Pointing the feet

[PeterUK]

Since we have an interesting thread on wais and wherefores at the moment I thought it might be a good idea to do something similar for feet-pointing. Newcomers might find it useful. I recall how on my first visit to Thailand some twenty years ago I would go to extraordinary lengths to avoid pointing my feet at people when sitting or even standing - contortionists weren't in it. It was quite some time before I reluctantly accepted the impossibility of what I was trying to do; well, the damn things have to point somewhere, right? And anyway I gradually realised that it isn't so much a matter of what the feet are doing when planted on the ground as when they are raised baring the soles and even then it's a matter of context. If you're sitting in a deckchair at the beach with your feet stretched out on a low table, no passing Thai is going to be remotely offended (though if one stops in front of you to talk at any length it would be only polite to take your feet down). But if you sit cross-legged in a song thaew in such a way that a bare sole is pointing at a Thai (I've seen it done many times), that would cause some offense, though you'd probably not know it from the impassive face. Feet-pointing is only deeply offensive if clearly done with intent - if you've been arguing with a Thai sitting opposite, say, and then deliberately stretch out your feet in his direction; in such a situation prepare to defend yourself!

Just to show that I absolutely don't always practise what I preach, here's an incident which occurred recently. I was at the market of Chong Mek on the Thai-Lao border (in a small tour party led by the admirable Suphot) and wanted to get a closer look at some shirts hanging on a rail. Unfortunately, there were two country women chatting on their haunches in front of me and a parked motorcycle prevented me from going round them. Displaying typical Western patience - I waited, ooh, several seconds - I decided on impulse to step over one of the women as inoffensively as possible. Well, my inelegantly raised foot almost brushed her head as I did so and there were immediate gasps of shock and horror; the woman in question scampered to one side and gave me a look of utter contempt. Realising that I had broken not one but two taboos (feet-pointing and at the head), I immediately donned my best chastened-puppy look (I was genuinely feeling chastened) and utilised the high wai as apology. I didn't feel as if I was lightly forgiven and quite right too - it was one of those occasions when you ask yourself despairingly afterwards, 'How could I have done something so dumb?' Suphot didn't witness the incident and tutted with considerate mildness when I told him about it. If a strapping husband had been present methinks I might not be here to tell the tale now.

[Marsilius]

Yes, it's an interesting point.

Before I first visited Thailand 17 years ago, I read plenty of books in preparation. The advice there was quite specific - NEVER point a foot towards someone and NEVER touch the head. It did make normal human conduct appear fraught with dangers of commiting a social faux pas or even worse.

As you point out, however, the real position is far more nuanced than that and you need to take account of the physical and social context of either action. In all those years since, I've given up worrying about causing offence and, as far as I'm aware, none has ever been taken.

The foot pointing and the head touching things are blown waaaay out of proportion in those tourist books.

In regard to foot pointing, the thing that is verboten is using your foot to point at something, ie., as you would with your hand. It is NOT an issue to sit or stand simply with your foot pointing in the direction of something. How would you sit on the Skytrain if it were?

The taboo is against using your foot to do something that is usually done with the hand, ie. using your foot to gesture (point) at something, using your foot to kick a low drawer closed, etc.

The head touching thing is also way overblown. It may have been true 100 years ago, but not these days. Of course you would never pat an adult on the head, hopefully, even in your own country. But I see Thais patting kids on their heads ALL the time -- it is no longer a big deal. Adults are different, though, which is why if you are having a massage the masseur will often wai you and/or say excuse me before he touches your head.

Now just to broaden the discussion - way back (2002?) - I was in a gogo bar which had a show. I was wearing a hat and after the show started it got rather warm so I took my hat off and placed it on the floor (where else!)

Well apparently this was"offensive" and indicative of a "no good show"

Any confirmation?

:dontknow: :dontknow:

[Thai Dyed]

I know this really gets them pissed off:

[attachment=0:1yai6b4b]Offensive foot action.jpg[/attachment:1yai6b4b]

[Brad the Impala]

Now just to broaden the discussion - way back (2002?) - I was in a gogo bar which had a show. I was wearing a hat and after the show started it got rather warm so I took my hat off and placed it on the floor (where else!)



On a table? on a chair? on the bar? on your lap?

Putting something on the floor, that would be expected to be subsequently put on your head, combines the taboos described in this thread, except that you are doing it to yourself!

Even without thai customs, I can't imagine keeping my hat on the floor! I should think that they thought that you were beyond the pale.

And all these years later you still haven't worked that out?!

