quid pro quo

At the risk of flogging a dead horse / starting a conflagration, I'd like to hear current feedback on tipping. The recent discussion of a massage venue on Silom suggested a lower rate than my experience.

Market / economic conditions hit both workers and patrons ; for those of you more seasoned than I, for massage and bar (off) payments, what is the ballpark for this season? Bangkok still seen as a higher rate than Pattaya ? Certain bar workers expect more ? (e.g., Tawan in particular)

My point is not to shortchange anyone, but simply to have a positive experience with the funding I have. Specifics are hard to convey, I know. A more general review of ranges and guidelines would be appreciated.

[pong]

in my home language paar means something-paren even more!
This question is asking for a can of worms to open-the unmissable eternal dispute this site is famous for-there are NO changes to that-the main rule is there is no main rule-really, there has never ever been someone setting a table with fees or whatever-just rough guidelines. if you have visiteds this LOS more a once and done that utmost adventure-stepping out of the Silom/Sukhumvit enclave-you will also have noted that a plate of flylice (pardon-thats lkhao phat=fried rice) may cost 30/35/40/50/60/199/350/whatever THB-without any apparent relation to quality of the food-though often a little more as to the surroundings in what it is offered. Ditto for anything else. A normal stdd. Thai massage-1 hr, may cost you 60/99/100/140/160/180/200/300 and way more-again without any relation to quality, but more to the surroundings.
As to usually expected boys-tips, yes, BKK is and has always been a tad more exp. as PTY or other provinces. Again without any relation to quality offered.
For massage-shops aiming for ''more''-they either have some minimum set tip-advice, or they hide the extra's more-and then its up to you. In some-all from reports and no own exp., boys are quite apt at starting the bargaining themselves.
Latintops, who was most likely the one you refer to as mentioning low fees, has the southern mediterranean and lived long in Thaild attitude: if nothing is asked for but rendered, then the tip is minimal. ANYOne can always go to Saranrom park in BKK here-by whisking past an eternal supply of ladyboys, elder ladies and other too-young-looking young girls, no taxi/car is furhter needed at all, and hire one on the spot-for all in here the normal and almost universal tip is a purple note=500+ the HTL/room price of 60/100. Consider this as a guidleine like the minimum 25 bt for the flylice. If you buy him a hostdrink (10 bt at any of the million of stands or 7s)-up to you.

[Brad the Impala]

Rough and Simple Guide for an inexperienced and kind visitor

Short Time 1000 plus up to 500 only if VERY pleased(rates also to apply in massage venue when having sex)

Overnight 1500 plus up to 500 only if VERY pleased

These rates can be applied in Bangkok or Pattaya. You may be able to bargain them down from these if you are are really short of cash and generosity

[martin911]

Rough and Simple Guide for an inexperienced and kind visitor

Short Time 1000 plus up to 500 only if VERY pleased(rates also to apply in massage venue when having sex)

Overnight 1500 plus up to 500 only if VERY pleased

These rates can be applied in Bangkok or Pattaya. You may be able to bargain them down from these if you are are really short of cash and generosity

Gentlemen anybody that would WANT to bargain with someone, (from what is not expensive prices),who is in the already impoversied position of Having to sell themselves should really take a long hard look at themselves IMHO

They are not animals in a market,they are people for gods sake,yes use them for sex,we all do ,but try and treat them with some little diginty .

Martin911 wrote above- Gentlemen anybody that would WANT to bargain with someone, (from what is not expensive prices),who is in the already impoversied position of Having to sell themselves should really take a long hard look at themselves IMHO. They are not animals in a market,they are people for gods sake,yes use them for sex,we all do ,but try and treat them with some little diginty .

Indeed, I have nothing but contempt for persons who pride themselves on being able to bargain the boys down to a few hundred baht for an encounter. Anyone selling anything in Thauiland is desperate these days. Buy a pair of sandals for 50 baht that were originally listed at 200 might make you feel good, but trying to use the state of the economy to hire a kid for much less than the usual rate can only guarantee that his self-esteem is going to take a beating, as should yours.

