time to cut the krap??

[a447]

Just following on from my question about the "wai" I am now wondering if I should add "krap" to a sentence in Thai if I am speaking to a younger guy.
Any thoughts?
Kop kun krap!

Yes. Doesn't have to be every sentence, but doesn't hurt to through one in every now and then.

It's impossible to have too much Krap - as this board surely demonstrates.

:hello1:

[catawampuscat]

If you are going to use it, try dropping the "r" and say kup, just like almost
everyone Thai you will speak with..
Instead of saying something that sounds like 'crap' in English, try saying
kup which sound like 'cup' in English..
just a suggestion but no doubt some will insist on going formal and giving
wacky wais as well. :tard:

[Impulse]

just a suggestion but no doubt some will insist on going formal and giving
wacky wais as well. lol. This krap,krap ,krap drives me nuts.Every sentence ended with a krap,it's very distracting listening to my thai lessons. I say cop khun krap myself. for thankyou.
Agree with ff,throw it in every now and then.

[Impulse]

I agree with many others then when you are involved with a younger Thai guy it is up to him to make an effort to understand your culture such as saying Thank You! It is a two way street.....My dime my time!
A friend of mine complained that the Thais very rarely thank him.And after a week of spending lots of money on one guy on some trip,he asked him if he had a good time. The boi replied no.Ha ha,this really pissed him off. I never noticed this myself,though I do remember many a wai from them. Is this common for younger Thais or Thais in general,not saying "Thank you"?.

[catawampuscat]

Forget about not saying thank you..
what really burns my ass is that the boys never say
'have a nice day'..
Don't they know how to be phony and didn't they go to Miss Manners
school..
Can you imagine the worst thing.. :nud:
I never got a handwritten mailed thank-you note..
Not once.. what rudeness!
I don't know what we see in these rude boys..Some don't even know the difference between
may I? and can I?

[RichLB]

And before the usual trolls start flaming, I am fully aware I had vowed not to post on this site again, but I have changed my mind.

To address the issue of when to say "krap" and when not to, recognize that Thai is a tonal language. As such, while most western languages use tones and voice inflections as a way of sofening statements, Thais must use another device. Thus the use of "krap", "na" "duay< etc. serve the purpose of making what could appear to be a coarse demand or arrogant statement polite and softer.

As to saying "Thank you", many Thais use a far different convention than we in the West do. Years ago when visiting my Thai boyfeirned's home I gifted his parents the first trip to the market by purchasing a lot of food. Upon returning to their home I was waid and thanked. I graciously smiled and waid them back. A week or two later we returned to the market where I again restocked their larder. Upon returning home, the purchases were carried into the house and not a word of thanks was offered. Later that day I explained to my boyfriend that I wasn't going to do that again because no one had thanked me. He gave me a perplexed look and insisted that I ahd been thanked. We went back and forth over this and he finally reminded me that the first time we went to the market his family had thanked me and let me know how much they appreciated my generosity. He said I must therefore already know they were greatful and no one would inslult me by behaving as if I had forgotten that. He was mystified that I thought it was necessary to thank me for each act of kindness I showed. Upon thinking about it, I realized he was right and my desire to be thanked again was rather selfish since I did, in fact, know how much they needed and appreciated my gifts.

Interesting take on it! Never looked at it that way....


Nor I. It makes sense that needless repetition of thanks and platitudes actually diminish the original intent. The need for repeated thanks, even when you know that they already feel thankful, is a selfish act. Learn something new everyday...

On the kup/krap... It ALWAYS sounds like kup to me. Always. I totally understand now that it is used to reflexively soften a sentence, much the same way we might use 'okay?' to soften a request to make it come across less of a command i.e. 'take me to the end of the street, okay?'

