.