A future for Soi Pratuchai?

[fountainhall]

Just spotted this: Junta to purge Pattaya of prostitution

http://prachatai.org/english/node/6942

Well, heard that stroy before but this line echoes some points already raised about the media in this thread

It's been touted (sic) before and not happened. Yet combined with the stated intention to turn Pattaya into a more family-oriented destination I have a feeling it will carry more weight this time.

Back to Soi Twilight. There is a report on another Board of a police raid in the Soi last Saturday. They appeared to target at least X-Boys and Fresh Boys go-go bars. The writer subsequently visited Fresh Boys and discovered only about 10 boys working and the show shortened. He believes this is a result of that bar employing a large number of Vietnamese and Cambodians.

There are no posts about the scene in the Soi on following evenings. But it completely bears out what BonTong said about the bars depending increasingly on foreign sex workers. Judging from some chats I have had on the apps, it appears there are also now more foreign guys working in the massage spas.

[fountainhall]

Soi Pratuchai, and other bar zones in Thailand, will continue for sometime yet, but will rely increasingly on foreign guys as they can't find Thai's to do the job, anymore than the construction industry can, or the food processing or fishing industries can. The business will turn increasingly to the dark side as more human traffickers move in.

I've written about Alex Kerr's book "Bangkok Found: Reflections on the City" before and his very perceptive comments not only on Thai culture but also his views on the Thai sex business. Given the comments in this thread, I think it's appropriate to repeat some of his writing. Kerr who admits in the book he is gay has lived in Asia for most of his life - in Bangkok for over 20 years. The book was published in 2010 and is based on his observations and discussions with a wide variety of academics, professionals and ordinary Thais. This is an exceedingly well thought-through and illuminating book, nothing like the cheap novels of the lives of go-go boys.

For whatever reason, Bangkok unquestionably has the most extensive and international gay scene in all of Asia . . . Yet despite the festival atmosphere at Silom, Thai society is hardly the open sexual paradise that many foreigners imagine. This is another of those illusions propagated by the constant surface smile of sanuk . . . In fact there's a strong streak of puritanism running through modern Thai society. Austere Chinese morality, which frowns on sensual indulgence, plays a role, due to the large share of Bangkok's population with Chinese roots. You can also see vestiges of colonial Western values from the 19th century which Thailand took to heart in the process of modernization . . .

Underlying this is a sense of revulsion that society at large expresses against the more obvious signs of Bangkok's booming sex business, It gives the city an unsavoury air, and is a source of embarrassment internationally . . . Ironically, openness to foreigners works against Bangkok in the eyes of the world. Prostitution is just as large a business in Japan as it is in Thailand, maybe even larger, but it bothers foreign visitors and journalists much less, if at all. One doesn't often see an outraged article about the scandalous sexuality of modern Tokyo. This is because most of the sex is not accessible to foreigners; they just don't see it. In fact, much of Thai prostitution is also hidden . . . and the customers are in the vast majority Thai, not foreign.

I have what I call "the Weimar Republic theory" of Bangkok. As dramatised in the movie Cabaret, there was a brief moment of sinful freedom in Berlin during the Weimar Republic (1919 to 1933). It was the era of Kurt Weill's bittersweet music and Christopher Isherwood's novels and stories. By the mid-1930s the Nazis had stamped it out, and eventually all that remained was a legend of "Berlin in the 20s." Those who experienced it spent the rest of their lives telling others of the wild days that were now gone forever.

In time, the more outrageous forms that prostitution takes in Bangkok will disappear. For those things, Bangkok stands far out on the scale of what most cities in the world see as acceptable. I don't believe it will last. Slowly but surely we are seeing a clampdown, and it's a matter of time before the "sinful" Bangkok we see today fades away into legend, just as 1920s Berlin did.

Bangkok_Found1.jpg

[christianpfc]

Dreamboys staff had a meeting recently at which it was announced that Soi Pratuchai will shut down within 2 years. That's all I know. Cannot provide any details or more info.