Absent knowing where to interject 'kup/krap' I think it sounds stupid to see westerners using it liberally to make them think they are somehow speaking Thai. 99% of the time I hear farang friends using it they use it standalone as they don't know a lick of Thai. The only time I can see it appropriate (unless you utilize it correctly within Thai speech) would be when a Thai uses it as a standalone greeting. Even then, I prefer to respond with 'Hello' or a wai. The wai is something I trained myself to do reflexively ever since I read somewhere that 1) they actually are disappointed at non-attempts to wai back and 2) they actually appreciate any effort to wai, no matter how badly it's done as long as it's sincere.

Having said that, I don't judge others that chose to use krap/kup. Just that this thread now confirms what I thought- that out of context usage by farangs renders it meaningless and verbal pollution.

In Vietnam: I am told that "THANKS", especially among rural Vietnamese, is often not tendered when you would expect it to be. The understanding is that at some point in future, the recipient will do something to express thanks or return the favor. Maybe there's a bit of that thinking in Thailand?

Wai's and Thai's: The boys are usually pretty good about saying "thanks", though often the Wai is omitted, because, I guess, they figure we are outside their cultural system and we wouldn't know how to respond to it. Maybe also geographical? I get more Wai's in Chiang Mai than I do from Issan boys.

[RichLB]

I suppose most residents and regular visitors to Thailand already know this, but for the few who don't I'll post a reminder about wais. It is inappropriate for an adult to initiate a wai with a child - I've been told it confers bad luck to the youngster. And, normally, the younder is supposed to wai first unless the older has obviously lesser social status.

[a447]

Thanks for you replies, but I think I may have been misunderstood.
I have no trouble using "krup" when speaking my pathetic Thai to an older person. I was just wondering if I should be "polite" to a younger guy. I've already learnt that i don't have to be polite to him by "wai"ing him. MInd you, I have no trouble being polite to ANYONE, no matter the age; I am now thinking it might be silly in a cultural sense to be polite to someone who is younger; ike talking to a 7 year old in German and referring to him as "SIE'. (Or "VOUS", if you speak French. Or "ANATA" if you speak Japanese)

It is really very simple.

Rule one: it will never cause offense or make you stupid if you return a wai.

Rule two: you should never initiate one with someone of lower status or lower age. When in doubt, don't initiate.

I asked a Thai guy why I hear most people say 'kap' and only a few use 'krap'. His reply was using 'krap' is proper, 'kap' is being lazy.

Any truth to that?

I asked a Thai guy why I hear most people say 'kap' and only a few use 'krap'. His reply was using 'krap' is proper, 'kap' is being lazy.

Any truth to that?

Yes. Same as the difference between "going to" and "gonna". It is acceptable colloquially in informal situations, but "krub" is preferred.

[Impulse]

I was with a Thai who told me that saying,mai ow krap( don't want) was not polite. You should say,mai ow krap,cop khun krap. It seems to work better that way. Is it mai ow krap or mai ow cop?

I was with a Thai who told me that saying,mai ow krap( don't want) was not polite. You should say,mai ow krap,cop khun krap. It seems to work better that way. Is it mai ow krap or mai ow cop?

Sounds like you were with a didactic cunt. "Mai ao krab" is perfectly fine, though adding on "khob khun krab" makes it more polite. Stick with "krab" for reasons above.

It is really very simple.

Rule one: it will never cause offense or make you stupid if you return a wai.

Rule two: you should never initiate one with someone of lower status or lower age. When in doubt, don't initiate.

Oh really? I see older types among Thais wai-ing all the time to those that are lower aged but ambiguously of higher status- say, authority figures and police-types. So what happens if you accidentally wai someone you at first assumed was older then find out you're actually a year old? Do you fricking blow them up on the spot and cause a lifetime of misery? So you go around calculating ages and status and spend all day wondering what the fuck to do?? That's insane.

You could find a reason someone is 'higher status' in EVERY instance, starting with the assumption that as a guest of the Kingdom you are automatically lower in status (and don't doubt for second that you are!). The only clear cut rule (IMHO) would be not wai-ing to kids initially. In every other social circumstance it's stupid to make up idiot reasons not to wai if you feel like it's appropriate.

