Best thing you can do for a Issan boy?

[cdnmatt]

Let's see if this sparks a decent discussion. I'm sure many (most?) of us have met a Thai boy who has touched our hearts in a way unlike the others, and has caused us to spend hours wondering if there's a way we could help them. So, what's the best way to help?

English Lessons -- This is a common one, but unless they're planning to continue living in a tourist city and/or remain in the tourist industry, I think it's pretty useless. Not to mention, even if that's the case, they tend to pickup English as they go anyway.

Education -- Another very common one, but personally, I no longer believe this is a very realistic way to help someone from Issan. Many of these guys dropped out of school early to work, and help support their family. On top of that, the Thai government doesn't seem overly interested in having an educated populace, or at least their education programs don't show it. Alot of these guys are looking at 3 - 5 years of screwing around just to get the equivalent of a high-school diploma, and really, what's the point of that?

A high-school diploma doesn't mean anything in Canada, and means even less in Issan. They need at least a four year university degree to be considered for a decent job. So even if they manage to stick with schooling for say 8 years, which is highly doubtful in probably most cases, they'll probably be in their early 30s by the time they get a decent job, which doesn't seem very viable. Not to mention, formal education isn't exactly a pre-requisite to building financial stability for yourself. For example, I don't have a high school diploma, have taught myself everything needed, and have done just fine for myself.

Buy a House -- I think this is a really good thing, and hey, houses in Issan are cheap. 1 - 3 million baht, the entire family is happy as hell, he'll always have a good roof above his head, and he gets to help out the family in a huge way. The only downside to this is that it's expensive, and is a pure handout, which the Thai didn't do a single thing to earn. Probably not the best way to build character.

Buy them Gold! -- Ok, just kidding actually. This one's just stupid, because we all know how quickly gold turns into whiskey in Thailand. Not to mention, nowadays, I think it's somewhat disrespectful. Mama is busting her ass to bring in 8000/month, and you drop 30,000 on some gold for your BF? Just give the money to mama instead, because it'll more than likely end up in her bank account anyway, except it'll be a smaller amount because the Thai had to sell the gold (and buy whiskey).

Fund a Business -- This is the best thing I can think of. Find out what they're interested in, make sure they work within that industry for at least a couple years to learn the ropes, then fund a small business for them. Don't buy them a business, but instead loan them the funds to buy it, and have them pay you back monthly from the profits. It's a win-win, assuming you have faith that you're Thai BF knows what he's doing, and is capable of turning a profit. In the long-term you get your money back, he gets a huge helping hand to build financial stability for himself, he has something to work towards that builds character, he looks like a superstar during family get togethers, etc. Plus his dignity remains intact, because he's not accepting a handout, but only a loan that he's making monthly payments on.

So yeah, funding a business seems to be the best thing I can think of. And I'm sure in a year or two, I'll be eating for free at a Thai BBQ restaurant in Kohn Kaen quite often. :-)

What do you guys think? Thoughts? Insights? Stories?

[bing]

I am glad you put English lessons first on the list. I helped one boy to go to Mim at NS travel. She does a basic English
class. I checked to be sure the boy attended on my next trip and was assured by Mim that he attended faithfully. The fact that his English inproved was a good sign the classes worked. I also think that working with farangs in the bar would have also improved in skills. Going to class perhaps helped the process along.

[zinzone]

:laughing3:

OP are u totally effing stupid or what?
Your ludicrous suggestions like buying a house or funding a business for some issan boy whose cock or arse u happen to fancy for a while is just another example of how pathetically naive and gullible some of these 'more money than sense' farangs have when it comes to Thais.
Time and again the experienced ones on this web site try to warn against silly farangs throwing their wordly goods at these prostitutes but u have proven OP that sooner rather than later u will lose what if anything you have.
Mostly what is given to Thais goes to fuel drug or gambling habits or to help keep extended families in their lazy world of idleness and you OP are doing a shocking disservice by posting in this wholly irresponsible manner.

For fuck sake get real!

Was this topic covered in this forum before ... or was it on Thai Visa? I remember that some time last year I cataloged a long list of my failed attempts at helping Thai boys.

While I tend to be more moderate in my language compared to zinzone's postings, I have to agree with him completely on this one. When I started helping Thai boys (Vietnamese lessons, university study, houses, businesses, etc. ..), I would have been shocked by zinzone's conclusions. Now, ten years later, I can only report that more than 90% of what I have tried to do has been a waste of money, time and emotions. Only a few of the many boys have shown any promise of being able to achieve self-sufficiency, which was my original goal for them. Sometimes it is their fault; sometimes the reasons are beyond their control. Limiting factors are level of intelligence, business acumen, demands by immediate and distant family members. If you're lucky, the one (s) you're helping will be smart enough to study or run a business, and will have a family that is not intent on extracting every last baht from the farang. (A farm boy's poverty stricken family is simply not capable of planning for, or looking towards the future. They'll want as much as they can get right now.) More often than not, the boy has unrealistic dreams of becoming self-employed even though he has not a clue about business ownership or operation.

Yes, there are success stories, but they are certainly in the minority. Still, I admire those farangs who are willing to provide help, though I would admonish them that their success rate will be similar to direct mailing campaigns - about 3 per cent. That's three out of a hundred boys --- but less than one boy out of ten.

[Art]

[Missing picture: Banana-style Rolls-Royce, Dollar-style sunglasses and ...]


So, what's the best way to help?
Thais are self-sufficient. Never change a running system. The best assistance is denial of assistance.

[cdnmatt]

Mostly what is given to Thais goes to fuel drug or gambling habits or to help keep extended families in their lazy world of idleness and you OP are doing a shocking disservice by posting in this wholly irresponsible manner.

For fuck sake get real!

Geez, what crawled up your ass, and died this morning? Just because you're not capable of making something work with a Thai BF, doesn't mean it's impossible for the rest of us. And the above remark about fueling drug and gambling habits is a bit arrogant, no?

[Dodger]

Giving is the easy part; Not being able to celebrate any real results becomes a bit challenging.

[allieb]

One of the best things you can do is to go visit his room with him. Pay his landlord 6 months rent for him in advance so that he can't spend it on booze and gambling. Encourage him to get some kind of job where he isn't flogging his asshole. Now that's what I call helping a boy

Just give him a nice tip, a friend and a smile everytime you say good bye?

Our concept of happiness is nothing like theirs. To even try is a fruitless endeavor.

When you fuck him, make sure he's happy with his reward. Simple.

[Beachlover]

Was this topic covered on SGT beforeтАж or was it on Thai Visa? I remember that some time last year I cataloged a long list of my failed attempts at helping Thai boys.

While I tend to be more moderate in my language compared to zinzoneтАЩs postings, I have to agree with him completely on this one. When I started helping Thai boys (English lessons, university study, houses, businesses, etc.), I would have been shocked by zinzoneтАЩs conclusions. Now, ten years later, I can only report that more than 90% of what I have tried to do has been a waste of money, time and emotions. Only a few of the many boys have shown any promise of being able to achieve self-sufficiency, which was my original goal for them. Sometimes it is their fault; sometimes the reasons are beyond their control. Limiting factors are intelligence level, business acumen, demands by immediate and distant family members. If youтАЩre lucky, the one(s) youтАЩre helping will be smart enough to study or run a business, and will have a family that is not intent on extracting every last Baht from the farang. (A boyтАЩs poverty stricken farm family is simply not capable of planning for, or looking towards the future. TheyтАЩll want as much as they can get right now.) More often than not, the boy has unrealistic dreams of becoming self-employed even though he hasnтАЩt a clue about business ownership or operation.

Yes, there are success stories, but certainly they are in the minority. Still, I admire those farangs who are willing to provide help, though I would admonish them that their success rate will be similar to direct mailing campaigns тАУ about 3 per cent. ThatтАЩs three boys out of a hundred --- but less than one boy out of ten.

I think the key if you want to help the boy... don't offer what you might logically think is the right path. Coming from a developed country... we automatically think... oh... a good job is what we need for a better lifestyle... and we need education for this etc. So the thing to do is to give the boy education!

In many cases... if the boy wants to be educated, they'll get out there and make it happen for themselves... or at least go part of the way to making it happen.

I think if the boy has a certain amount of drive... and really wants to get into studying something... then great... give him a little boost (support him). But I think picking up a boy and pushing a "better life" on him won't always work. Like someone else said... there's a reason why these kids dropped out of school. Family circumstances are a common reason, but often, it's because they lacked the desire to finish.

[Beachlover]

Responding to the OP...

I don't think you can rule education out... it would be suitable for some boys. I think the issue is many "sensible" farang would just think this is the best way to go so education becomes the "default" way to help and Isaan boy... which is wrong because it's not suitable for every boy. You're definitely right it's not realistic for every boy... and formal education is definitely not a pre-requisite for success.

I like the idea of funding a business... especially through a loan (I think most farang just give the money to the boy to start the business... loan is better) so he feels more self sufficient (i.e. he did it himself... all you did is offer a little "boost").

[allieb]

I think if the boy has a certain amount of drive... and really wants to get into studying something... then great... give him a little boost (support him). But I think picking up a boy and pushing a "better life" on him won't always work. Like someone else said... there's a reason why these kids dropped out of school. Family circumstances are a common reason, but often, it's because they lacked the desire to finish.

I don't think for a moment they lack desire to finish. The type of boys we meet in our Thailand have often been encouraged by their friends to get into prostitution and told of the earnings potential. Not much different from us Farang in a way. I would always go for the easyest way to earn a quid or two. I left school at 15 and have always done well.

[bao-bao]

I think Beachlover made a valid point when he said:


In many cases... if the boy wants to be educated, they'll get out there and make it happen for themselves... or at least go part of the way to making it happen.

I think if the boy has a certain amount of drive... and really wants to get into studying something... then great... give him a little boost (support him). But I think picking up a boy and pushing a "better life" on him won't always work. Like someone else said... there's a reason why these kids dropped out of school. Family circumstances are a common reason, but often, it's because they lacked the desire to finish.
There have been a number of valid points made in this thread, from a variety of viewpoints. My belief is there must be a sincere desire and willingness in a person's mind to make an improvement in their life, and communication is the key to understanding that. Sadly, we тАУ as outsiders тАУ seldom have the skills to communicate well enough to understand.

Part of the problem is a failure to have a true understanding of the desire as it exists in the guy's mind. Few of us Westerners can grasp the multiple levels of logic (or non-logic), societal obligations and cultural nuances involved. Add to that the unfortunate colorings of personality and desires that invariably occur when a "country boy" becomes "Westernized" and things can be mighty difficult to interpret. So what do we do? We do what we think would work in Farangland and then get unhappy when it doesnтАЩt turn out as we envisioned it.

In some cases itтАЩs best to remember the old saying тАЬDonтАЩt try to teach a pig to sing. ItтАЩs a waste of your time, and it annoys the pigтАЭ.

I have made both financial gifts and loans to Thai friends. With the sole exception of a guy who justified his entire philosophy on life - one that fell a little to the left of тАЬwhoopeeтАЭ тАУ (his usual justification delivered with a shrug was тАЬI am Voy Boy!тАЭ) they have been properly used and the loans repaid. Voy was so Westernized he was beyond hope, and I should have known better. The others have used the funds constructively.

You can provide the tools, but it's up to the guy to choose if he wants to build a house or just hit himself on the head with it. Simply throwing money at a problem is rarely the answer.

[Diec]

I will tell you what the best thing is to give an Issan boy. First, it is not to shower them with money or to fund a business for them. They will not ever understand the value of the money, or how hard we as gay farang had to work for that money. Education is also not the way to go. Most of these boys only think in the "now" and do not really plan for their future, especially stupid farm boys from the north. Most of these farm boys do not have any direct contact with successful people and therefore do not understand the value of an education. After all, they make a pretty handsome profit selling themselves on the street.

What these lovely young lads need is a huge dose of LOVE. They don't want our stinking money, they simply want our love. When you give love to these boys, they become richer than they ever thought they could be in their wildest dreams. Love is the universal language, and once these boys know that they have your love, your trust, your devotion, they will do almost anything to make you happy. Yes, there is almost a 50 year difference between me and my future husband, but the love he has for me, and the love I have for him carries us to a realm that many on this board have never experienced.

It's always easy to give money, but when you give your love, it needs to be earned, and once you give your love unconditionally, everything else will fall into place.

What these lovely young lads need is a huge dose of LOVE. They don't want our stinking money, they simply want our love.

You've got to be kidding!! If you really believe what you write, you should try sticking your head into the next pool of cold water you come across and then think again.

I have lived in Thailand for 2 years and then returned to the west to finish my studies. I know a fair bit of Thai, and I see the hordes of either female ex-prostitutes or male ex-massage/barboys roaming the scene cafes and discos here. I even have a few Thai friends from that "scene" as well as Thais who came here for studying (which mostly turns out exceptionally hard for them, by the way). These groups (students vs. "garee") do not mingle at all as one group is disgusted by the other and the other cares only for parties, sex and drugs.

There are uncountable numbers of "boys" who have farang sitting at home why they have a good time partying and picking up guys for a "gig", and still manage to play the farang for a fool, such that he never finds out what's going on.

What they want ist: YOUR MONEY. Both your cash and your more "long-term" assets such as your house and car, and all other fine things that we farang tend to get during the course of our lives (inheritances, etc.).
Yes, they make you FEEL they love you, both because they are incredible actors (ever heard the phrase: "lie like Siam"??) and because you're their best chance at a secure future. They are prepared to give a lot for that.

They even give in to your stupid desire to make them "study" your native language or study at universities, although they tend to fail quite quickly. There's also a good way to get quick money out of the farang bf if he insists the thai "should earn his own money", such as losing (= selling) one's mobile phone in the disco and getting the bf to pay for a new one. I won't continue the list here...

But don't dare fall ill, or lose your wealth. Then you will see how fast they run away with their "alternatives".

In my humble opinion, there is only one way to deal with this: As far as rent boys are concerned, fuck and forget. If you like them, give them a tip. Even a very generous tip will never compare to what you're about to lose once you "import" them to your country.
If you want a reliable and truthful bf who really loves you, you have to try to get people who at least have a minimum of education and have learned the importance of hard work in life. Problem is: These people, being Thai, will be both shy and nearly unable to speak English. Unless you manage to find the needle in the haystack.

Diec - wrong. Tiuri - Right.

[cdnmatt]

Diec - wrong. Tiuri - Right.

Both, Diec and Tuiri generalizing = wrong.

[Smiles]

I assume the original post refers to (1) a bar boy, or someone that has been otherwise picked up for sex, and/or (2) someone you are not particularly interested in long term?

If that is the case, I suggest forever discarding the paternalist do-gooder schtick and simply asking him what he'd prefer as a one-shot-deal gift from heaven.

If he says 'money', then give it to him ~ for that's what he'll probably say ~ and attach no strings whatsoever on it's end use. Attempting to guess what would be best for any individual, or ~ even worse ~ decide for him is a waste of time, money, and energy, and will only be a salve for your own ego and/or sense of need: Thai guys being of course the white man's burden.

[Surfcrest]

Tiuri.....that was perfect, a great post! :hello1: :hello1: :hello1:

Attempting to guess what would be best for any individual, or ~ even worse ~ decide for him is a waste of time, money, and energy, and will only be a salve for your own ego and/or sense of need.So many of our members are, however, absolute experts on the motives and wants of other people. You have only to read what some of those who believe themselves to be intelligent write in attributing motives, feelings and desires to their fellow posters, almost none of whom they have ever or will ever meet, based on their reading (and in some cases misreading) of what that person has written, without any ear for tone. So when it comes to "knowing" what a Thai boy they're fucked once or twice really, really wants, let alone a Thai boy someone else has fucked once or twice but they themselves have never met, then they are world experts. Get a grip Smiles.

Definition of expert: X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure. (It's not original; I read it somewhere, possibly even on Sawatdee. Was it homintern? Doubtless that fool PeterUK (speaking of experts) will think so. BTW Pete, it's possible to delete PMs before you read them, which is what I do with yours to me.)

[Surfcrest]

Definition of expert: X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure. (It's not original; I read it somewhere, possibly even on Sawatdee. Was it homintern? Doubtless.....

Absolutely doubtless

http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18934

Re: Best thing you can do for a Issan boy?
Author: Tiuri ┬╗ Thu 14 Jan, 2010 3:22 pm

What these lovely young lads need is a huge dose of LOVE. They don't want our stinking money, they simply want our love.


You've got to be kidding!! If you really believe what you write, you should try sticking your head into the next pool of cold water you come across and then think again.

I have lived in Thailand for 2 years and then returned to the west to finish my studies. I know a fair bit of Thai, and I see the hordes of either female ex-prostitutes or male ex-massage/barboys roaming the scene cafes and discos here. I even have a few Thai friends from that "scene" as well as Thais who came here for studying (which mostly turns out exceptionally hard for them, by the way). These groups (students vs. "garee") do not mingle at all as one group is disgusted by the other and the other cares only for parties, sex and drugs.

