Does this piece describe you? Culture shock.

[arsenal]

Sorry Fountainhall: The 'the deep-rooted, age-old respect for elders' does not extend to anyone giving up their seat on a bus or train for them, unlike in The UK. So it's a meaningless respect as it exists in words only. And perhaps your bowing was most correct or perhaps it wasn't. The Japanese would be very unlikely to tell you if it was the latter for the very reasons we've been discussing. Fitting in does not and has never meant aping, It means both sides accepting the others foibles.

Are you seriously saying you mastered this? Because I find that hard to believe.
From Wikipedia on Japanese etiquette.

Bowing
Main article: Bowing

Bowing (お辞儀 o-jigi?), is probably the feature of Japanese etiquette that is best known outside Japan (the o お is honorific but cannot be omitted for this word). Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly.

Basic bows are performed with the back straight and the hands at the sides (boys and men) or clasped in the lap (girls and women), and with the eyes down. Bows originate at the waist. Generally, the longer and deeper the bow, the stronger the emotion and the respect expressed.

Bows can be generally divided into three main types: informal, formal, and very formal. Informal bows are made at about a fifteen degree angle or just tilt over one's head to the front, and more formal bows at about thirty degrees. Very formal bows are deeper.

The etiquette surrounding bowing, including the length and depth of bow, and the appropriate response, is exceedingly complex. For example, if the other person maintains his or her bow for longer than expected (generally about two or three seconds), it is polite to bow again, upon which one may receive another bow in return. This often leads to a long exchange of progressively lighter bows.

Generally speaking, an inferior bows longer, more deeply and more frequently than a superior. A superior addressing an inferior will generally only nod the head slightly, while some superiors may not bow at all and an inferior will bend forward slightly from the waist.

Bows of apology tend to be deeper and last longer than other types of bow. They tend to occur with frequency during the apology, generally at about 45 degrees with the head lowered and lasting for at least the count of three, sometimes longer. The depth, frequency and duration of the bow increases with the sincerity of the apology and the severity of the offense. Occasionally, in the case of apology and begging, people crouch down like Sujud to show one's absolute submission or extreme regret. This is called Dogeza. Even though Dogeza was previously considered very formal, it is mostly regarded as a contempt for oneself today, so it is not used in an everyday setting. Bows of thanks follow the same pattern. In extreme cases a kneeling bow is performed; this bow is sometimes so deep that the forehead touches the floor. This is called saikeirei (最敬礼), literally "most respectful bow."

When dealing with non-Japanese people, many Japanese will shake hands. Since many non-Japanese are familiar with the custom of bowing, this often leads to a combined bow and handshake which can be quite complicated to execute. Bows may be combined with handshakes or performed before or after shaking hands. Generally when bowing in close proximity, as necessitated when combining bowing and shaking hands, people turn slightly to one side (usually the left) to avoid bumping heads.

[a447]

Are you seriously saying you mastered this? Because I find that hard to believe

Arsenal, I don't find it hard to believe at all.

What Fountainhall has no doubt become adept at is combining a simple bow with certain common words or phrases in Japanese. These words magically elicit an automatic bow as they are spoken. Examples are konnichi wa (hello) and arigatou (thanks).

Although the Wikipedia article is basically correct, it would be wrong to think that in real life people actually mentally "measure" the exact angle of the bow, be it 15, 30, 45 degrees or whatever. Such precise angles are only adhered to by department store girls and flight attendants.

The angle and length/timing of the bow is something that you just know, instinctively. You make a very quick decision once you have summed up the situation. That's why Japanese use business cards-a quick glance will tell you who bows the deepest.

So I've no idea if fountainhall has mastered the intricacies of the Japanese bow in every different situation, but I'm sure he knows at least the everyday one. He would be aware that a greeting which was not accompanied by a bow, even from a foreigner, would look very strange indeed.

I still remember the days when I'd be talking on the phone at home in Australia to certain staff members in my old company back in Tokyo. My friends would piss themselves laughing because I was constantly standing there bowing as I was talking.

