The Changes in Bangkok's Go-Go Bars

[arsenal]

a447 wrote:
"The talk is based around how much the customer pays and whether or not he was a nice guy. That seems to be it."

Exactly. Well said that man.

[bobsaigon2]

Back in the late 1990's, early 2000's, most of my offs were long time. I had more energy then and looked forward to a repeat performance in the morning before the boy left. Boys were not, as they are these days, in so much of a hurry to get back on stage and secure another customer. And in those golden years, since they were staying with you long time, some conversation did take place, in addition to the What your name / Where you from. At least the boys usually asked if you already had a Thai boyfriend, hoping to add you to their group of LDR supporters.

[AsDaRa]

This is certainly true.

Another factor that wasn't mentioned yet: Back then not only the staff in the bars was 100% Thai, but also the audience consisted at least partially of Thais. Many bars were mostly "by Thais for Thais". Even in Pattaya I remember several bars (such as Adam & Eve), where groups of Thai clients regularly occupied some of the tables, drinking and chatting and flirting with the boys. So when you visited such a bar, you often found yourself socializing with Thai gays. You felt like actually being in Thailand, as opposed to sitting in a tourist trap.

Where do these Thai gay men now go to, to off boys? I indeed never see local Thai gay men in gogo bars in the role of customer.

Also for old timers: ok, the boys were more playful back then, but the rest was the same? In other words you go sit, order drink, look, have boy over to sit with you, order him drink, decide to off him or not, virtually no contact in the bar with other customers (I rarely see in a gogo bar that customers socialize among each other), this has not changed at all?

Or - for example - you didn't need to order a drink in the past? It wasn't mandatory? Or it was common that customers socialized among themselves in these bars? Now each is on their own looking for a boy.

In short, I just want to know: the whole concept of a gogo bar has not changed? Only price has and playfulness of the boys and the number of customers in the bar? That are about the only differences?

[fountainhall]

Where do these Thai gay men now go to, to off boys? I indeed never see local Thai gay men in go-go bars in the role of customer.

Also for old timers: ok, the boys were more playful back then, but the rest was the same? In other words you go sit, order drink, look, have boy over to sit with you, order him drink, decide to off him or not, virtually no contact in the bar with other customers (I rarely see in a go-go bar that customers socialize among each other), this has not changed at all

Inevitably views will be quite personal. Yes, there were far more Thais who went to the bars, certainly during the 1980s, and you only occasionally see Thais now. As has been stated before, Thailand is at heart a very conservative society. Just as gays were mostly in the closet in western countries in the 1960s/70s, most Thai gays were also in the closet till quite a bit later. Even today, there is a large social stigma attached to being openly gay.

So although there must have been some form of gay underground before the 1970s/80s, this catered to very few Thais. The advent of bars that were openly gay and attracting farang resulted in some more openly Thai gays and others in the closet being prepared to take a risk of being "discovered" by going to these faring-type bars.

Were they more sociable? Perhaps. I certainly chatted to other customers and the boys more then than I have done more recently. The routine was virtually the same but overall there was just less pressure. Everyone accepted these were bars and it would have been ridiculous not to have at least one drink at what were very reasonable prices. Chatting with and hugging one or more boys was extremely common.

But they were not social clubs. They were, as today, sex joints dressed up as bars where guys entertained patrons. An earlier poster asked if the boys were always nude at that time. In Apollo and Twilight, the witching hour seemed to be 9:30 or 10:00 pm when the briefs came off and yes the dancers were nude. Even then, though, many of the boys covered their assets as best they could – typically Thai!

As to why very few Thais seem to go to the bars nowadays, there are no doubt several reasons. The obvious one is the ease of meeting up through the apps. Another is distance. Bangkok did not really start to develop until the 1960s. Between 1980 and 2015 the city expanded from 4.7 million to 10.2 million. Living in or near the centre is now too expensive and most gay Thais inevitably live quite far away.

