Soi Twilight Wednesday night

By the time I arrived at Soi Twilight on Wednesday evening (just after 11pm) attendance was very thin - almost no customers in either of the bars I visited (Fresh Beach Boys, X Boys). Plenty of boys at FBB, very few boys at X boys - so few in fact that they only allowed 8 boys on the stage at any one time. Apparently there had been no show at FBB due to a lack of customers. I didn't enquire at X Boys.

I mean, isn't it OBVIOUS? Those places are just a complete rip off, IMHO.

They charge too much for a drink; they bug the shit out you when you're in there, touting till kingdom come; the boys are more often than not listless and make you feel conspicuous OR look like they don't give a shit; the offing fees are ridiculous just to get your boy out the door, where you have NO idea if he's lied all along about delivering on what he's said he will do; the worst turnoff for me (if not booking overnight) is that the second they are in your room they are clock watching, gauging how fast they can get back to their friends and for possibly another off; and if you DO keep them overnight they are experts at being 'tired'; and no matter what they want their tip, no matter how little or much they were satisfying to you.

It's a one night stand for almost every farang. You regulars get more satisfaction because they know their rep will suffer if they don't do a nice job for you. The occasional tourist that drops into Bangkok- as I did until recently- gets the short shrift from these guys that look at them as easy marks. Of course, if you focus on ladyboys it might be a bit more value for the money but otherwise you get these bi/straight guys who just don't make you feel like you got your money's worth.

I would NEVER waste my time in BKK go go bars. Well worth it to come down to Pattaya instead, where the problems might still be there, but you don't have to blow a $100 to find out!

Thanks for that rant, jack - most entertaining. I imagine anyone who reads what you have written about how Pattaya is different and who then reads the thread about bad service at Wild West Boys (http://www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-thailand/bad-service-wild-west-boys-pattaya-t18712.html) will end up totally confused.

[TrongpaiExpat]

It's a one night stand for almost every farang. You regulars get more satisfaction because they know their rep will suffer if they don't do a nice job for you. The occasional tourist that drops into Bangkok- as I did until recently- gets the short shrift from these guys that look at them as easy marks.!

Not sure there is such a thing as a Bangkok resident that regularly off's boys from the soi Twilight bars. There are other options.

Also not sure that resident automatically get better service. They might be wiser, speak Thai and know there way around and that might lead to better service.

Thanks for that rant, jack - most entertaining. I imagine anyone who reads what you have written about how Pattaya is different and who then reads the thread about bad service at Wild West Boys will end up totally confused.

Of course you're right about things like WWB's. Actually, I didn't even validate Pattaya at all. I was careful to say that you'll find the same things but that I don't have to drop a hundred bucks to find it. Drink prices, offing fees and tips are generally lower in Pattaya. It's not much, but I get that big city attitude up there and it rankles me.

One thing I left out is that while (my perception is) Bangkok has a decidedly more calculating edge to the guys (imagined or not), not unlike a 'hey, we're the BIG LEAGUES here!' mentality, Pattaya just feels more unpretentious and eager to please, not so stuck up. The same is true on the girl side too...and the tout side as well. Just seems like a more hard core, fleece-the-tourist vibe. You should do some googling on the second story bar/ping pong show horror stories the poor saps that get roped into in BKK. Thank god we don't have much of that down here.

But that's just me. To each his own. I imagine if you've got a pile of cash and are dropping into BKK for a much-anticipated holiday the difference in cost is just part of the deal.

It's not much, but I get that big city attitude up there.No! A big city attitude in Thailand's biggest city!? You amaze me. However I'll be able to judge for myself as I am soon to become a resident of Pattaya.

No! A big city attitude in Thailand's biggest city!? You amaze me. However I'll be able to judge for myself as I am soon to become a resident of Pattaya.

HA! God, I never thought about how stupid that would look in print. Right again.

[firecat69]

As someone who used to spend 90% of his time in Pattaya and now spends 90% of his time in Bangkok, I feel qualified to make some comments. In the end it all comes down to the boys you encounter. There is definitely a difference in boys between the two places.

Smaller and younger boys are not on offer on Soi Twilight except for Classic Bar. As far as service I find the Bangkok boys superior to Pattaya as long as you don't go to Jupiter. Are there generally more straight boys (whatever that means in Thailand) in Bangkok then Pattaya. Probably. I for one don't care if the boy is straight or gay as long as he is pleasant and does what I want to do with a smile..