There are uncountable numbers of "boys" who have farang sitting at home why they have a good time partying and picking up guys for a "gig", and still manage to play the farang for a fool, such that he never finds out what's going on.

What they want ist: YOUR MONEY. Both your cash and your more "long-term" assets such as your house and car, and all other fine things that we farang tend to get during the course of our lives (inheritances, etc.).
Yes, they make you FEEL they love you, both because they are incredible actors (ever heard the phrase: "lie like Siam"??) and because you're their best chance at a secure future. They are prepared to give a lot for that.

They even give in to your stupid desire to make them "study" your native language or study at universities, although they tend to fail quite quickly. There's also a good way to get quick money out of the farang bf if he insists the thai "should earn his own money", such as losing (= selling) one's mobile phone in the disco and getting the bf to pay for a new one. I won't continue the list here...

But don't dare fall ill, or lose your wealth. Then you will see how fast they run away with their "alternatives".

In my humble opinion, there is only one way to deal with this: As far as rent boys are concerned, fuck and forget. If you like them, give them a tip. Even a very generous tip will never compare to what you're about to lose once you "import" them to your country.
If you want a reliable and truthful bf who really loves you, you have to try to get people who at least have a minimum of education and have learned the importance of hard work in life. Problem is: These people, being Thai, will be both shy and nearly unable to speak English. Unless you manage to find the needle in the haystack.

Tiuri


Like I said..shorter Tiuri:

Fuck, smile and tip well!

Definition of expert: X is an unknown quantity and a spurt is a drip under pressure. (It's not original; I read it somewhere, possibly even on Sawatdee. Was it homintern? Doubtless..... Absolutely doubtless http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=18934I have to say I didn't find that definition sourced via that particular link Surfcrest. Are you also losing your grip?

[colmx]

These groups (students vs. "garee") do not mingle at all as one group is disgusted by the other and the other cares only for parties, sex and drugs.

I think its unfair to say that students are only iterested in parties, sex and drugs :tongue3:

I think its unfair to say that students are only iterested in parties, sex and drugs :tongue3:They were MY only interests when I was at Cardiff Polytechnic.

These groups (students vs. "garee") do not mingle at all as one group is disgusted by the other and the other cares only for parties, sex and drugs.

I think its unfair to say that students are only iterested in parties, sex and drugs :tongue3:

Well, I referred to the ex-rentboys mostly hanging out in discos at night :)
While the students still like to party, they also have to pass exams, which means they can't party 5-7 days a week ;)

Towards the other post, yes, I am generalizing, and believe me, I would love to be proven wrong. Unfortunately, around me there seem to be only poor (sometimes outright stupid) farang who believe their bf is the purest diamond on the planet while he exploits the farang for money (mostly for drugs) and fucks around till kingdom come.

It's also very funny to see that while in Thailand, you have mix of northerners, Issan boys, central Thais, and southerners, nearly ALL the (discobunny) Thais in the west are from Issaan (I'd say 95%), while the students are mostly central Thai and southerners. That would make it hard to be different and "good" even for a "decent-hearted" Issan boy, as he is shown by his mates constantly how "the system" works.

[Beachlover]

Which Western country are you talking about here?

Diec - wrong. Tiuri - Right.

Both, Diec and Tuiri generalizing = wrong.

I would actually have said "Both Diec and Tuiri right", under certain circumstances, but that would be the kiss of death for them both!

How to get to the real truth? How to know the best thing you can do for an Issan boy? How to know what bar boys really want?

IMO, we are never going to know by reading posts based on suppositions, anecdotes, guesses stemming from casual contact with bar workers or interpretations produced by referencing Western psychology. Everything posted on these topics is based on what we non-Thai customers think is best for the boys. Finding out what the boys really think is the only way to speak authoritatively on the matter. No clue as to how this can be done, but I am sure it's the only reliable source of information. In the meantime, our postings will remain nothing more than speculation, a way of allowing us to engage in debate without being in the least qualified to speak on behalf of working boys in Thailand.

The saving grace in all the discussions in the forum is that they help us to see that we are not alone in our failures to understand the boys whose charms have brought us to LOS.

Cheers.

[cdnmatt]

Towards the other post, yes, I am generalizing, and believe me, I would love to be proven wrong.

You are wrong though. You should never generalize like that, because you'll always be wrong, and will always end up with some jackass like myself explaining to you why you're wrong. :-) Really though, saying all Issan boys are low-life, drug using gambling addicts who don't know a hard day's work is just stupid. That's like me saying all wealthy businessmen with three piece suits snort cocaine. And what about all the Issan boys you don't see in the discos, who are busting their ass 16 hours a day for that whopping 150 baht?

As for the love thing, I'm sorry you don't believe, but some of them do genuinely want to be loved. My guy is a prime example. His parents split up when he was 9, and he's been working various jobs since he was 10, most of which were in a different city requiring him to be away from home. I don't think he's ever felt truly loved before. For example, his birthday was a couple days ago. I thought I was a pretty shitty boyfriend for doing so little, because all I did was buy him some flowers worth 900 baht, and a cake worth 660 baht, which I surprised him with at a small Thai karaoke we frequent. That was it. No presents, nothing. We ate at a Thai BBQ buffet place for 109 baht per person.

That night I had to pull him away from our group twice to calm him down because he was crying uncontrollably. He was overwhelmed that someone actually gave a shit about him, and loved him enough to put together a little birthday party for him. And he's the furthest thing from a low-life drug addict. He's the type of guy who wakes up at 6am three times a week, so he can goto the temple, and give the monks some food.

Anyway, yeah... you shouldn't generalize. :-)

I try to convince myself that I've got it all figured out, and that leads to generalizations (no money, no honey), but then I see something like Matt's account of his BF's birthday party, and I feel somewhat guilty that I have so frequently dismissed the "love factor", and I force myself to wonder how much of the "love" that various boys have professed is genuine emotional love, and how much is simply gratitude for financial support. I suppose I would have a VERY different outlook if even just one of "my boys" was originally non-commercial. Haven't yet been in a realtionship with a self-supporting individual, and at nearly 70 yrs of age, I guess that's not likely to happen this time around.

Best of luck to Matt and the small number of other posters who appear to have something very special going on in their lives.

[Diec]

My goodness LMTU, you sure have come back in full force considering you were dieing of tooth cancer last month. Or were you just making up a lovely story about you dieing from tooth cancer to try and make yourself more interesting? Who knew a shot of chemo would make all of your problems dissapear. Your bi-line indicates you had stem cell work. Well...we both know that's a little lie, huh? You little fibber you! I was going to say more but frankly, you bore me so I'm done.

[cdnmatt]

If you don't mind, please take your immature little bitch fest out of my thread. Thank you!

Seriously though, my 5yo nephew has more maturity than some of the posters here display.

some jackass like myself
my 5yo nephew
my threadSo being a jackass runs in the family?

I see that in what Matt is saying. One can imagine the type of mind- and type of loving- that allows these guys to pull off getting close to us, giving themselves up for sex, trying to make a living and all at the same time not hate themselves for being whores. Even worse is the realization that creeps into their consciousness...somewhere...that the guys they are trying to connect with view them as a 1000 baht fuck, to be tossed away after a few hours. I totally get that glimmer Matt's bf experienced...that part of him that saw that Matt actually went beyond any expectation and did something from his heart- no matter how incidental it might have been. I wonder, given Matt's depiction of the act as not much of an effort, if Matt himself was stunned at the revelation, and if he was transformed at all.

What's funny for me is that I tend to pick straight guys and they all are so keen to keep the friendship going even after it's obvious there's no future. They try so hard to keep the connection, though it's impossibly incoherent to be a thai bf to a gay farang when they obviously are not gay and only want the daddy aspect. I wonder if the lack of a strong father figure drives that dynamic.

[Geezer]

I

my 5yo nephew has more maturity than some of the posters here display.

Wow how frightening that you look that close at him, only 5 you say :thebirdman:

LMTU, you must be the only person to draw such an implication from cdnmattтАЩs post.

Many people are aware it costs 500,000 bt. to avoid arrest for having an underage boy.

[cdnmatt]

I wonder, given Matt's depiction of the act as not much of an effort, if Matt himself was stunned at the revelation, and if he was transformed at all.

Not really, no. It did make it hit home as to how intrinsically alone he truly feels, but that's about it. I know he loves me though, and he's actually broken down a few times in the past week now. He'll start crying, and saying things like the only time he's ever been happy is with me, he never really had a mama or papa, never had a chance to be a typical student with his friends, etc. He's always been working in other cities throughout northern Thailand. I'm heading out of country right away for a couple weeks, and when I come back, and going directly to Khon Kaen to start our new life there. So he's pretty worried that I'm not going to come back for him, hence why he's been so emotional lately.

Matt,

I take it you've told him that he's going with you and not to worry? Is it that he doesn't believe you or is the Thai mindset of believing only in living today and he can't grasp that you've planned out for him a future that includes the both of you? We're all familiar with the 'live today, don't worry about tomorrow' attitudes that Thais seem to have. In this case, it appears that just the act of you leaving the country is far more threatening to him than the solace that you plan to come back and take him with you to start your new life. Maybe they can't concieve that planning ahead actually produces good results, and not just disappointment.

The guy seems like you say, very alone. I hope it works out for the both of you. Strange how if you were to take the classic Thai attitude toward him it would be a reversal of the roles many of us have to play while in Thailand.

[CoffeeBreak]

Reading what cdnmatt says about himself and his b/f , it sounds like they both need each other and are well suited. So hopefully we can be kept informed about how the relationship develops.


:love4:

[blueboy]

I agree with matt.

How can you generalise about all Thais boys being whores, thieves ad liars - very sad indeed.

I am in a relationship with a ex-bar boy for 4 years now. We spend a lot of time together and I truly love him, and love his companionship. I believe there is a strong bond between both of us, and yes being 20 odd years younger, I don't expect him to have the same feelings as me, but I know he is happy with me which in turns makes me happy. I do not control his life, wouldn't want to. I am helping him at his pace to think and grow and hope I am doing some good.

I treat him as an equal which is what most people on this board don't do, and why it goes wrong.

However, a relationship is not for everyone and also appreciate some just want to use them for short time fun - please treat them well and they will in return.

[Smiles]

" ... How can you generalise about all Thais boys being whores, thieves ad liars - very sad indeed ... "Who wrote that?

" ... I treat him as an equal which is what most people on this board don't do, and why it goes wrong ... "How do you know what "most people on this Board" do?

[Beachlover]

That's really sweet... Kim has found his Romeo :love4:

What is all this about, you just 'find Em' 'Feed Em' 'Fcuk Em' 'then leave Em' for the next one, end of problem.
LMTU. You really are a tragic, lonely, fucked up narcissistic cunt. Was you gang raped as a kid while you were selling your arse? (Obviously you couldnтАЩt earn money any other way, being as mentally challenged as you are)
Why donтАЩt you try and join the human race instead of always being on the outside, enviously looking in.
If any of what you say about your current situation is true, and you are still being as twisted and fucked up as youтАЩve always been, then you are truly beyond help. LetтАЩs hope your suffering is short lived and the likes of you can quickly move on to hell and spread your venom and bile there.

At least he feeds em!

Matt,

Not that long ago (OK, it doesn't feel that long ago) I was in a very similar position to you - at a similar age to you, with my then Thai b/f at a similar age to yours, and similarly convinced that he was not only intelligent and an all-round great guy but capable, with my help, of doing anything he put his mind to. Unfortunately I was young and na├пve (OK, stupid) so it took me a long while to realize that all he was capable of doing was convincing me and others (farang or Thai, male or female, gay, straight or lesbian, young or old, it didn't matter) that he was a great guy - nothing beyond that. As became very clear, he wasn't.

I hope that your own relationship works out differently to that one.

Education.

While " A high-school diploma doesn't mean anything in Canada, and means even less in Issan" may be true, you are assuming that he is going to spend the rest of his life in rural Issan (or Canada). It means a great deal anywhere else in Thailand, and without it he would not even be considered for a job as a shelf stacker in Big C, Lotus, etc, or the vast majority of companies in Thailand - in many companies he would even find it hard to get a job taking out the garbage.

Yes, it would take a long time if he left school after 6 years - 4 years of adult education, followed by 3 or 4 years of college or tech, but it is certainly do-able particularly as he is only just 20 if it is what he wants. One of Pattaya's best known lawyers was in a similar position, working Jomtien beach, when a generous sponsor helped him finish school and then attend the Sorbonne. My partner shared a room for a while with one of his fellow masseurs, who taught him his first English; he is now a department head in a 5 star Pattaya hotel and also teaches business English. One of my partner's other friends finished four years of adult education this year and has started a course in computer studies at a technical college; another, after nearly 20 years as a "working boy", joined my partner on his advice on a 6 month full time course as a hair stylist and, like him, is now fully qualified and licenced and he has his own small but successful business in Mabtaphut. It can be done, if someone wants to do it; if they don't want to it is a complete waste of time and effort.

Buy a House. For most people, even considering building a house would come some way into a relationship and would have nothing to do with "character building". Building a decent house in Isaan costs about one tenth of the amount you have estimated.

Fund a Business. A good idea, but a waste of time and money unless he knows how to run the business. Back to education (or at least proper training, and running a business successfully means a lot more than just knowing how to cook/cut hair/repair motorbikes, etc). As so many small businesses fail, even when they are well run and appear to have everything going for them, what happens to the loan re-payments (and your relationship) if he is no longer in a position to make them? What is wrong with a "partnership", where you are at least a silent partner and sharing in any profits, or a more active partner, whether it is doing the books or the admin? If it makes a profit "you get your money back" and if it doesn't, through no fault of his (or yours), he is not left owing you money he will never be able to pay back and an unnecessary strain on whatever relationship you have.

Money. I cannot imagine why anyone would simply give someone a "wad of sweaty money" as a " one-shot-deal gift from heaven" other than as a promised "golden handshake" at the end of a relationship. If the relationship is ongoing it simply makes no sense, makes for a dangerous precedent, and could make for a lot of heartache when the giver sees how it is spent (or mis-spent), no matter how freely it was given.

Love. Some will respond to genuine love (not lust) far more than money, some will not - but as was also said which some have overlooked, that love "needs to be earned". I would also add that it needs to be earned by both sides (not just bought by one) and that earning it takes time and effort - my partner never told me he loved me until after we had been living together 24/7 for over three years, by which time it meant something.

The 3% / The Needle in the Haystack. Agreed - pretty rare, but that does not mean they do not exist. If you are one of the very few lucky enough to find it you will never look back.

Fuck, Smile and Tip Well. As advice for visitors here, I would have no arguments with that at all. For those living here, some (but by no means all) of us like to think that there is a little more to life but for those that don't it is not unreasonable.

Feeding the Monks. You don't "wake up at 6am three times a week, so (you) can go to the temple, and give the monks some food". You wake up at 6am to give them food on the street, or you give them food in the temple around 7.30; not both.

Crying. People cry, get emotional and have mood swings for all sorts of different reasons which others (including myself) all too often misunderstand.

Re: Best thing you can do for a Issan boy?
Author: Gone Fishing ┬╗ Sun 17 Jan, 2010 12:01 pm

Matt,

Not that long ago (OK, it doesn't feel that long ago) I was in a very similar position to you - at a similar age to you, with my then Thai b/f at a similar age to yours, and similarly convinced that he was not only intelligent and an all-round great guy but capable, with my help, of doing anything he put his mind to. Unfortunately I was young and na├пve (OK, stupid) so it took me a long while to realize that all he was capable of doing was convincing me and others (farang or Thai, male or female, gay, straight or lesbian, young or old, it didn't matter) that he was a great guy - nothing beyond that. As became very clear, he wasn't.

What happened to the guy that soured the whole thing? (if you don't mind my asking)

[latintopxxx]

Silly girls!!...the only reasin Issan boys move to Thailands fleshpots is for a bit of adventure and money. They could easily stay back in the country side with their extended families working on the farm just like the vast majority of their compatriots.
They move to the big city because they want KFC/coca-cola and nike....discover that working at the convenience store involves long hours & low pay so take the fast way out...selling their bodies....make more money in an average week than they would in a month on a construction site.
Naturally the brighter ones go straight into prostitution.....without bothering with a "real" job.
The best thing I can do for an Issan boy is off him......I'm happy...he gets paid...

When you think about it, why shouldn't that option be available anywhere in the world, if it brings two satisfied parties together and they each get what they want. Kinda makes you think that Thailand is the one place that best comes close to allowing such a simple, mutually advantagious transaction like that.