I don't have to tip as I'm over 60 and overweight and all the Thai boys love me for my wit that they are queueing up to be my boyfriend. I also have the fact that I am an American on my side, The can't wait to get their arms around me (it usuall takes 10 of them to achieve this).

First time I've seen a humorous, pleasant post by andyinoz. Could he be changing, or have I got him confused with someone else?[

I don't cry for people who choose to take the easy way and sell their bodies. They choose. There are many who don't starve or sleep on the street and don't sell themselves. So poverty is NO excuse. I also treat them with respect befitting another human being. I don't try to lift them out of poverty by tipping 1000 for so-so services.

Its a business, like any other. Do you pay the garbage collector more than necessary, or the electrician, the cashier in Lotus, or anyone else?

If you do, then pay over the odds, consider yourself a charity and feel good about yourself - its pretty delusional, as your generosity may well not be going to the most deserving case in anyone's book, but if it makes you happy then that doesn't really matter.

If you don't, then do what you do for other services - pay the rate required to get the service you require.

[cdnmatt]

Gentlemen anybody that would WANT to bargain with someone, (from what is not expensive prices),who is in the already impoversied position of Having to sell themselves should really take a long hard look at themselves IMHO

They are not animals in a market,they are people for gods sake,yes use them for sex,we all do ,but try and treat them with some little diginty .

Ditto. I'm not allowed to pick up prostitutes right now, although that may be changing shortly. I always do long-time though, and always treat them well. Even if they provide shit service, I'll still give them a decent tip, then kick them out of my room. If they do good though, and sleep the whole night, I make sure they're compensated. I mean fuck, even if it's just a temporary smile, it's still a smile. Plus you feel better, they get a small bit of temporary happiness, and you become that much more desirable in the bars, so it works out well.


I don't cry for people who choose to take the easy way and sell their bodies. They choose. There are many who don't starve or sleep on the street and don't sell themselves. So poverty is NO excuse.

My god, I'm sorry, but did you actually just say that? Wow, I don't even know how to reply to that... Yes, yes, they all absolutely LOVE hanging out on stage all night in an air-conditioned room dancing wearing nothing but tight, white briefs while hoping some 200lbs 64yo guy can fuck them in the ass for $45. I'm sure when they were 11 years old, this is exactly what they were hoping for from life!


Its a business, like any other. Do you pay the garbage collector more than necessary, or the electrician, the cashier in Lotus, or anyone else?

If you don't understand the difference between bringing a prostitute back to your hotel / apartment, and getting a haircut, then I feel sorry for you.

CDN You miss the point. They CHOOSE to do this work. Millions don't sell their bodies and they still make a living. Whores are lazy people. They want a weeks salary in one night.

[dab69]

If you don't understand the difference between bringing a prostitute back to your hotel / apartment, and getting a haircut, then I feel sorry for you.


I would reserve my sorrow for their trick*

I don't cry for people who choose to take the easy way and sell their bodies. They choose. There are many who don't starve or sleep on the street and don't sell themselves. So poverty is NO excuse.

And there are many who do starve or sleep on the streets.

My rule of thumb for massages is

Price 0f massage + tip = 1000 baht
in Pattaya. (Massage is usually 300-350 baht.)

It is the ultimate short time and my demands are low. Also, I am quite popular with the boys because I'm a regular.

[cdnmatt]

CDN You miss the point. They CHOOSE to do this work. Millions don't sell their bodies and they still make a living. Whores are lazy people. They want a weeks salary in one night.

Alright, I'll make you a deal then. 5 nights a week, 2000 baht per night, and I get my way with you from 8pm until 10am the next morning each night. After that you can come back and tell us all how easy it is.