Dirtbag or not, farangs will never rise to the status level of regular Thais in their minds.

Being a self-described Fuck Face, I guess you should wai to all the little toddlers (and maybe soi dogs too!). LMTU should wai even the lowest Thai cockroach- you never know what it was in it's previous incarnation (just teasing, LMTU).

Just throwing this out there...but why should it be so important for us, as guests, with our own cultures, to mimic Thais to the degree that some of the sticklers on this board insist that we do?

In the US, when encountering an Native American I would never be tempted to say 'How' or meeting a gangbanger doing some funky jive shit or saying 'Shalom' when encountering an orthodox Jew. I'm sure you Aussies never talk aborigine-talk when you bump into them on the streets, nor you Kiwis share a cannibal meal with the Maoris.

The Thais have wonderful traditions and behaviors but I've yet to encounter a single situation where any Thai has been offended by any sincere farang trying their best to accommodate them. The idea of some know-it-all old farangs scolding those that haven't lived here a long time about a mispronounced phrase or unintentional mistake in how they wai or cross their legs I find preposterous- especially when their express purpose for being here, more often than not, is to exploit their young people for sexual pleasure. Talk about offending their Thai hosts!

[quiet1]

So you go around calculating ages and status and spend all day wondering what the fuck to do?? That's insane.
It's not unique to Thai language and culture.

The Japanese language is dictated by similar societal rules. The use of nong/phi in Thai has a direct equivalent in Japanese (different words for older brother and younger brother, and they can be used to address strangers, like a waiter), and one uses a different level of respect (different word-forms and even altogether different words) in addressing superiors and subordinates. It's not just the use of different nouns to refer to people, it's a different use of verbs. It's actually complex: there are "plain" and "formal" ways to speak, and also different levels of politeness. (Soo deshyoo. Soo desu. Sayoo de gozaimasu. All mean "Uh huh"...)

Initially I was perplexed: Why, when meeting people for the first time, after saying hello, they would ask how old I was? They did so, even in a bar setting, so they knew how to speak to me without disrespecting me, and what level of formality to use. They would ask very early in the conversation. A routine exchange of business/name cards can serve the same purpose. When doing so, Japanese actually take the time to at least glance at the card to see if they can determine the relative relationship between the two.

One man's insanity is another's normalcy?

[Beachlover]

I'm sure you Aussies never talk aborigine-talk when you bump into them on the streets

F*ck no... or I'd be saying, "hey fella... have you gotta dollar?"

The Japanese language is dictated by similar societal rules. The use of nong/phi in Thai has a direct equivalent in Japanese (different words for older brother and younger brother, and they can be used to address strangers, like a waiter), and one uses a different level of respect (different word-forms and even altogether different words) in addressing superiors and subordinates. It's not just the use of different nouns to refer to people, it's a different use of verbs. It's actually complex: there are "plain" and "formal" ways to speak, and also different levels of politeness. (Soo deshyoo. Soo desu. Sayoo de gozaimasu. All mean "Uh huh"...)

Initially I was perplexed: Why, when meeting people for the first time, after saying hello, they would ask how old I was? They did so, even in a bar setting, so they knew how to speak to me without disrespecting me, and what level of formality to use. They would ask very early in the conversation. A routine exchange of business/name cards can serve the same purpose. When doing so, Japanese actually take the time to at least glance at the card to see if they can determine the relative relationship between the two.

One man's insanity is another's normalcy?

...and where does dropping two atomic bombs on their cities- completely unnecessarily, I might add- fit into all this?

It's one thing for people within the same culture to commit a faux pas. Elevating unintended foreigner conduct to a malevolent level is just plain stupid- especially when those bringing the allegation are themselves foreigners wanting only to embarrass their counterparts.

Preening, sanctimonious fuckwits.

