Thai family structure

[cdnmatt]

This is one of the many things I admire and respect about Thai people. The way they view and treat the family unit. Last night, Kim and myself were out drinking Thai whiskey at one of those stalls again (hence why I'm posting so much this morning -- only slept a few hours, still drunk, and can't work until I have a nap). We ended up chatting about family structure, and he was basically appauled to the Canadian approach.

I explained to him that not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.

Kim was actually quite disgusted when I explained this to him, and didn't really seem to understand why family would treat each other like that. And honestly, I have to agree with him. It is pretty disgusting. You know, when Kim explains what his family has, he always says "WE" have. He never says "mama" has, or "papa" has, etc. It's always WE have a rice farm, and WE have 40 chickens, and WE have 7 buffalo, and WE have a small convenience store, etc. It's not mama or papa's company, but the families. When the parents get older, Kim and his siblings will naturally take over, and some of the profits will flow to mama and papa to take of them during their older years.

I honestly very much admire that, and wish it was more like that in the West. I know it's like that in Issan because it's far more poor, and is moreless a means of survival, but nonetheless, I like how they take care of each other like that.

Thoughts? Stories? Ok, I'll shut up now, and go sleep.

[Surfcrest]

I explained to him that not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.


With the exception of the nobody helps each other part, you are bang on with this one.......and I like it that way.
IтАЩm guessing Thailand wouldnтАЩt have as many nursing / retirement homesтАж.unless you consider Thailand itself as one great big one.

[Art]

┬╗Until modern times, kinship meant common economic interests. According to Durkheim (1921), all domestic societies, except the conjugal family are based on "family communism:" Property and other economic resources are shared by the kin group. Family communism no longer works as it once did because of the individualism built into the conjugal family. In traditional society, property dominated personal life. Attachment to the land and family property for its symbolic as well as economic importance took precedence over individual desires :-) and ambitions.┬л
Mary Ann Lamanna. Emile Durkheim on the Family (2001)

┬╗In traditional societies, the close proximity to kin was considered a valuable feature of oneтАЩs home both in terms of physical and economic security. Close proximity to kin was often implemented by the sharing of the same physical compound or the same house by members of the extended family. As societies become economically and socially more diverse, heads of nuclear families within the extended family earn a living in a wider variety of occupations and locations. This process together with changes in the value of privacy, authority and hierarchy within the family, have led to the setting up of independent homes by nuclear and three-generation families thus changing the composition of domestic households everywhere. The average number of persons in domestic households is a good indicator of such a change. Graph 12 illustrates the progressive decline in the average size of domestic households in the ten Asian countries from 1980 to 2000. I include the United Kingdom and the United States as interesting illustrations of the global nature of this change.┬л http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/family/Publications/mtquah.pdf

[Beachlover]

Last night, Kim and myself were out drinking Thai whiskey at one of those stalls again (hence why I'm posting so much this morning -- only slept a few hours, still drunk, and can't work until I have a nap). .

Wow... you make more sense when you're drunk than LMTU when he's sober. :blackeye:

(Sorry... cheap shot, I know... but hard to resist)

Wow... you make more sense when you're drunk than LMTU when he's sober. :blackeye:

You think LMTU is ever sober?

[Beachlover]

Interesting observations and thoughts... But I personally don't think there's anything exotically superior about this approach to ownership/wealth in Isaan families.

Asian families simply have a more collective culture than Western families, which are generally (but not always) more individual.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this being "better". It sounds sweet and lovely but there are many downsides as well.

* When you share things amongst a family/group individuals get lazy and often don't achieve as much as they could have if they had individual incentive/motivation.

* The culture can lead to the children being less independent and rugged... perhaps not so much in poorer families but certainly in middle-class (doing ok) families.

* Few people have the drive to achieve much if they have this comfortable cacoon around them. It's nice to be looked after... but you really need to be out of your comfort zone (i.e. pretty uncomfortable) to take the risks and sweat it out to your full potential. How many entrepreneurs do you see from dirt poor backgrounds who use that intense discomfort to make massive fortunes... only to raise kids with little business sense and no ability to continue growing the wealth built by their parents?

I grew up in an Asian family. When I was young I was told... oh, if you work hard at school, we'll give you a car... help you buy your own place etc... everything you see around you (the house etc.) will be yours one day... You'll inherit everything.

But growing up in Western culture (with Asian parents), I just thought... no... I'd rather get out there and make these things happen for myself. My parents soon realised I wasn't interested in these things... I just wanted to get out there and making it happen for myself.

I see a lot of Asian families where the kids are showered with stuff... they're at uni driving $40k cars... being given an allowance and all. And I think... none of these kids have any idea what it takes to get out there and earn that kind of money. Some of them end up developing that drive/ability to make it on their own... but many just end up being pretty mediocre. I don't hold it against them and I don't go yelling "spoilt kids"... I just think it's a shame they're never let out of their comfort zone.