"Who the fuck are you bowing to? There's nobody there!" they'd say.

Lol

[arsenal]

If companies need to provide training on this bowing thing then I fail to see how a westerner can really get it. But hey ho.

[a447]

Easy. Companies which deal with the public must ensure that their employees get it perfectly correct. There can be no room for the slightest error.

These employees are also given intensive language training, too. "Why?" you ask, if they are all native speakers? Because they are expected to speak appropriately to every customer on every single occasion. There is no room for error here, either. A wrong word or verb ending would be catastrophic. So they attend special classes day after day until they get it perfect.

Everybody else just gets it "right" (as opposed to "perfect") including, I suppose, some foreigners. But they certainly won't be tourists.

[fountainhall]

The basic bow is easy to pick up, and the general art of bowing is actually not all that complex when you visit Japan regularly and then work there for a period of years, the more so when you work in a company with only Japanese staff at various levels who are bowing goodness knowns how many times a day to a variety of different people in different positions. It was easy to see how managers in my position would bow to the Chairmen and Presidents of major Japanese corporations, the difference when it was Executive Managers and then plain old ordinary managers. And in quite a few of the companies my team and I had to visit, the executives we met spoke almost no English and expected those from the company I worked for to conduct themselves in the manner of other Japanese.

Of course not all those bows in the wikipedia article were in my repertoire. I never had to apologise to my staff, for example LOL But the positions as outlined in the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs - all that comes reasonably quickly if you are prepared to use your eyes and think of yourself as a Japanese. That is not "aping" as you say. I suggest it is being culturally sensitive with a view to achieving the objectives your company has set for you.

[fountainhall]

If companies need to provide training on this bowing thing then I fail to see how a westerner can really get it. But hey ho.

Companies don't do any training at all. Children learn the culture of bowing from their parents almost as soon as they can stand. And they gradually pick up the intricacies as easily as they learn the language. If they don't know how to bow when they apply for a job, they won't get the job!

[arsenal]

You don't get it right. They just don't tell you. Asian politeness. Just as we wouldn't tell someone who ate soup with a dessert spoon.

A quote from the article.
"Bowing is considered extremely important in Japan, so much so that, although children normally begin learning how to bow from a very young age, companies commonly provide training to their employees in how to execute bows correctly."

But you picked it up? A culture going back centuries. Impressive.

[fountainhall]

You really are becoming boring, arsenal! And your continued harping on on this topic when you know nothing about it, despite what I and a447 (a poster who spent decades in Japan) have written, implies you don't believe what I have written. Well I can tell you it is the absolute truth. And I trust you will not continue to infer that I am lying.

Incidentally, when I left Hong Kong for Japan, I gave a dinner for my senior staff. Our senior accountant gave me what I thought was the greatest compliment I could have hoped for. She said the staff felt I was "more Chinese than a Chinese". No doubt you don't believe that either.

[a447]

Companies don't do any training at all

Actually fountainhall, companies in the service industry certainly do have training courses. Lots of them. If you fail the "exam" at the end of the course, chances are you're out.

And arsenal, from my experience I have no doubt whatsoever that fountainhall is telling it as it is. From what I gather, he worked as a businessman for many years in a Japanese company so I'm pretty sure he would know what to do with regards to bowing etiquette. Ok, he may or may not have "mastered" it, but he'd pick up the basics pretty quickly I'd imagine.

As he said,"use your eyes and think of yourself as a Japanese." That should do the trick.

Incidentally, I find this topic very interesting. I've tried many times over the years to explain this whole bowing thing to my Australian friends, but in the end I just gave up. It was too hard.

[arsenal]

If you say so Fountainhall. I'm not sure being described as Chinese is entirely a compliment but one can, of course take these things how one wishes. Don't take things so personally. I simply refuse to accept that a westerner can fully understand the culture of a totally different society and that goes for Asians heading the other way. And if you don't speak the language it goes double. But it's just my opinion.