Does this piece describe you? Culture shock.

[Smiles]

Pharang wrote:

"You sound like a Yankee sipping Bourbon while being fanned in the lobby of a Havana brothel in 1950.

A cutiesypie (sp?) analogy if I have ever heard one ... cutsey but shallow. Almost in the same league as the first Pharang attempt at it: " ... It's like saying we should all become cannibals if the locals are still eating each other .." Gearing up for an Analogy Free-for-All are we?
I smell a man ~ not woman ~ named 'H*dda'. (I choked on that name some years ago ~ which explains the " * " ) .

[Marsilius]

Sad to say, in my experience many ex-pats living in Thailand never get beyond stage 3 - the anger stage. As the original piece observed, that frame of mind can be perpetuated for years and some people actually seem to glory in their sheer rage towards all things Thai (even, sooner or later, the boys).

I have known an Australian who has lived in Pattaya, Bangkok and most recently Hat Yai for more than 20 years. Unfortunately, it is no longer even a pleasure to meet up with him on my visits to Thailand because of his constant negativity that, far from decreasing as time goes on, seems to get worse.

[Manforallseasons]

Freedom is itself an abstract concept. In the US you can criticise the government but should not walk alone at night in many many places. In other countries it's the other way round. In quite a few ways countries with less 'freedoms' are actually providing their citizens with a more free way to live their day to day lives.

That is an excellent point arsenal, I have been all over Thailand at all hours of the day and night and never did I ever feel unsafe.....Maybe this is what Pharang meant when he spoke of "mobility" the freedom to go when and where you want safely, also if Pharang knows anything about Cuba I'de be sipping Rum not Burbon.

[arsenal]

And in fact MFAS it goes even deeper than that. The liberating joy of walking home at 2.00 or 3.00am and every woman you see is simply not scared of you compared to The UK where they are and then you feel guilty just for being there. The city I live in has over two million people, and virtually no crime. That's real freedom that is. Bliss.

[fountainhall]

That is an excellent point arsenal, I have been all over Thailand at all hours of the day and night and never did I ever feel unsafe

I have lived in three Asian cities in three different countries for over 35 years. I have never once felt unsafe. Whilst travelling I have been robbed on the streets in Rome in daylight, mugged in Rio in the daylight, robbed in Barcelona airport in daylight and felt 'uncomfortable' walking home in a few other cities. But never where I have lived in Asia.

[latintopxxx]

what a great topic, love the way everyone has contributed in a fairly impartial way without attacking others. Congratulations...must be the Christmas cheer. Personally I tend not to judge other counties/cultures...Im here as a visitor, its their country so its their rules...and if I dont like it I simply leave.
Classic example is working with Chinese suppliers...according to western norms they all cheat...but they call it buyer beware..its up to u the buyer to check every order.

[Pharang]

[QUOTE=arsenal;212563]Pharang wrote:

"Freedom is itself an abstract concept. In the US you can criticise the government but should not walk alone at night in many many places. In other countries it's the other way round. In quite a few ways countries with less 'freedoms' are actually providing their citizens with a more free way to live their day to day lives."

You're confusing the concept of political freedom with personal safety,inviting the absurd conclusion that prisoners held in solitary confinement are free. History suggests to some that societies that surrender freedom for order usually end up with less of both.

[arsenal]

Pharang wrote:
"You're confusing the concept of political freedom with personal safety,inviting the absurd conclusion that prisoners held in solitary confinement are free."

Personal safety in going about your daily life is freedom because if it's not safe to do something then you're not really free to do it. There are two freedoms and they are freedom from... and freedom to... and like it or not there is an inherent clash between them.

Pharang wrote:
" History suggests to some that societies that surrender freedom for order usually end up with less of both."

All societies surrender some freedom for order. It's simply a matter of how much. Otherwise it's not a society, it's back to Hobbes state of nature.

[fountainhall]

Classic example is working with Chinese suppliers...according to western norms they all cheat...but they call it buyer beware..its up to u the buyer to check every order.

It's an ancient Chinese custom - squeeze! It's how some Chinese became rich and others, especially in the days of the British and other foreign trading companies during the 19th century, accumulated unimaginable wealth. These compradors, the middle men who dealt with the foreigners and facilitated trade, despite getting paid only a moderate salary by the foreigners, took their commissions all along the line from their fellow Chinese. Some equate "squeeze" to corruption. Yet compradors were the bridge over which all trade flowed. In Chinese eyes their various sources of income were an obvious result of the provision of sophisticated services and guarantees. There is little evidence that the compradors were essentially dishonest.

One of the most famous was Sir Robert Ho Tung, a Eurasian who became head comprador for the British firm Jardine, Matheson & Co. (Mr. Jardine and Mr. Matheson having been largely responsible for persuading the British parliament of the need to go to war to enforce the sale of opium in China in the 1830s). In addition, he developed his own extensive commercial interests through the traditional Chinese way - his contacts, or guanxi. By the age of 35 he was estimated to be the richest man in Hong Kong. He was to finance the Xinghai Revolution which overthrew the Qing dynasty and facilitated the rise of Sun Yat-sen.

Ho Tung's descendants still live in Hong Kong where his children and grandchildren continued his tradition of philanthropy on a massive scale, especially in the areas of education and health. Hong Kong's squillionaires have always believed in the need to give back to their communities and their families' traditional villages and towns in China. I'm not sure present day Chinese squillionaires are so giving - other than to themselves!

[Manforallseasons]

All societies surrender some freedom for order. It's simply a matter of how much. Otherwise it's not a society, it's back to Hobbes state of nature.

A good example of this is the N.S.A.(national security agency) a U.S. agency that monitors info from people around the world from emails to phone calls in an attempt to thwart terror attacts and the U.S. hasn't had a major attack after 9/11 and yes there are issues of personnal freedoms that arise from this but again this is a trade off.