As an Asian kid... this collective culture has some personal downsides:

* For poor families... the kids can have an enormous burden getting out there and making money to feed their families... we've all seen this.

* For wealthier families... the "allowance" comes with conditions. You have to do what your (very conservative/traditional) parents tell you... In many cases it makes it difficult to be yourself and make your own decisions... take risks... follow your own passion.

I like the Asian culture of looking after your elders and being responsible for looking after your parents. But don't assume this is nicer than the Western value of self sufficiency.

If you're talking to someone Asian (like your Isaan boy)... it's natural that they be shocked and maybe disgusted by Western family ways. The one thing that really puts them off is often, in the West, they see the elderly being ignored and neglected. Families live far away from their grandparents... often left alone... almost like they're a nuisance (see The Simpsons) In an Asian family... the kids feel a strong sense of responsibility to look after the parents as they get older. When there's only one parent left... they will almost always move in with their children.

I guess just explain the Western ways in a more positive light... point out the flaws (especially the elderly thing)... but I wouldn't jump to conclusions about one being better than the other.

My Thai boyfriend is baffled by the fact that I've not seen my brother for five years and when my father was alive he couldn't understand why he lived on his own at the age of 90. I've also never met my niece's husband which is beyond his comprehension. But he lives surrounded by his relatives and I don't.

He takes great pride in remembering the names of all my close relatives and is actually more interested in them than I am.

The ironic thing is that although he's part of a family network some of his relatives actually treat him very badly and I'm not that impressed with some of their behaviour.

When we visit any of his family a present is almost always required and he will send presents to my friends, who he's never met, but who I've spoken of.

I don't think anybody can ever understand someone else's family and add the extra complications of cultural differences and it's a mine field.

...not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.

How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

[Brad the Impala]

...not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.

How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

How fortunate they are too!

[Surfcrest]

...not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.

How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

тАжтАж.here we go again :duel:

Are you trying to incite something between the different nationalities that make up the membership of this forum?

Why donтАЩt you try just commenting about the postтАж.rather than baiting an argument like this? There were actually a lot of good discussions here while you were away on your mini self imposed exile.

ItтАЩs too bad now, after only a few posts that youтАЩre already into this.

[Beachlover]

...not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.

How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

*Slap*

[cdnmatt]

...not always, but in general, if your parents own a company, it's THEIR company. And alot of times when the parents get older, they'll sell the company, and use the money for their retirement to buy a nice house, go on holidays, etc. At the same time, as children, we're not expected to help our parents in any shape or form. Once we're adults, we're on our own, and nobody helps each other.

How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

You're just jealous, because Canadians are better liked around the world than Brits. :P

Not to mention, for a country that isn't even 170 years old yet, I think we've done quite well for ourselves, thank you very much.

[Art]

D├йj├а les Anglais se mettaient en possession des meilleures terres et des plus avantageusement situ├йes qu'on puisse poss├йder dans l'Am├йrique septentrionale au del├а de la Floride, quand deux ou trois marchands de Normandie, sur la l├йg├иre esp├йrance d'un petit commerce de pelleterie, ├йquip├иrent quelques vaisseaux, et ├йtablirent une colonie dans le Canada, pays couvert de neiges et de glaces huit mois de l'ann├йe, habit├й par des barbares, des ours et des castors. Cette terre, d├йcouverte auparavant, d├иs l'an 1535, avait ├йt├й abandonn├йe ; mais enfin, apr├иs plusieurs tentatives, mal appuy├йes par un gouvernement qui n'avait point de marine, une petite compagnie de marchands de Dieppe et Saint-Malo fonda Qu├йbec, en 1608, cтАЩest-├а-dire b├вtit quelques cabanes; et ces cabanes ne sont devenues une ville que sous Louis XIV.



How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

Laconic brevity and politeness are not mutually exclusive. Anti-Canadianism? Not at all.
╨з╤В╨╛ ╤А╤Г╤Б╤Б╨║╨╛╨╝╤Г ╤Е╨╛╤А╨╛╤И╨╛, ╤В╨╛ ╨╜╨╡╨╝╤Ж╤Г ╤Б╨╝╨╡╤А╤В╤М.

Asian families simply have a more collective culture than Western families, which are generally (but not always) more individual.Was that always the case Beachlover or does it reflect that Western families live in societies that have been industrialised far longer, are far more mobile (both socially and geographically) and have robust social security systems? You have only to be in Bangkok around New Year to realise that upwards of half the population go "home" to the village at that time and that, therefore, they are first-generation city dwellers. As well Thailand is one of those countries where there's Bangkok and then there's the rest of the country, unlike a comparably-sized Western country (France, say) that has many, many large urban centres for roughly the same population. I suspect that the OP is under the influence of the idea of the noble savage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_savage).