But I have a theory: one of the main reasons is that what is happening here is similar to what happened a decade or two earlier in places like Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore where there was also a definite social stigma to being seen to be gay. When I first arrived in Hong Kong, for example, the vast majority of young Chinese men lived with their families in what we would regard as little more than broom cupboards. Forget the very rich who basically formulated their own rules. For the others, being gay was not really an option as there were just a couple of gay bars – both watched by the police. So it was really hard for two guys to find a place to meet alone together, let alone to have sex. Besides, wages were low and renting short-term accommodation was out of the question.

However, for the western colonial-type elite, people on expatriate terms with complimentary large apartments, good salaries and other benefits, it was far easier to take Chinese guys home since no-one would notice. So a considerable number of longer-term relationships developed between westerners and Chinese guys. When I first came to know and love Tokyo, it was the same: a large number of westerners with Japanese partners.

Note that age was not an issue at this time. It was not usually much older westerners with much younger Japanese. Indeed, good friends of mine are typical. An American/Japanese couple, they met in their late 20s in one of Tokyo’s gay bars and have been together for 32 years. There is less than five years difference in age.

When you think about it, the attractions for these young Asians were obvious. The chance to break free from their stifling home environment, to spend part of their time living openly as gay, to have a nice place to live right in the city and not far out, to go to good restaurants, take holidays overseas – and so on.

Now fast-forward a few decades. Wages throughout much of Asia are now massively higher. In a lot of cases, there is now a new generation of relatively rich and even very rich young Asians who live on their own or have room for a partner. Many more gay young men are also happy to break free from the accepted social norms. Put the two together and Asian guys realised that living a gay life did not necessarily mean hooking up with a westerner. Indeed, with expatriate terms progressively reduced or abandoned altogether throughout the region, many gay westerners are now less well off than many gay Asians.

It was therefore perfectly natural in my theory that young Asians started getting together with other young Asians. Here in Bangkok you can see it in the many saunas that have opened up that are almost exclusively Thai for Thai. It’s no accident that these are located away from the centre of the city where most Thais live. Same with the bars. The large, noisy gay bars in the Ladphrao or Ramkhamhaeng areas are packed with mostly young Thais and hardly a farang to be seen.

And the same is now true in the other cities/countries I mentioned. Go to Hong Kong’s famous Hutong sauna or Tokyo’s 24 Shinjuku and you’ll see very few westerners. Times change!

[AsDaRa]

I like your theory and it rings to my ear as possible. Nice to read that also in the past it was old Farang with young Asians and while they formally weren't prostitutes, it was all about the money and other stuff: "The chance to break free from their stifling home environment, to spend part of their time living openly as gay, to have a nice place to live right in the city and not far out, to go to good restaurants, take holidays overseas". So not real love I imagine.

The fact your friends are typical is because your friend wat at the time still in his twenties. Its normal his boyfriend is then by definition his age! (Unless you are into daddies which very few are.)

Now - if he went now with his current age to Japan for the first time - he wouldn't put an eye at his current boyfriend if his boyfriend was still in Japan and they met today for the first time and his boyfriend has his current age.

Now, we come to my theory: most gay couples of which both are say 50 are together because they want a partner, don't like being alone, want a companion, but not because they get horny from each other still. That is long gone.

One thing I am not sure about. You write "Even today, there is a large social stigma attached to being openly gay.".
Is this true? Because I know a Thai boy from rural country who is openly gay also in his home village. His sister is on his Facebook, when he go visits them he dresses gayish (he is a bit feminine, but no lady boy). It is obvious to everyone he is gay. In fact I went one time with him. They all must have known what we do at night. So this is something unusual in the conservative countrty side?

[fountainhall]

I like your theory and it rings to my ear as possible. Nice to read that also in the past it was old Farang with young Asians and while they formally weren't prostitutes, it was all about the money and other stuff: "The chance to break free from their stifling home environment, to spend part of their time living openly as gay, to have a nice place to live right in the city and not far out, to go to good restaurants, take holidays overseas". So not real love I imagine.

I don't think you actually read what I wrote! Where did I mention that in the past it was "old Farang with young Asians"? I didn't! The farang I remember in the bars on the 1980s were a great deal younger on average than today.