Being a self-described Fuck Face

The term "Fuck Face" is not a self-descriptive. It is in honor of Jinks (capital J).

As for older/younger...authority trumps age. So an older person might wai a younger person if they are of higher status or an authority figure.

No one says you you have to do anything if you don't want. Thais generally don't expect farangs to know when to wai or when not to wai, and don't expect them to wai at all. Most of us here would like to rise above, though, to show our hosts and their culture some respect.

If that's of no import to you, just put your feet on the table, pick your teeth with a toothpick without shielding with your hand, and don't show any respect to anyone. I'm sure you'll go far here.

If that's of no import to you, just put your feet on the table, pick your teeth with a toothpick without shielding with your hand, and don't show any respect to anyone. I'm sure you'll go far here.


No, no, no, no...putting feet up is the ultimate insult...though the toothpick thing, I thought, was totally Chinese, who believe (like smiling) the baring of teeth is a sign of aggression. You sure you didn't cross up your Chinese/Thai (no bare teeth/LOS) wires there, FF?

If that's of no import to you, just put your feet on the table, pick your teeth with a toothpick without shielding with your hand, and don't show any respect to anyone. I'm sure you'll go far here.


No, no, no, no...putting feet up is the ultimate insult...though the toothpick thing, I thought, was totally Chinese, who believe (like smiling) the baring of teeth is a sign of aggression. You sure you didn't cross up your Chinese/Thai (no bare teeth/LOS) wires there, FF?

Very, very sure.

[chillnorth]

Perfect.... more of the culture I grew up in will help a lot. So anyone who gives the wai at the wrong time or place to the wrong person or who mixes up "kup" or "krap" just gets to go to Hell and avoid the confusion.

Very, very sure.

Really???


From a Thai Etiquette Guide Book:

Manners in Public Places

Do not comb or brush your hair in public places, such as when you sit by a swimming pool or sit chatting with a number of friends.
Do not apply make-up in public where anyone can keep looking at you.
Do not pick your teeth. Much worse, push the toothpick further into your mouth so that your lips become lop-sided, or leave the toothpick stuck in your mouth for any length of time.
Do not pick your nose, your eye or your ear in front of people.
Do not start a quarrel easily and make a scene of yourself.

Supposedly, picking your teeth- hand closed over or not- is right up there with not picking your nose...which Thais do all the time in public with an extra long fingernail they grow just for picking their nose.

Go see the entire site: http://studyinthailand.org/Thai_social_ ... uette.html (http://studyinthailand.org/Thai_social_etiquette/everyday_etiquette.html)

It's hilarious how many rules they have that I never, ever see enforced yet the solemn powers-that-be of the sanctimonious farang-that-guard-the-Thai-culture types insist that we all should be following. Funny.

My favorite is this one:

Manners when in Company

Do not scratch here and scratch there.

Check!

[Beachlover]

The term "Fuck Face" is not a self-descriptive. It is in honor of Jinks (capital J).

Heh... It's a dual use term then.


As for older/younger...authority trumps age. So an older person might wai a younger person if they are of higher status or an authority figure..

Totally true.

Very, very sure.

Really???




Yes, really! How many times do you need me to confirm? If you have to pick your teeth in public, use your free hand to shield the site from others who might be nearby. You can see this at any restaurant in anywhere in Thailand, dozens of times of day.

Go ahead, ask me again if you like. The answer will be the same, though.

Fuck-Face wrote:
As for older/younger...authority trumps age. So an older person might wai a younger person if they are of higher status or an authority figure..


Totally true.

Why? Who said so?

So if you are a police person and you wai someone of age out of respect, you are insulting them? They blow up on the spot or are condemned to a lifetime of shitty blackjack hands?

WHY would it be inappropriate for a person in authority to wai someone of great wisdom? Do elder monks outrank immigration officers and therefore deserve wais or it's a faux pas? What about a police chief and provincial governor? Who gets the wai or it's an impolite act?