[Brad the Impala]

Take my advise always look for an Orphan.

So that was what you were doing when you were down on your hands and knees.

[Beachlover]

You're just jealous, because Canadians are better liked around the world than Brits. :P

Yes, but that's only after people work out you're not American. :blackeye:

Matt,

I can't comment on families in Canada at all, or on Kim's family directly apart from what you have written about it here, but I can't help thinking that your view of family values East and West is a case of the grass being greener on the other side rather than logical conclusion - you make it look as if all is fine in the East while families are dysfunctional in the West, which is not even a reasonable generalisation.

I admit that I was fortunate enough to be raised in what some would see as a "privileged" way, by supportive parents, but I just cannot see any of those I knew either at school or as neighbours acting as selfishly as you described, although I am sure that it does happen. Many parents give up a great deal not only to ensure that their children got the best possible education (and 10 years at a good British preparatory and public school, not even considering university, costs in the region of ┬г250,000 plus per child) but that whatever assets they have (property, business interests, etc) would be passed on to the next generation.

Certainly many parents may end up being pushed out of the way to a home in the West, just as many parents may spend and enjoy what they have worked for during their retirement, but I think that there is a reasonable balance in most cases and that it is not quite such a bleak and selfish universal picture as you paint.

On the other hand, I do not think things are quite as rosy and idyllic on the Thai side as you describe here. While it is impossible to compare figures with any accuracy as Thai "marriages" are not registered as often as those in the West, divorce/separation, re-marriage, mia-nois, etc, are pretty well routine in all levels of Thai society, not least in Isaan families (including Kim's, which appears rather more "together" here than it did elsewhere, and in my partner's).

While Kim may know all his relatives and visit his parents (separately, presumably) when he can, remember that it was they who were at least happy for him to leave school (and them) at the earliest opportunity to join a traveling luuk tung show, giving him a minimal chance of finding any decent salaried employment other than menial or manual work for the rest of his life. As soon as he was old enough they again, along with many Isaan families, appear equally happy for him to have become a prostitute - as long, of course, as he supported them financially. Without re-starting the debate on the stigma of prostitution in the East and West, or the need for "paper" education in Thailand, I really cannot see how any of this can be seen as a sign of a successful "family unit".

The idea of shared family ownership can also be rather deceptive - saying "WE have a rice farm, and WE have 40 chickens, and WE have 7 buffalo, and WE have a small convenience store, etc" is often just a matter of translation not meant to be taken literally - such as "come to MY bar".

The values are different, just as the ways of life are different; to cite one as being any better than the other is being short-sighted at best.

...not always, but in general, ....... nobody helps each other.

How fortunate I am that I was not born a Canadian.

тАжтАж.here we go again :duel:

Are you trying to incite something between the different nationalities that make up the membership of this forum?

No, I am trying to make something called a joke - something that everyone else who reacted, even Brad and BL, appeared to realise, responding in kind ( I actually found Brad's rather Churchillian and amusing, for a change). That you didn't, and that you noticed that I had not posted for a whole three days and commented on my absence, says far more about you than I need to.


(and Art, yes, one man's joke is indeed another man's incitement)

[Beachlover]

That was a joke? Goodness. Wake us up when the next one's ready.

[Surfcrest]

That you didn't, and that you noticed that I had not posted for a whole three days and commented on my absence, says far more about you than I need to.


It's kind of like dog shit on the sidewalk...nice having a whole three days of not having to navigate around it.

[cdnmatt]

That you didn't, and that you noticed that I had not posted for a whole three days and commented on my absence, says far more about you than I need to.


It's kind of like dog shit on the sidewalk...nice having a whole three days of not having to navigate around it.

I'm assuming your bitchy mood as of late means your now back in canada?

Beachlover wrote: Interesting observations and thoughts... But I personally don't think there's anything exotically superior about this approach to ownership/wealth in Isaan families.

Asian families simply have a more collective culture than Western families, which are generally (but not always) more individual.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about this being "better". It sounds sweet and lovely but there are many downsides as well.

* When you share things amongst a family/group individuals get lazy and often don't achieve as much as they could have if they had individual incentive/motivation.

* The culture can lead to the children being less independent and rugged... perhaps not so much in poorer families but certainly in middle-class (doing ok) families.

* Few people have the drive to achieve much if they have this comfortable cacoon around them. It's nice to be looked after... but you really need to be out of your comfort zone (i.e. pretty uncomfortable) to take the risks and sweat it out to your full potential. How many entrepreneurs do you see from dirt poor backgrounds who use that intense discomfort to make massive fortunes... only to raise kids with little business sense and no ability to continue growing the wealth built by their parents?

I grew up in an Asian family. When I was young I was told... oh, if you work hard at school, we'll give you a car... help you buy your own place etc... everything you see around you (the house etc.) will be yours one day... You'll inherit everything.