[luvthai-2]

The best thing you can do is deal with them in an honest way. Don't make promises you can not keep or have no intention of keeping. The most used comment by thai guys on gayromeo is that they don't like liars.
If all you want to do is get in their pants then pay them a decent fee and let it go at that. If they know going in that it is just sex most will appreciate you being honest and will accept that.

..... Gone Fishing ..... What happened to the guy that soured the whole thing? (if you don't mind my asking)

I don't mind at all.

Surprisingly he is still alive (aged 40, when most people thought he was going to die by 21), still an alcoholic, still visibly reasonably healthy, and most surprisingly still lives in (and hasn't sold) the house I bought for him in Pattaya after we had finally gone our very separate ways (and it wasn't a tearful farewell present, it was simply that I had told him I would give him a house when we were on considerably better terms, so I did).

More details, if you want them, can be found by searching my posts on HIV and his lack of regard for his wife and then future sons, amongst others, in that and all other regards.

I wish I had never seen him in the first place, but what happened afterwards (in as much as it affected me) was up to me so he is not to blame for that. Fortunately it put me off the idea of any long term relationships for long enough so that I was still unattached when I met my partner, who is the most important thing in my life and always will be - probably one reason why I am happy to take out any ill feelings I have on some posters here (who thoroughly deserve it!) rather than on him!!

Sorry, Matt, I forgot

Conscription which Kim should be coming up for soon. There was a plethora of posts on how best to avoid it last year.

[Beachlover]

When you think about it, why shouldn't that option be available anywhere in the world, if it brings two satisfied parties together and they each get what they want. Kinda makes you think that Thailand is the one place that best comes close to allowing such a simple, mutually advantagious transaction like that.

I thought it was [available anywhere in the world]... except in Western developed countries the cost is probably too high for most on this board. Hence, why guys go to to Thailand where it's cheaper... it's geographical arbitrage. (Not to mention because by nature Thai boys are so friendly and lots of fun to be with).

I think a lot of Thai boys are "opportunists" as well. They're ordinary students or service workers who don't mind sleeping with an older guy to get a bit of cash... but they wouldn't define themselves as prostitutes. .. I think this is something you won't find as common in wealthier Western countries.

I'm pretty sure some of the boys I've picked up at DJ Station are "money boys". They just didn't charge me. Someone told me they are opportunists... ordinary Thai boys who want to have a great night out. But if they happen to hook up with an older farang they make some money as well.

I also found in some Asian cultures, there's less taboo in paying for sex. I spent a night out with a client's team recently... they had this particularly charismatic and good looking work experience student from China... the subject of conversation jokingly came round to prositutes... and he blurted out something like... "yes, why not" lol.

He goes on to say, "yes, why not... prostitute is great... I mean... sometime you just finish exam... and you feel depressed and you want to have sex... so you go to prostitute and is great!... You just have sex with her... and just pay her... you don't have to clean up or anything!" LOL. Everyone was half rolling around laughing and half slightly stunned but then this guy was known for surprising everyone.

[cdnmatt]

As became very clear, he wasn't.

Sorry to hear it didn't work out very well in the end, but sounds like you're in a great relationship now though. Who knows, maybe Kim and myself will turn out to be a disaster as well. However, regardless of what happens in the future, I do know that it's worth trying. And I do know that backing down because I might get (really) hurt in the future is no excuse to pursue things to the fullest. You only live once.


Education.

Thanks again for the well thought out response, but honestly, he's not interested in becoming educated. I honestly agree with him too, because as it stands, it's futile and there's better things he could be doing with his time. For example, I think him dedicating himself to becoming a monk would be a better use of his time than working towards a high school diploma. He's only worried that his little brother and sister get a good education, but as for himself, isn't too interested in the concept.


Fund a Business.

Tons of farangs have done this, and you only need to spend a week or two in Pattaya to see this. Of course I wouldn't care if he was capable of paying me back or not. I wouldn't be entering into it as a typical business relationship, wouldn't be looking for a profit (or to even break even), and obviously I wouldn't be anywhere near as critical as I generally would be with business relationships involved in my work. Really, funding a business is going to cost what in KK? 500,000 for a small 15 table place, maybe? Sure it's enough to worry about, but if I lose it, it's hardly the end of the world. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

And no, I don't want to be his business partner. Friends and business don't mix. He's my boyfriend who I'm hoping to love and live with for years to come, so the last thing I'm going to do is get business involved in the relationship. If he turns a profit, then great, and we're both better off. If not, then no worries, shit happens, and life goes on. Getting involved in a business together means all the stress, headache, and responsibility that running a business entails slowly encroaches in our relationship, which I won't let happen. Not to mention, I want it to be HIS, not OURS.


Money.

I agree. That's actually why he didn't get any presents for his birthday, and these days, I've been quite stingy with my money. I was actually worried as to whether or not he'd be pissed because of how little I did for his birthday. Turns out, he was ecstatic, which was great. Regardless, right now he still knows the value of hard work and money, and I don't want to see that ruined by me throwing around a bunch of cash. Hence what I meant before by "coming down to their level", which you gave me hell for. :P

And yes, I know, I know I'm being a hypocrite, because I used to throw tons of cash his way. Live and learn I guess, eh?


Love.

Love is love is love. It's one of those things you can't explain in words, but yeah, it's definitely there. Whether or not it lasts, nobody can tell. Honestly though, in several ways, this is more of a genuine relationship than my actual, genuine marriage ever was. I can very easily see Kim and myself happily living together in five years from now, without question, as the dynamics are there. I could never say that with my ex.


Feeding the Monks. You don't "wake up at 6am three times a week, so (you) can go to the temple, and give the monks some food". You wake up at 6am to give them food on the street, or you give them food in the temple around 7.30; not both.

Sorry, I should have said, "going to the gate of the temple, to give food to the monks". Same shit. You've been in Thailand alot longer than me, so I actually have a question about that. I understand the food and flowers, but I don't understand the reasoning behind slowly pouring a small cup of water into a bowl, while the monk recites / says whatever. What's that about? The best explanation Kim could give was to fend off ghosts, but I'm assuming there's more to it than that, and he just said that due to the language barrier.


Conscription which Kim should be coming up for soon. There was a plethora of posts on how best to avoid it last year.

Yep, no worries, and I'm aware of it. Obviously though, that's all I'm willing to post on a public forum regarding that subject.

Wow, long post... anyway, I guess time will tell! This is definitely one of those times in life where I'm happy to be alive though, and looking forward to what each day brings. You don't get that very often, so I'm savouring it while I can, but hopefully it'll last for years to come. Nonetheless, thanks for the lengthy, and well thought out response.

[cdnmatt]

I take it you've told him that he's going with you and not to worry?

Actually, it's the other way around. I'm going there (Khon Kaen), and hoping to hell he'll be there for me (which I know he will be). :-) I'm going to head to KL for a bit to visit my parents, then goto Lao to get a double entry tourist VISA, which gives me 6 months in Thailand. Then I take the bus to Khon Kaen, and Kim will pick me up there. Then Kim will visit his family and friends while I'm gone, and (hopefully) rent a nice house for us to live in, hookup all the utilities, etc. That's the plan anyway.

But no, he's actually been awesome in the past couple days. He doesn't seem worried anymore at all. I think that breaking down over the past week, and me being there for him cemented things that much more. That, and I let my guard down a bit more too, and let him in on some secrets as well. Plus I've broken down a bit when he did as well. Like I've always told him, "mua-lia kun sanuk, pom sanuk. mua-lia kun long-hai, pom long-hai" (when you're happy, I'm happy. when you cry, I cry).

The future looks quite interesting, that's for sure. Living in Issan, talk about an adventure. :-)

[Beachlover]

I think it's fantastic. Yours is the kind of story I come to this board to read about. Probably the best thing this board's had going in the past year.

Good luck!

The future looks quite interesting, that's for sure. Living in Issan, talk about an adventure. :-)

Won't you get bored without the accruements of Western living around? I guess if you can speak Thai and all it's not too hard, but I always find that I REALLY appreciate whatever morsels of Western stuff I can get occasionally. Would seem boring to live in the countryside without things you're used to around. You guys that do do that I admire. Let us know how it goes.

[cdnmatt]

Won't you get bored without the accruements of Western living around? I guess if you can speak Thai and all it's not too hard, but I always find that I REALLY appreciate whatever morsels of Western stuff I can get occasionally. Would seem boring to live in the countryside without things you're used to around. You guys that do do that I admire. Let us know how it goes.

What do you mean? I'm not going to be living in his mama's village, or anything. We'll be living in Khon Kaen city, which is bigger than Pattaya, and has more than everything I need. I'll have my 7-11, Tesco, a few farang restaurants, and basically all servicing for anything I need. I guess it doesn't have go-go bars, or a well-defined gay scene, but that's not much of an issue for me.

But no, not worried at all. Only two concerns are the language barrier, and the fact that there aren't many farangs around, so I'm unsure how the locals will take to me. I've been warned by many people many locals will generally be shy and reserved, because they're not sure how to deal with a farang, even if I am a nice farang. :) The language barrier I'm not too worried about. I should know more Thai than I do, but nonetheless, I know enough to get around, and what I don't know I'm sure I'll be learning quickly. That, and I've lived in enough countries now to be prepared for what's to come; the language barrier, culture difference, etc.

I'm actually really looking forward to it. Pattaya is a great place for a holiday and to party, but it's a horrible place to settle down, have a nice, modest house, be in a stable relationship, etc. Pattaya is no good for that at all, but Khon Kaen is. I can't wait. Just a nice, typical, routine based life. Then go on a holiday once or twice a month during the weekend, or something. That's all I really want.

Won't you get bored without the accruements of Western living around?Doesn't a Yale man know what an accoutrement is?

If you don't mind, please take your immature little bitch fest out of my thread. Thank you!

Seriously though, my 5yo nephew has more maturity than some of the posters here display.

I have to agree completely.

This "forum" continues to disappoint me with the constant negative attitudes and comments to other posters. It is not only disrespectful to other people's points of view but also childish. Thank god I can log onto gaytingtong.com and converse with other forum members that are mature and respectful.
My Thai partner (from Isaan region - Nongkhai) can not believe some of the comments contained within this thread. Some are downright insulting and wrong. How dare people generalise. Lets start generalising us "farangs" - fat, old, ugly men who just go to Thailand because that's the only place they will get a f*** because they can afford to pay for it!
My Isaan partner and I have been together for over a year and he now lives with me in Australia and he works hard, plus studies, and helps with all the house chores. Yes he came from a poor family etc. but he is determined to succeed. (as with all his Thai friends I know).
Maybe if some of the "farangs" think they will find a life partner by picking something up from a bar wake up and realise that you have to get out into the REAL Thailand to meet the man of your dreams!

Feel better I got that off my chest now :)

Cheers,

Steve

[Beachlover]

I can't wait. Just a nice, typical, routine based life. Then go on a holiday once or twice a month during the weekend, or something. That's all I really want.

Geez... thinking like an old man already :blackeye:

[Chuai-Duai]

There's only one generalisation that's relevant to this thread. If you want to know the best thing you can do for an Issan Boy it's the same you can do for anyone else and that's treat them with respect.

Try it and you might end up with some loyal friends.

I'm still in touch with guys from 15 years ago who I meet up with and who's company and continued friendship is very rewarding.

It doesn't matter where they come from or what their background is they're people like anyone else.

Ignore that and you end up with the sort of attitudes that too many have exhibited here.

But then do people actually believe what gets posted here? It seems obvious to me that the majority is just posted to piss other people off and it's best ignored anyway.

Won't you get bored without the accruements of Western living around?Doesn't a Yale man know what an accoutrement is?

YEP! Busted.

Can I plead being bleary-eyed and that my spell check only suggested accruement? And that I knew when I selected it that I'd f*cked up?

There's only one generalisation that's relevant to this thread. If you want to know the best thing you can do for an Issan Boy it's the same you can do for anyone else and that's treat them with respect.

Try it and you might end up with some loyal friends.

I'm still in touch with guys from 15 years ago who I meet up with and who's company and continued friendship is very rewarding.

It doesn't matter where they come from or what their background is they're people like anyone else.

Ignore that and you end up with the sort of attitudes that too many have exhibited here.

But then do people actually believe what gets posted here? It seems obvious to me that the majority is just posted to piss other people off and it's best ignored anyway.

Good advice! And I plead guilty to getting caught up in the whole 'fuck em and tip em' attitude. The thrust of this board SEEMS to be oriented toward the base rent boy scene more than the 'settle down with a bf' one. I think we got the whole gamut here and you never know which attitude is going to come out when the posting gets lively. I suspect there are a LOT of closet romantics that participate really hoping to find their 'Romeo' as BL put it, but hide their frustration of fruitless searches behind crude posts.

There are also a lot that have trusted and tried to help these guys but have been betrayed or disappointed, and you get a bit of that. At the end of the day...
treat them with respect... is certainly the 'Golden Rule'.

Won't you get bored without the accruements of Western living around?Doesn't a Yale man know what an accoutrement is?

YEP! Busted.

Can I plead being bleary-eyed and that my spell check only suggested accruement? And that I knew when I selected it that I'd f*cked up?What happened to the world class degree in English literature? You need spell check to get accoutrement? I'll let my sister know she's wasting her money wanting to send the kids to an Ivy League school.

Curious,

Are you REALLY going to stalk me all over the forum (he's actually commented about the misspelling of 'cachet' on SC's HK thread) looking for misspelled French words I use and wonder how someone who graduated 30 years ago with a minor in English Lit could possibly EVER misspell ANY word ever again? Don't you have better things to do with your time? Good grief.

As for your sister's kids, maybe they can study at your knee, so if they misspell any of their words you can correct them personally, on the spot.

JL

PS- I think Texas is a great place to use for a bogus member account to throw people off your Brit tracks, btw.

(Matt, I humbly apologize for intruding with another mini-bitchfest. Stops here)

[Art]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_2QfdHm3NCjs/RnkoiuwCinI/AAAAAAAAARY/49YEUvEtuvE/s400/Kamihunde.jpg
An airfield in Isaan. ┬╗I can do everything!┬л Not yet fully civilized?



I think a lot of Thai boys are "opportunists" as well. They're ordinary students or service workers who don't mind sleeping with an older guy to get a bit of cash... but they wouldn't define themselves as prostitutes. .. I think this is something you won't find as common in wealthier Western countries. [...]

I also found in some Asian cultures, there's less taboo in paying for sex.
┬╗A recent study showed that prostitution is high on the list of "professions" that modern Russian schoolgirls dream of pursuing.┬л


Gender, Prostitution, and the тАЬStandards of CivilizationтАЭ

[тАж] The establishment of Western authority rested heavily on colonial discourses that marked the differences between Siamese and Westerners in sexualized and gendered terms. Thus, during the imperial era, Siam was represented by Westerners as feminine, or improperly masculine, and, therefore, as naturally subordinate to the тАЬmanlyтАЭ Western states. The importance of proper gender and sexual behaviour to the тАЬstandards of civilizationтАЭ were made very clear in the Western critique of polygamy and extended into the later international campaign against prostitution. Measuring up to Western standards of gender and sexual behaviour, therefore, became a central plank in Siamese/Thai policy as the country fought to maintain sovereign status and international respect; however, this also generated elite male resistance to the imposition of Western sexual standards. Thus, while polygamy was outlawed in 1935 and prostitution was eventually outlawed in 1960, elite men continued to resist these changes. [...]

Gender and Prostitution in the Early Modern Siamese State

The polygamous marital system of Siam was an integral part of the national and international politics of the tributary kingdoms of Asia [тАж]

Women played an important role in the harem as consorts and wives of the king, producing both heirs to the throne and staff for the state. As well, elite women provided a bond between rulers and between rulers and nobles in a state and inter-state system based on tribute and alliances. Gifts of women as wives from nobles to the king, and vice versa, cemented ties of loyalty and service between rulers of different spheres of influence. The sexual behaviour of elite women, particularly those within the kingтАЩs harem, was closely guarded as their bodies marked the boundaries of the state. Thus, control of womenтАЩs bodies increased with their closeness to the centre of influence, the king himself. One of the earliest available historical sources тАУ the account of a French nobleman, Simon de la Loub├иre, in Siam on a diplomatic mission in the late 1600s тАУ tells us that elite women were severely punished for adultery and promiscuity. The kingтАЩs wives were most strictly guarded, being housed in the inner palace, which was peopled entirely of women presided over by the queen or principle wife of the king and guarded by female guards. The penalty for promiscuity on the part of a member of the kingтАЩs harem was to be sold to a brothel owner or, sometimes, to be killed. 2 Thus, for elite women sexual misbehaviour was punished by being forced into sexual service, although this was most likely understood in terms of concubinage (as discussed below) rather than as prostitution in the modern Western sense of the term.