I am in complete agreement that the Bars on Soi Twilight are outrageous in their drink prices. Off fees 400 instead of 300 in Pattaya. Who cares. Boys in Bangkok generally expect 500 more for short time and overnights then boys in Pattaya are happy with. This is not hard and fast but generally the way it is. I find it much easier to get telephone numbers of boys from Bangkok bars and eliminate all the bar expenses. Boys in bangkok are evidently able to take more days off then the boys in Pattaya . Pattaya boys rarely get a day off and if sick get docked. Yes you can arrange afternoon trysts but at night you are going to have to go to the Bar in most cases.

One thing about Bangkok boys.I have never had to put up with are calls or emails begging for money because of the dead buffalo etc. This is a regular occurrence in Pattaya. I have never had a Bangkok boy ask for anything other then his expected Tip.

So as usual it comes down to ones personal experiences. Its just not fair to compare the two until you have enough varied experiences in both cities.

I still visit Pattaya but don't miss the lying mamasans and lack of id's etc. Maybe I am lucky but I have never had a mamasan in Bangok lie to me. Sometimes they say not sure and many times have said not what you want. The only bar I could count on that honesty in Pattaya is Funnyboys and Mama rose.

[latintopxxx]

Sometimes i think the girls on this board forget what life away from paradise is like....where else in the worls can you have a drink and a show for 5 euro....bht250/beer is nada when you factor in the tranny, drag, big cock, fuck...whatever shows....if u don't like it then don't go....plenty of other places to pick up boys.
On that subject I have offed quite a few boys out of soi twilight and have a pretty good time....cheaper stuff is available close by....and for heavens sake there are very few places in the world where for under 1000bht u can bounce a muscle god off your cock all night...

As someone who used to spend 90% of his time in Pattaya and now spends 90% of his time in Bangkok, I feel qualified to make some comments. In the end it all comes down to the boys you encounter. There is definitely a difference in boys between the two places.

I have VERY limited experience with BKK bars because the 'learning curve' is expensive and I was introduced to Pattaya first. My post was purely written from the vantage point of someone that might be dropping in for a few days, in which case they would be at the mercy of the experienced players they offed, who could pick up on the angles. Having said that, this blog is clearly aimed at the experienced crowd so maybe I'm out of line playing a Gomer Pyle- sorry for that. I'm sure if you off a lot in BKK and in your first ten offs you figure out the game you probably have four or five outstanding gigs. If you come to town for a few days once a year, it probably is a bit more challenging.

On massages, though, I can categorically state that all Pattaya shops are total shit. Ugly, big boys or total fem boys. Outrageous prices. Inconsistent delivery- there are maybe 5 or 6 real gay massage places in town. In BKK, though, there is ample competition and a great selection. I've never been disappointed there. Bangkok Massage on Soi Twilight is an oasis of cute young guys who will NOT let you go home unsatisfied...so maybe it's the dedication of the proprietor that matters most. I don't know...it's weird.

One clear difference between BKK and Pattaya is that there is a palpable professionalism evident in BKK operators vs a sort of amateurism in Pattaya. I equate that amateurism as being more innocent and real, along with being cheaper. So maybe I'm prejudiced on that front.

I equate that amateurism as being more innocent and real, along with being cheaper.

They definitely have a different vibe. I wish Babylon was in Pattaya, otherwise I wouldn't have a reason to go back to bkk. I want to check out Sansuk on my next visit.

I wish Babylon was in Pattaya, otherwise I wouldn't have a reason to go back to bkk.That's completely the point. Pattaya lacks the scale to support something like a Babylon. If you want the opportunities a big city presents ... go to a big city.

They definitely have a different vibe. I wish Babylon was in Pattaya, otherwise I wouldn't have a reason to go back to bkk. I want to check out Sansuk on my next visit.

Mmm...I think you'll like it, Mlomker!

Not nearly as modern and swank, and a fraction of the size, but it has its own little charm. And you can stay right there as well, smack dab in the middle between Jomtien and Pattayaland. I confess I'm not a sauna guy but I've been to both and the impressions I have would be that after being in 'Manhattan' going to 'Cincinnati' might be a bit of a letdown...but then there's that amateurish charm I love so much! And CHEAPER, too!

