The Perfect Off

[Nathan B]

In 20 years I've never raised the subject of payment while in the bar. Very occasionally I'll be asked and it's generally not a good sign. I only ever had one problem, over 10 years ago, when an off in Bangkok was unhappy with 1500 Baht for short time. He wanted 1700. I refused and he sulked.

Having said that, my expectations of short time tips have had to be adjusted, having recently returned to Bangkok after a long absence. It's clear that the boys in the major bars expect 2000 Baht for short time.

[latintopxxx]

...not a good day...find myself agreeing with both scotty and arsetroll...think I'll hop back into bed and pull the covers right over my head.

[MiniMee]

The suggestion that the police in any country are prevented from acting if a prostitute is given a "tip" instead of a "payment" displays a staggering degree of naivety.......

The reason these matters are not routinely pursued by the BIB has nothing to do with the euphemisms used or the easily proven illegality going on......

Spotty, in your case it is far more than naivety. It is plain ignorance. These words 'payment' and 'tip' are not merely euphemisms as you assume. They are prescribed terms in law and are used precisely so that laws are not broken. Of course everyone knows what is really going on, but the law is an ass and that's how everyone likes it. It is not that the BiB are prevented from taking action in cases of prostitution, it is just that they don't have to take any action if no laws are being broken.

The systems operated in GoGo Bars in Thailand have been long established to ensure that no action by the BiB is required. You pay the bar a fixed price to compensate for the time of their employee - no laws broken there. You have consensual sex with someone who has attained the age of majority in the privacy of your hotel room - no laws broken there. You offer a cash tip (a gift) to someone on a purely discretionary basis without any request for payment being made - up to you mister - no laws broken there.

Ahhh! Another quiet day at the police station, with no chasing around and no nasty paperwork to complete. Just the way we like it. Time to count the tea money....

sglad is quite correct to point out that the BiB are often in on the whole game with ownership of some of the bars. Again, no laws broken there, so all is at peace in the world. sglad also provides a link to a wiki page on John Burdett and his excellent series of novels based in Thailand and featuring Sonchai Jitpleecheep. Here's a quote from the wiki page:

The novels involve Thailand's sex industry and the red-light districts of Bangkok. Sexual matters are part of the narrative, including the juxtaposition of often conflicting Thai and Western norms and mores. They have been widely praised for the breadth and depth of understanding of a number of different cultures. Apart from the Anglo-Saxon cultural traditions with which he was brought up, Burdett has shown considerable familiarity with Confucian, Buddhist, Latin and North African societies, due to his extensive travels.

In the absence of your own experience and understanding of Thai or Asian norms and mores, I highly recommend you read Burdett's novels, particularly the latest in the series The Bangkok Asset. They just get better and better.

[scottish-guy]

Crap

If the BIB were in any way interested in prosecuting such behaviour the amateurish subterfuge of calling what is clearly a prostitution fee a "tip" would soon be demonstrated in Court for exactly what it is:

1. Boy is 18, Elderly Gay Desperado is around 60
2. Boy jiggles his bits on podium in effort to attract customers
3. EGD summons boy from podium
4. Boy joins EGD
5. EGD pays bar (known to BIB as a place where boys are on offer), a significant fee
6. Boy and EGD leave together
7. The duo arrive at hotel of EGD and the boy leaves his ID card at desk
8. At this point the boy has little to no money (easily established by interviewing co-workers)
9. Sometime later he leaves EGD hotel significantly richer with no plausible explanation of how he came by it (easily established by interviewing others or perhaps he even still has the money when questioned)

Sure, these would be circumstantial points of evidence - but not just the smoking gun but also the spent bullet will be when the boy readily incriminates EGD farang - because if you think said boy is going to risk a spell in the pokey in preference to cutting a deal with BIB which results in You taking his place then you are even more naive than I gave you credit for. If push comes to shove, the boy will stand in Court and sing like a canary about why you took him there, what you did to him (with graphic details), and how much you paid him for it.