Elsewhere http://sawatdeenetwork.com/v4/showth...everyone/page5 you write:

AsDaRa's suggestions above are, unfortunately, too close to home for me as I experience my 76th year.

1) Some of them must now be dead .... Does not apply to me.... yet
2) Some are now too old to bother posting (it is all less important, have seen it all, have read it all).... Applies to me
3) Some have lost their libido (or most of it, if they still can get an erection), so they have quit visiting Thailand and do not post anymore.....Applies to me. Doctor says I can't travel because of weak lungs. I say, what's the point of travel if I can't do anything once I get there?

All the best to my younger colleagues on SGT. Enjoy while you can.

So I wonder, if you don't bother much about the scene and don't travel any more, how do you know? Second or third hand information? Chinese Whispers?

Cannot provide any details or more info.

Does that mean you don't know more ore that you can't say it here?

As for the manager of Dream Boys retiring, someone else will take over as long as it's profitable. (I haven't been in years and have no plans to go, but judging by the forums, the bar is full. Whereas other bars are largely empty - own experience from nowadays just a few visits per year.)

[AsDaRa]

Would you regard that as middle class?

No. That is why I asked the question because someone else said the middle class is rising, boys not need to prostitute themselves anymore. While I have the idea the average salary is about 10.000-12.000 baht. Hardly middle class standard in my opinion, also not for Thailand. I think the real middle class is still relatively small.

I read also here in this thread that many normal jobs require a bachelor or master degree. How many Thai can afford such an education? There can't be that many with such a degree. Or does the government pay for it? Then the number with such a degree must be rapidly increasing indeed.

[TaoR]

I remember my first trip to Thailand in 1981 when I was 22. As an American I worked in Saudi Arabia where most of the ex pats I worked with were in their 50's...and straight. They used to show off their pictures and brag about their exploits. Oh, and since most of them had been working overseas for decades and or had been soldiers in the Vietnam War they all had tales of how great the sex tourist market used to be in Thailand.

So then I made my first stopover. It was only a one night stay....where I ended up spending the whole night at some massive girl bar/hotel. It obviously was not what I wanted but I figured, "What the hell....something is better than nothing!" After a very wild evening I ended up stopping into a bar for a couple of drinks where I met and became friends with the owner, a black American Vietnam War veteran who stayed in Thailand after his tour of duty and opened a small bar with girl go go dancers. I always stopped in this bar and touched base with him about the bar business in Thailand and he would always wax romantic about the "good ol' days." He eventually made me an offer to take over his bar...but that was in 1985.

So, after that trip I "KNEW" that I wanted to go back to Thailand and I just "KNEW" that someplace in that big sprawling city was a gay mecca...and I was determined to find it!

On my second trip I allocated a week to finding the gay mecca in Bangkok. As my first trip was just a stopover I had booked a hotel by the airport and on the second trip I booked a room at the Montein Hotel as it was much more centrally located. The first night I arrived I pulled out the phone book and called a male escort service and told them what I wanted. That was a flop but at least I did get him to show me the gay mecca! He got a meal and a tip and then I sent him on his way!

So, I offed a boy at Barbiery Coast and we hit if off and we then spent the next four years of regular visits exploring Thailand and also the Bangkok, Chiang Mai, and Phuket gay nightlife. Back then whenever you talked about Pattaya all you heard was "Pattaya no good." or "Pattaya finished."

The point being that every decade there seems to be a real doom and gloom about sex tourism in Thailand. Yet, here it is 2017 or 36 years after my initial visit to Thailand and everyone is still talking doom and gloom. I just cannot help but think, "Same, Same, but different."

Next year I turn 60 and while I have only gained 10 lbs since my first visit to Thailand I am definitely not going for sex. I am going to spend time with the guy I offed over 30 years earlier. After 30 plus years of letters, photos, then emails and now skype (oh and long periods of no communication), its time to meet face to face. Not real sure how that will work out...