[thrillbill]

Sometimes i think the girls on this board forget what life away from paradise is like....where else in the worls can you have a drink and a show for 5 euro....bht250/beer is nada when you factor in the tranny, drag, big cock, fuck...whatever shows....if u don't like it then don't go....plenty of other places to pick up boys.
On that subject I have offed quite a few boys out of soi twilight and have a pretty good time....cheaper stuff is available close by....and for heavens sake there are very few places in the world where for under 1000bht u can bounce a muscle god off your cock all night...

God, here we go again comparing Thailand prices to a Western country. Those who defend being ripped off in Thailand (paying high prices for "average" service of a taxi ride all the way down to offing a guy) most likely come here for a holiday. Thus, it doesn't matter what they pay. Yet, I question if these defenders of paying more with less bang for your buck would "over pay" for various services in their own country? [Example" I won't blink an eye when I am on holiday and pay $6.00 from my gin and tonic at some 5 star resort; yet will when back in Thailand.]

God, here we go again comparing Thailand prices to a Western country. Those who defend being ripped off in Thailand (paying high prices for "average" service of a taxi ride all the way down to offing a guy) most likely come here for a holiday. Thus, it doesn't matter what they pay. Yet, I question if these defenders of paying more with less bang for your buck would "over pay" for various services in their own country? [Example" I won't blink an eye when I am on holiday and pay $6.00 from my gin and tonic at some 5 star resort; yet will when back in Thailand.]

Good point. Also, when you consider that to the average Thai, who in the average job would be lucky to make 400-600 baht a day, making 1500 to 2000 for a gig is really good money. Granted they may have many days without any chances, but it's still a lot of cash for these young guys.

I see the go go bar scene as being sort of a catch 22: If the proprietors insured a bit of quality control they would get more money from off's and more customers with which to spread the overhead on. When they stock their places with listless and unattractive guys who do not have the good manners needed to insure that the farang's investment was well rewarded in the offing, their customer base dwindles...and then they must raise drink prices to make up the difference...which make farangs even less likely to come...which causes the boys to feel like the place is a dead end so the good ones move on. The pool of guys gets even worse, farangs come even less, necessitating the raising of prices.

Conversely, if a bar had a reasonable drink menu, took care to have a good selection of boys with good attitudes they'd pack the place and there would be more offs and more profits from more drinks. Krazy Dragon seems to understand this and if I enjoyed the tabletop schtick I'd probably be a regular (I don't because I don't like not being a center of attention). I know everyone would say 'DUH!!', but what happens is that one bar usually breaks a price ceiling and all the others, shitty or not, follow suit.I think this is a prime reason for the deterioration of the whole go go bar scene. Unjustified price increases across the board eliminate ANY options for discriminating farangs, and they give up entirely on the scene and move on to other avenues...this is HUGELY assisted by the Web and sites like GayRomeo. It's akin to the collapse of the video booth shops in the US when online porn got going- who needs the hassles and rip offs?

Here's an idea for club owners: Why don't you have a frequent customer program with a card of sort? Regulars that are not just holiday-makers could pull out a card and get a drink for around what the beer bars charge or a little more. The first place that does that will see a big increase from the regular crowd I would think.

[Smiles]

" ... And you can stay right there as well, smack dab in the middle between Jomtien and Pattayaland ... "
Lucky us. Last time I looked the area between Jomtien and Pattaya was a dusty wasteland, somewhat akin to the industrial outskirts of Beijing just before the Gobi takes over the scenery.
Perhaps it's better now ... though this being Thailand, road demolition (oops, I mean 'construction') sites remain about the same for 2 or 3 years at a time.

most likely come here for a holiday. Thus, it doesn't matter what they pay.

For some reason the (retired) people that live in Thailand are convinced that they own SGT and everything has to be posted from their perspective. Why is that, exactly?

Expats that are there on a nice package think the place is an inexpensive paradise as well. Thaivisa is pretty much over-run with that crowd.

[TrongpaiExpat]

Conversely, if a bar had a reasonable drink menu, .................

Here's an idea for club owners: Why don't you have a frequent customer program with a card of sort? Regulars that are not just holiday-makers could pull out a card and get a drink for around what the beer bars charge or a little more. The first place that does that will see a big increase from the regular crowd I would think.

Conversely the Nana lady bars change 120 now for beer or soft drinks but some have off fees set at 1000B. Some have membership cards too. Your better off with the lady massage venues that range from 500-600 for the massage and 500 to 1,500 for the extra service. Soapy lady massage venues for the most part have eliminated the tip for extra service and have set prices, 1,500 to 5000B, all inclusive.