Would Thaksin deserve a wai from Abhisit? Would the prince wai the Dalai Lama?

Why and how would you sort out, accurately, all these inter-tangled lines of age and status? And whose keeping track?

Just wondering...

BL,

You realize under these rules we'd all be required to wai LMTU, as he's 90-something years old?

JL

BL,

You realize under these rules we'd all be required to wai LMTU, as he's 90-something years old?

JL

except that he is definitely not an authority

Oh, I imagine, in his mind, he's king of some imaginary land far, far away...

[andrewcraig]

jack take a cold shower you have no wit and you are boring. Precis what you have written and post only the 10% left.

BL,

You realize under these rules we'd all be required to wai LMTU, as he's 90-something years old?

JL

I've already told you that status trumps age. Are you dim?

[Beachlover]

BL,

You realize under these rules we'd all be required to wai LMTU, as he's 90-something years old?

JL

I think you got it mixed up... FF said AUTHORITY trumps age... not the other way around.

[Beachlover]

jack take a cold shower you have no wit and you are boring. Precis what you have written and post only the 10% left.

You're one of these people who... whenever you write something, people write back saying, "can you clarify what you meant" and the stupid thing goes back and fourth 3 times before you get a result... aren't you?

[Jetsam]

Maybe of topic, but I noticed that the Thai guys I was with never gave me a Wai when I gave them something (food or other things) , they just say thank you or nothing at all, but they all Wai when you give them money :dontknow:

[a447]

Situation clarified...I think. I asked a Thai woman about using "krup." She said it was ok to use it anywhere and anytime. She did agree with posters here about the Wai, though. Basically, be careful you don't wai inappropriately, and never to a waiter, taxi driver, etc.

[Smiles]

Thanks for you replies, but I think I may have been misunderstood.
I have no trouble using "krup" when speaking my pathetic Thai to an older person. I was just wondering if I should be "polite" to a younger guy. I've already learnt that i don't have to be polite to him by "wai"ing him. MInd you, I have no trouble being polite to ANYONE, no matter the age; I am now thinking it might be silly in a cultural sense to be polite to someone who is younger; ike talking to a 7 year old in German and referring to him as "SIE'. (Or "VOUS", if you speak French. Or "ANATA" if you speak Japanese)
a447, the use of the ending word 'krap'/'kup' (either one) is not akin to the 'wai' in terms of it's politeness. The 'wai's use is guided by fairly strict status-driven rules . . . which in itself should be enough reason for a farang to avoid using it in most circumstances (with a few exceptions).

The use of 'kup' is in it's softening or gentling effect on the sentence itself. Thus, you should can easily use it to one and everyone when you speak Thai to a Thai: a 'gentling' affected speech is always a good thing ... so krap away!

I've heard this anology for what 'krup'/'kap' actually means, even though the word itself is rather untranslatable ... and the analogy not perfect. But here goes anyway.

IN ENGLISH:
Let's say you are at a dinner table of friends and acquaintances.[/*:m:39azdyog]
Let's say the salt is down there at the other end, and you want it.[/*:m:39azdyog]
You might say this (in a loud voice, over the table talk): " ... Pass the salt! ... "[/*:m:39azdyog]
But because the tone of that would seem harsh, demanding, possibly rude, you'd probably say this instead: " ... Would you pass the salt, please ... "[/*:m:39azdyog]
Although the "would you" and especially the "please" on the end are not strictly necessary, they completely change the dynamic of the sentence from an harsh order, into a gentle request.[/*:m:39azdyog]

If you think about it, english speakers constantly add "please" on to the end of sentences (especially when speaking to strangers, and 7-11 employees). Why? Because it's use 'softens' any potential harshness. It use make it obvious that no fight or confrontation is desired.
Don't misunderstand, or take the 'please' analogy too far. I'm not saying that 'krup/'kup'/'ka' are in any way translatable into the word 'please'. But the affect of the words, when put at the end of sentences, accomplishes a similar end.
'Krup/'kup'/'ka' use is also a bit wider than the use of 'please' ... for instance, in many cases a simple 'kup' can be substituted for the longer 'kop khun kup', when getting change for a purchase at a store etc etc.