But growing up in Western culture (with Asian parents), I just thought... no... I'd rather get out there and make these things happen for myself. My parents soon realised I wasn't interested in these things... I just wanted to get out there and making it happen for myself.

I see a lot of Asian families where the kids are showered with stuff... they're at uni driving $40k cars... being given an allowance and all. And I think... none of these kids have any idea what it takes to get out there and earn that kind of money. Some of them end up developing that drive/ability to make it on their own... but many just end up being pretty mediocre. I don't hold it against them and I don't go yelling "spoilt kids"... I just think it's a shame they're never let out of their comfort zone.

As an Asian kid... this collective culture has some personal downsides:

* For poor families... the kids can have an enormous burden getting out there and making money to feed their families... we've all seen this.

* For wealthier families... the "allowance" comes with conditions. You have to do what your (very conservative/traditional) parents tell you... In many cases it makes it difficult to be yourself and make your own decisions... take risks... follow your own passion.

I like the Asian culture of looking after your elders and being responsible for looking after your parents. But don't assume this is nicer than the Western value of self sufficiency.

If you're talking to someone Asian (like your Isaan boy)... it's natural that they be shocked and maybe disgusted by Western family ways. The one thing that really puts them off is often, in the West, they see the elderly being ignored and neglected. Families live far away from their grandparents... often left alone... almost like they're a nuisance (see The Simpsons) In an Asian family... the kids feel a strong sense of responsibility to look after the parents as they get older. When there's only one parent left... they will almost always move in with their children.

I guess just explain the Western ways in a more positive light... point out the flaws (especially the elderly thing)... but I wouldn't jump to conclusions about one being better than the other.

I also grew up in an Asian family; both my parents were born in Korea as was I but we emigrated to the USA after the Korean War and I have lived and worked in both Korea and America before retiring to Thailand several years ago.

I grew up a child of privilege; Father built up a sizable business before I was a teenager but I was unaware of his wealth as our circumstances really never changed until at age 13 he sat me down and drew out a picture of future he saw for me. They allowed me to make my own decision to buy into the whole idea and I did. After I graduated, one of the youngest ever to get an advanced degree, and completed my time in the army, I worked for him in both Seoul and San Francisco and after his death took over the company and built it on behalf of my mother and I until she died in 1994.

Several years later, after I sold the company, I returned to America on a full time basis and went back to school to begin to build a story that was uniquely mine and free from family expectations.

There was no possible way that I could not have joined the company but not because the pressure was intense but because it was the right thing to do and I am eternally grateful that I did. I was able to help the man I modeled my life after achieve a great goal and was able to help provide opportunity for our extended family. Even while supporting his dream, which became mine, I was still able to have my own dreams and at 30 came out to them, a particularly difficult time for me but to my surprise, not for them as they had been preparing for my revelation for several years and had worked everything through with the help of a family friend who was a therapist and quietly gay.

In my experience, the Asian family experience is more of a cooperative model with the understanding that it is somewhat socialist; from each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

Overlay that with the understanding that no-one is 100% good or 100% bad but a mixture of both and you get a supportive environment that is prepared to forgive all but the most egregious actions and you get a dynamic that allows individual creativity with a safety net so long as everyone understands that they must somehow contribute to the shared good.

[Surfcrest]

(hence why I'm posting so much this morning -- only slept a few hours, still drunk, and can't work until I have a nap).


I'm assuming your bitchy mood as of late means your now back in canada?

hahaha...... :bot: how's that drinking thing working for you?

One thing I haven't seen raised on this thread is the connection between the family unit dynamic in stable, inward-oriented cultures and ones that have been colonial and expansionist-oriented.

Simply put, in America, as I would assume it was in Canada and Australia, our family unites are mightly defined by the pressure and urge to move on, to stake out new claims, expand Westward or whatever. Homesteading meant leaving the family unit behind, striking out on your own. In Thailand, with no new lands to settle, it is more natural to treat your family land as collective. Afterall, there's not much of a chance that you may ever have another opportunity to move or acquire a new plot. This might also the case with world colonialism in the same sense.

The other powerful dynamic may have to do with the migration to the urban centers, which has been raised here a bit. In places like China it is having the effect of dissolving the family ties and making it harder to keep traditional ways of family life.

But for Americans we have a 400 year history of forever moving westward, first from Europe into the colonies, then Westward across the Plains. Our concept of family unit is not based on sharing our material possessions, its just that simple.

[Beachlover]

I also grew up in an Asian family; both my parents were born in Korea as was I but we emigrated to the USA after the Korean War and I have lived and worked in both Korea and America before retiring to Thailand several years ago.