There was much less control over the sexual behaviour of women outside this immediate sphere of elite power. Marriage and divorce were a matter of relative ease, and virginity was not a requirement before marriage. Women traders exchanged sexual favours as well as goods, often contracting тАЬtemporary marriagesтАЭ with foreigners. While non-elite women appear to have been fairly self-determining in their sexual practices, it is important to remember that Siam was also a slave society. Slavery in Southeast Asia was not the absolute slave system of Europe and America; while there were тАЬabsolute slavesтАЭ in the European sense (usually war captives), there were also a large number of bonded debtors who sold themselves or were sold into slavery and could buy their way out again. In the class system of Siam, women and children were not entirely independent actors: they could be sold into debt bondage by their husbands or fathers. Unmarried female slaves often acted as concubines to their masters or their mastersтАЩ guests.

Commercial prostitution, as opposed to the indigenous practice of concubinage, appeared in Southeast Asia in the late 1600s. 3 According to Barbara Andaya, European disregard for the strictures of fidelity and support of the temporary marriage system rapidly eroded local practices and beliefs, and, with them, womenтАЩs status. Increasingly, liaisons were contracted between European men and marginalized women (e.g., slaves, ex-slaves, and foreigners) who were far from the protections of home. 4 Within this context, the sexual relations between foreign men and local women began to more closely resemble modern understandings of prostitution as a commercial transaction. The proceeds from brothel prostitution were taxed by the king, but prostitution was not otherwise regulated. 5 In the 1800s, prostitution appears often to have been practised in boats anchored in city harbours, the prostitutes consisting mostly of women who had been sold into debt bondage.

Polygamy loomed large in the eyes of Westerners who dealt with the elite in Siam in the mid-1800s. The harems of notables were a matter of much concern (and titillation) on the part of missionaries and diplomats alike. The British envoy Sir John Bowring held numerous discussions with King Mongkut (1851-68) тАУ while negotiating the famous trade treaty тАУ on the practice that Westerners found тАЬexotic, self-indulgent, and uncivilized.тАЭ11 Dr. Dan Bradley, the most prominent American missionary in Bangkok, who had a close relationship with King Mongkut, admonished the king in the Bangkok Calendar (an expatriate paper published by Bradley), saying, тАЬvirtue can never have much sway in Siam, nor any true prosperity, until polygamy is made a crime by the Government.тАЭ12 The enormously popular (in the West) accounts of life in the Inner Palace penned by Anna Leonowens in the 1850s often characterized the despair and cruelty of the lives of women тАЬlocked awayтАЭ in the harem. The tyrannical treatment of women that polygamy was presumed to involve indicated to Westerners a lack of the kind of (gentle)manly virtues associated with Western governance. Such representations of native practices were commonplace throughout the Empire, legitimizing the imperial mission by presenting, as Gayatri Spivak puts it, White men saving тАЬbrown women from brown men.тАЭ13

Polygamy, to Western observers, evidenced the lack of sexual control among the Siamese (men) and, therefore, in the imperialist ideology, the Siamese lack of тАЬmoral characterтАЭ; that is, the quality that underwrote the imperial right to rule. The sexual excess that was assumed to be represented by polygamy was thought to bring about physical exhaustion, the degeneration of moral and physical character, and, therefore, the inability to govern. In the late 1800s, a memorandum from a British official in Siam who was worried about the likelihood of a French takeover read: тАЬThe King, who is honest, after a period of dangerous physical weakness, has regained strength, but is quite incapable mentally, exhausted by women, anxiety and opiates.тАЭ14 According to imperialist thought, such dissolute behaviour rendered rational, scientific, and morally upright rule impossible and, instead, led to an excess of cruelty. Joseph Balestier, an American diplomat in Siam in the mid-1800s, brought together the themes of excessiveness and the inability to rule when he remarked in his report to the secretary of state: тАЬThe present King of Siam is a sensualist having no less than a thousand women in his harem and a devotee of Buddhism with a retinue of forty thousand priests and forty wats or temples ... Upon these he spends the entire income of the kingdom. But though he reigns he does not govern the State, the administration of which is in the hands of rapacious and arbitrary lords who, by a heartless and relentless course towards their vassals and serfs and the Chinese are fast bringing about the utter ruin of the country.тАЭ15 According to this understanding, only the self-controlled behaviour of Western men could produce governance. Siamese masculinity, on the other hand, led to despotism.

While the critique of polygamy appeared to have the treatment of women at heart, in fact it did not. Throughout the colonial world the focus of such critiques was not the status of women. Indeed, Europeans almost universally regarded Southeast Asian women as sexually тАЬloose,тАЭ and the accounts of travellers and traders are full of bawdy stories of Southeast Asian womenтАЩs sexual behaviour. 16 Westerners were never concerned about the actual daily lives of women; rather, as Lata Mani has argued in the Indian case, what concerned them was the fact that тАЬwomen [were] the site on which tradition was debated and reformulated. What was at stake was not women but tradition.тАЭ17 In other words, the critics of polygamy were concerned with asserting the barbarity of indigenous culture and the superiority of imperial civilization. Indeed, when polygamy was finally rendered illegal in 1936 through, under British legal advice, the rewriting of the marriage provisions in the Civil Code, men were given the right to divorce their wives for infidelity but wives were denied the same right. 18 The focus of these reforms, therefore, was clearly not on providing women with more fair and equitable treatment in marriage customs. Polygamy in Siam, as constructed and represented by Westerners, evidenced Siamese inability to rule due to their lack of proper masculine behaviour and sexual control. Ending the practice of polygamy, therefore, was one of the conditions of SiamтАЩs entry into the company of тАЬcivilizedтАЭ nations.

By targeting gender and sexual practices such as polygamy as representative of the essential barbarity of Siamese culture, however, the imperial powers also made gender and sexuality a key terrain of the power struggle between colonized and colonizing countries. Male Siamese elites resisted changes to the polygamous system, even producing a written defence of the practice for the edification of foreigners, defending it as a reflection of Buddhist culture and its particular gender system. 19 Male monarchs made various nods in the direction of changing womenтАЩs status; however, as groups of modernizing Siamese elites themselves came to question the absolute monarchy and the polygamous system in the late 1800s, monarchs began to defend the practice more vigorously. King Vajiravudh (1910-25), despite his strongly nationalist program, which included making Siamese women appear тАЬrespectableтАЭ and тАЬcivilizedтАЭ in the eyes of the world, abandoned his initial promise to remain monogamous and began to argue against the adoption of monogamy. 20 He argued, for instance, that polygamy at least provided protections for minor wives, unlike the system under which the so-called тАЬmodern eliteтАЭ easily discarded their mistresses. 21 The monarchs and pro-monarchy elites, not unjustifiably, read the attacks on polygamy as attacks on the entire monarchical system, and the practice took on a certain intractability and importance for the defence of national identity (as viewed by the pro-monarchy establishment). Nonetheless, the monarchs and elites were well aware that changes to gendered practices such as polygamy and, later, prostitution constituted a key element to entering the company of the so-called civilized nations.

Prostitution in the Imperial Era and the Internationalizing of Western Gender Codes

It is within the context of the struggle over polygamy and gendered practices that the changing policies on prostitution, both national and international, need to be viewed. Beginning in the early 1900s, living up to Western standards of dealing with prostitution and the traffic in women became an important part of the Siamese governmentтАЩs policy with regard to becoming a full member of the international community. While polygamy had been the subject of constant Western condemnation from the early 1800s onward, thus firmly establishing sexual behaviour and gender roles as grounds for differentiating superior and inferior cultures, prostitution was the subject of much less attention тАУ until the turn of the century. In part, this reflected the colonial powersтАЩ own awkward position vis-├а-vis prostitution, which was generally viewed as a тАЬnecessary evil.тАЭ

Leslie Ann Jeffrey. Sex and Borders: Gender, National Identity, and Prostitution Policy in Thailand. Vancouver: University of British Columbia Press, 2002. http://www.ubcpress.ca/books/pdf/chapters/jeffrey/chap1.pdf
http://www.ubcpress.ubc.ca/search/title_book.asp?BookID=1934



B-52 in Thailand┬╗The best solution was to base the B-52's in South Vietnam or in Thailand. The cost to upgrade an existing Vietnamese Air Base was high, and the security questions were also troubling. U-Tapao had an existing runway suitable for the bombers and the cost for upgrades to the base was minimal.

In January 1967, negotiations between the Americans and Thai government started to base them at U-Tapao. The agreement, reached on 2 March 1967 allowed 15 bombers and their support personnel to be based at U-Tapao, with the provision that missions flown from Thailand would not over fly Laos or Cambodia on their way to their targets in Vietnam.

The first B-52's arrived on 10 April 1967. The very next day, B-52 operations were initiated at U-Tapao.┬л
http://vdha.us/stuff/contentmgr/files/c95deb515383cc7442fe9b4dc878a0f8/docs/u_tapao_historical_brief.pdf

Peaceful Buddhists help peaceful Christians, or vice versa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd9Zb8JVXCg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wiJMc5Z3_M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o8exLFWUy4

[youtube:31eb2nul]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKG_f9_C5-8[/youtube:31eb2nul]

Helpful natives, helpful tourists
┬╗[...] until Thailand was host to 45,000 US army and air force personnel in 1969. The first air strike on North Vietnam was flown from Thailand in December 1964. Three-quarters of the bomb tonnage dropped on North Vietnam and Laos in 1965-1968 was flown out of seven US bases in eastern Thailand. Thai troops were secretly hired as virtual mercenaries to fight in Laos from 1960. Some 11,000 Thai troops went to fight alongside the US in South Vietnam in 1967.

Bangkok was chosen for the GIs' R&R ('rest and recreation tours'), with 45,000 visiting by 1967. New Phetchaburi Road became an 'American strip' lined with bars, night clubs, brothels, and massage parlours. Similar clusters mushroomed around the US air bases. The sex industry was not new; the public garishness was.

Estimates of the number of prostitutes in Bangkok ranged up to 300,000. The interior minister, General Praphat Charusathian, wanted even more because they attracted tourists and boosted the economy. Until the late 1950s, Thailand had no organized tourism industry, only 871 tourist-standard rooms, and only 40,000 foreign visitors a year. In 1959, a tourist authority was formed as part of development planning. In the early 1960s, a new runway was built at Don Muang airport to accommodate jets. Total foreign visitors grew rapidly to over 600,000 by 1970, when tourism was ranked as the fifth largest earner of foreign exchange. The largest group of visitors was American. The mid-1969s saw a frenzy of hotel building which added over 7000 rooms.┬л Chris Baker, Pasuk Phongpaichit. A History of Thailand. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005.

Justin Hall: Prostitution in Thailand and Southeast Asia
http://www.links.net/vita/swat/course/prosthai.html

[Beachlover]

What happened to the world class degree in English literature? You need spell check to get accoutrement? I'll let my sister know she's wasting her money wanting to send the kids to an Ivy League school.

Who gives a toss? It was a minor error.

[cdnmatt]

What happened to the world class degree in English literature? You need spell check to get accoutrement? I'll let my sister know she's wasting her money wanting to send the kids to an Ivy League school.

So by your logic, when someone makes a small typo in one post on a message forum where they have hundreds of posts, that means the institution they were educated at is useless and shitty? That makes alot of sense.

[Dodger]

cdmatt...

I like your spirit, as well as your sense of reality; that if things were not to work out in the future - the adventure will have been worth experiencing any way.

For some (or most), this notion is insane; maybe it's the fear factor, or just plain old common sense...who knows. Understanding that 95% of these farang/Thai relationships fail miserably in the end lays a pretty solid foundation for a debate against such actions, although there are always those who become the 5%, where such a debate would be meaningless.

I had a home built up in Isaan for my previous bf and his family, which, in-and-by-itself, was quite an experience. Things did not work out between us, although the experience can never be erased, nor the good feelings I have knowing that the home I provided will be appreciated by so many - for so long. Am I consumed with sorrow? - you bet I am, but when I stop feeling pain I'll be dead.

Good luck...enjoy each moment...and keep living.

[Beachlover]

Our lives are simply a collection of experiences...

I think the best answer to the meaning of life was written by Tim Ferris in his book, the Four Hour Work Week... something along the lines of "the meaning of life is to enjoy it and feel good about yourself"...

He goes onto say that feeling good about yourself comes in different forms for different people... some aspire to a happy and prosperous family... some aspire to explore and see the world... some aspire to help others.... some to build large empires... and some want to f*ck as many boys as possible in the last decades of their life (nothing wrong with that).

Matt,

Thanks for the thanks and, I hope, taking what I said in the spirit that it was written.

I think we are actually reading from the same book (most of the time!)

It is "worth trying" beyond any possible doubt. If you don't then you will never know whether it would have worked or not, you will always regret it and, whatever happens, you will be richer for it (at least figuratively!).

Education. Agreed 100% - if he is not interested in it then it is a complete waste of time. Forget it

A Business. I understand keeping friends and business separate - my suggestion of a partnership was because of the idea of funding it as a loan, which I think has even more potential problems. Loans are paid back, gifts are not, and just because you are not going to lose any sleep over whether you get it back or not, maybe he is. If you would like it back, but don't need it back, then be honest and say so.

Love. Why keep putting time limits on it? First you were looking at 2 years, then 3, now 5! My partner is talking about what we will be doing in 50 years, and I am a lot older than you!

Holy water. The closest analogy is that the water is being blessed, becoming holy water. After that you are meant to go and pour it over the roots of a tree of your choice, while remembering about, praying for and thanking the departed and the absent (parents, in particular). It doesn't actually matter too much what it is poured from and to, but if you want to be included you don't need your own water, just to touch Kim while he is doing it (shouldn't be too difficult!).

I gave you hell for talking about coming down to their level - not for trying to see things at his level!

Sorry, but if you "know enough Thai to get around" you should know that "mua-lia kun sanuk, pom sanuk. mua-lia kun long-hai, pom long-hai" does not mean "when you're happy, I'm happy. when you cry, I cry" and would mean nothing to most Thais outside Pattaya! Mua-lia, or more commonly meua-rai, is a question, interrogative, (as in when was it?) - what you are after is simply meua.

How dare people generalise.

Agreed, Steve.

A pity you spoilt it by adding your own rather negative generalisation of "Maybe if some of the "farangs" think they will find a life partner by picking something up from a bar wake up and realise that you have to get out into the REAL Thailand to meet the man of your dreams!".

[Surfcrest]

rather negative generalization?

Sounds like you fall into that rather negative generalization.

[a447]

I can't believe that anyone would be so stupid (deluded??) to buy a guy a house or a farm!! I mean, what sort of money are we looking at here? $10,000? $50,000? More? Or send monthly payments from abroad. All this for a "bf" you have to pay to stay with you in the first place? That's sad. For a REAL bf; i.e. one who spends his life with you for who you are, not your money, it may be a reasonable proposition, but surely not for a prostitute. Of course, how people spend their money is their own business, I guess....I just can't fathom the reasoning behind it except to think these benefactors are fooling themselves. They are not fooling the guys, that's for sure.

[Art]

http://blogs.indystar.com/varvelblog/01272008.jpg



What's funny for me is that I tend to pick straight guys and they all are so keen to keep the friendship going even after it's obvious there's no future. They try so hard to keep the connection, though it's impossibly incoherent to be a Thai bf to a gay farang when they obviously are not gay and only want the daddy aspect. I wonder if the lack of a strong father figure drives that dynamic.

Incoherence? The sexual self-identification has nothing to do with non-sexual and non-monetary interaction. Isn't the intergenerational interest in your personality the biggest possible compliment? Without doubt a well-liked father figure is welcome. And it may also be attractive to know someone who comes from a different planet with a different set of opinions. The absence of the father or a functional equivalent is a problem, but the abandonment of the son by the father is even more serious:



┬╗Abandonment is about the loss of love and a loss of connectedness. To the abandoned adolescent, it involves feelings of betrayal, guilt, loneliness, and lack of self-esteem. Abandonment is a core fear in humans, and this fear is intensified in adolescents.┬л



┬╗Dad's ashes up for sale on eBay┬л

┬╗My dad is a piece of garbage like that guy's. I haven't seen him in 35 years and he never sent a penny to help my Mother raise me.

┬╗Ebay has a policy that forbids remains or body parts from being sold.
Guaranteed they will cancel the auction.┬л



┬╗We finally met him and from the first day he lied about so many things. For example he lied about our blood tests - he said it was required for the maintenance payments. However the real story is that he thought my mum was sleeping around and we weren't his kids. In reality he did it so he wouldn't have to pay for us. The blood tests proved that we were his kids. From the first day in meeting him he asked me if I want this relationship and I told him "Of course, I wouldn't be here if I didn't". This signified to me that he wasn't keen on this relationship, as if it didn't matter to him whether we're in it or not.

