Yes, "even you" know... everything (shades of Beachlover). Let me put it this way: if I were to return to America now, I would be very displeased with the way things are going.
Yes, "even you" know... everything (shades of Beachlover). Let me put it this way: if I were to return to America now, I would be very displeased with the way things are going.
Dax (February 5th, 2017), fountainhall (February 4th, 2017)
I can relate to your experience 100%.Originally Posted by werner
On returning to Australia after a life in Japan I experienced reverse culture shock and within a week was ready to pack up and go back to Tokyo.
Although I never forgot how to speak English I had a lot of trouble understanding Australian English and I thought everyone spoke so quickly that I couldn't understand everything. The accent still amuses me.
I found Australians to be way too forward, way too blunt, way too eager to express their opinions, whereas I had spent a life trying not to tread on people's toes, choosing my language carefully whenever I spoke.
I'm over it now but still find certain things that irk me from time to time. Like the "she'll be right" attitude or when people say "That'll do; that's close enough."
No it isn't! It has to be perfect! Lol
The mai pen rai attitude is alive and well in Australia.
werner (February 4th, 2017)
I think there is always culture shock both when you move to any society in a country/continent far removed from your own and when you return after a longish period of time. For me, language has never been a major issue if only because I never bothered to learn more than the basics in the three countries where I have lived. I realise that is mostly sheer laziness, especially here in Thailand where I promised myself I would learn Thai and reneged on it - so far. Cantonese in Hong Kong is a tough language to master with its nine different tone levels. I did try, made endless embarrassing mistakes and then gave up. In any case, for most of my years living there English was the second language and even taxi drivers knew quite a bit.
Tokyo was very different, but I had visited dozens of times before moving there and so knew the basics as it were. Plus I was working for an American company and all the senior managers spoke English. There was no pressure to learn more. Same when I moved to Bangkok. Enough people speak at least some English.
What I have enjoyed is trying to assimilate more to the cultures, many aspects of which are so totally different from those I was brought up with. The vital importance of face - both giving and losing; not "treading on toes" as a447 pointed out; the need to remain calm and the avoidance of conflict; the different levels of bowing in Japan and wais in Thailand; 'no' sometimes meaning 'yes' and vice versa; lengthy silences during negotiations in Japan that can seem oddly embarrassing to westerners; providing evasive answers that leave you uncertain of what has been agreed or decided when the other party is perfectly sure they have been 100% clear; the difficulty others have in understanding English idioms - and hosts more. Although I have returned to the UK annually, increasingly I find the almost in-your-face directness strangely uncomfortable, as though the rules of the role-playing that are required in some Asian societies are being flouted and I don't understand why!
An excellent piece Fountainhall. My theory is that more direct language comes along with a genuine democratic process and rule of law.. So the question "Do you like the government?" can be answered with a clear yes or no. This is not the case in most countries where the wrong answer can get you into a lot of trouble. Hence what westerners see as constant hedging.
Thanks to forum members for this interesting discussion.
"Culture shock" results from traveling the world and trying to understand various cultures. It also involves trying to readjust to our own cultures when we return.
"Culture shock" involves trying to learn different languages and trying to communicate with people of different cultures. But, as we travel the world, we also adjust our own native language(s)and our ways of communicating, even in our "native" languages.
French is my "native" language. But my Swiss-French accent has certainly changed a bit after living in France, and working in Senegal and Côte d'Ivoire. If I spent much time in the Montréal, what would happen to my French?
But alas, my French is sometimes overpowered by my English, because I did all my university studies and graduate training in the U.S., and I write about "Gay Thailand" in English.
Thanks again for the discussion!
That's the point.as though the rules of the role-playing that are required in some Asian societies are being flouted
In Asian countries people learn from a young age a variety of roles and they know what role to play and when it must be played. There are very strict rules governing each role and getting it wrong results in a massive loss of face.
Like many things in Japan, these rules are not written down anywhere and are often not even mentioned. But everyone manages to learn them.
It results in an orderly, peaceful society.
There are, however, drawbacks in the eyes of some foreigners.
a447 wrote:
"In Asian countries people learn from a young age a variety of roles and they know what role to play and when it must be played. There are very strict rules governing each role and getting it wrong results in a massive loss of face."
Exactly. This is why westerners should never bow in Japan or wai in Thailand. Get it wrong and it's the equivalent of addressing a judge as 'matey boy' or the waiter as 'your royal eminence'.
Well, not if they do not understand exactly how it's done.This is why westerners should never bow in Japan or wai in Thailand.
These things are impossible for a non native to fully understand unless they have spent many years living there and speak the language fluently.
I believe it goes a lot deeper than that in several countries. In Japan, Korea, China, Thailand there is the deep-rooted, age-old respect for elders. So you do as you are told. more or less. In Japan the samurai culture of blind obedience is even more obvious. Very few manage to break the mould which dictates that the square peg will be rammed into the round hole if it will not do so of its own volition. That will change over time, but it is the new younger generations that will effect that change. And the period of change will take longer than those calling from outside for greater freedom and democracy as a cure for government misdeeds.
There was an interesting article in a recent issue of the Hong Kong Foreign Correspondents' Club. Keith Richebourg is an American journalist who was the Washington Post's Beijing Bureau Chief before moving to the same position in Hong Kong. He has also been based in several other countries and is now the Director of Journalism and Media Studies at Hong Kong University. He gave a talk to the HKFCC last year focused on freedom and political events. He said decades ago he strongly believed that as the spread of the internet would "hold democracies to account around the world, so it would also happen in China."
"But i was wrong."
He went on to talk about the Asian Economic Crisis which quickly led to currency devaluations and a general loss of faith in governments across the region. "We were swept up in this idea that the economic crisis was going to change the Southeast Asian landscape . . . Just as democracy swept through Latin America and the former communist states of East Europe . . . East Asia too is in the midst of what many are calling a slow but steady move towards pluralism and openness.
"But I was wrong."
He spends some time talking about what he calls the Weibo (a major blog site in China) pressure period in 2009 and 2010 when ordinary citizens were quietly posting information critical of the government. "There's the story of the blogger who looked at official photos where he focussed on their wrists to see what watch they were wearing; pricing them and then matching that to officials' salaries – disciplinary action followed for the officials . . . It was a sort of people's campaign against corruption . . . the free and open Weibo period where people could speak out to power and news could filter through. I thought it was never going to change back again.
"I was wrong."
He cites several reasons for the change in official thinking in China too numerous to mention here. But looking at China and what was happening in some other Asian countries led him to a conclusion.
"What's happening here in Asia does not fit any model that we have ever had before. A growing middle class makes countries more democratic was the model I studied. However, China (and he mentions another country here) has turned that around, where the new middle class want stability rather than democracy." He is not totally pessimistic about future movements towards democracy, but it will take time.
It so happens I have four gay friends here in Bangkok for a few days. They live in Beijing and Shanghai and two I have known for about 25 years. Discussing politics in very general terms at dinner on Thursday, I told them this view of Keith Richebourg. They agree entirely. They want stability over almost anything else. it has enabled them to run their own small businesses. All travel quite extensively to Europe and North America as well as around Asia. Why would we want the political chaos we see in the USA, the UK and other parts of the democratic world? was a common refrain. Of course they are perfectly well aware of the corruption and other major problems that exist in China. But they know from the previous generation how chaos had ruled in China as far back as anyone could remember. What they want to continue is stability. (I know arsenal has also mentioned this in posts on another thread).
One wonders what Keith Richebourg will have to say about East Asia after another 20 years or so.
Sorry arsenal but I have always bowed in Japan ever since my first or second visit. You learn and it becomes second nature!!
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