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March 25th, 2010, 00:05
If you are living in Thailand on a small British Pension, there may be hope for you, for extra money soon. read below and the link at the bottom of th page

With many who are disenchanted with life in their own countries, who think after spending an idyllic fortnight's holiday in Thailand (and probably falling in love with a Thai), that they can find happiness and contentment in this 'tropical paradise'. Sadly, it's a dream that rarely comes true. However, people usually want to make their own mistakes rather than believe the 'tales of woe' of others that have gone before them. This may prevent some from doing so! Read on...

I believe that chances of success or survival in Thailand are better if you belong to one of the following groups. If you are rich and also sensible with your money, then go ahead. If an international company or similar offers you a high salaried job in Thailand, then fine. If you are retired or have steady funds from abroad and want to live modestly on those funds, go ahead, but watch yourself. And if you're a young traveler seeing the world, and you want to spend some time in Thailand teaching or whatever for the experience, then that's fine too.

If you don't fall into one of these groups, then you should probably only consider Thailand for short holidays. Many middle aged westerners in particular (including professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or making some money and "enjoying life" in Thailand. But very few make it, including most of the western food restaurant, girlie or gay bar owners and alike you might meet in Thailand who boast about their good life there. It is common for faltering foreigners to try and keep up appearances. Many end up broke, broken-hearted or crazed, sometimes all three! Some will leave to try and pick up the pieces of their shattered lives elsewhere. Thailand 'got them' in the end.

Thai business, visa and residency laws, corruption, dishonesty and deceit and other aspects of the "Thai way" are likely to get you in the end. Have a minor run-in with a wealthy or important Thai and your status and possibly your life will be at risk. Their whole culture is geared around making sure that foreigners pursuing individual efforts are not successful. It's ingrained in them from an early age to believe that they are the never-colonised master race of Asia (yes they really do think that) and their mythology runs so deep you'll never budge it.

Remember, in Thailand you'll never have any real business, legal or ownership rights. But Thais can probably go to your country and buy and own anything they can get their sticky hands on (because of the more tolerant business laws). To Thais, this is just further evidence of how clever they are, and how foolish are the foreigners who go to Thailand.

Thailand is ruled by a comparatively small business and industrial elite, mostly from Chinese origins. They hold all the power and most of the wealth in the country. Although the king and royal family are revered by ordinary people, they have little real power in a 'parliamentary democracy'. The idea of western foreigners living in the country and achieving wealth and status through individual entrepreneurial efforts is seen as a threat to the hegemony that the elite has over the Thai underclass who form the bulk of the population. For this reason, it is never allowed to happen.

Thailand should be seen from a western perspective as being rather like a casino; a place of entertainment with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune and the good life, a place for fun but with always the risk of loss. Most sensible people visit casinos occasionally. Spending every day there, and you will surely lose, because the "House Advantage" will get you eventually. So it is in Thailand. The Thai "House Advantage" will get you. They make sure of it.

Of course, if going to Thailand with all your money and slowly losing it and ending up teaching English for a pittance, because that's about all you can do, either illegally or working legally but being treated like a serf by Thai institutions, appeals to you then go ahead. Maybe a hand to mouth virtual poverty lifestyle appeals to you. And running around the country several times a year getting visas, or always being at the mercy of authorities on visa matters might also be your bag. If so, then go ahead, at least you'll be able to spend your nights at cheap restaurants sharing your impoverishment and frustration with other exploited western teachers. If not, think seriously.

In case you are thinking, let me say that I am not a former go-go bar owner gone bust, I have not lost my all doing business with Thais, no I haven't been cheated of everything by a bar-girl, no I haven't been reduced to the indignity of teaching English for a pittance. I have my own money, have spent a lot of time in Thailand, and have done some business there, have observed the experiences of a lot of foreigners, can see what goes on, and have enough concern to want to tell others about it.