Actually, that an excellent idea. I don't know why the Soi Twilight bars don't try to attract more of the residents. Their bread and butter has always been tourists and weekend in town for business visitors but they seem to be drying up.

Bars like Balcony and Telephone have discount member cards. Silom Soi 4 is doing well and it's an interesting contrast to first pay a visit over at Soi Twilight and then move over to soi 4.

Lucky us. Last time I looked the area between Jomtien and Pattaya was a dusty wasteland, somewhat akin to the industrial outskirts of Beijing just before the Gobi takes over the scenery.
Perhaps it's better now ... though this being Thailand, road demolition (oops, I mean 'construction') sites remain about the same for 2 or 3 years at a time.

It's STILL getting there, but the road is paved between the third road and the turn off for the waterpark area...dusty as heck down to Bruno's.

But somethings got into them this last few weeks and they are frantically trying to get the road paved at least between Sanuk and VT5. Wonder what the urgency is about??? oh yeah, high season is almost here.

[Beachlover]

Has anyone seen the Michael Jackson Black or White performance at Dream Boys (I think that's the name of the bar)?... I thought it was pretty good. Very clever.

[markie1]

Having just had a cpouple nights in Soi Twilight,Things do not really change ,Boys outside the bars are has pushy has ever,You pay High drink prices to watch a show that does not really change,surely these prices at 220 to 250 baht include show fees,but has soon has your seated they are there ,X bar 7 man showing Cock then begging customers for money!! 5 minuits later fuck show again begging for money , surely these high price drink bars should cover the show fees,i think customers just get sick of it ,and by the look of many customers i could see they were not impressed, no surprice the bars are going down hill.
Why dont the girlie bars that do ping pong shows charge this kind of money for drinks , they think the gays are all rich and suckers.

[Brad the Impala]

they think the gays are all rich and suckers.

Certainly most of them are suckers.

Certainly most of them are suckers.

Unless my TMJ is acting up...

Why dont the girlie bars that do ping pong shows charge this kind of money for drinks , they think the gays are all rich and suckers.

You should read the horror stories on the straight boards about those ping pong shows. They take place on the second floors and the touts promise a cheap beer and then when you get up there you're lucky to get out of there with under a 2000 baht hit or your life.

It's the biggest scandal in Patpong according to the tourist police. Fascinating reading, btw.

http://www.bangkokscams.com/scams-in-ba ... -scam.html (http://www.bangkokscams.com/scams-in-bangkok/patpong-sex-show-scam.html)

For some reason the (retired) people that live in Thailand are convinced that they own SGT and everything has to be posted from their perspective. Why is that, exactly?It must be absolutely devastating for you to find out that the grown-ups are in charge!

[TrongpaiExpat]

Made it over to Soi Twilight last night (Sat, Dec 5) Surprised to find all the bars open. I was told that sex shows are on. Only went into Fresh Beach Boys. Has some customers but not a full house. New shows, new routines and some new boys. Drinks were 230B. No khatooy acts, some very good looking and accomplished dancing and a lot of sex routines. One routine was a little strange, some sort of voodoo thing, could not quite figure out what it was about but the boys had nice erections so I did not care.

Do do that voodoo
that you do so well.
For you do something to me
that nobody else could do!

[TrongpaiExpat]

Out again tonight (Sunday, Dec.6) soi Twilight. Only went in Dream Boys, de vest go-go bar in da vorld . The best thing I can say about the BBB group bars is there's no smoking. Show started at 10:30. The show had 8 routines, dancing, sex shows and a few things that are hard to describe and harder to understand. Lots of big cocks on display and in one of the fuck shows there was a double person inserting--I think they were going for a triple but one of the bottoms dropped out.

The bar was about 90% full of customers. Drinks at 280, then 260 for a 'boy drink' some sort of reduced price structure for seconds and after midnight more discounts. Lots of boys and many new ones. If you looking to drink a lot, buy a bottle.

[krobbie]

Certainly most of them are suckers.

Unless my TMJ is acting up...

mlomker, not wishing to appear naive but what is TMJ?

mlomker, not wishing to appear naive but what is TMJ?

TMJ (Temporomandibular Joint)

Temporomandibular joint, that area which connects the lower jaw to the skull. TMJ doesn't pick out a specific disorder, rather, it is a general term that includes different troubles undergo by the temporomandibular joint.