Deal? :-)

Its a business, like any other. Do you pay the garbage collector more than necessary, or the electrician, the cashier in Lotus, or anyone else?

If you don't understand the difference between bringing a prostitute back to your hotel / apartment, and getting a haircut, then I feel sorry for you.

The difference, cdnmatt, is in your perspective, not theirs. While you obviously see it as something special it simply isn't to Thai working boys/girls - to them it is just a job, like any other where they provide a service for which they are paid. If you have not realised that and can neither understand nor accept it then you have not understood anything about those you are spending most of your time with.

The world must be flat, I'm in agreement with GoneFisting...............

[cdnmatt]

The difference, cdnmatt, is in your perspective, not theirs. While you obviously see it as something special it simply isn't to Thai working boys/girls - to them it is just a job, like any other where they provide a service for which they are paid. If you have not realised that and can neither understand nor accept it then you have not understood anything about those you are spending most of your time with.

Yeah, right, for them it is just a job, and I agree with that. On the other hand, I don't know of many professions that bring someone's self esteem to such a low level that they have the strong urge to do yabba or get blind drunk as much as possible, just so they can tolerate the days.

I don't know many hairdressers, security guards, or maids who feel the need to resort to that mentality, but I know lots of working boys who do.

[rincondog]

cdn wrote: I don't know many hairdressers, security guards, or maids who feel the need to resort to that mentality, but I know lots of working boys who do.

You obviously know more prostitutes than hairdressers, security guards, or maids.

You are erroneously inferring a cause and effect.

The job does not turn the boys to drugs.

A certain type of boy -- the lazy, irresponsible, drug-using type -- is naturally drawn to the easy world of sex-for sale.

[allieb]

How much do you pay ? How long is a piece of string?

I offed a boy in Pattaya 2 nights ago it was a total disaster. I didn't intend to off him but he was so persistant and full of (bullshit) that I decided to take him off more out of compassion than want. He was a total washout and after 30 minutes and only getting a bad hand job I paid him. 1,000 baht and sent him on his way. A complete wate of money but I felt I couldn't pay less to a boy who tried with someone 30 years his senior.

Bangkok last night I ran into my old BS not in Silom but far out of town in a supermarket. He was the cause for me not comming to Thailand for the last 3 years. Those old members here will know why. Im not going to harp on about it now . To cut a long story short we had dinner together my heart weakened and we became friends again. He stayed over in my room and nothing happened. In the morning I gave him 5,000 and promised to renew our friendship so there is no real answer as to how much to tip.go with your heart.

The difference, cdnmatt, is in your perspective, not theirs. While you obviously see it as something special it simply isn't to Thai working boys/girls - to them it is just a job, like any other where they provide a service for which they are paid. If you have not realised that and can neither understand nor accept it then you have not understood anything about those you are spending most of your time with.

Yeah, right, for them it is just a job, and I agree with that. On the other hand, I don't know of many professions that bring someone's self esteem to such a low level that they have the strong urge to do yabba or get blind drunk as much as possible, just so they can tolerate the days.

I don't know many hairdressers, security guards, or maids who feel the need to resort to that mentality, but I know lots of working boys who do.

Again, that is your perspective, not theirs.

You have made the all too common mistake of assuming that because you look down on Thais in the sex trade so do they and their countrymen, leading to low self-esteem. Wrong. That may well be the case in the West but it is not so here; while hardly an invitation to the Captain's table, the stigma attached to those in the sex trade in Thailand is minimal compared to the West.

As has already been pointed out, you are not only confusing cause and effect but you appear to know comparatively few hairdressers, etc - yabba and alcoholism are anything but confined to those working in the bars and are a major problem in all areas and levels of Thai society; it is not "so they can tolerate the days" but primarily because they make the mistake of trying it when it is readily available, enjoy it, and become addicted.