If my words can prevent even one westerner of modest means from selling up and going to "enjoy life" in Thailand (and getting shafted in the end) then that will be something. Don't make the mistake of thinking that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can "make a contribution" to Thailand, no matter how good your intentions or needed your skills may be. Your contribution will never be welcomed, only your money. There is a saying in Thai that captures it well: "farang roo mark mai dee" - foreigners who know too much [about Thailand] are no good.



For tourists, who don't need or want to see the full picture, Thailand is great. So, go as a tourist, enjoy what you enjoy there, but don't be taken in by the culture or people, as many westerners have been, and don't under any circumstances give up anything back home to go and stay there unless you are financially secure for life, or know exactly what you are doing.

There is a tradition of resident foreigners in Thailand not telling to the truth about the country because they don't like to admit to themselves and to others about the mistake they have made in moving there.

Thailand is slowly recovering from the financial mess its political and business leaders got the country itself into, through a mixture or greed, incompetence, arrogance and corruption, but there is still political uncertainty and there will always be greed and corruption. Times ahead will still be difficult for many Thais. For foreigners, even more so.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/ma ... ons-ruling (http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010/mar/16/expats-await-pensions-ruling)

March 25th, 2010, 00:46
..... there may be hope for you .....

There is always hope - is there any actual news on the ruling, however, which was due a week ago?

Maybe someone has a scoop?

Maybe not ....

doug7363
March 25th, 2010, 02:41
Yes - the European Court sided with the UK Goverment - if you reside outside UK it is NOT index linked

jinks
March 25th, 2010, 02:45
if you reside outside UK

Don't tell anyone :hello1:

March 25th, 2010, 02:46
[quote="Prince Charming":2z1pqu2p] ..... there may be hope for you .....

There is always hope - is there any actual news on the ruling, however, which was due a week ago?

Maybe someone has a scoop?

Maybe not ....[/quote:2z1pqu2p]

The European Court of Human Rights ruled on 16 March 2010, in an 11/6 decision, that the United Kingdom can continue to withhold annual index-linked increases of the UK basic state pension from pensioners living in тАШfrozenтАЩ countries.

The International Consortium of British Pensioners (ICBP) continues to campaign for pension parity:

http://www.pension-parity-uk.com/

March 28th, 2010, 21:23
"Thailand is ruled by a comparatively small business and industrial elite, mostly from Chinese origins. They hold all the power and most of the wealth in the country. Although the king and royal family are revered by ordinary people, they have little real power in a 'parliamentary democracy'. The idea of western foreigners living in the country and achieving wealth and status through individual entrepreneurial efforts is seen as a threat to the hegemony that the elite has over the Thai underclass who form the bulk of the population. For this reason, it is never allowed to happen."

what have u been smoking??

witchhunt
March 28th, 2010, 21:46
withunow now you play the innocent You had better delete your few posts, as you are obviously another reincarnation of LMTU pretending not to be.

Impulse
March 29th, 2010, 05:07
Im disapointed with the replies here.No one here has really reacted in detail about this interesting post.
Gone fishing is never at a loss for words,yet he just had a blurb.This is a post that FF usually would reply to,yet he is silent.What gives?

cdnmatt
March 29th, 2010, 13:49
Well, guess I'll be the first one to give an actual reply.


Many middle aged westerners in particular (including professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or making some money and "enjoying life" in Thailand. But very few make it, including most of the western food restaurant, girlie or gay bar owners and alike you might meet in Thailand who boast about their good life there. It is common for faltering foreigners to try and keep up appearances. Many end up broke, broken-hearted or crazed, sometimes all three! Some will leave to try and pick up the pieces of their shattered lives elsewhere. Thailand 'got them' in the end.

I think you might be a little pessimistic there. I could be wrong, and although sure there's hurt involved for many, I highly doubt most see it in such a negative light. I bet most chalk it up to a chapter in their lives that was definitely worth living, but is now over, and it's time to move onto the next chapter. Not sure if I'd paint them as people returning home with their tail between their legs. If anything, I'd paint it as people willing to leave their comfort zone to try something different.