I think he was making a pun at the "most of them are suckers" pun Krobbie

[TrongpaiExpat]

Back on topic and continuing and updating with what's going on on Soi Twilight. This past weekend and even on Monday there was a decent customer base in the bars. All the shows are back to full performances of the usual sex shows with a few new twists here and there. I went into X-Size last night (Monday 21 Dec) and caught the 10pm show. There are some brief dancing numbers and one lip-sync number but mostly a show of very good looking guys with huge appendages performing various sex shows, the old candle routine and strip shows. They then circulate in the audience for a closer look, feel and a tip. The show started at 10 and went for about an hour and a half ending in a fuck show, two guys, masculine bottom and the top was huge.

The boys then got back on the stage and there were a lot. Many new and many very good looking. Not all Isaan boys, many from other area and even a few Thai-Chi boys. Most of the chairs with tables were filled, many had a open bottles and lots of boys sitting with the customers. They tell me business is picking up now and off's have been not as bad as the past 3 or 4 months. The customer base looked to be about 1/2 Asian.

the average Thai, who in the average job would be lucky to make 400-600 baht a day
What ARE you talking about Hon?? The AVERAGE wage in BKK for an average worker, in department store, or 7/11 or a bank or money changing or security guard or waiter or maid is between 110 to 180 baht. Usually around 140B. Construction workers get 120B per DAY for NINE HOURS of work, Dear.

the average Thai, who in the average job would be lucky to make 400-600 baht a day
What ARE you talking about Hon?? The AVERAGE wage in BKK for an average worker, in department store, or 7/11 or a bank or money changing or security guard or waiter or maid is between 110 to 180 baht. Usually around 140B. Construction workers get 120B per DAY for NINE HOURS of work, Dear.


The minimum wage in Thailand is currently 203 baht per day in Bangkok and slightly less in the provinces.

http://www.boi.go.th/english/how/demographic.asp

You'd never see a Thai construction worker drinking a Leo if they only made 120 baht a day, anyway...

You'd never see a Thai construction worker drinking a Leo if they only made 120 baht a day, anyway...

Yes you would, but they wouldn't be buying it in Boyztown :laughing3:

ONLY if they had Boyztown as their moonlighting job, sir! But your point well taken...

[TrongpaiExpat]

Fresh Beach Boys management was turned over to the owners wife this week and she managed with a heavy hand. Fired 1/3 of the boys, another 1/3 left and she reworked the show. Never let a women design a porno show. It all dark and romantic now and not worth the time. Before she took over, the show was quite good. Even the dancing was fun to watch, now the good dancer is in drag and just lip-syncs.

When this bitch goes in the toilet she has one of the waiters stand guard outside the door so that no man enters.

[Beachlover]

ROFL... sounds like she's trying to be really popular.

[firecat69]

I have to say that Boys Bangkok/Dream Boys has finally passed the ridiculous milestone. Last night drinks were 300 baht. 300 baht for a 4 baht bottle of water and hardly anyone worth looking at. It will only stop when the suckers among us stop patronizing the place.
He is poster child for a Greedy Owner

Re: Soi Twilight Wednesday night
Author: firecat69 ┬╗ Sat 2 Jan, 2010 6:07 pm

I have to say that Boys Bangkok/Dream Boys has finally passed the ridiculous milestone. Last night drinks were 300 baht. 300 baht for a 4 baht bottle of water and hardly anyone worth looking at. It will only stop when the suckers among us stop patronizing the place.
He is poster child for a Greedy Owner


Wow...that's truly ridiculous...thanks for the tip. More business for others, then...at least until they follow suit like the lemmings they are.

[Beachlover]

300s sounds steep but I wouldn't be surprised to see it rise towards 400 in the future.

Here's the thing... I've never seen the place not packed to at least 90%+ capacity during the show. Sometimes you can barely find a seat. I usually get there right as the show's starting and get squeezed in somewhere. Maybe it's not like this every night... but it's certainly a popular venue.

So what can the owner do? He can't expand seating capacity. The logical decision is to increase prices and test out the price elasticity (i.e. how many customers do I lose if I increase pricing).

He's done this a few times... gradually increasing from 200 up to 300... and the place is still packed to the rafters.

If he maintains or continues to improve the quality of the show and the place's reputation for having a great show etc. continues growing I wouldn't be surprised to see prices at 350 baht... possibly even 390 in future.