[pong]

2 points that somewhat add to the formner, or explain:
1.stepping OVER someone, or even ''only'' over her/his legs is really not done.
2.this fenomenon seems far more lively under the Lao and Isan-people as those from other regions. I remember some Lao really insulted when in the USA someone pointed out his feet to him-completely unaware of the culture shock implications this would invoke. Among the Chinese (and many of the Thai are half Chinese etc.) its hardly an issue.

[cdnmatt]

Now just to broaden the discussion - way back (2002?) - I was in a gogo bar which had a show. I was wearing a hat and after the show started it got rather warm so I took my hat off and placed it on the floor (where else!)

I know about the head thing, but I'm actually a little curious about the floor thing. Is there a specific taboo against that one in Thailand, or something?

When I take my clothes off, I always just naturally throw them on the floor. Almost every time though, within 10 minutes their gone, and I'm wandering around trying to find them again. Kim will always grab them, and put them up on a table or chair, or in the closet. Is there some type of taboo with the floor, or does he just think it's dirty, or is it simply because Thailand has lots of ants, or???

Well, you never put something that is valued or holy on the floor, or even near the floor -- like a Buddha statue or amulet, etc. First time I've heard anything about hats.

......

On a table? on a chair? on the bar? on your lap?

Putting something on the floor, that would be expected to be subsequently put on your head, combines the taboos described in this thread, except that you are doing it to yourself!

Even without thai customs, I can't imagine keeping my hat on the floor! I should think that they thought that you were beyond the pale.

And all these years later you still haven't worked that out?!

Oh for God's sake - it was a gogo bar, it was packed, there was no space on the bench-style seating to either side , the "table" i.e, ledge was full of drinks. If I had put it on my lap it would have fallen on the floor eventually anyway so I placed it there, under the "table"

That's "beyond the pale" to you, is it?

:occasion9:

[Beachlover]

The foot pointing and the head touching things are blown waaaay out of proportion in those tourist books.

Thanks... This whole explanation is very helpful to clarify.

I've had to step over Thai people lyng or sitting on the floor a couple of times but have always been extremely mindful... make eye contact with them first, indicate that I need to get past/over them (e.g. to get to the toilet door) and get a nod and smile from them before proceeding in Thalland... where as in the West I would probably just step over them without a second thought.

[Beachlover]

When I take my clothes off, I always just naturally throw them on the floor. Almost every time though, within 10 minutes their gone, and I'm wandering around trying to find them again. Kim will always grab them, and put them up on a table or chair, or in the closet. Is there some type of taboo with the floor, or does he just think it's dirty, or is it simply because Thailand has lots of ants, or???

Heh... that is cute. Your BF wants to take care of you.

I think it's a habit derived from environment. We are all used to living in nice houses with tile/carpet/polished wood floors. Putting stuff on the floor is no problem. It's relatively clean.

But when you grow up in a wooden hut with a dirt floor or a basic building with bare concrete floors or maybe cheap plastic/canvas sheets as floor coverings you don't tend to want to have ANYTHING touch the floor, let alone clothes. You actually make an effort to keep everything nice and clean.

So to your BF... even though you might have a nice tile or carpet floor now... it just doesn't feel right when something is on the floor. He needs to pick it up and hang it or put it somewhere proper.

[byjos]

The only thing, I know, is very bad to do is: throwing or put money on the floor, then u have a big problem because the King's portret is on it. Also books are not done.

The only thing, I know, is very bad to do is: throwing or put money on the floor, then u have a big problem because the King's portret is on it. Also books are not done.

Yes, as I said, things that are respected or valued. Portraits of the King are in that category. Not sure about books, because I've seen them strewn on the floor of many a Thai boy's quarters.

[colmx]

1.stepping OVER someone, or even ''only'' over her/his legs is really not done.
.
To Add to Pongs advice...

Not only should you not step over people... you should not step over animals either...

All those lazy Soi dogs collapsed on the pavements... gotta walk around them not over them!
(even if that means stepping out into traffic!

Luckily there seems to be no quaint Thai customs prohibiting the display of the erect penis from a stage and whilst wearing white briefs with a number thereon.

Nor do there appear to be any which forbid frenzied bouncing on the farang cock, in pursuit of unspecified sums of money.

Phew!