I have forgiven him for the past. I have accepted him and all of his explanations as to why he left and why he doesn't have time. It seems he has moved on happily with his life without me or that he doesn't know how to love me. I have made many attempts and adjustments to make room for him in my life, he hasn't done the same. I am very hurt and saddened by this. It's been two years now, and we see each other a handful of times a year and talk or email about once a month most of which are initiated by me.

When I have left it up to him to initiate communication, he lets weeks or months go by. It's become painfully clear that I am not a priority to him and I won't be any time soon... My question is now what? Do I continue a relationship with someone just for the sake or having one... or do I walk away because I came searching for my father, and unfortunately, he isn't much a father... to me anyway. I feel like I am being abandoned by him yet again.┬л



┬╗By the time children reach the early school years, ages six to nine, they can no longer deny the reality of the abandonment. They are extremely aware of the pervasive pain and sadness. Boys, especially, mourn the loss of their fathers, and their anger is frequently directed at their mothers. Crying, daydreaming, and problems with friends and in school are common abandonment behaviors in children of this age.

In the age group of nine to 12, adolescents usually react to abandonment with anger. They may also resent the additional household duties expected of them. There is also a significant disruption in the child's ability to learn. Anxiety, restlessness, inability to concentrate, and intrusive thoughts about the abandonment take a toll and can lead to a drop in school performance and difficulties with classmates.

Feelings of sadness, loneliness, guilt, lack of self worth, and self-blame are common in nine to 12-year-olds. They also tend to have concerns about family life, worry about finances, and feel they are a drain on the remaining parent's resources.

In children ages 13 to 18, the feelings are usually the same as with the younger groups except more pronounced. They become concerned about their own futures. Truancy is high, school performance is low, and they have a distorted view of themselves. In this population there is a high incidence of drug and alcohol abuse and aggressive behavior.

The teen may also withdraw from all relationships, including those with friends, family, and classmates, and become extremely dependent on the remaining parent. Teens may also react by becoming sexually promiscuous at an early age, sometimes to the point of addiction. Sometimes, however, the child makes valuable decisions about their own future and values.

Common Problems: Problems to watch for include trouble sleeping, crying, aggression, deep anger and resentment, feelings of betrayal, difficulty concentrating, chronic fatigue, and problems with friends or at school.┬л



┬╗I have two sons, 14 and 8. The 14-year-old is from a previous marriage -- his father abandoned him. The younger one's father is around although we are not married. I found the older was getting aggressive towards the younger one because the young one was telling the older to stop saying "Dad" to his dad. I spoke to both, and tried for peace, what else can I do?┬л



┬╗I never talk about him. I never mention him. None of my friends have ever heard me speak of him. There is no one in my life that I call Dad. That is easily the word I have used the least since I learned to speak.

The one time I have ever seen him, I was only 9 years old. I remember my mother coming to school to pick me up and saying "we're going home so you can change then you're going to go see your dad." I was so innocent. I got so excited. I pulled my favorite lacy pink dress out of the closet and put it on as quickly as possible. I just couldn't contain my excitement. Finally I was going to see him. Finally he wanted to be a part of my life. Oh God...it still hurts so much....

I remember walking into the courtroom. I remember the cold chair. And most of all, I remember turning at the exact moment he entered the room. "that's him" I muttered. I just knew.

Everything after that I wish I could forget. The judge asking why we were there. Him saying I wasn't his daughter. Calling my mother by every name he could think of. The most vivid memory though, has to be the nurses room.

I still didn't understand what was going on. I didn't know why he hadn't hugged me yet, why he didn't act the way all my other friends' fathers treated them. He was so cold to me. It took 2 nurses to hold me down so they could take the blood from my arm. I was crying hysterically. I was only 9 years old. I didn't know what a blood test for paternity was. I didn't even know this man who so coldly told the nurses to hurry up, he had other things to do. But I know, I'll never forget that moment. Never.

When the results came back stating that I was most definitely his daughter, I never saw or heard from him again. Go figure. I'm 21 years old now, and I've yet to meet my father.┬л

[cdnmatt]

All this for a "bf" you have to pay to stay with you in the first place? That's sad. For a REAL bf; i.e. one who spends his life with you for who you are, not your money, it may be a reasonable proposition, but surely not for a prostitute.

That's a bit short-sighted and arrogant, no? This is the common perception though, which is why the majority of conversations with my family now contain a subtle version of, "Geez Matt, are you really that stupid? Whatever though, it's your life...".

For one, it would be impossible for a long-term Thai-farang relationship to work, unless there was at least some emotional connection there. Otherwise, it would eventually fall apart. That, and if the Thai is honest and straight forward, instead of being a devious little shithead, I really can't see how this is any different than a woman hooking up with a guy in the West, and the guy being financially responsible. Especially if the Thai has proven over and over that he is actually there for you. If you have a bad day, he'll be right there to give you a hug, and let you know it's ok.

Tell me, how is that any different than the millions of "genuine" relationships that exist? We live together, share our lives together, know the little idiosyncrisies (sp) about each other, go on vacation together, know what each other is doing at almost all times during the day, etc.

And without question, I can say he genuinely loves me, and enjoys having me in life. You're right though, I don't know exactly why he loves me. Does he love me because I'm his ticket to a good life? Maybe because his life is much easier and more worry free now, and he gets to go out and enjoy life more, instead of working 16 hour days for a poverty wage? Or does he actually love me for the person I am, and because I have a good heart? My guess is a combination of all, but I doubt I'll ever know for certain, because I'll never be able to fully remove the financial aspects from the relationship. Our monthly incomes dictate that I'm financially responsible, which I'm fine with. Nonetheless, I don't see how that's any different than a typical relationship in the West. We make each other happy, and that's what matters.

And just because he's a poverty stricken Thai from Issan, why does that make him any less capable or deserving of love, or any less loyal of a boyfriend. If anything, I'd argue it's the total opposite.

I've completely given up trying to explain this to my family though, because they're simply unwilling to comprehend it. So fuck 'em, they can think what they want. Now when the topic comes up, I just say, "just know that I'm happy, and don't worry about the rest".

I should maybe also mention though, I'm not old enough to be his grandpa, and I don't weigh as much as a small truck. I'm 28, have always looked younger than my age, and I'm definitely not gorgeous anymore, but I'm far from ugly as well. When I spend a night in Sunnee, I usually get hit on by a couple farangs, and sometimes they even buy me free drinks, so I couldn't be too ugly yet. And there's only an 8 year age difference between us, so it is actually plausible that we're together.

[a447]

That's a bit short-sighted and arrogant, no?
No.


Tell me, how is that any different than the millions of "genuine" relationships that exist? We live together, share our lives together, know the little idiosyncrisies (sp) about each other, go on vacation together, know what each other is doing at almost all times during the day, etc.
It is different because the relationship is not dependant on one person financially supporting another. In those cases, no money does not mean no honey. If it did, the relationships would be over.


If you have a bad day, he'll be right there to give you a hug, and let you know it's ok.
Would he be there if you withdrew your financial support? Would his love alone for you be enough for him?

Now, having said all that, I was of the mistaken idea that you were some fat old bastard. It is to those people, who constantly refer to their prostitues as "boyfriends" that my comments were directed. Now I read that you are only 28, your situation is a lot more credible. And I am more than a little bit envious!

[Beachlover]

Maybe your family will get used to it and understand it after a while. Especially if they get to meet him. Perhaps consider starting to bring him along when you see your parents when you visit them in the near future.

Tell me, how is that any different than the millions of "genuine" relationships that exist? We live together, share our lives together, know the little idiosyncrisies (sp) about each other, go on vacation together, know what each other is doing at almost all times during the day, etc.
It is different because the relationship is not dependant on one person financially supporting another.

So any relationship where one person is financially supporting another is not a "genuine" relationship, and effectively equates to a paid relationship with a prostitute? .... so in order for it to be a "genuine" relationship both must be putting in a similar amount? .... is that a recent development, or did it also apply in the days when most wives were simply "housewives" and their husbands wee the only ones earning?.... and what of the relationship if one of the two was a prostitute, and they were the one putting in more?

And how does anyone know "no money does not mean no honey" until they try it? ...

Rubbish relationships between farangs and working / ex-working boys by all means - many do, some with justification, others with bitterness, but at least make an attempt to justify your condemnation. Simply saying that they are not "credible" relationships because only one partner is contributing financially is hardly a sound reason when that is the case in so many relationships - possibly most, in the more affluent West.

That's a bit short-sighted and arrogant, no? This is the common perception though, which is why the majority of conversations with my family now contain a subtle version of, "Geez Matt, are you really that stupid? Whatever though, it's your life...".

And just because he's a poverty stricken Thai from Issan, why does that make him any less capable or deserving of love, or any less loyal of a boyfriend. If anything, I'd argue it's the total opposite.



cdnmatt, just asking because I didn't quite get that point before yet, does your bf have any work in Khon Kaen (where you live now, correct me if I'm wrong)? Do you have a work there? Or how do you finance all that?

It might interest you - even though I was one of the guys who started the "generalizing" before - that I was in a rather similar situation. I had a bf too, also from Issan, and we lived really happily together for the 18 months that I stayed and worked in Thailand (Issan first, BKK after). I was then 24 years old.
I finally decided that I had to return to Europe to finish my studies and am now a PhD student.

And during this time, back here, the strangest thing happened.
First, coming to back to the cold, unwelcoming "western civilization", I felt very depressed. I loved my bf very much and had never "fooled around" with anyone while staying with him, and I believe he was equally faithful. So, back in the west, we had our daily phone calls, and the 6 months that I spent here before returning to Thailand for a holiday seemed like eternity to me.
Back with him for the holiday time, I found a few messages on his mobile phone (yea, nosy me, I'm a bad person) indicating he had had contact to other people, probably people that he had befriended in discos or wherever. I was quite hurt but quickly believed his assurances that he loved only me and had just been lonely and "forced" by his Thai friends to go out and have some fun. That far, I still believed in him (a lot).

Then, back here, I met another Thai person from university. He was (and still is) studying Mathematics, and wanted to do some "language partnership" thing, where you teach foreign students your language and they teach you theirs. He was very straight acting and I didn't suspect he was gay, and he was absolutely not my type; what's more, I could practise my Thai :)
We started developing a friendship and I opened up a bit and talked about the difficult situation I was in, being separated from my love and neither feeling completely at home in my country, nor in Thailand. He asked a few questions that really made me think. For example, why it was me and not my bf who "thought a lot" about the future; why, even then as a student, possessing nearly nothing, I sent money to him regularly and was the one who always called and always cared while my bf would very seldomly call me - and so on.

It was then that I argued nearly exactly as you do now - even though we were the same age, I was from the rich country, while he was from the poor, from a family that didn't really love and care for him (7 children, you might know a similar story), a guy that needed my love and attention much more than my money (which was little enough).

My friend helped me to put some things straight that I hadn't imagined before. E.g., that Thai people normally feel ashamed to take money from foreigners; that even if they earn only 5000-7000 Baht/month, they could survive, and proudly so; and so on.

Well, to cut the story short, when I found out from word of mouth that my bf was frequently seen with other men (that was about a year after I had left Thailand), I confronted him about it, and gave him a chance to make it up to me by just putting a bit of effort into making feel he cared for me, which he didn't.

So I finally stopped calling him, and while that was very hard for me, he didn't seem to care too much and called me only about once a month, sometimes asking for money, sometimes just to "check" on me. Let me make it very clear at this point that he really, genuinely loved me while we stayed together in Thailand. Why the things happened as they did happen after I had left, I don't really know.

To make it short, the other guy (the student) is now my bf, and we have a relationship that I didn't think possible with a Thai - a relationship that is totally NOT about money (even though his family is not exactly rich), that is mature to a Thai extent :) (which still means watching Thai series with max volume in the middle of the night ;)

The way he cares for me and for my family, and the way I was received while on holiday with him in his hometown (Nakhon Si Thammarat in the south) shows me how sincere he is about us, and even though I know that he has to go back to Thailand and work at university after finishing his PhD here (such are the conditions of his scholarship), I don't dread the future; I'm sure we'll find a way.

That was a long story. The point that I wanted to get across is that, in my opinion, a relationship is only stable and strong as long as both partners try to contribute to it equally. It goes without saying that if your salary is higher, you might want to shoulder more of the financial burden. That's why I asked you if your bf has a job, because I believe that he should try to contribute as well, for his own sake, to not in the end be just your "pet" (to put it very harshly).

Thanks for reading all this :)

[cdnmatt]

Hey Tiuri,

Thanks for the story, and glad to know you found a great BF to share life with. The only thing about your story is it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with him being from Issan, or any financial reasons. It's simply because you went to Europe for a long period of time, and long-distance relationships are tough. He got lonely, human nature took over, and he naturally met new people. Do you think he would have stayed loving and faithful to you, if you would have stayed in Thailand? Do you think maybe he was hurt that you went to Europe on him, and a part of him seen it as though you weren't actually going to be there for him in the long-term?

That reason is why tons of "genuine" relationships don't work out in the long-term. Maybe the husband is in the military, or maybe his work dictates he's only seldom home, etc. I could even say it's one of the main reasons the relationship with my ex-husband didn't work out. We were only a four hour flight away, and spent about 60% of our time together, but nonetheless, it definitely took its toll on the relationship.

[Beachlover]

That's a really interesting story, Turi. Thanks for telling us.

Heh... I think the Thai student in your home country was thinking "if only I could get this guy away from that other Thai boy!"... the schemer! lol.

[Beachlover]

Yeah... I think I would find it hard to remain faithful to a Thai boy overseas if I was living in Thailand. There's one thing to be lonely... but another to be lonely and surrounded by so many cute, friendly boys... some of which throw themselves at you.

Hey Tiuri,

Thanks for the story, and glad to know you found a great BF to share life with. The only thing about your story is it doesn't sound like it has anything to do with him being from Issan, or any financial reasons. It's simply because you went to Europe for a long period of time, and long-distance relationships are tough. He got lonely, human nature took over, and he naturally met new people. Do you think he would have stayed loving and faithful to you, if you would have stayed in Thailand? Do you think maybe he was hurt that you went to Europe on him, and a part of him seen it as though you weren't actually going to be there for him in the long-term?

That reason is why tons of "genuine" relationships don't work out in the long-term. Maybe the husband is in the military, or maybe his work dictates he's only seldom home, etc. I could even say it's one of the main reasons the relationship with my ex-husband didn't work out. We were only a four hour flight away, and spent about 60% of our time together, but nonetheless, it definitely took its toll on the relationship.

Hi Matt,

that's why I took care to point out that I am convinced that he really loved me at the time. And I don't blame him at all.

The point that I wanted to make was about two things:
First, both partners should invest in the relationship, not only one taking care of the other; which in your case, as I understand, is definitely the case.

Second, it's a simple experience that I gained from this, obviously our plans for the future were not the same - had I stayed with him in Thailand, I would have just continued to be a teacher, earning more than most Thais but not nearly comparable to what I was going to earn after finishing my MSc/PhD.
I was committed to him, but I thought we could make it and I could finish my study and then see what came next (moving to Thailand again, or getting him to live with me here). It might be a typical Thai thing, or it might just have been him, but I just realized that if he really wanted to spend the rest of his life with me, he should have held on to the hope that we would make it. Instead, he obviously chose to give up and get a new bf.

With my "new" bf (we've been together two years now, so it's not so new), although we will face the same problem soon, I feel we both have a more mature stance on what will realistically happen to our lives, and we will be apart, at least for a while, once he needs to go back to Thailand. Nevertheless, we'll both try to make it work and find a way how we can be together. If it doesn't work out in the end, that's just life.

[colmx]

We started developing a friendship and I opened up a bit and talked about the difficult situation I was in, being separated from my love and neither feeling completely at home in my country, nor in Thailand. He asked a few questions that really made me think. For example, why it was me and not my bf who "thought a lot" about the future; why, even then as a student, possessing nearly nothing, I sent money to him regularly and was the one who always called and always cared while my bf would very seldomly call me - and so on.

It was then that I argued nearly exactly as you do now - even though we were the same age, I was from the rich country, while he was from the poor, from a family that didn't really love and care for him (7 children, you might know a similar story), a guy that needed my love and attention much more than my money (which was little enough).


I don't want to throw any acid on your story Tiuri... But as someone who is involved in a 7 year Long distance relationship with a Thai guy since i was 28... I am amazed at how often European based Thai guys that i meet (or more frequently Malay and Pinoy guys) try to undermine the relationship i have with my BF

I am not saying that your current BF specifically undermined the relationship that you had with your ex-BF... but lets face facts... if he is rich enough to go abroad to study... he is rich enough to but your ex-BFs village ten times over... and more tan capable of looking down his nose at his poor countrymen

In my opinion Little Emporers like this very rarely make Decent BFs either

I don't want to throw any acid on your story Tiuri... But as someone who is involved in a 7 year Long distance relationship with a Thai guy since i was 28... I am amazed at how often European based Thai guys that i meet (or more frequently Malay and Pinoy guys) try to undermine the relationship i have with my BF

I am not saying that your current BF specifically undermined the relationship that you had with your current BF... but lets face facts... if he is rich enough to go abroad to study... he is rich enough to but your ex-BFs village ten times over... and more tan capable of looking down his nose at his poor countrymen

In my opinion Little Emporers like this very rarely make Decent BFs either

No problem ;)

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on that part of the story. We did not become boyfriends until the relationship to my ex-bf was well over. I took my time, I don't like to rush from one thing to the next, really.