That does not mean that I agree with numberoneexpert or BB that "Whores are lazy people. They want a weeks salary in one night" or that "A certain type of boy -- the lazy, irresponsible, drug-using type -- is naturally drawn to the easy world of sex-for sale". While certainly true in some cases such sweeping generalisations are misleading and, in a great number of cases, totally untrue. It is just a job, like any other, so like any other those taking it up may do so for many different reasons and, for some, it is simply the best job available at the time - not just the last refuge of the desperate or the idle.


Allieb, good for you. I hope he realises how much friendship means and costs (and I do not mean financially).

[Bob]

Again, that is your perspective, not theirs.

You have made the all too common mistake of assuming that because you look down on Thais in the sex trade so do they and their countrymen, leading to low self-esteem. Wrong. That may well be the case in the West but it is not so here; while hardly an invitation to the Captain's table, the stigma attached to those in the sex trade in Thailand is minimal compared to the West.


Maybe the Thai perspective in the Pattaya area is different but I believe there's a fairly significant stigma in many areas of Thailand. I've known too many gay Thais in the north (mainly the Chiangmai area) whose family have no clue about their present or prior work in the sex industry. Heck, a fair number of them don't even want to be seen by anybody they know (friends or family) in a gay venue.

The so-called stigma may be less in Thailand than the west but it's not minimal in my view.

Bob is correct. Of course non-sex workers in Thai society think that trade is as low as one can go. The same as any other society. To suggest anything different is totally wrong.
Why can't some tourists understand that whoring is done because it is fast money/ Not out of necessity.

[Bob]

Why can't some tourists understand that whoring is done because it is fast money/ Not out of necessity.

For some, sure, but for others there are other reasons. Some actually like it. Some simply hate the boring/poor life of the rural farm and, once exposed to the big city lights and amenities (discos, booze, city friends, etc.), only reluctantly return to the farm for short time periods (they go when they must go because funds have dried up, spend holidays with family and hometown friends, and/or to put in the perfunctory appearance once in a blue moon). Many also form friendships with other barboys and oftentimes find life with them (3-5 of them stuffed into some crappy rental) far preferable to their cranky fathers and difficult farm work.

Yea, the money helps (far more than they could earn on the farm or working any rural job) but it isn't the only reason many are employed in the sex industry).

the stigma attached to those in the sex trade in Thailand is minimal compared to the West.


The so-called stigma may be less in Thailand than the west but it's not minimal in my view.

You seem to have taken lessons in editing, Bob. My point was that these things are all comparative and that it is, for example, by no means unusual for Thai "Hi-so" to keep mia-nois who were prostitutes and to not only be seen with them in public but to take them quite openly to social functions; historically and even relatively recently some of the very top of Thai society have married (and divorced!) those known to have such a background.

The idea that someone's "family (would) have no clue about their present or prior work in the sex industry" is almost as offensive as it is laughable, assuming that a rural family are quite so naive or stupid as to not realise what is going on. Those arguing this line don't seem to realise that it is simply an easy excuse to keep them away from the family and friends.

[Bob]

The idea that someone's "family (would) have no clue about their present or prior work in the sex industry" is almost as offensive as it is laughable, assuming that a rural family are quite so naive or stupid as to not realise what is going on.

Whether it's offensive or laughable to you is irrelevant to me - and also irrelevant to the factual situations I've been aware of. Sorry that my facts interfere with whatever you read in Wikopedia.

Does it happen often? Hell if I know (actually I'd rather doubt that), but it does happen.

Whether it's offensive or laughable to you is irrelevant to me - and also irrelevant to the factual situations I've been aware of. Sorry that my facts interfere with whatever you read in Wikopedia.

OK, Bub, I'll spell it out for you (not that it will make any difference). These "factual situations", whatever that means, are simply a means for the boys to avoid being seen and associated too closely in front of their family and friends with the likes of people like you - nothing more. One can hardly blame them.

Does that mean that they are lying to you? Not really, they are just being economical with the truth and keeping everyone happy without embarrasing anyone - particularly themselves.