I grew up a child of privilege; Father built up a sizable business before I was a teenager but I was unaware of his wealth as our circumstances really never changed until at age 13 he sat me down and drew out a picture of future he saw for me. They allowed me to make my own decision to buy into the whole idea and I did. After I graduated, one of the youngest ever to get an advanced degree, and completed my time in the army, I worked for him in both Seoul and San Francisco and after his death took over the company and built it on behalf of my mother and I until she died in 1994.

Several years later, after I sold the company, I returned to America on a full time basis and went back to school to begin to build a story that was uniquely mine and free from family expectations.

There was no possible way that I could not have joined the company but not because the pressure was intense but because it was the right thing to do and I am eternally grateful that I did. I was able to help the man I modeled my life after achieve a great goal and was able to help provide opportunity for our extended family. Even while supporting his dream, which became mine, I was still able to have my own dreams and at 30 came out to them, a particularly difficult time for me but to my surprise, not for them as they had been preparing for my revelation for several years and had worked everything through with the help of a family friend who was a therapist and quietly gay.

In my experience, the Asian family experience is more of a cooperative model with the understanding that it is somewhat socialist; from each according to his ability; to each according to his need.

Overlay that with the understanding that no-one is 100% good or 100% bad but a mixture of both and you get a supportive environment that is prepared to forgive all but the most egregious actions and you get a dynamic that allows individual creativity with a safety net so long as everyone understands that they must somehow contribute to the shared good.

Really interesting tale and a very perspective on Asian families Ken... the bit about them preparing for our revelation for several years was very touching. Incredible.

I think cultures and values adapt as their environments necessitates... though, sometimes not quick enough to adapt to changing landscapes.

But for Americans we have a 400 year history of forever moving westward, first from Europe into the colonies, then Westward across the Plains. Our concept of family unit is not based on sharing our material possessions, its just that simple.

I thought your present practice was moving eastward, and that your concept was based on sharing others' material possessions?

(and for the benefit of those who can't follow it, that was also not meant to be taken too seriously - at least on this forum).



....... Surfcrest ...... I'm assuming your bitchy mood as of late means your now back in canada?

Does Canada really have that effect on people? I was beginning to think that it was some sort of psychotic reaction from a spurned wannabe suitor.

(and before I get accused of trying to "incite something", I wasn't the one to spell Canada with a small 'c')

I thought your present practice was moving eastward, and that your concept was based on sharing others' material possessions?

You got that right! (and I took it as a wry comment, no worries)

I think every situation is different at any particular point in time. I certainly was attracted to two major aspects of the pan-Asian culture:

1) Respect for elders.
2) Respect of others as it relates to saving face.

When I'm in the West I feel completely disposable, old and out of place when in any hip young venue or gathering. In Asia I feel comfortable and welcome anywhere, that my age is not a problem. I can't imagine any young Asians tossing a 'what are you doing here, old man??' comment at me, yet I've been the recipient of that kind of attitude many times back home. (and I'm merely middle aged)

I think that it is the ancestor worship dynamic that makes the Asian cultures so delightful for us older fellows. That's a huge reason why I reversed course and went East (though if you move West far enough you eventually find Asia anyway..)!

[Surfcrest]

Does Canada really have that effect on people? I was beginning to think that it was some sort of psychotic reaction from a spurned wannabe suitor.


You know, I'm not going to stoop to your level. The Canadians here have their own reasons for not chirping in with your blatant swipes. Pussies!
I'm guessing that most are smart enough to have put you on their Foe / Ingnore list already.
I also presume the "psychotic reaction from a spurned wannabe suitor " was directed towards me. Bravo!

You know, I read that long narrative in my Hong Kong thread about how important you were when you lived there and how beautiful you must be to have had a young man in Ocean Terminal virtually beg you to pick him up. Well good on you Gone Fishing! Allow me to be one of the many to stand up and pat you on the back for being so amazing.

http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=19023

Personally I donтАЩt know why anyone in an anonymous forum would feel the need to reveal so many personal details about themselves. IтАЩve told you before it sounds a lot like someone feeling the need to pre-qualify themselves in advance on the topic they are about to write about. ThatтАЩs something IтАЩve never felt the need to do (except with the infamous View Talay 7 Thread) and surely we're free to present whatever we like in whatever way we want and how you do it is your business.

I find it difficult to connect the person who communicates in the condescending manner that you do, with the name calling juvenile tactics that have made you so unpopular here and the beautiful, successful person you describe of yourselfтАжrescuing Vietnamese Boat people etcтАж.

[Beachlover]

Decrepit and bitter is more like it...

[giggsy]

Decrepit and bitter is more like it...
Oh here we go again BL jumping in on the band wagon.1st it was LMTU now Gone Fishing.I used to enjoy your posts but now it seems that YOU are the one that is bitter.Its easy ,if you don't like a poster press the foe function.I enjoy all contributions.I dont agree with 50 % but thats what makes SGT the best forum around.sometimes it educates you sometimes it annoys you and sometimes it makes to piss yourself through laughing but I for one wouldn't change it or want anyone to stop posting.I have yet to understand one of ARTS posts but i wouldn't want him to stop posting. :read2:

[TrongpaiExpat]

.........Personally I donтАЩt know why anyone in an anonymous forum would feel the need to reveal so many personal details about themselves. ...........