His family is not rich and would never be able to support him to study here. He's a scholarship student who was chosen for a scholarship at the age of 15. That's also the reason why he doesn't have any say in his future. He was sent here to get a Master degree and then a PhD in mathematics and is supported by the government until that is achieved. He then needs to return to Thailand to teach at university (or pay the money back two times over, which is nothing he or I could afford without winning the lottery).

He never tried to "steal" me.

What's more, compared to my ex-bf, he's never asked me for money, even though I would give it gladly. That was one thing that really upset me about the family of my ex-bf: When I visited his home one time in 2005, I met his mum, and she implied that I was to be the benefactor of the family (not only of her son) because "my cousin has a farang husband and he pays for everything".
While I didn't mind giving money to my ex-bf, I was a bit upset by this plain demand of his mother. I plainly had the impression that she didn't give a shit if her daughters or sons went into prostitution, as long as she got some money out of it. She didn't seem like a poor farmer's wife close to starvation either, with a nice house and all the rest.

Of course that is not a general example of "Issan family behavior", but it's not the first time I've heard of it. Oh well, I am generalizing again :)

First, both partners should invest in the relationship, not only one taking care of the other

A few initial thoughts .....

First, what do you mean by "invest"? If you are talking in purely financial terms then yours is not a relationship I would envy, where comparing bank balances is even considered any part of the equation/relationship. If "investment" has a wider meaning, however, I would agree with you. In mine and my partner's case, for example, we both "invested" equally with 100% of everything we had - heart, body and soul as well as the bank balances. Everything we owned individually before we now own jointly, just as everything we did individually before we now do together. That, to me, makes for a far more "stable and strong" relationship than one where one partner expects the other to "contribute equally" regardless of circumstances.

Secondly, Matt has made it clear that he hopes that Kim finds something to do and plans on helping him if necessary - and if KIm doesn't then I think the relationship is doomed, as Matt will be spending much of each day working while Kim will either be getting bored out of his skull or be getting up to the things that many young men end up doing when they have nothing better to do and money to spare.

In many other cases, however, particularly where neither partner needs to work to finance the relationship and maintain a satisfactory standard of living, that is not necessarily the case. While Bill Gates may have had some misgivings about anyone's motivation for having a relationship with him, if he had waited until someone came along who could "try to contribute to it equally" he would be a very lonely man! Sadly I am not in his league and I doubt if many others are who are reading this thread, but the same principle still applies. I am retired and have not worked for several years, but I do not have the time to get bored; if my partner were to work any financial contribution he could make, at least at the present time, would only make a marginal difference to the lifestyle we can afford (which while not extravagant is adequate for us both) and it would mean that we would spend far less time together which, to me, is not only central to our relationship but to my life. I am quite prepared to help him if he wants to work and to set up his own business and I would encourage him in every way possible if that is what he decided to do, but under no circumstances could any financial "contribution" he would make, equal or not, ever make up for the time he would be away.


Far less importantly, and "to put it very harshly" .....

While your "new" boyfriend may have never tried to "steal" you, he certainly did enough to convince you of his own cultural and social superiority and your ex's (and his family's) shortcomings to ensure that whatever was left of your previous relationship ended. Irrespective of his government scholarship his family would need to be considerably better off than most Isaan families to be able to afford to cover the many expenses that his government scholarship does not, and while they may be "not exactly rich" they would certainly not be "poor". I think BL and colmx have been more than generous in their posts.

By the sound of it all those concerned seem to be getting everything they deserve. You do not deserve any relationship based on love and trust, as you took the first opportunity to read his personal mobile phone messages, which if you had "believed in him (a lot)" you would never have even thought about doing; ..... your ex appears to have never "really, genuinely" cared about you at all, and he evidently has a few "other men" available as replacements anyway; ... and your "new" boyfriend is now partnered with someone who considers distrust and bean counting a normal if not necessary part of a relationship and he presumably feels the same way. Good luck to you all.


... and why don't you try surviving "proudly" on 5,000 baht a month, without family support, next time you are living in Thailand? I can guarantee that your "new" boyfriend has never had to.

... and just what does "What's more, compared to my ex-bf, he's never asked me for money, ..." mean? Do you mean "compared to" or "unlike"? Either he has or he hasn't.

[a447]

Gone Fishing - with all due respect, I think you have missed the basic point I was trying to make. In those old-style relationships in the hetero world where the wife stayed at home and the husband worked, I doubt it was a case of no money, no honey.


Rubbish relationships between farangs and working / ex-working boys by all means

Of course there are maybe some genuine cases where a 20 y.o. Thai boy falls in love with a man old enough to be his grandfather and who would stand by granddad and have loving sex with him even if his source of income suddenly disappeared. The married couples you were talking about were probably around the same age and had lots in common. What on earth would a young guy be interested in associating with an old man???? MONEY! C'mon GF, it's not rocket science.

[bao-bao]

Everything we owned individually before we now own jointly, just as everything we did individually before we now do together.
Good heavens, Gone Fishing... I hope that doesn't include him having to sit there while you compose yet another of these seemingly endless responses! :8(

...Just razzing you, GF. If the relationship works for you two, that's all that matters.

[Art]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1-xvEOICRwA/SVkMmtEcLBI/AAAAAAAAA7E/EpuvkYcRrmA/s1600/Picture%2B6.png
http://understandingsociety.blogspot.com/

Prof Pasuk Phongpaichit did not leave room for doubt about our shamelessly unfair society in her recent keynote speech on "Towards a Fair Society" at the King Prachadhipok Institute conference. Among the glaring facts:

The top 20% own 69% of the country's assets while the bottom 20% own only 1%.
[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
42% of bank savings money comes from only 70,000 bank accounts holding more than 10 million baht. They make up only 0.09% of all bank accounts in the country. In other words, less than 1% of the people own nearly half of the country's savings.
[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
Among the farming families, nearly 20% of them are landless, or about 811,871 families, while 1-1.5 million farming families are tenants or struggling with insufficient land.[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
10% of land owners own more than 100 rai each, while the rest 90% own one rai or less.
[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
On income distribution, the top 20% enjoy more than 50% of the gross domestic product while the bottom 20% only 4%.
[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
The average income of the bottom 20% is the same as the poverty line at 1,443 baht per month.
[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
The gap between the richest and poorest family is 13 times, higher than all our neighbouring countries.[/*:m:19pa7yvm]
A fairer taxation system could reduce this economic disparity, she said. This can be done by expanding the base of direct taxpayers, introducing progressive land, inheritance, capital gains and interest taxes, for example. Unfortunately, the current taxation system worsens economic disparity by allowing easy tax evasion among the super rich while focusing on indirect taxation which treats the poor the same as the rich. Talk about justice!

State expenditure on free education, public health welfare, a comprehensive social security system and better agricultural policies have proven elsewhere to help bridge the gap, she said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/blogs/index.php/2009/11/30/thailand-s-shocking-inequity-statistics?blog=64
Pasuk Phongpaichit: http://pioneer.netserv.chula.ac.th/~ppasuk/index.htm

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Reclining_woman_and_lapdog.jpg
Lapdog. Isfahan, Iran (British Museum) Circa 1640

Lapdogs historically were kept in many societies around the world by individuals with leisure time, as docile companion animals with no working function. Genetic analysis reveals that lapdogs are among the earliest specific types of dogs to live with people. Today, most lapdog breeds fall into the Toy breed group. (Wikipedia)

PROJECT A: TEMPORARY SIAMESE LAPDOG


There are uncountable numbers of "boys" who have farang sitting at home why they have a good time partying and picking up guys for a "gig", and still manage to play the farang for a fool, such that he never finds out what's going on.
a) Farang happy (owns money and b). Fidelity checks are counterproductive!
b) Thai boyfriend very happy (owns a and c)
c) Third-party boyfriend(s) happy (own(s) b etc.)



Yes, they make you FEEL they love you, both because they are incredible actors (ever heard the phrase: "lie like Siam"??) and because you're their best chance at a secure future. They are prepared to give a lot for that.

Amazing! Amazing Siam!


They even give in to your stupid desire to make them "study" your native language or study at universities, although they tend to fail quite quickly.

Truly heroic, these illiterate drug addicts!



If you want a reliable and truthful bf who really loves you, you have to try to get people who at least have a minimum of education and have learned the importance of hard work in life.

Work: hard тЖТ Love: sweet?
Work: sweet тЖТ Love: hard?
Working class (always working), middle class, upper class? BA, MA, PhD?
Is a hard-working Thai escort with a PhD adequately qualified for the lapdog role abroad?



Recursion Gone Wrong

def SongNeverEnds():
print тАЬThis is 'The Song That Doesn't End'тАЭ
print тАЬYes it goes on, and on my friendтАЭ
print тАЬSome people, started singing itтАЭ
print тАЬnot knowing what it wasтАЭ
print тАЬAnd theyтАЩll just keep on singing itтАЭ
print тАЬforever just because...тАЭ
SongNeverEnds()
PROJECT B: THAI BOYFRIEND FOR ETERNAL LOVE

Fidelity check: Minutely, hourly, daily, yearly?

Eternal love 1,
Eternal love 2,
тАж,
Eternal love n-1,
Eternal love n.



┬╗Allow your heart to beat more slowly for a while and your mind to drift. Live in the present, and you may suddenly be struck by the realization of how lucky you are to be right here, right now.┬л

If Thais don't wait for their absent boyfriends, are they to blame? Yes, but only for the lack of communication. Not for their carnality. They are young, and their talent for living in the present is one of their assets. Finally we should not forget polyamory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyarmory). Learning can be painful, but Thais are worth the pain. Just read Dodger's mouthwatering story with the green eyes, from depression to paradise. Fictitious? Does it matter? My theory: The lacking condom is fictitious. To lend the story credibility. Not only the Tourism Authority of Thailand owes Dodger a debt of gratitude.

The good news: Even the unlikely is possible.

[Smiles]

Art, have you considered donating a very large sum ~ weekly ~ to the maintenance of this Board for your massive use of bandwidth.
Not criticizing the content of your posts mind you ~ though I've never actually read one all the way through and I suspect I'm not alone ~ but:

" ... A Server Hog is a user, program or system that places excessive load on a server such that the server performance as experienced by other clients is degraded, or such that the server itself is so heavily loaded that it fails to perform routine housekeeping for its own maintenance ... " << http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_hog >>
Hmmmm ... and double-hmmmm ... a very suspicious link at the bottom of that Wikipedia article: http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Server_hog

But carry on ...

[francois]

Art, have you considered donating a very large sum ~ weekly ~ to the maintenance of this Board for your massive use of bandwidth.
Not criticizing the content of your posts mind you ~ though I've never actually read one all the way through and I suspect I'm not alone ~
But carry on ...

You are not alone, Smiles! Even a troll is more entertaining than a hog.

[cdnmatt]

First, both partners should invest in the relationship, not only one taking care of the other; which in your case, as I understand, is definitely the case.

Maybe I'm misreading, but are you saying he doesn't invest in the relationship, or the other way around? If the former, then you're actually completely wrong. He invests loads into the relationship, and has been there for me many times now in ways that only my family and ex-husband have been. I guess if you view relationships purely in financial and tangible terms, then no, he doesn't invest much. In my opinion though, if you view relationships in that way, you don't particularly deserve a loving partner anyway.

Or what should I do? Demand he skrimps and saves all money, and never goes out to enjoy himself, so he can invest that whole $30 at the end of the month? Not to mention, if he has extra money, I expect it to goto mama and his younger siblings, not "us".


Second, it's a simple experience that I gained from this, obviously our plans for the future were not the same ... It might be a typical Thai thing, or it might just have been him, but I just realized that if he really wanted to spend the rest of his life with me, he should have held on to the hope that we would make it. Instead, he obviously chose to give up and get a new bf.

Honestly, it sounds as though you decided to do what's best for yourself, instead of what's best for "us", so of course the relationship was doomed to fail. After a while, my ex-husband decided to do the same as well, which was probably the biggest reason the relationship ended. I put up with it for a long time because I loved him, but I eventually told him to fuck off. Like you said, a relationship requires both people to invest, which includes sacrifices, and doing things you normally wouldn't do alone.

Sounds as though you basically just said, "well, I'm going to school in Europe, and I'm not overly certain what's going to happen, but hopefully we can make this work sometime in the future". Doesn't sound like there was any type of plan in place, and he basically just got left hanging, so of course that's not going to go over very well with him. How would you feel if someone did that to you?

You know, I hear the same type of stories from farangs lots, and it's no wonder these relationships don't work. Almost nobody will admit it, but the vast majority of farangs do view Issan boys as a lower class of humans, and because of that, think they can push the line a little more instead of treating them like an equal. Then when the relationship ends, the farang blames the Thai. As sad as it sounds, I think it's pretty rare to find a farang who treats his Thai BF the same as he would treat a BF in the west.


With my "new" bf (we've been together two years now, so it's not so new), although we will face the same problem soon, I feel we both have a more mature stance on what will realistically happen to our lives, and we will be apart, at least for a while, once he needs to go back to Thailand. Nevertheless, we'll both try to make it work and find a way how we can be together. If it doesn't work out in the end, that's just life.

Hope it works out well for you guys! I have my doubts though, when you say "If it doesn't work out in the end, that's just life".


In those old-style relationships in the hetero world where the wife stayed at home and the husband worked, I doubt it was a case of no money, no honey.

Sure it is, lots of times. And unless you come from a small town, and/or were childhood sweet hearts or something, I would say the majority of the time. I'm sure we all know a good number of divorced couples, who's marriage ended with financial problems being one of the main reasons.

[Diec]

It's amazing how you old fools can't find a boyfriend in your own country. Asians are everywhere and people can't hook up with them in their own home town why? Because they're not prostitutes, that's why. How comfortable would you be parading an asian boy in your hometown who looked to be your grandson? You wouldn't, that's why there is Thailand. God bless people who think they found love in a country that is thousands of miles away from their own, but again I ask, why can't you find true love where you are?

Honestly, it sounds as though you decided to do what's best for yourself, instead of what's best for "us", so of course the relationship was doomed to fail. After a while, my ex-husband decided to do the same as well, which was probably the biggest reason the relationship ended. I put up with it for a long time because I loved him, but I eventually told him to fuck off. Like you said, a relationship requires both people to invest, which includes sacrifices, and doing things you normally wouldn't do alone.

Sounds as though you basically just said, "well, I'm going to school in Europe, and I'm not overly certain what's going to happen, but hopefully we can make this work sometime in the future". Doesn't sound like there was any type of plan in place, and he basically just got left hanging, so of course that's not going to go over very well with him. How would you feel if someone did that to you?

You know, I hear the same type of stories from farangs lots, and it's no wonder these relationships don't work. Almost nobody will admit it, but the vast majority of farangs do view Issan boys as a lower class of humans, and because of that, think they can push the line a little more instead of treating them like an equal. Then when the relationship ends, the farang blames the Thai. As sad as it sounds, I think it's pretty rare to find a farang who treats his Thai BF the same as he would treat a BF in the west.

Hi Matt,

I never wished to imply that your bf wasn't investing in your relationship - quite to the opposite. I'm not a native speaker and sometimes it shows :)

Well, Gone Fishing's reply has showed me very clearly that it's not a good idea to share personal stories and/or experiences on this board, so I will draw the line here and just answer to the points that you raised, trying to clarify a few things.

Actually, the decision to go back to the West was nothing that I decided alone, nor was it an easy decision. I had left Europe in the middle of my university studies and if there was ever to be a time to finish those, it was that time. That is why we decided together that I would return.
The plan was to bring him here as soon as possible ( = as soon as I could afford it, being a student with no means whatsoever), but very surely within 1-2 years after my leaving Thailand.
Like I also pointed out before, I called him every day, I sent him money when he needed it, and I came back for a visit as soon as I could (first time about 5 months after I had left). I had never stopped believing in us, and I certainly didn't feel good about leaving him "hanging on" back in Thailand. But that was the only way at that time.

The part about me reading his mobile phone messages also didn't happen right away, so thank you very much for your comments, Gone Fishing, but it was not the first opportunity, more like the 20th, maybe. If you come back to visit the love of your life and you experience the fact that he stays out ("with friends") whole nights while you are sleeping, you start to wonder what he's up to. But hell, I would have to tell the whole story here and that would bore you all.