Is this sort of thing in Wikipedia? I have no idea, but as it is anecdotal I would doubt it. How do I know about it? It is a standing joke amongst many of the boys, to be used on the taos after the usual I love you/miss you/buffalo sick/sister stay a few days rubbish.

I agree with the remainder of what you say, for what that is worth to you (nothing, I expect), but this is simply hearing what you want to hear.

[Bob]

GF, as usual, you have little or no idea what you're talking about. But that's about par for many of your postings. Carry on.

[cdnmatt]

OK, Bub, I'll spell it out for you (not that it will make any difference). These "factual situations", whatever that means, are simply a means for the boys to avoid being seen and associated too closely in front of their family and friends with the likes of people like you - nothing more. One can hardly blame them.

Ummm, dude... just a few posts above this one you said there's no stigma attached to the sex trade workers in Thailand, so you're being a bit hypocritical here. I know many farangs love to live this in fantasy world where sexuality is completely open in Thailand, and fucking five different strangers a week is perfectly acceptable, but it's just simply not true.

Yes, there's a stigma towards gay people, and definitely one towards prostitutes. Due to cultural differences and the whole Buddhist aspect, the stigma towards gay people isn't anywhere near as bad as the West, but it still exists. If you think otherwise, you're probably spending too much time in the go-go bars. If anything, I'd almost go as far as to say being a prostitute in Thailand is worst than being a prostitute in the West, mainly due to how much importance Thais put on losing face.

[Beachlover]

I know many farangs love to live this in fantasy world where sexuality is completely open in Thailand, and fucking five different strangers a week is perfectly acceptable, but it's just simply not true.


LOL... sounds familiar.

I felt a little uncomfortable hearing about guys fucking 5 different strangers EVERY DAY... but each to their own I suppose. It was things like this that really gave Pattaya that "anything goes" nut town atmosphere for me. Liberating and disturbing at the same time.

[Patexpat]

Yes, there's a stigma towards gay people, and definitely one towards prostitutes. Due to cultural differences and the whole Buddhist aspect, the stigma towards gay people isn't anywhere near as bad as the West, but it still exists..

This is absolutely true. Having lived here for quite a few years I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of boys I know have told there family they work in a gay bar as a go go boy or as a sex worker..

Next time you are out ask the boy - what has he told his family? Chances are he has told them he is working in a hotel or retail outlet. The money goes home, the family back in Esan don't ask.

And there is a built in hierarchy here too .... boys who do work at beer bars as 'waiters' who are offed do not see themselves in the same strata as go go boys - it's very different, tho not many tourists would choose to differentiate.

[cdnmatt]

And there is a built in hierarchy here too .... boys who do work at beer bars as 'waiters' who are offed do not see themselves in the same strata as go go boys - it's very different

heh, I actually find that kinda cute, in a weird sort of way. You're right though. If a "waiter", even if you've known him for years, finds out you've hooked up with someone who used to be a go-go boy, he'll immediately lose respect for you. You can tell from his expression that he's thinking, "ohhh, so you're one of those farangs who hooked up with one of those boys".

I don't know, just kinda seems so hypocritical that it's cute in its own way. :-)

Ummm, dude... just a few posts above this one you said there's no stigma attached to the sex trade workers in Thailand, so you're being a bit hypocritical here.

No I didn't - and I have even said it twice now! For your benefit, for a third time:


the stigma attached to those in the sex trade in Thailand is minimal compared to the West.


Yes, there's a stigma towards gay people, and definitely one towards prostitutes. Due to cultural differences and the whole Buddhist aspect, the stigma towards gay people isn't anywhere near as bad as the West, but it still exists.