:occasion9:

[Smiles]

" ... I know about the head thing, but I'm actually a little curious about the floor thing. Is there a specific taboo against that one in Thailand, or something?
When I take my clothes off, I always just naturally throw them on the floor. Almost every time though, within 10 minutes their gone ... Kim will always grab them, and put them up on a table or chair, or in the closet. Is there some type of taboo with the floor, or does he just think it's dirty, or is it simply because Thailand has lots of ants, or??? ... "
Just as the head is the highest and most honoured part of the body, the soles of one's feet are the lowest, dirtiest, most disgusting part of the body. That's why one should never point at a person with the foot (who does that anyway?), and it's why your boyfriend picks up the clothes you toss all over the floor ... you insensitive clod :tard:
Makes sense to me.

Agree somewhat with FF regarding the farang tendency to take Thai 'rules' a little too seriously. All you have to do is look around at Thai men (mostly) on the Skytrain. Many of those insensitive clods sit with crossed legs ~ the more manly, higher cross ~ blatantly exposing the soles of their shoes to everyone in the train car.

Thailand's social strictures are often nothing if not a moveable feast . . . which may go some length towards explaining why the murder rate is so high in such a gentle, peace-loving, soft-talking Buddhist nation.

[Surfcrest]

The Feet
Feet are sometimes called тАЬmeu fa rangтАЭ {Westerners hands}, so often do Westerners unconsciously use them for things besides walking. Feet are considered the basest part of the body and are thought to be dirty тАЬso ga bhrokтАЭ. The Thai apologize if their foot must be shown to another; for instance, if it is wounded. Pointing the sole of the foot at anyone is equivalent of flipping someone тАЬthe birdтАЭ or giving them тАЬthe fingerтАЭ, an extreme insult. When sitting in a chair тАЬman styleтАЭ, with oneтАЩs leg crossed over the other, the foot should be pointed to the floor (polite Thai men who sit this way keep their hand on their foot to ensure that the sole is protected against othersтАЩ view).

The feet must never be used to point at anything or anyone. DonтАЩt allow them to touch anyone. Void the impulse to use furniture as foot rests or to open a door with a foot. No one should be stepped over; ask the person to move. Never step over anything (bags, boxes, a coffee table), unless it is something that should be on the ground.

The above excerpt is from Eric AllynтАЩs WYSIWYS Thai Phrase Book.(Not sure if it's still in print)

It's already been said already, this sort of thing sometimes gets blown way out of proportion. Knowing this and practising it can sometimes show your Thai host great respect by showing youтАЩve taken the time to find out about good Thai manners and the respect to demonstrate them where practicable. We sometimes make the same judgement in how our guests are raised by how they choose their tableware at dinner.

IтАЩve also found that the foot is considered dirty more so in villages where the walking conditions may be considerably different than the city.

[PeterUK]

I like the Eric Allyn excerpt; a good summary of how not to put one's foot in it (or over it etc). Must try to recall more of it next time I'm in an Isaan market. :8(

[Beachlover]

When I take my clothes off, I always just naturally throw them on the floor. Almost every time though, within 10 minutes their gone ... Kim will always grab them, and put them up on a table or chair, or in the closet. Is there some type of taboo with the floor, or does he just think it's dirty, or is it simply because Thailand has lots of ants, or???[/i] ... "
it's why your boyfriend picks up the clothes you toss all over the floor ... you insensitive clod :tard:


Yeah... bad husband *smack* :blackeye:

[Beachlover]

Luckily there seems to be no quaint Thai customs prohibiting the display of the erect penis from a stage and whilst wearing white briefs with a number thereon.

Nor do there appear to be any which forbid frenzied bouncing on the farang cock, in pursuit of unspecified sums of money.

Phew!


:occasion9:

No Thai custom against making money...

Westerners also like to be respected by other nationalities: things that come to mind that they don't like people doing in front of them are, spitting, picking their nose, to name a couple. Any others you guys. What don't YOU like to see someone do in front of you irrespective of where they are from?

Westerners also like to be respected by other nationalities: things that come to mind that they don't like people doing in front of them are, spitting, picking their nose, to name a couple. Any others you guys. What don't YOU like to see someone do in front of you irrespective of where they are from?

You mean a foreigner when they are visiting my home country? I have no right to expect them to change their behavior anywhere else.

.....What don't YOU like to see someone do in front of you irrespective of where they are from?


Fat farang customers openly masturbating.

For this reason I religiously avoid BKK's "Golden Cock" bar

:hello1: :hello1:

.....What don't YOU like to see someone do in front of you irrespective of where they are from?


Fat farang customers openly masturbating.

For this reason I religiously avoid BKK's "Golden Cock" bar

:hello1: :hello1:

Agreed, especially when they unintentionally "unload" in your direction!!