I thought I had taken care not to insult anyone here, especially not you, Matt, nor to critisize your decision or your choice to live with you bf in Isaan. On the contrary, I wish you all the luck and joy with it, and do hope sincerely that it works out for you guys.

Dear GoneFishing, I really wonder what entitles you to pass on judgement on people you don't even remotely know. But you being a lot older and wiser than me, there might be wisdom that I am not yet able to comprehend. By the way, I have lived on 2000 Baht/month, in Isaan, for 3 months. It was quite a happy time, although I must admit that the lifestyle in a remote village might be a bit different from that in Bangkok ;)

Take care.

[yedo111]

Of course there are maybe some genuine cases where a 20 y.o. Thai boy falls in love with a man old enough to be his grandfather and who would stand by granddad and have loving sex with him even if his source of income suddenly disappeared. The married couples you were talking about were probably around the same age and had lots in common. What on earth would a young guy be interested in associating with an old man???? MONEY! C'mon GF, it's not rocket science.

True, its not rocket science, its all about money if you try to have a relationship with someone that are familiar with the bars in Pattaya . You can call him a Boyfriend as much as you want, up to you but he will never be the true love you're looking for.

It's also about money if you travel up north and find a nice innocent boy from Korat or Khon Kaen . But , if you're lucky it will also be a relationship with love and respect , even if there is an age gap . Sure he wants you to take care of his family too but still money is not everything for them.
So I respect all of you that can settle down in a village or a city and learn the language , understand the thai culture and just be happy with your extended family .
If you cant handle it you can always let them down, go back to Pattaya and live your life as a butterfly , fuck all the moneyboys you want and just be a real asshole.

[Smiles]

" ... By the way, I have lived on 2000 Baht/month, in Isaan, for 3 months ... "
Although living in Isaan, in upcountry can definitely stretch one's income a lot further than the resort towns (much less Bangkok), I don't believe for a minute that the statement above is anything but a rather large exaggeration: that's 65.5 baht a day.
One could, I suppose, conceivably do that by buying one bottle of water, a nice som tam and one ear of corn on the cob for the one daily meal you could afford ... and then spending the rest of the day chuk wowing.

If you can break the costs by month down for us, it'd help the credibility ... though even then we'd have to actually believe the breakdown.

[Impulse]

I try to teach the bois how to floss their teeth,but they look at me like Im ting tong.

Dear GoneFishing, I really wonder what entitles you to pass on judgement on people you don't even remotely know.

I am not passing judgement on people. What I am passing judgement on is what they write here - nothing more, nothing less. If that offends you, then maybe you should not be so judgemental of others yourself - and by "others" I don't just mean "anyone here", whom you had "had taken care not to insult", but also those who are the main subject of your post who you apparently think it is perfectly acceptable to pass judgement on and denigrate with impunity.




Gone Fishing - with all due respect, I think you have missed the basic point I was trying to make.

No, I didn't miss it at all - my post was directed at Tiuri who was referring to relationships in general and his in particular, which had nothing to do with those between "a 20 y.o. Thai boy" and "a man old enough to be his grandfather". As far as those particular relationships are concerned, I would not disagree with you (though I would hardly describe your point as ground-breaking!).

..... and bao-bao, no, I admit there are some exceptions - I don't watch all the Thai soaps, we don't share the toilet, and he sleeps rather more than me (about 5 hours more!) so most of my posts here are made when he is asleep so I do not inflict this on him - that would probably be one way to end the relationship, though!





" ... By the way, I have lived on 2000 Baht/month, in Isaan, for 3 months ... "Although living in Isaan, in upcountry can definitely stretch one's income a lot further than the resort towns (much less Bangkok), I don't believe for a minute that the statement above is anything but a rather large exaggeration: that's 65.5 baht a day. .....

... and remember, Smiles, that included his generously supporting his b/f and his b/f's grasping mother!OK, forget the bottled water, but it is definitely one of the more outrageous claims I have seen here - I don't even dare think about soap and toothpaste, let alone the basic requirements for safe sex!



If you cant handle it you can always let them down, go back to Pattaya and live your life as a butterfly , fuck all the moneyboys you want and just be a real asshole.

Alternatively you can put yourself on a pedestal, post wild generalisations about farangs and Thais based on no more than where they live (which just happens to be where you were rejected by both), and convince yourself that getting away with paying less because there isn't an "off" fee involved (even though you are still paying for it and "he wants you to take care of his family too") somehow means that "it will also be a relationship with love and respect".

You know, I hear the same type of stories from farangs lots, and it's no wonder these relationships don't work.

Funnily enough, Matt, it only just struck me that although so many failed farang/Thai relationships seem to have striking similarities, the opposite seems true about successful farang/Thai relationships which all seem to be markedly different. Strange .....

Dear GoneFishing, I really wonder what entitles you to pass on judgement on people you don't even remotely know.

I am not passing judgement on people. What I am passing judgement on is what they write here - nothing more, nothing less. If that offends you, then maybe you should not be so judgemental of others yourself - and by "others" I don't just mean "anyone here", whom you had "had taken care not to insult", but also those who are the main subject of your post who you apparently think it is perfectly acceptable to pass judgement on and denigrate with impunity.

Point taken. But I hope you don't think that I look down on people because they are from Isaan (or from anywhere for that matter). I want to make that clear. The beginning of the thread was, after all, about bathing your bf in money (be it cash, buying him a house, or funding a business for him), and that, after all the things that I have experienced, and that friends have experienced, seemed rather foolish to me. Hence my sharp reaction.

Isn't this also quite a big generalization though:



You know, I hear the same type of stories from farangs lots, and it's no wonder these relationships don't work.

Funnily enough, Matt, it only just struck me that although so many failed farang/Thai relationships seem to have striking similarities, the opposite seems true about successful farang/Thai relationships which all seem to be markedly different. Strange .....


So it seems that generalizing is condemnable only if it doesn't serve one's purpose?

I guess your statement should cheer me up, because even though I had a "failed farang/Thai relationship" that lasted one and a half year till 2006, now have been enjoying a rather " successful farang/Thai relationship" for the last two-and-a-half years?

As I tried to point out in my last post, I am not passing judgement on you guys, especially not on Matt who has started this thread.

So I'd love to hear back from Matt in 2-3 years time, hearing what happened, and then I promise to be convinced ;)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard from Matt how he is going to finance their life in Khon Khaen - if he has won the lottery or has independent means and doesn't need to work anymore, that's a whole different situation compared to having to find a (teaching?) job in Isaan that will probably not pay very well. Then, taking care of the extended family might not be exactly feasible.

As one of your major points before was that I should have stayed in Thailand in order to not leave my bf alone "back there", I would be thrilled to hear about job opportunities in Thailand that guarantee you and your bf a secure life, even if you're not already wealthy and do not have an academic degree.

The living in Isaan on 2000B/month bit might have been misleading; I was in fact a volunteer at that time and didn't need to pay for accomodation. 2000B/month for food can go a long way in Isaan. What's more is that at that time, I didn't have a bf nor did I expect having one so soon. So there was no need for condoms and lube, and no demanding mother, sorry. I was a volunteer and had come to Thailand for "cultural experience" or whatever you want to call it. I lived in Thailand for nearly 2 years, and not everything happens at the same time, you know?

So would you object to the statement that - given you are working, and earning, let's say, 40K baht/month - your bf should still be working himself, be it only for 5K / month? Or do you think because you get the money, he should decide whether to work, study, or just watch TV? Just wondering.

I see your point that one shouldn't generalize. So let me express mea culpa again regarding my initial posts in this thread.

I can't help but think that "putting yourself on a pedestal" is not something completely alien to you, my friend. Anyway, let's have peace, if you will.

I'd love to hear "how it went" from Matt, in a year or two.

[cdnmatt]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard from Matt how he is going to finance their life in Khon Khaen

Well, selling yabba of course. :-) No, I've been a software entrepreneur for the past 9 years. Don't own a company anymore, but nonetheless, I'm good at what I do, and considering this is Issan, it will more than afford us a comfortable life. I can do it anywhere in the world, so after meeting Kim, I decided might as well take advantage of the freedom, instead of sitting around in Canada.


So would you object to the statement that - given you are working, and earning, let's say, 40K baht/month - your bf should still be working himself, be it only for 5K / month? Or do you think because you get the money, he should decide whether to work, study, or just watch TV? Just wondering.

Definitely. Actually, I don't care what he does, but I just hold him he has to do something with his time, and has to apply himself somewhere. What he does, is up to him. Whether that's working, becoming a student, volunteering at the orphanage, helping build houses for Habitat for Humanity, or whatever. I don't care, as long as it's something, and I could care less if it makes money. His 5000 baht/month wouldn't affect our lives in any shape or form.

[Beachlover]

But if you apply that attitude how is Kim going to be motivated enough to apply himself to his full potential and gain the satisfaction you get from doing that?

Few people have the drive to achieve something worthy inside... most need something external (e.g. need money) and very real to push them.

So it seems that generalizing is condemnable only if it doesn't serve one's purpose?
[X] Yes

No boy has any money. No boy runs. No boy runs fast. Every boy runs. Every boy runs fast. Only boys sleep.

[cdnmatt]

But if you apply that attitude how is Kim going to be motivated enough to apply himself to his full potential and gain the satisfaction you get from doing that?

True in a way, but who says that's the path to happiness and fulfillment? Personally, I love working, as long as it's my own ideas and operations. I love being able to take an idea, and turning it into a fruitful operation that generates a decent cash flow, and watching it evolve. However, that's not for everyone, and I'd say that's more true for Issan folk than Westerners.

For example, what's wrong with just simply owning a small convenience store, which does laundry on the side, and being happy with that? Take some of the convenience stores in Sydney. I'm sure it's the same as Canada, where you see a family owned store, and the same lady sitting behind the counter everyday. She just sits there all day, sells stuff, and watches the little TV in her corner, then probably spends the nights with her family. No ambition to "make something" of herself, or anything. Yet, she seems absolutely thrilled to be alive, always smiling and cheerful, and I'd say happier than most high-ranking businessmen and white-collar individuals I know, and have met.

So honestly, I don't really see the need to push anything on him. He's not stupid, and he knows what this world's all about, so I'd prefer just to let him make his own choices, and be there to support him. More than likely, they'll be pretty good choices, as I don't fall in love with idiots. I give him a nudge here and there to keep him on his feet, but will never actively push him towards something. That's up to him, not me. My job is to simply let him know what doors are now open to him. It's up to him whether or not he wants to walk through any of them.

[Diec]

What kind of nudges are you giving little Kim cdmatt? I hope your not making him think too much.

[Beachlover]

You're probably much wiser than me, Matt... very insightful point well put.

I admit I make this mistake often... I see and interpret others' situations from my own eyes with my own values and getting distressed when I see them make these irrational (in my eyes) decisions, when really... they might be thrilled with that convenience store or hairdresser lifestyle.

You're right... everyone has different aspirations, values and paths to fulfillment. Understanding this must go a long way to getting on well with relationships.

True in a way, but who says that's the path to happiness and fulfillment? ..... So honestly, I don't really see the need to push anything on him.

Matt, I agree completely with your sentiments but my reservations, and possibly others', are not about Kim "making something of himself", but about what you see him doing to occupy his time while you are busy working every day. As I have said before, the devil finds work for idle hands and for young, impressionable people with time and money to spare, and it is not him (or you!) selling yaa-baa that seems the most likely problem - after all, one of this forum's favourite posters did point out that "There is a 70% chance your Thai boyfriend is a yaa-baa addict".

I am not insinuating anything, just pointing out a possibility.

[Brisboy82]

Vietnamese lessons? What would be the point of that? I know that Vietnam is growing at an extremely rapid rate but Thailand is still a far more advanced country than Vietnam so why would Thais benefit from learning Vietnamese?

Vietnamese lessons: for the purpose of trade and cultural relations with Vietnam. Vietnam does a lot of (import) business with Thailand and there are quite a few Vietnamese students studying at Thai universities. So, in theory, a young Thai guy who could speak Vietnamese might be able to secure employment with a Thai exporter of goods to Vietnam.

In truth, I don't remember when or why I wrote "Vietnamese lessons". It would have made more sense if I had said "English lessons". Maybe the fact that I live in Vietnam led to the error.

[Manforallseasons]

Hi, I haven't followed your saga with Kim, the last I knew you were leaving him and had it with Issan. I think the older he gets and less attractive he becomes these things that annoy you and are most likely unchangeable as you are from 2 completely different worlds will take things to an inevitable end.

[cdnmatt]

Hi, I haven't followed your saga with Kim, the last I knew you were leaving him and had it with Issan. I think the older he gets and less attractive he becomes these things that annoy you and are most likely unchangeable as you are from 2 completely different worlds will take things to an inevitable end.

This thread is 3 years old, so I'm not sure what the idiot above was thinking upon bumping it.

But no, Kim and myself are done, and I'm leaving with the dogs to Chiang Mai very shortly. Has nothing to do with him getting older. I'm not exactly getting younger and cuter, so it'd be pretty stupid for me to hold getting older against someone. But no, nothing to do with physical appearance at all. He's a good guy, but just a lazy cunt, and I'm tired of putting up with it.

[Thai Dyed]

:laughing3:

OP are u totally effing stupid or what?
Your ludicrous suggestions like buying a house or funding a business for some issan boy whose cock or arse u happen to fancy for a while is just another example of how pathetically naive and gullible some of these 'more money than sense' farangs have when it comes to Thais.
Time and again the experienced ones on this web site try to warn against silly farangs throwing their wordly goods at these prostitutes but u have proven OP that sooner rather than later u will lose what if anything you have.
Mostly what is given to Thais goes to fuel drug or gambling habits or to help keep extended families in their lazy world of idleness and you OP are doing a shocking disservice by posting in this wholly irresponsible manner.

For fuck sake get real!

You were warned Matt. Your change in geography will do little to help despite the fact that Khor Tose is tempting you with fantasies of "showing you places he doesn't tell the tourists about." Yeah, sure... and no doubt you believe in the tooth fairy too.

[Impulse]

I admire Matt for trying. "I told you so" is really not needed. If his friend had been a tad more ambitous the relationship might have lasted for many years.

[cdnmatt]

You were warned Matt. Your change in geography will do little to help despite the fact that Khor Tose is tempting you with fantasies of "showing you places he doesn't tell the tourists about." Yeah, sure... and no doubt you believe in the tooth fairy too.

True, I was warned. But at least I tried, and I'm glad I did. I don't want to live a life where I'm too scared to take a risk, or venture into the unknown, because in my eyes, that's not a life worth living. Live and learn, and all that.

[joe552]

Well said, Matt. Good luck on the next stage of your journey.

[springco]

I don't want to live a life where I'm too scared to take a risk, or venture into the unknown, because in my eyes, that's not a life worth living. Live and learn, and all that.

But what you really believed Matt was that you were taking the SAFEST route, not the riskiest. This is an all too common delusion. And it has been demonstrated time and again that people rarely "live and learn". They repeat the same mistakes over and over throughout their lives. You'll do it again in a different town and call it a "new adventure". Only the scenery changes, but the plot remains the same.

See Matt - not only can SGF members give expert advice on every subject under the sun, they can also predict the future - why go anywhere else!

[Alex303]

Good luck Matt, fair play for at least trying !

[Koh Samui Luv]

they can also predict the future

@ scottish-guy, It hardly takes a prophet to recognize an old and tiresome story.

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Shakespeare, Macbeth Act 5, scene 5, 19тАУ28

[Shuee]

:laughing3:

OP are u totally effing stupid or what?
Your ludicrous suggestions like buying a house or funding a business for some issan boy whose cock or arse u happen to fancy for a while is just another example of how pathetically naive and gullible some of these 'more money than sense' farangs have when it comes to Thais.
Time and again the experienced ones on this web site try to warn against silly farangs throwing their wordly goods at these prostitutes but u have proven OP that sooner rather than later u will lose what if anything you have.
Mostly what is given to Thais goes to fuel drug or gambling habits or to help keep extended families in their lazy world of idleness and you OP are doing a shocking disservice by posting in this wholly irresponsible manner.

For fuck sake get real!

well said ZZ, you cant just through big money at this poor thai guy as it will just run him off the rails, possibly leading to drink/drugs & gambling whereafter you could have the mafia after you if hes runs up big debts, as was a recent case ending the life of a nice falang who jumped from the window of his centrecondo.
Look at my signature quote here at the bottom & have a think, give it time to really get to know him. also mentioned yes just increase your tips & see what hes actually really doing with your hard earned money

[latintopxxx]

...u only confuse the "boys"by treating them like equals or lovers...best policy is to fuck th├йm and leave them....you have the money so you rule...they are there to serve you...to make sure YOU have a good time....keep it simple...trust me...the "boys"like it that way...clearly defined roles....and I'm not talking about top or bottom roles...even a big bottom queen can be the "boss"....at the click of a finger the "boy" must get an erection to serve you or he gets replaced...