No, MiniMee you wouldn't find yourself smirking at the Judge because you insist you only "tipped" the boy for his scintillating chat (despite the fact he can't speak English) and not for sex.

The reality is you'd already have been on the front page of PDN with the familiar tableau photo of said boy/s pointing at the miscreant, and you'd be well on your way to either a substantial fine or a short holiday courtesy of the Court.

So let's just enjoy the largesse of the BIB while it lasts and lets not think that the reason we can get away with it is because we are so much smarter than the Thai justice system in calling a payment for sex a "tip"

[frequent]

If the BIB were in any way interested in prosecuting such behaviour ...

LOL. They all get kickbacks from the bars precisely so that no-one gets prosecuted. In fact their "territory" is well-defined. I was in Tawan Bar one night several years ago when some out-of-area plain-clothes police arrived and attempted a shakedown of the management. A quick phone call to Tawan's usual protection racketeers and the nearby station despatched the local cops who arrived to see the arrivistes on their way empty-handed

On the other hand the cops must hate Grindr & Co - no kickbacks from freelancers

[arsenal]

I may be wrong here Scotty but my understanding is that only the prostitute is breaking the law, not the client.

Elderly gay desperadoes indeed. How dare you. How very very dare you.

[scottish-guy]

If that's the case Arsenal (and it might or might not be) then why does the basic argument about "payment" V "tip" even exist?

If we assume that prostituition is a crime in Thailand (and I've read many very strident assertions both that it is, and somewhat fewer that it isn't) then it would seem logical that anyone who facilitates or encourages prostitution (be that a brothel keeper or a punter) might well come under some degree of judicial scrutiny, if anybody was remotely interested in testing the laws.

But as we well know, very little is logical !!

[arsenal]

Well I've just looked it up and nothing is clear. But then in The UK we have a law against "disturbing the Queen's peace" which is prosecuteable even if she's reigning over her dominions in Australia at the time and sex between women was never illegal, only men. Bloody Queen Victoria.

[MiniMee]

Crap

Snotty, I do find your constant displays of abject ignorance highly amusing. However your consistent ability to misunderstand and misconstrue posts made by others is becoming worrisome.

We are not discussing whether prostitution is illegal or not in Thailand (it is) but you have shown (once again) that you don't know the meaning of the word in the context of Thai law, and that of most other countries (although there is a growing trend for a shift in the law in some countries now).

Arsenal is correct in that only the Prostitute could be prosecuted for engaging in prostitution under Thai law. The punter, the john, the EGD as you choose to portray yourself, commits no offense even if he was proven to be paying a published fee for the services provided. So the boy, in your scenario would only succeed in incriminating himself if he behaved as you suggest. Which of course he won't.

And that is really the point being discussed (which you failed to grasp): By forcing a boy to 'name his price', to agree to a fee in advance for services to be provided, as indeed many here advocate, you are forcing him (in the eyes of the law) to acknowledge that he is prostituting himself. This is where the clash of western vs Asian cultural norms and mores occurs. By attempting to agree a price in advance (rather than give a discretionary tip after the event) and thus forcing acknowledgement of prostitution, your are causing serious loss of face to the boy and bringing shame upon his family. Unthinkable.

The way things work in Asia, and the reason why this industry continues to exist, is that no loss of face is suffered and no laws are broken if young boys and girls choose to have sex with you, the EGD, purely because they find you to be a 'very handsome man' and they have decided that they 'love you long-time'. These words are not only designed to flatter, but they also serve to save face, as they maintain the pretense that this is not a commercial transaction. Of course these boys and girls live in the hope that you will prove to be generous and choose to give large tips, up to you of course, and they hope for that whilst maintaining the belief that they are not acting shamefully.

You can choose not to believe me, but it is a fact that what I have described is how the system works, and always has.

It's all perfectly logical. Try visiting Thailand again sometime to find out for yourself.

[arsenal]

We all know the 'bait boys'. Those lookers who are outside but unavailable to be offed. Well, naming the price often magically makes them available. The good stuff costs more Rabbi Poxxy. Get over it.