It's not strictly an anonymous forum. Some poster are quite well know, some are infamous and others are know to some on a selective basis.

As to what someone anonymous or not wants to reveal about his personal life that should be up to him.

Oh here we go again BL jumping in on the band wagon.1st it was LMTU now Gone Fishing.I used to enjoy your posts but now it seems that YOU are the one that is bitter.Its easy ,if you don't like a poster press the foe function.I enjoy all contributions.I dont agree with 50 % but thats what makes SGT the best forum around.sometimes it educates you sometimes it annoys you and sometimes it makes to piss yourself through laughing but I for one wouldn't change it or want anyone to stop posting.I have yet to understand one of ARTS posts but i wouldn't want him to stop posting. :read2:

He's only a boy giggsy and has a long way to go yet

[giggsy]

You mean a long way to go before he gets as bitter and twisted as the rest of us ? :web:

[Beachlover]

Decrepit and bitter is more like it...
Oh here we go again BL jumping in on the band wagon.1st it was LMTU now Gone Fishing.I used to enjoy your posts but now it seems that YOU are the one that is bitter.Its easy ,if you don't like a poster press the foe function.I enjoy all contributions.I dont agree with 50 % but thats what makes SGT the best forum around.sometimes it educates you sometimes it annoys you and sometimes it makes to piss yourself through laughing but I for one wouldn't change it or want anyone to stop posting.I have yet to understand one of ARTS posts but i wouldn't want him to stop posting. :read2:

Jumping on the bandwagon? You might see it as that but I don't take a personal shot at anyone unless they take a shot at me (LMTU/BU)... or if I think they're being particularly insulting/dickheaded to another member who doesn't deserve it (GF). GF's started right on the "being a dickhead" trail since he came back so I think it's fair for other members help balance it out... though you might disagree.

I don't understand much of Art's posts either but he was deranged enough to accuse me of being Beach Bunny/Chao Na once so that's no surprise :-)

You mean a long way to go before he gets as bitter and twisted as the rest of us ? :web:

Hopefully, a long, long way...

GF's started right on the "being a dickhead" trail since he came back

Came back from where? When? What are you talking about? What do you ever talk about?


... or if I think they're being particularly insulting/dickheaded to another member who doesn't deserve it (GF).

But they do deserve it!! ... and don't you think that they can stand up for themselves without your help?

Surfcrest, my congratulations - you are the only one who has ever come near to making Brad look not only positively mature but well-informed, observant and even rational.

You really don't "know" very much - I have never claimed to be "successful" (although I was undoubtedly successful in my limited field), I have certainly never been "beautiful" (good God, where do you get these ideas from??), and I have never "rescued" any Vietnamese Boat people!

Your "guessing" is similarly off target - your fellow Canadians appear to at least have the intelligence to realise what is light-hearted and what is not, and not to have me "on their Foe / Ingnore list" - that would prevent the many mutually informative and very cordial PMs we have exchanged (although we may not always appear to be so cordial in public!).

You could not have read that "long narrative" in your otherwise incredily boring guide to HK very thoroughly, otherwise you would have seen that it was because I was NOT "so beautiful" (even nearly 20 years ago) that it was "so amazing"! "Important" in HK? I don't know where you got that idea from, but then I don't know where you get most of your ideas from.

I could hardly agree with you more about anonymity though, as I have said at considerable length elsewhere (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/posting-guidelines-and-discussion-f11/anonymity-t15161.html), which makes your point on "someone feeling the need to pre-qualify themselves in advance" all the more asinine (although I admit I would find it difficult to pre-qualify myself in arrears). It is obviously impossible to please everybody as I am usually accused of the opposite and of "scouring the net" instead to back up what I say.

The only times when I introduce any specific personal details, and then only in outline, is when another poster contradicts me on the basis that he has more experience in that particular subject than I do and questions my own experience - prime examples being BL and the use of abseiling/climbing equipment, where it would have been impossible for him to have had similar experience or to have been similarly qualified at his age, even if it had been his full time profession, and Bob and his utterly nonsensical posts about firearms. While you or they may find it hard to accept that you really don't have a clue what you are talking about in these instances, and it gives you some consolation to support each other in your ignorance and to denigrate me, that does not make your posts any more valid.

Its easy, if you don't like a poster press the foe function...

but giggsy, that would mean they wouldn't have any excuse for all these "bitter/deranged/insulting/dickheaded/condescending/juvenile etc, etc" posts, then they wouldn't have anything to talk about and they wouldn't have any friends!