Thailand should be seen from a western perspective as being rather like a casino; a place of entertainment with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune and the good life, a place for fun but with always the risk of loss. Most sensible people visit casinos occasionally. Spending every day there, and you will surely lose, because the "House Advantage" will get you eventually. So it is in Thailand. The Thai "House Advantage" will get you. They make sure of it.

I think you're over-exaggerating the negative factors again, and under-estimating Thailand and Thai people. You will not "always lose" (whatever that means), especially if you know what you're getting yourself involved with from the beginning. Just look around, and there's loads of successful Thai - farang relationships, where many of the farangs own business. Granted, all the ones I know of are straight couples, but many have been together 10 - 20+ years, and are doing just fine.


Don't make the mistake of thinking that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can "make a contribution" to Thailand, no matter how good your intentions or needed your skills may be. Your contribution will never be welcomed, only your money.

Bullshit. We volunteer for Habitat for Humanity one day a week, and I don't know, but everyone seems fairly appreciative. Kim's mom seems pretty appreciative that I came up with the idea of going to the village one day a week to takeover the restaurant, and give her a break, since she works 7 days a week. It's cute too, as I've become somewhat of a spectacle. Everyone in the village loves a farang serving them food. :-)


There is a saying in Thai that captures it well: "farang roo mark mai dee" - foreigners who know too much [about Thailand] are no good.

You're spending too much time in beer-bars and around prostitutes than. I don't get this at all anymore, but I do know what you mean.


There is a tradition of resident foreigners in Thailand not telling to the truth about the country because they don't like to admit to themselves and to others about the mistake they have made in moving there.

I don't know, I guess maybe you're concentrating on the foreigners who setup shop and settle down in the center of the sex-tourism industry? Then, yes, I can see how that would happen, but the same would happen in any country. If you setup a strip joint in Amsterdam, I'm sure eventually you'd get fucked over too, just like in Thailand.

The one thing I would like to add though, is I think alot of the "failures" have to do with culture shock as well. Coming for vacations with a return flight in hand are one thing, but permanently moving here, and living in Thailand day after day, month after month is a different thing. Culture shock affects everyone differently, but it will affect you within 6 months of living here full-time, in some fashion.

This is probably when many people get frustrated about all the differences they've tried so hard to adapt to, begin disliking Thailand, and missing their home. This begins affecting all aspects of their life, including any serious relationships their in, business life & decisions, friends, general outlook, etc. My bet is, this is when shit hits the fan most of the time. Has nothing to do with Thailand. It has to do with adapting to a new culture and life.

DamienZ
March 29th, 2010, 16:10
Prince Charming,
thank you for your take on what could go wrong (and probably has in many instances) to many an unsuspecting farang.
I assume you are an experienced traveler to LOS, and have had more than a few bad experiences at the hands of those wiley Thais. Having been burned a few times myself in the romantic/financial areas, I can understand a certain masked bitterness. However, speaking for myself, upon deeper reflection, it has always been my motivations, even when masked in altruism, that have been the root and cause of my own misadventures in LOS. Never-the-less I still love the Thai people and their culture and more than likely always will. Why on earth would we be on SGT anyway? A few pointers you gave out though need mention or maybe clarification?


Thailand is slowly recovering from the financial mess its political and business leaders got the country itself into, through a mixture or greed, incompetence, arrogance and corruption, but there is still political uncertainty and there will always be greed and corruption.

In what country is this not a recurrent theme? Why should this be specific to Thailand?


Thailand should be seen from a western perspective as being rather like a casino; a place of entertainment with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune and the good life, a place for fun but with always the risk of loss. Most sensible people visit casinos occasionally. Spending every day there, and you will surely lose, because the "House Advantage" will get you eventually. So it is in Thailand. The Thai "House Advantage" will get you. They make sure of it.

Yes, from a "western perspective" I imagine it would be rather conveneint to objectify an entire population and its culture as a gambling casino. Much like a sex addict would objectify any human being to make the execution and practice of his dis-ease easier to live with and more palatable. Objectifying an individual, a race, country, or any ethnic group certainly makes it easier to go in and have a little fun and then hopefully leave ahead of the game with your winnings-God forbide you should loose your shirt!