He left the bar scene, served his military duty, went to college got married had kids and now grandkids...and while I have talked to everyone in his family I am just "a friend." Or a variety of typical Thai terms for a member of the family....

Sex and Thailand just go hand in hand. Oh, the bars change, the locales change but then again everything in life changes. Everyone focuses on the disruptive nature of the internet and all the dating apps available. Then there is the resentment toward the Chinese tour groups.

Well, the internet has changed sex around the world. You went from being able to view porn for the first time in the mid 90's to cyber sex, to now you have sites like Chaturbate and Omegele, that allow you to be a porn star in your own bedroom. These sites have created a whole generation of guys who now claim to be bisexual, gay, and straight...or now, "not into labels." In Columbia you can actually rent rooms that have the computer the camera and the furnishings to put on quite a show....there is no telling where that leads.

So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.

[bobsaigon2]

Good post, TaoR. I enjoy reading the reminiscences of "senior" board members.

[TaoR]

Well, Bob, having read all I want to read about the Tartawan Hotel (I believe I stayed there numerous times back when it was part of the Best Western chain) and now reading about where has everyone gone? I figured I might as well post my memories...it can't hurt!

[fountainhall]

I remember my first trip to Thailand in 1981 when I was 22 . . . So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.

I beat you to Thailand by 2 years but was a year or two older. Like you I was on a 24-hour stopover en route from Paris to Hong Kong but I had been travelling in the USA and Europe almost non-stop for 3 weeks.

I knew that the gay district was near Suriwong but friends said I had to see the Grand Palace and the Wats. Stupidly I agreed to their idea that I stay at the Royal Hotel at the top of Sanam Luang. After all, I thought, I can see the Palace in the afternoon and it won't take long to get to Suriwong in the evening. Good idea, had it not been for jet lag and Bangkok's traffic! My flight from Paris was one of the bus-stop flights so common in those days - Paris, Dubai, Delhi then Bangkok. Plus I made the stupid error of taking the Thai Air limousine minibus service which proceeded to stop at 7 other hotels (including the Montien which was the area i really wanted to be in) before reaching the Royal 2 1/2 hours later.

I was so exhausted I decided I'd take a quick nap before heading to the Grand Palace. Mistake! That 45 minutes ended up as 4 hours. End of the Palace visit! Still feeling like a zombie, I grabbed an early dinner at the coffee shop and went out on to the street to get a tuk-tuk to Suriwong. No empty tuk-tuk to be seen! Eventually a tout approached me. Did I want a girl? No! A boy? Yes. By this stage I didn't care what this was going to cost. I was not going to waste my entire 24 hours. Miraculously a tuk-tuk appears and we take a long, long drive. I had no idea where we were going. Eventually we ended up in Lang Suan and an old rickety Thai-style house down a short driveway. I protested that i wanted to be in Suriwong (not knowing then that it was nearby) but was told to go in and have just one drink. If no good, the tout would take to Suriwong.

The Stockholm bar was a dump. About a dozen fully clad boys seated around who on my entering were ordered to get up on stage where they just stood and looked at me. No-one else was around - just me. I ordered a beer whereupon the mamasan sidled up to me asking the usual question: "Which one do you like?" To be honest, I liked them all but had no idea of what to do in go-go type bars. I felt somewhat shy and stupid. Sensing my difficulty, she whispered in my ear: "Take 2!" My mind ran amok with visions of paradise down here on earth.

That indeed is what I did. After showering, the boys and I went into a private room upstairs, disrobed and started to get down to it. I was nervous but one of the boys helped me get involved. I was just amazed that this sort of open, fun sex was available and happening to me.