[Art]

I don't understand much of Art's posts either but he was deranged enough to accuse me of being Beach Bunny/Chao Na once so that's no surprise :-)
This was my homage to Beach Bunny at the end of a longer post about this forum:



http://members.fortunecity.com/dorge/ubcjujutsu/throw.gif

Question to Radio Yerevan: ┬╗Is it true that Mr Elephantspike pays our forum saint Mr Beach Bunny for his sheepdog services to prevent circulatory problems of the heart and the blood vessels on the part of the forum members, with funds originating from the activities of Mr Crazy Dragon?┬л

Radio Yerevan answers: ┬╗It is true, but Mr Elephantspike does not pay him, and it is not Mr Beach Bunny but Mr Beachlover, and he is not a natural person but the product of the new Forum Entertainment Software, and he does not provide sheepdog but anaesthetic services, and he does not prevent but promote circulatory problems, because the software-based sharp teeth predicted by Mr Alan Turing are not yet operational, due to persistent problems with artificial intelligence.┬л


I don't understand much of Art's posts either but he was deranged enough to accuse me of being Beach Bunny/Chao Na once so that's no surprise :-)
A. I have never accused anyone of being someone else.

B. It follows that if there is derangement it must reside elsewhere.

C. I explained Beachlover's innumerable posts as the products of a new type of forum software that still lacks artificial intelligence.

D. It was an homage to Beach Bunny, of course!

E. HomтЛЕage /╦Иh╔Тm╔кd╩Т, ╦И╔Тm-/ тАУnoun 1. respect or reverence paid or rendered: In his speech he paid homage to Washington and Jefferson. 2. the formal public acknowledgment by which a feudal tenant or vassal declared himself to be the man or vassal of his lord, owing him fealty and service. 3. the relation thus established of a vassal to his lord. 4. something done or given in acknowledgment or consideration of the worth of another: a Festschrift presented as an homage to a great teacher. Origin: 1250тАУ1300; ME (h)omage < OF, equiv. to (h)ome man (< L hominem, acc. of hom┼Н; see Homo ) + -age -age Synonyms: 1. deference, obeisance; honor, tribute. 3. fidelity, loyalty, devotion. Antonyms: 1. irreverence. 3. disloyalty.

F. My post followed Beach Bunny's, and of course he understood everything and never complained. Compare Beachlover's reaction in that thread: (On page 2 of http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand-f9/how-survive-the-sawatee-forum-t18072-15.html)

G. Giggsy, I appreciate your tolerance. Rarissime. By the way, you were right with the declaration of war, an explanation will follow sooner or later. Later.

H. There is always someone who thinks that challenging the received wisdom means mental derangement. A protective mechanism of country bumpkin software?

I. Whoever comes to Asia must deal with ambiguity. Why not tolerate a bit of ambiguity here?

J.-Z. :->

[Beachlover]

Well, that's very nice of you to try and decipher yourself Art. I'm glad you cleared that up.

It's like an alien who's been sitting in the corner all this time starting to talk lol.

[Beachlover]

You mean a long way to go before he gets as bitter and twisted as the rest of us ? :web:

Hopefully, a long, long way...

More like never :-)

[Surfcrest]

You really don't "know" very much - I have never claimed to be "successful" (although I was undoubtedly successful in my limited field), I have certainly never been "beautiful" (good God, where do you get these ideas from??), and I have never "rescued" any Vietnamese Boat people!

You could not have read that "long narrative" in your otherwise incredily boring guide to HK very thoroughly, otherwise you would have seen that it was because I was NOT "so beautiful" (even nearly 20 years ago) that it was "so amazing"! "Important" in HK? I don't know where you got that idea from, but then I don't know where you get most of your ideas from.

The only times when I introduce any specific personal details, and then only in outline, is when another poster contradicts me on the basis that he has more experience in that particular subject than I do and questions my own experience

I doubt IтАЩll believe much of anything you write again.
I once complimented you by saying you seemed quite knowledgeable and well informed.
You say You really don't "know" very much....and yet you offer these lies to make your point?

Where do I get these ideas from? From you of course, courtesy of the search engine.
Here are some recent examples!
Voil├а!

Vietnamese Boat People

While you (and I) may "really cringe to think of some of the guys these boys have to spent intimate time with" we would also probably "cringe" at many of the other things they do and have done and take for granted as simply part of life. 25 years ago I unexpectedly found myself in charge of two boatloads of Vietnamese refugees; while the first were fishermen and "economic migrants" the second were "hi-so" (to use the Thai term - for example they all spoke fluent French). By the time their boat sank as they were being picked up by a passing tanker they had been stopped several times by pirates in the South China Seas; all the men had been thrown overboard and drowned, the women and children had been all been repeatedly raped, and they had been left adrift with no water, food or fuel. Physically they were in a very bad way, all had STDs, and out of an original 60 only 20 were left alive; although a few had emotional /mental problems (I remember two 7 year old twin boys were so traumatised they could not speak for the two months I was responsible for them), most rationalised it and looked on it as just part of life and better than the alternative at the time.