Much as I actually said! If you had any idea what you were talking about you would be dangerous (or at least as dangerous as Bub, who has shown himself to be about as well informed as you). Part of " the stigma towards gay people" derives from the interpretation of Buddhism - many believe that being gay is a punishment for misdeeds in a previous life, while many interpret the Buddha's teachings as not permitting gays to become monks - some temples enforce this rule technically, some don't. [/quote]



Having lived here for quite a few years I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of boys I know have told there family they work in a gay bar as a go go boy or as a sex worker..

Ditto ... why would they? After all "The money goes home, the family back in Esan don't ask." Why ask a question when you already know the answer? They are "keeping everyone happy without embarrasing anyone - particularly themselves." You may not like it, but we are actually in agreement.


And there is a built in hierarchy here too .... boys who do work at beer bars as 'waiters' who are offed do not see themselves in the same strata as go go boys - it's very different, tho not many tourists would choose to differentiate.

Agreed again, I am afraid! Everyone looks down on everyone else, depending on their perspective - a bit like this board!

Waiters look down on go-go boys as they either used to be one themselves and they think they have "progressed" or because they are better paid and expect a higher tip so they are superior, go-go boys look down on waiters as they think they are too old/unattractive to get up and compete, coyote dancers look down on both as they expect an even higher tip and are better paid, freelancers look down on those in the bars in any capacity as they think they are fishing for farangs (their terminology!) and can pick and choose rather than the other way round, those in the bars look down on freelancers as being too lazy and untrustworthy to hold down a "proper" job, those in Sunee look down on those in Pattayaland as being old and past it (the boys, that is), while those in Pattayaland look down on those in Sunee as being drug taking children trying to do a man's job ...etc, etc, etc

[Brad the Impala]

[quote="Gone Fishing":3utkxm9g]The difference, cdnmatt, is in your perspective, not theirs. While you obviously see it as something special it simply isn't to Thai working boys/girls - to them it is just a job, like any other where they provide a service for which they are paid. If you have not realised that and can neither understand nor accept it then you have not understood anything about those you are spending most of your time with.

Yeah, right, for them it is just a job, and I agree with that. On the other hand, I don't know of many professions that bring someone's self esteem to such a low level that they have the strong urge to do yabba or get blind drunk as much as possible, just so they can tolerate the days.

I don't know many hairdressers, security guards, or maids who feel the need to resort to that mentality, but I know lots of working boys who do.

Again, that is your perspective, not theirs.

You have made the all too common mistake of assuming that because you look down on Thais in the sex trade so do they and their countrymen, leading to low self-esteem. Wrong. That may well be the case in the West but it is not so here; while hardly an invitation to the Captain's table, the stigma attached to those in the sex trade in Thailand is minimal compared to the West.

[/quote:3utkxm9g]

Might as well put the whole of the sentence in when quoting yourself. The meaning is so much clearer.

Minimal?

Sounds like someone needs a good dose of reality.

I was actually reminded of this thread yeaterday when my partner was sent a lengthy phone message, which I thought highlighted the difference in the "stigma" attached to prostitutes and more particularly their clients, here and in the West.

When the well known Thai TV "superstar" On lost his telephone a few months ago it unfortunately contained an explicit "home video" of him having sex with a prostitute, which the finder of the phone duly circulated (and which my partner got yesterday). It was widely reported in the press, but there was no more than a passing mention of his partner's profession. When On later apologised about the video he also apologised for any embarrasment he caused her - with no mention of prostitution by either him or the press.

On the other hand when Hugh Grant was caught having sex with a prostitute the press interest was not so much in his arrest but was in why he had been with a prostitute, what a disgrace it was, how could he stoop so low, etc, etc.

A similar stigma - I don't think so.

It seems to me that this thread differentiates in degrees of morality between service providers and users? If any falang can tell me he has never been serviced, and then say he has never paid for that service, I would be very surprised. Why do falangs in the autumn of their years flock to Thailand? Boyztown & Sunee are full of the elderly, expectant of the perceived pleasures just a 1000 Baht away. If there were no users there would no providers? quid pro quo