[joe552]

Have you people not realised that Matt started this thread almost 3 years ago so all your "good advice" is completely redundant? Save your pearls of wisdom for another time.

[lonelywombat]

Surely this is one thread that could be closed. It is no longer relevant.

[kittyboy]

I suspect this topic still has some life left.

If a guy wants to spend his money on a bar boy what is the problem?

I think of it as a hobby....spend some money and don't expect much in return except the psychic rewards....amusement..drama...dead grandmother stories....assorted sick relatives.

Sending money to the issan village because the boy is stranded and checking amd seeing it was picked up on an island in the south of Thailand.

That is real psychic value for the money spent....better than any telly drama.

[cdnmatt]

But what you really believed Matt was that you were taking the SAFEST route, not the riskiest.

Depends on the context you put it in. For example, the safest route would have been to sit in a cubicle in downtown Toronto all day, working my way up the corporate ladder, and taking annual vacations to all inclusive resorts in Mexico.


You'll do it again in a different town and call it a "new adventure". Only the scenery changes, but the plot remains the same.

You've never learned from your own mistakes? Trust me, I will never allow an uneducated Issan rice farmer to become an integral part of my life again. That ain't happening! :-) I'll drop off some food and supplies to orphanages every month or two, and that'll be good enough for me helping the less fortunate.

Surely this is one thread that could be closed. It is no longer relevant.where will people go to gloat then? I have read quite a lot of cdnmatts posts about how wonderful life is in King Kong or wherever living with a bunch of ignorant villagers and there bar boy family member and generally sticking it up those older posters here who prefer Pattaya or Bankok and being snooty about people who dont learn the lingo so they can have deep and meaningful conversations with afoursaid villagers.

[Thai Dyed]

I have read quite a lot of cdnmatts posts about how wonderful life is in King Kong or wherever living with a bunch of ignorant villagers and there bar boy family member and generally sticking it up those older posters here who prefer Pattaya or Bankok and being snooty about people who dont learn the lingo so they can have deep and meaningful conversations with afoursaid villagers.

Is this what is known as Karma BrisbaneGuy?
Even though this was so predictable, it is still fun to follow the soap opera adventures of Matt in "King Kong" and beyond. Now the fretting about the move to a new location with Mother-Hen KhorTose lending advice on all the "secrets" of Chiang Mai. And I am sure there will be an episode on the dogs which still weigh heavily in Matt's thoughts. There is at least one dog expert in Chiang Mai who makes a profession of acting as Father Confessor to the hopelessly lovelorn.

Is this what is known as Karma BrisbaneGuy?I only know about the Karma Sootra mate but it looks as if the Thais have completely fucked cdnmatt.

[Khor tose]

You were warned Matt. Your change in geography will do little to help despite the fact that Khor Tose is tempting you with fantasies of "showing you places he doesn't tell the tourists about." Yeah, sure... and no doubt you believe in the tooth fairy too.

Yeah Matt, forget about the tooth fairy. Boy Genius or Cha Na or whatever he wants to be tomorrow has always had all the answers. You can tell by what a sweet charming personality he has to present to the world. Matt you are trying to find the right road, and many of us here hope you find it and wish you the best of luck. Don't let boy-genius turn you into the bitter old queen like she is. We all make mistakes and some of us do learn and move on. You will find a good group of people here in Chiang Mai none of whom have been some Thai's whore and now are all too bitter about life.

By the way, Scotty i owe you a public apology, you were not Hilda, I am now pretty sure I know who she was and it was not you, and for suggesting that I am sorry.

Sorry to briefly drag this off-topic, but in direct response to the post above:

That's cool KT - I was never "Hilda".

I do not post on any other board under any other name - so my musings are (thankfully?) easy to avoid.

Anyhoo, I see the latest suggestion is that I am in cahoots with Smiles and jinks - again, totally untrue - I don't even know where Cahoots is! :occasion9:

Hylda Baker was a bit of a comedy heroine of mine - pity "Hilda" can't spell the name correctly, lol
If you DO know who "Hilda" is, feel free to tip me off.

[Shuee]

who cares how long ago this was posted, its obviously still relevant as people are replying, nothing changed the boys are still boys & money is still money in my eyes! the only thing thats really changed is that we get a lower exchange rate than when this was originally posted so we get a worse deal

[Mancs]

I agree that this is still interesting. I haven't got past the mobile phone stage with the boys and not sure that I want to. One of them suggested I send him to college and then buy him a shop but I said no to that. I am trying to be in the tip them well and leave them camp. But I do enjoy their company so that is hard. I was amazed when one of them spent his departure present on a ring. He needed lots of other things but the lure of jewellery seems strong. I gather that, in Asia, jewellery is like a deposit account in farangland. One massage boy was very proud that he had saved up to buy a cow, which lived with his family. So maybe the answer to the best thing we can do is buy them a cow?

...he had saved up to buy a cow, which lived with his family...

In many instances I've known it to work the other way round - where an old cow takes a boy in to live with her.


:occasion9:

[francois]

So maybe the answer to the best thing we can do is buy them a cow?

Excellent suggestion; easier to milk a cow than a farang, the cow has 4 teats.

[peeseua]

So maybe the answer to the best thing we can do is buy them a cow?

Excellent suggestion; easier to milk a cow than a farang, the cow has 4 teats.

And is capable of dying many times so that it can be revivified by large and frequent transfusions of farang cash...

[Mancs]

In 2009 cows could be bought from 3000 bt for a calf to around 10,000 for a prime animal. Even if they've gone up a bit those prices sound very reasonable.

Last time I was in Bangkok I saw a few Thai heifers pushing street vendor carts around.

[gearguy]

1. Make sure they are well-educated on safe sex
2. Take them and make sure they get vaccinated for Hep A, Hep B, Typhoid, etc

[joe552]

gearguy, are you suggesting that as a customer at a beer bar or go go bar it's my responsibility to have the boy vaccinated before I off him? seems a bit odd to me, and not something I'd plan to do on my holidays.

[Thai Dyed]

gearguy, are you suggesting that as a customer at a beer bar or go go bar it's my responsibility to have the boy vaccinated before I off him? seems a bit odd to me, and not something I'd plan to do on my holidays.

Joe, the title of this thread is "Best thing you can do for a Issan boy?". gearguy's comment is 100% ON-TOPIC.

[Khor tose]

gearguy, are you suggesting that as a customer at a beer bar or go go bar it's my responsibility to have the boy vaccinated before I off him? seems a bit odd to me, and not something I'd plan to do on my holidays.

Joe, the title of this thread is "Best thing you can do for a Issan boy?". gearguy's comment is 100% ON-TOPIC.

I agree it truly is 100% on topic. However, HepB vaccination takes three shots and seven months to get all three shots. What is truly unfortunate is many Issan boys who have HepB have received it vertically from their mothers and it is too late for the vaccination. If you are a farang, you are playing with fire if you ]do not get your HepB shots before you arrive in country. HepB is far easier to get then HIV and you should definitely get vaccinated for it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepatitis_B_vaccine

[joe552]

I didn't say the post was off topic - only that I thought it odd that gearguy seemed to be suggesting that as a customer I should ensure a boy has been vaccinated before I off him.

[Neal]

If I may stick my big toe in here for a moment and then quickly take it out?

Joe, Gearguy did not say that you as a customer should take the boy to get a Hep A,B, Typhoid vaccine. The title is The Best thing You can Do For An Isaan Boy. In my opinion that just means what one person could do for the good of another person, a boy. Has no meaning of customer for a one night or week off boy. If someone wanted to do something nice for an Isaan boy.

[joe552]

thanks Neal for clarifying.

[Alex303]

A thank you to the member who posted this...it recently prompted me to quizz my BF about this and turns out he has not been vaccinated, something that i'm getting sorted very shortly!


2. Take them and make sure they get vaccinated for Hep A, Hep B, Typhoid, etc

[nanette]

:thk: And perhaps some potent ointment for anal warts too?

[Alex303]

:scratch: thankfully not an issue with my BF !


:thk: And perhaps some potent ointment for anal warts too?

[francois]

A thank you to the member who posted this...it recently prompted me to quizz my BF about this and turns out he has not been vaccinated, something that i'm getting sorted very shortly!

Best to go to a reputable clinic/doctor/hospital and have him tested to see if already exposed to Hep B. If so, further vaccination is not necessary as he will have immunity.
This is cheaper than the 3 shots for Hep B over a period of months. Suggest a hospital.

[Dodger]

Best thing you can do for an Isaan boy?

The best thing that a farang can do for an isaan boy is to start by showing him how grateful he is that the boy has entered his existence, because it was him, and others like him, who changed his life from being mundane...unfulfilled...and lifeless...to a life where his dreams have been allowed to come alive...a gift not many receive in their lifetimes.

If you've chosen the path, and I don't mean a path with avoids emotional connections and relationships with Thai boys, but the path which led you to a life where you are either living in or totally consumed with Thailand then never lose sight of the fact that they (the boys) are the components of your dreams which guided you here to begin with, unless in fact you are one of those rare gay farang who were drawn here being consumed with the golden temples and indian charms. Never take them for granted - because there're a dozen more like you right around the corner. Turn your back on them completely and they'll disappear from your dreams as fast as they entered. They can't be held responsible for our dreams/compulsions/addictions or the fact that we came here to begin with and they owe no explanation to any of us for anything.

It's not about what the Isaan boy needs from YOU that really matters...it's about your understanding and acceptance of those needs..

Those who believe that all the Isaan boys come from worthless families who do nothing more than sit around all day drinking rot-gut whiskey have either never lived in Isaan or they are simply prejudice against people of lower social standings. The majority of farmers in Isaan spend 8-10 back-breaking hours a day in their fields - a job that not one loose-lipped farang could stand up to. They drink at night as a means of erasing the thoughts they have about having to do it again the next day - all the time knowing that life will never get an easier for them. The typical Isaan boy comes from a life that many of you think you understand - but you haven't the foggiest clue.

If you hold him accountable for every satang you place in his hands then be prepared to be disappointed. If you're not willing to accept the fact that your personal needs for fulfillment dwarf his needs and the needs of his family then your ignorance and self-centeredness will once again result in disappointment. Show him that you are ignorant or insensative to the reality of his life and the life of his family back in Isaan and you'll never win his heart - just his body - until he finds another ignorant and insensitive farang who's willing to pay more. ..thus the term "ATM" (Another Time to Move). Ironically, this is the path that so many farang end up taking, e.g., just buy them for sex, never listen to any lies about their families needing money, don't ever attempt to have a meaningful relationship with one of them because I couldn't do it so it must be impossible...and so on.

Many of you know that I was married to a boy from Isaan...he became addicted to drugs...was imprisoned...and died at age 26. During the 8 years we were together the money that he received from me went to buy a piece of farm land for his family...then a tractor...then a house large enough for his entire family to live. His mother, father, 2 of his mothers sisters, one grandfather and two young boys named Pan and Ape now work the farm and go to sleep at night in a nice home. His (my late bf's) contribution to his family was unquestionably enormous and I'm quite sure that Pan and Ape will be taking care of the place when they grow up and have families of their own.

I guess when I hear all these stories about the boys from Isaan just squandering all the money you give them without any care for the future I should consider myself fortunate. What did I give my boy from Isaan when he was alive?...My unconditional love and the acknowledgement that the needs of his family would always be a top priority.

[Alex303]

Thanks francois but i'm already thinking along those lines as he goes to Uni in Udon and there's several good private Hospitals there so i've asked him last week to speak to 2 of them and get back to me asap.


Best to go to a reputable clinic/doctor/hospital and have him tested to see if already exposed to Hep B. If so, further vaccination is not necessary as he will have immunity.
This is cheaper than the 3 shots for Hep B over a period of months. Suggest a hospital.

Maybe spell Isaan correctly so he understands what you mean when you say the word?

[joe552]

Is there a "correct" way to spell Issan in English? and even if there is, how does that help a Thai guy know what you're talking about? surely for him it would be your pronunciation?

[Alex303]

Resurrecting an old thread....

I would like to add getting him vaccinated for 'Diphtheria' to this list...my BF was struck down by this a few weeks ago and it was very nasty...he was unconscious for several days at one point and we were lucky to get him into a good private hospital quickly.

Irony is I did get him vaccinated for Hep A, Hep B & Typhoid last year.


2. Take them and make sure they get vaccinated for Hep A, Hep B, Typhoid, etc

[francois]

Good idea Alex; will put that on my to-do list for the bf. I doubt that he has gotten that vaccine along with the usual mix of tetanus and pertussis which are combined in one shot.

[Alex303]

no problem Francois....hmmm yes Tetanus that's another one to definitely add to the list also. Do you mind me asking...do you usually get your BF's inoculations carried out at a Government or Private hospital ?

[francois]

Private hospital; Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital.

[Sooty]

Interesting that this topic has resurfaced given that cdnmatt's latest musings suggest that the best thing you can do for yourself if involved with an Esarn boy is say good-bye.

[Alex303]

Yes me too Private Hospital in Udon


Private hospital; Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital.

[Alex303]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say...


Interesting that this topic has resurfaced given that cdnmatt's latest musings suggest that the best thing you can do for yourself if involved with an Esarn boy is say good-bye.

[whitemouse]

I will tell you what the best thing is to give an Issan boy. First, it is not to shower them with money or to fund a business for them. They will not ever understand the value of the money, or how hard we as gay farang had to work for that money. Education is also not the way to go. Most of these boys only think in the "now" and do not really plan for their future, especially stupid farm boys from the north. Most of these farm boys do not have any direct contact with successful people and therefore do not understand the value of an education. After all, they make a pretty handsome profit selling themselves on the street.

What these lovely young lads need is a huge dose of LOVE. They don't want our stinking money, they simply want our love. When you give love to these boys, they become richer than they ever thought they could be in their wildest dreams. Love is the universal language, and once these boys know that they have your love, your trust, your devotion, they will do almost anything to make you happy. Yes, there is almost a 50 year difference between me and my future husband, but the love he has for me, and the love I have for him carries us to a realm that many on this board have never experienced.

It's always easy to give money, but when you give your love, it needs to be earned, and once you give your love unconditionally, everything else will fall into place.

Interesting thread, but it's still unclear what is the best thing a foreigner can do for Isaan guy.

[latintopxxx]

...just pay him what u promised......simple really

[whitemouse]

...just pay him what u promised......simple really

Agreed! Pay what you promised, and if you wish to be extra nice, pay a bit more than what was agreed.
Also, before going to hotel witj him stop at 711 and buy him cigarettes and few bottles of Chang. Ask him if he's hungry, stop at roadside stall and eat together.

[latintopxxx]

...nah I prefer they eat afterwards...empty stomach keeps them keen...remonds them what they are working for...a full stomach makes them lazy and lethargic...also I love face fucking them...bit of deep throat...make their eyes water as i use the mouth/throat...not all can control the gag reflex....wouldnt want freshly eaten street food all over the place...gotta plan ahead.

[whitemouse]

Just as you were starting to resemble a normal human being, you're back to throat fucking and gag reflex, Latin!

[christianpfc]

What these lovely young lads need is a huge dose of LOVE. They don't want our stinking money, they simply want our love. When you give love to these boys, they become richer than they ever thought they could be in their wildest dreams. Love is the universal language, and once these boys know that they have your love, your trust, your devotion, they will do almost anything to make you happy. Yes, there is almost a 50 year difference between me and my future husband, but the love he has for me, and the love I have for him carries us to a realm that many on this board have never experienced.
I tried many times. All the love and commitment I give go out of the window, they just want money. Detailed cases study here: http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/2017/05/dating-thai-boys-52-bfc4in2017-ton.html

What I found that most Thai boys have problems with is managing money; an area where I excel. Nowadays when Thai friends ask me to borrow money I refuse, and ask them to write down all their expenses over the month so I can see where the money goes and offer advice. Or even take their money and then allocate them a daily allowance, there would even be money left at the end of the month! But none of them has taken me up on that offer. After a lot of prompting I got one doctored list of monthly expenses:
http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/2017/03/a-thai-friends-expenses.html

[a447]

Christian, you seem to forget that you are dealing with young people. When you were their age, didn't you just want to go out and have fun?

(Mmmm....maybe not.)

I think most young guys do. And the last thing they want to do is put money aside for later. Young people tend to live in the here and now.

Perhaps you are expecting too much of them.

[latintopxxx]

a447...have u ever been to Germany?? Not to totally stereotype but the people are scarily organized and punctual...young and old...thats why even though they got flattened during ww2 ...a huge chunk of their males killed...60 years later they rule again.

whitemouse...so u find face fucking/deep throating offensive...oh dear...such a sensitive disposition...guess your knitting circle would be aghast...would love to know what u consider vanilla normal gay sex...and what u would classify as " out there"