Self promotion / what a beauty GF wants us to believe he is.


Hong Kong boys? HK is one of the few places where I have been approached quite openly in public areas and for no apparent reason by young Asian "yuppies" - one of the funniest was in Ocean Terminal when one HK guy who was about 20 or 21 stepped in front of me on the escalator and simply asked "Hi, are you gay? Please say you are!"

and


A very valid point. I could never understand why women found me attractive and made no secret of it until I realised that women were probably far more aware of my sexual preference than men, for whatever reason (my peers simply saw me as a misogonyst). blah blah blah blah while the other half seemed to see me as some sort of sexual challenge (to "want what they can't have") - unfortunately the latter were without exception by far the least attractive!

Self promotion / How important GF wants us to believe he is.


When I last worked there I lived on a closed nature reserve about 20 minutes from Kowloon and HK Island by boat, which gave me the best of both worlds. Jackie Chan was one of the very few people who did not work there allowed access simply because it was virtually the only place in HK where he could get any peace, quiet and privacy and he would have been the first to agree with your views on the problems of a "private lifestyle". For most HK Chinese, who made up 99% of those I worked with and 100% of those working directly for me, they do not consider this a problem as it is what they have been used to all their lives, but the expats seem to find it more difficult to deal with. For most HK Chinese life is simply about making money and showing it off, as my senior manager explained to me over our usual working breakfast with a dozen of the senior management, the day after the first (and only) direct elections for LEGCO. It turned out he was the only one of them who had voted, and that was only because I had asked him if he was going to the day before so he had felt that he should; as far as they and (judging by the minimal turnout) most HK Chinese were concerned the only freedom they wanted was freedom to make money first, and freedom to enjoy life with their families second - anything else was best left up to others, as it always had been.


And lastly you say The only times when I introduce any specific personal details, and then only in outline, is when another poster contradicts me on the basis that he has more experience in that particular subject than I do and questions my own experience when in fact the Hong Kong thread contradicts this statement completely.

How unfortunate you decided to take a big poop on the otherwise incredily boring guide to Hong Kong thread and now itтАЩs about your big old gay Hugo Boss sweater.

Yawn ...

Vraiment? C'est tout?

I found it a bit hard to believe at first, but you really are far, far more stupid than Brad.

Vietnamese Boat People:

Thank you for saving me using the search engine to confirm that I wrote that "I unexpectedly found myself in charge of two boatloads of Vietnamese refugees". They had already been "rescued", and very clearly not by me, hence my writing that "I have never "rescued" any Vietnamese Boat people".

What a beauty, etc:

Just what part of "HK is one of the few places where I have been approached" and "I could never understand ... etc" don't you understand? (Don't bother to answer that, as obviously its all of it and anything written in English). The whole point, which I even clarified later for you, was that this was in spite of my appearance, which is why I could never understand it, not because of it!

Important:

What can possibly be so self-important - although I wasn't, from the details I gave I could have been the head gardener, the chief park warden, or in charge of cleaning the public toilets! The point that they were "senior management", etc, was to indicate that they were relatively intelligent and successful - in the top 2% of their profession, to be accurate and all, for example, specifically guaranteed British residency post-1997 (not that many took up the offer). It was an example of the difference in perspective between East and West (HK Chinese and gweilos, Thais and farangs, etc), nothing more and nothing to do with me personally.

Personal details:

Well, if saying what brand and colour your sweater was is one of those "personal details" you find so revealing and unnecessary, then I have to admit such detail wasn't strictly necessary and that this board is overflowing with such unnecessary trivia - at least, thanks to Brad's far superior knowledge of gay apparel, I now know that Yellow Hugo Boss sweaters and white shoes are "gay".

SC, whereas BL, Brad and others may be equally derogatory, at least they occasionally post something that is interesting, informative and sometimes even amusing (OK, BL isn't amusing yet, but if he works on it he may be in a few decades) and worth reading. You don't, so I'll take giggsy's advice.

╪г╪н┘Т┘Е┘О┘В ╪о╪п╪з ╪н╪з┘Б

[Surfcrest]

I found it a bit hard to believe at first, but you really are far, far more stupid than Brad.

What do you have to offer that supports that statement Gone Fishing, or are you just name calling because you have nothing left?

I think I have easily provided enough that clearly demonstrates your credibility or lack there of.
I really didn't have to dig very deep to find these examples, imagine what I could find if I really wanted to search?

I am so dissappointed you find my posts very boring, but I see for some reason not only are you reading them but you are responding to them.

The usual moronic bitchfest.

Dear Uncle Surfcrest,

Your soup is
[ ] very thick
[ ] thick
[ ] thin
[X] very thin!

Your hungry boys