I never returned to Stockholm and had no idea how much longer it survived. On my next visit 9 months later for a proper holiday, I discovered the Apollo go-go bar in Silom Soi 4 and loved it. For some years it was my regular bar. The boys were always such fun! Then I found My Way, Twilight, Barbiery and the new start-up saunas like Volt and Obelisks . . . by then I was the typical sex tourist with the great good fortune of living only 1,000 miles away in Hong Kong.

But that was then. And of course times changeI I do agree with TaoR that millions of gay Chinese will be looking for tourist destinations in the years to come. But he and I have different outcomes. I just do not see the Chinese - like their Singapore, Taiwanese and other Asian counterparts - flocking to go-go bars to off Thai guys. Nor do I see them using the apps to find sex with Thai guys. Some will, but to the vast majority Thailand, if the gay scene does in fact survive, will become a sideshow, a sexual Disneyland where you look and enjoy the experience, but you do not take part. I know too many Chinese and other Asians who already visit Thailand but will never dream of offing a Thai guy. They'll enjoy massages, go to saunas, take in a show if they still exist - but they will not act like the westerners used to in olden days. Same sex drive but very different cultures!

[BonTong]

I've written about Alex Kerr's book "Bangkok Found: Reflections on the City" before and his very perceptive comments not only on Thai culture but also his views on the Thai sex business.

Thank you for sharing. Alex Kerr has it spot on.

I am going to spend time with the guy I offed over 30 years earlier.

I enjoyed reading TaoR's post, but don't share his optimism. I too am in regular contact with some Twilight guys from 15+ years ago. Back when those in the business were friendly, nice guys who recognised what they were doing was not the best job but they were determined to make the most of it and enjoy themselves along the way. I'm not sure the same holds true for the boys of today. As far as nice Thai guys working in the bars, we seem to be reaching the bottom of the barrel. It's now only about money and many are too amped up to care about anything.

What I do see is the younger friends of the boys I knew now pursuing a different business model. They have no interest in short times with an old farang. They go to BKK and seek out encounters in five star places with affluent Singaporean, Malaysian or even Chinese Businessmen who they can milk for the long term.

So now 8 to 11 million Chinese head to Thailand in groups every year. What happens when lets say 10% of those Chinese decide to head back to Thailand on their own for their next trip? That will change the whole sex tourism market in a big way and a positive way.

I doubt it. Many Thais hate Chinese tourists even more than Farangs! I suspect this business will move to Cambodia, the Philippines and to an extent Vietnam.

[TaoR]

Fountainhall, Travel in the days before the internet.... Reading forums I cannot help but think that the internet just might be ruining travel; I mean the searching and guessing and hoping...and then the moment of arrival! I remember the Apollo went there nightly. I sometimes wish I had been a "butterfly" but I am not. I just got lucky when I finally stumbled upon Nirvana being Barbiery and while the numerous boys on stage didn't get my attention a waiter eventually did...

We just clicked...

So every night off we went dancing and partying the night away....

One night he got a group of his buddies together (both guys and girls) and we went to Pizza Hut for pizza and beer. So here I am in Bangkok late at night eating with a bunch of Thai sex workers. One girl we had seen earlier shooting ping pong balls across the stage totally naked. Another guy had his wife with him and he also had the boy with him who he performed with during the big cock fuck show....I mean what a collection and they were all sharing their stories with me....deciding which farang nationality was better and what was wrong with the others...

Americans came out on top because they were the easiest to please, took showers, and paid the most because sex made them feel guilty! I just laughed because here I was talking shop talk with a bunch of sex workers.

Another time we had a couple of his friends over to the hotel and we were drinking beer and my guy tells me that one of his friends had never had sex with a Farang and he wanted to get fucked by a Farang....

I just looked at him and said, "Gee so now you are a mamasan at a bar with Farang boys for Thai customers?" I then asked him what the tip would be for a short time?

I don't know what the future holds for sex in Thailand...but I know that the warnings of its demise are clearly not true...someone is going to figure something out...