As for my "theory", again I was quite specific in saying there was generally not much difference in age. And where did I suggest that such relationships were not based on love? I didn't! As I am sure you are aware, sometimes love between two people whatever their sexes occurs quickly. Sometimes it happens over time. If you are suggesting there was no love or not real love between my American and Japanese friends and other similar relationships, then you are absolutely wrong! I knew a British/Chinese couple in Hong Kong who lived close to me and had been together for 10 years. Sometimes we'd all come to Bangkok and would go together to Barbiery to see the shows. For some reason even I never discovered, the British guy broke off the relationship and later got married and had children. His Chinese partner was devastated for he was totally in love with and devoted to his partner. Incidentally, they were also around the same age.

As for gay relationships, I tend to agree with you - but not specifically as regards age. I think most gay couples tend to be faithful to each other for a period of years - and that is based on love. Eventually (it could be 5 years, 7, 10 - I don't think there is any specific period) many relationships become more open and each partner will occasionally seek a sexual outlet with other guys. But - and this is where you are so fundamentally wrong - that does not mean each is only in the relationship for company, nor that thereafter they refrain from sex with each other.

Since you are so keen to learn about Thailand, why don't you read some books on the country and the LGBT movement here? Here are a couple of short excerpts from the United Nations Development Programme 2014 Report “Being LGBT in Asia: Thailand Country Report”.

There is a great juxtaposition between how Thailand is portrayed globally as a haven for LGBT tourism and the actual acceptance of LGBT persons within Thailand itself . . . While there is some appearance of acceptance for LGBT persons in Thai society, many face discrimination from family, education, media, legal, government, economic and religious structures, institutions and establishments . . .

Thai society does not wholly accept sexual and gender minorities. Attitudes towards LGBT individuals can be somewhat tolerant as long as LGBT people remain within certain social confines. Hostile attitudes may lurk below the surface of individuals and parts of society that do not express their views openly

So please never assume that whatever you may have experienced necessarily means that that one particular instance becomes a general truth.

[AsDaRa]

Sorry. I misread indeed about the old Farang versus younger Thai.

[werner]

Interesting discussion.

Oh...."the good old days", when the go-go bars were much better.

[arsenal]

There are places that only cater for Thais, both men and women. You'll never find them and even if you do, they won't let you in.

[christianpfc]

It is generally agreed that drink prices now are outrageous. Official annual Thai inflation rates since the year 1997 have varied between 8.10% in 1998 and -0.90% in 2015. Compound inflation appears to have been somewhere in the region of 70% - 80% during these 20 years.

As a very rough guide, therefore, basic costs should have gone up by at least 100% since 1997. But this excludes items like tea money payments and the likelihood of higher rents. It also omits the rise in incomes and living standards during the period throughout the country. So I have left out any mention of prices.

Drink prices rose much more than inflation elsewhere:
http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/201...ation-and.html

Inflation in Thailand

Restricted to Soi Twilight drink prices as I have no data for other commodities. Prices for May 2010 from here:
http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/201...ent-found.html compared to prices May 2015

Dream Boys 300 to 450 increase 8% per year
X-Boys 220 to 350 Baht 10%
Screw Boys 200 to 300 Baht 8%

Extrapolating this for 20 years, drink prices increased fivefold, whereas general inflation is twofold (taking fountainhalls estimation from above).

Back then not only the staff in the bars was 100% Thai, but also the audience consisted at least partially of Thais. Many bars were mostly "by Thais for Thais". Even in Pattaya I remember several bars (such as Adam & Eve), where groups of Thai clients regularly occupied some of the tables, drinking and chatting and flirting with the boys. So when you visited such a bar, you often found yourself socializing with Thai gays. You felt like actually being in Thailand, as opposed to sitting in a tourist trap.

See above. Locals have been outpriced. Even I have been outpriced.

The large, noisy gay bars in the Ladphrao or Ramkhamhaeng areas are packed with mostly young Thais and hardly a farang to be seen.

I don't know if there ever was a gay disco in Ladprao. The gay discos in Ramkhamhaeng Soi 89/2 are now all gone. When I first went in 2010, it was busy with several venues, and in Dec 2015, the last one closed http://christianpfc.blogspot.com/201...haeng-892.html
Now most activity is in Ratchada, and some activity in Sake and Welcome.