He'll be after two market segments... (1) fresh tourists who are happy to pay a premium [they haven't discovered what "normal" prices are yet] to visit the biggest gogo bar in Bangkok... and (2) regular customers who aren't too price sensitive.

The third segment is regular customers who are price sensitive... If there's enough customers from the first 2 segments to keep him packed to the rafters then he can afford to do away with these customers.

Of course... there's always a price point where he'll start to alienate too many customers and decrease overall revenue... but once you get this kind of momentum you'd be surprised how far you can go before hitting it. Perhaps he has... or maybe he's still got a way to go.

[firecat69]

Some truth to what you say if tourist group is big enough. Just can't imagine regulars putting up with it much longer. By the way he may be packed but he sells one drink only from most customers who arrive at 945 and depart at 1130. And almost no one has a boy with them or buys a boy a drink. He is too stupid to realize he would be far better off selling 2 drinks on average and having boys get drinks. Just look at the lady bars . Drinks are 1/2 the price or less and business is booming.

As shows go it is ok but same same night after night so why would you pay 300 baht for a drink unless he has fabulous boys for you to look at before and after the show. Last night the boys on offer were of a very sad standard. I know many went home for New Years but he is still charging 300 baht.

There are far better looking boys at Telephone, DJ ,Balcony for much less, not to mention other clubs on Soi Twilight.

At some point these greedy operators will drive themselves out of business. The bottom line is most come to see Boys. I know many boys personally and they have no business for offs. This year 2009 the number of offs is way down. If boys can't make good money then they look for other options such as Gayromeo or massage parlors where their customer does not feel he is being robbed.

Greedy operators like this are too stupid to realize the only thing that counts are Good Looking Boys.

[Beachlover]

Some very valid points.

I think that area of business is down altogether in 2009... as are visitors and the entire Thai economy.

They'll never drive themselves out of business... but eventually it'll get to a point where an opportunistic entrepreneur will think, "I can offer better value" and try to do just that.

Perhaps they're greedy... but at the end of the day, the business is there to make money. If raising prices makes more money than that's a decision they need to make.

I think the "newbie"... "once off tourist peekers"... and "occasional visitors" group might just be big enough to feed them enough customers willing to pay a premium... up to a certain extent.

The theory that halving prices would bring them more revenue with more customers... higher average spend per customer and more offs... has some validity. But how certain are you about that? Would you risk millions of baht in revenue on it?

When increasing prices there's an immediate effect... all of a sudden you're collecting that much more per customer.

But reducing prices doesn't bring you more revenue immediately. Doing it on the gamble that eventually it'll attract more revenue is unnerving. You would have to do it... and wait a while to see if it works. It's a delayed effect. Why do it if the other tactic (raising prices) is already working to increase revenue every time you do it?

Anyway... very understandable that as a customer no one wants to pay more... but I'm not sure these bar owners are "stupid". Their business seems to be booming... certainly not perfect... but still packed to the rafters.

[firecat69]

Well my point is i don't think he is making a killing . I have owned and run 3 large bars in my life. Selling 1 drink per customer during a 2 hour period does not pay the bills. And if you ever go to his show, 80% of the people leave as soon as the show is over.. He has to keep raising the prices (in his mind) to make more money and in the end it probably is costing him money.

This is a common mistake made by bar owners who don't understand the elasticity effect of prices and thinks gross margins determine overall profit. The smart bar owner would rather do 2 million in sales with a gross profit of 1.6 million then 1 million at a gross profit of 900,000. The % cost of goods may be higher but the money in his pocket is bigger.

Once again my example are the lady bars who sell drinks constantly all night at a much lower price and I am sure turn a much larger profit. I

I agree with the above analyses from Beachlover and firecat69. However, there could be two other angles that may be helpful to bear in mind.

The first is our assumption that patrons go to gogo bars to look for and off boys. Perhaps this is not as generally true as assumed. Perhaps Dream Boys has discovered that there is large market of patrons who aren't interested in offing boys and just want to see a relatively good show. If that is the case, then expecting the bar to upgrade the quality of its boys cannot be the right strategy for it. Doing shows and more shows and charging for it is the appropriate response.

The second angle I'm wondering about is whether there is a vicious cycle going on between the bar and the police. The police see the bar raising its price and go in to ask for a bigger pay-off. The bar then tries to recover that increased pay-off by raising its price, which within a week, the police will have noticed....