Don't make the mistake of thinking that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can "make a contribution" to Thailand..

Today, over 700,000 Thais are HIV or AIDS positive - approximately 2% of adult men and 1.5% of adult women. Every year, 30,000-50,000 Thais die from HIV or AIDS-related causes. Ninety percent of them aged 20тАУ24, the youngest range of the workforce.

Looks like contributions are being made all the time..


So thanks for your sound advice and refresher course on the house rules of that huge, hot, fucking smelly, gambling casino we all know and love and keep returning to and affectionately call Land Of Smiles.

let me stop now....i'm getting verklempt *sniff*

"The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality."
тАФ Dante Alighieri (Inferno)

:thumbright:

Beachlover
March 29th, 2010, 17:35
Didn't read this myself at first because I thought it was just about British Pension takers...

Prince Charming lays everything out in a bold uninhibited way, which is commendable.

I would say his message is to be taken as cautionary list of the common pitfalls to be aware of, rather than a definitive "this is how it is" view. Cdnmatt brings it more back to Earth with a more positive view.

Plenty of farangs have succeeded in their desired endeavor in Thailand. And while many more have failed... isn't this the case with many of the most worthy pursuits?... More people failing than succeeding?

Smiles
March 29th, 2010, 17:54
There are stringy snippets of truth in this rambling clich├й of an OP. But they are so common to so many other countries and so surrounded by a trail of general bitterness towards everything Thai that the article (not Prince Charming's, but The Guardian's ... the link's at the bottom) can easily be taken with a grain of salt and a few hearty "yeah yeah yeah's": heard it all before evesdropping on bitter, creepy, drunken English guys sitting around a sloppy bar table with 'The-Same-As-Them' going on and on ad nauseum about all that's wrong with Thailand. And then they do it all over again the next night.

I know quite a lot farangs who have thriving businesses in Thailand (they do what they have to do to make it here, with a smile, don't drink too much, and can get through the low season), and I know also of a number who did really really badly and lost all (" ... got hosed in this goddamn country .. " they said to all who'd listen): But more often than not because they were pigs (one I remember was a Canadian, opening a guest house, bellowed rudely at the Thai staff, and lasted 6 months), or stupid, or alcoholics (one I remember, an American with an amazing penchant for whiskey who stood outside his own new guest house (again!) twice a week and screamed drunkenly at his neighbours that they weren't supporting his bar), or who listened to the wrong people or hung around the wrong people, or had shallow pockets, or who wouldn't know a Good Decision if it up 'n bit him, or refused any attempt to 'understand' Thais, or playing funny buggers with The Law .... etc etc etc

March 30th, 2010, 01:03
There are stringy snippets of truth in this rambling clich├й of an OP.

Nice turn of phrase. :thumbup:

Brad the Impala
March 30th, 2010, 04:57
Nice post Damien. A little understated black humour is always welcome here!

March 31st, 2010, 01:56
Im disapointed with the replies here.No one here has really reacted in detail about this interesting post.
Gone fishing is never at a loss for words,yet he just had a blurb.This is a post that FF usually would reply to,yet he is silent.What gives?

What is there to say?

It's a not particularly interesting and not particularly well-written post which, incidentally, has nothing whatsoever to do with the Guardian article in the link.

If you were to delete the couple of lines on the Thai royal family and Thai and Thailand it could just as easily have been written about the vast majority of developing and newly industrialised countries by anyone who has failed to fit in there just as they have been "disenchanted with life in their own countries".

A failure and mis-fit at home has a similar if not greater chance of being an equal failure and mis-fit abroad, although there will always be some exceptions; there is little new about that just as there is little new about the post which has been posted unchanged on a number of boards for at least 6 years.



"Farang roo mark mai dee"? Hardly a Thai saying although you may hear some Thai bar-girls saying it, which is hardly the same thing and hardly justifies PC's interpretation. The only other place it appears is in a solitary post on ajarnforum by one of the more prolific posters; what a surprise.