And as far as the original post question is concerned, the use of 'krup/'kup'/'ka' is perfectly OK to use with any Thai person, under any circumstace.

Situation clarified...I think. I asked a Thai woman about using "krup." She said it was ok to use it anywhere and anytime. She did agree with posters here about the Wai, though. Basically, be careful you don't wai inappropriately, and never to a waiter, taxi driver, etc.

Gee, thanks for the confirmation on something we told you days ago. As if there was any doubt that what I say is always true.

[a447]

Gee, thanks for the confirmation on something we told you days ago.
I tend to put more weight on an answer from a native speaker. (Funny, that). Unfortunately, they are in short supply on this board.


As if there was any doubt that what I say is always true.

Consider the point taken. :happy7:

I tend to put more weight on an answer from a native speaker. (Funny, that). Unfortunately, they are in short supply on this board.

Who do you think is the native speaker here that you place more weight on?

I tend to put more weight on an answer from a native speaker. (Funny, that). Unfortunately, they are in short supply on this board.

Who do you think is the native speaker here that you place more weight on?

He asked a Thai woman about it. Can't you follow a simple conversation? I'm beginning to worry about you. Are you a retard?

PS: this from someone who earlier today posted a message beginning with the chide "if you've actually been reading the thread".

Actually, FF, you make a valid point! Can't argue with you that I was lazy- though not a retard :-(.

Just that it seemed that it seemed that a447 was enlightened by Smiles answer and I thought it amusing that he might have thought Smiles was a native speaker. I had actually read the original post and had forgotten about it. I tend to do that when people post referencing 'aThai woman'.

Point well taken about "if you've actually been reading the thread"...mea culpa.

By the way, when you said:


Gee, thanks for the confirmation on something we told you days ago. As if there was any doubt that what I say is always true.

I had also stated:

I totally understand now that it is used to reflexively soften a sentence, much the same way we might use 'okay?' to soften a request to make it come across less of a command i.e. 'take me to the end of the street, okay?'

Which is exactly what Smiles says and what you contended as well. When you stated 'we told you days ago' I just assumed that you were referring to what you and I had already laid out.

[Impulse]

You might say this (in a loud voice, over the table talk): " ... Pass the salt! ... "
But because the tone of that would seem harsh, demanding, possibly rude, you'd probably say this instead: " ... Would you pass the salt, please ... "
A refined person might say this(in a soft voice,over table talk): "....Can you please pass the jam?...".
But an ignorant,crass,hill-billy might say in a loud voice: "...Can you pass the jelly!!?....". :hello1:

I tend to think that 90% of posters on here have difficiulty passing a shit!



:occasion9:

Travel Thailand - trust Tourist Police


A countries greatness is judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi


But an ignorant,crass,hill-billy might say in a loud voice:
[ ] "1155!"
[ ] "Grammar!"
[ ] "Your grammar is excellent!"

http://www.thaitouristpolice.com/main.php

Travel Thailand - trust Tourist Police


A countries greatness is judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi


But an ignorant,crass,hill-billy might say in a loud voice:
[ ] "1155!"
[ ] "Grammar!"
[ ] "Your grammar is excellent!"

http://www.thaitouristpolice.com/main.php

Fuck sake

[quote="Pol. Maj. Gen. Choochart Suwannakom":1eoz1syu]Travel Thailand - trust Tourist Police


A countries greatness is judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi


But an ignorant,crass,hill-billy might say in a loud voice:
[ ] "1155!"
[ ] "Grammar!"
[ ] "Your grammar is excellent!"

http://www.thaitouristpolice.com/main.php

Fuck sake[/quote:1eoz1syu]

Ditto!